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Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source: creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 86078
Comments: 223

My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 116.

#1. To: CZ82 (#0)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

A K A Stone  posted on  2014-11-15   22:03:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A K A Stone (#1)

If you don't believe Genesis. Then what exactly would be the reason for Jesus? To redeem us from what?

There is an answer to your question, and I am willing to answer it for you.

There is a completely different way to read the Bible.

The traditional way, which came out of traditional Catholic and Orthodox thinking, itself came out of traditional Jewish thinking. After all, all 12 Apostles and Paul were Middle Eastern Jews, from the land of Israel and its environs, by birth and culture. Jesus was too, of course, but he is different because of who his Father was and the special knowledge and power he had.

The traditional way of seeing it saw the Christian Church as the continuation of the Jewish revelation. While this is certainly true, the key features of it where that the Apostles and the traditionalists did not simply valorize the revelations of God, but also the particular historical and cultural achievements of Israel. They understood God's plan of salvation in a certain way.

To follow the traditional thread of thinking, God made man, man fell, and this fall, this original sin, left an imprint of sin on the character of each man. Because of this sin, man could not attain heaven after death. In order to save man, eventually, God chose one people, the Hebrews, and gave them The Law. The Jews waxed and waned, and did not follow the law perfectly. So God sent Jesus to bring the whole world into salvation. Under the Jewish law, the blood of animals released sin, but could not completely release a man of all of his sins. But with Jesus, baptism wipes away original sin, and the blood of Christ's sacrifice is the final, perfect lamb of the Jewish sacrificial cycle, which takes away the sins of the whole world (and not just the Jews). So, through adoption, the world are all Messianic Jews. The reason for Jesus, under the traditional view, is to redeem us from our sins as laid out under the Jewish law. The assumption is that a perfect adherence to the Jewish Law would have led to salvation, but nobody could do it, and so Jesus was sent to do it for everybody.

That's the traditional view, and that view depends on the existence of Adam and Eve as literally described in order to establish the Original Sin that needs to be wiped away.

That's the traditional read and understanding. It's what Paul understood he was doing.

There is a very different way to read the same text. It too arrives at the necessity of Jesus, doing what Jesus did, with the ultimate net result, but which understands what happened along the way, and the role of the Jews in it, very differently.

It takes some time to write out, and engenders tremendous hostility among those who see things through the traditional lens, so I'm not too terrible eager to spend the time to write it out and then get beaten upon. Unfortunately the beatings will happen, because writing out what others believe without criticizing it leaves the impression that one advocates that, because people become furious at anything they perceive as a challenge to their traditional beliefs.

If you really want to understand how people of good faith and sincerity can think Jesus is vital to salvation without accepting the Adam and Eve or Flood stories as literal, I am willing to go ahead and write it out. But I'm not too eager to deal myself a crap sandwich, and that's what experience tells me I'm going to get if I start actually talking about these things.

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-17   11:12:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Vicomte13 (#5)

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Sure go for it. You are a man of honor.

But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above.

A K A Stone  posted on  2015-01-13   14:59:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#7)

So you tell me, do you really want to know the answer to your question? And are you willing to hear the answer without ripping my head off?

Sure go for it. You are a man of honor.

But if there was no Adam and Eve to bring sin into the world. What exactly would be the purpose of Jesus if Adam and Eve were made up. I know it is repetitive of the above.

Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   11:10:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Vicomte13, A K A Stone, Don, SOSO (#23)

Your question, and Don's, and SOSO's comment to me... I'm going to take the time to write a careful, comprehensive and clear answer.

Thanks, I believe that this will be a worhwhile endeavor for the interested.

May I suggest two therads be started: Why Genesis? and Just Genesis. The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man, the latter the biblical account of Genesis as historical fact and/or meaning. Obvioulsy both why and how of creation have an impact on how one views and accepts the teachings of the Bible. Frankly I expect that the former thread would have a very short existenace as the bottom line is no-one knows why God rolled up His sleves in a creation mode.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   17:54:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#27) (Edited)

May I suggest two therads be started: Why Genesis? and Just Genesis. The former addressing the question of why did God create the Heavens and Earth and Man, the latter the biblical account of Genesis as historical fact and/or meaning. Obvioulsy both why and how of creation have an impact on how one views and accepts the teachings of the Bible. Frankly I expect that the former thread would have a very short existenace as the bottom line is no-one knows why God rolled up His sleves in a creation mode.

I know why God filled up the sky and the land: because he wanted to.

There is nothing more to it than that. God does what he wants.

Why do YOU like, say, blue things? Because you do. You prefer it because you prefer it. So it is with God. God is God. He doesn't have a "reason" as such, that "causes" him to "have to" do something or aim at a result. He's God. He does what he does because it pleases him to do so - a painter on a blank canvas.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   21:38:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vicomte13 (#33)

I know why God filled up the sky and the land: because he wanted to.

There is nothing more to it than that. God does what he wants.

Well, OK then. God does as He jolly well pleases and we, His creations, can just run around arguing about not only what He did, or if He did, but why He did. It all makes perfect sense now. God does not need to communicate to us a purpose for our existence, and we shouldn't expect to have one, much less ask Him. Thanks for clearing that up.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   21:50:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: SOSO (#35)

Well, OK then. God does as He jolly well pleases and we, His creations, can just run around arguing about not only what He did, or if He did, but why He did. It all makes perfect sense now. God does not need to communicate to us a purpose for our existence, and we shouldn't expect to have one, much less ask Him. Thanks for clearing that up.

Well, that is the way it is. God is God. The Scriptures do record what God said - the rules he laid on us (there are not many). He's free, and he made us to rule over this place. And that's the extent of it. That's what we know, and that's all we know.

We can just make shit up and ascribe it to God, if we want to, but when we do that, it's not true.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   22:32:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Vicomte13 (#38)

We can just make shit up and ascribe it to God, if we want to, but when we do that, it's not true.

On this I totally agree. But its human nature to inquire, to want to know why. And isn't God that bestowed that nature upon us? At times it seems that He has a cruel sense of humor.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   22:39:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: SOSO (#39)

And this, ultimately is the question - not just for you but for every man who enters into such a discussion: are you really looking for answers - do you really want to know if there is tangible proof of God, and if it is said that there is, are you ready to look at the proffer scientifically with an unbiased mind?

If so, you can learn much.

Or are you a man who has in fact really already made up his mind, are certain that there's no such proof, that such proof cannot really exist, that anything shown as proof can and surely will be exploded by simply applying reason to it?

Are you already certain that no satisfactory answers to your questions exist, or ever will exist?

In other words, are your questions real questions that are truly searching for something, or are they rhetorical, leading questions whose answers you are already sure you know?

The answer to these questions of intent determine whether any conversation is worthwhile. This question is important from the perspective of someone like me, who might or might not be willing to expend the effort to try to answer the questions.

I am happy to bring my proofs to a real court, but it's a waste of time, worse than useless, to bring them before a kangaroo court.

I've been before many kangaroo courts, and usually see them constituted. And the men who sit on them who sit in pre-judgment of all that would be brought before them are dull and foolish and not worth my time.

Men with open minds who believe that maybe the questions CAN be answered, at least somewhat, and who are willing to find out: they are worth the time.

Me, personally, I had to start with the tangible proofs of God. Without the proofs, without the knowledge certain THAT God is, I could see no point in investing the time necessary to really try to understand what he had to say or wanted of me.

I am a man, and I give other men the courtesy of believing them to be exactly like me: wanting proof. I also give them the courtesy of believing them to be like me in being honest, at least with themselves, and earnestly seeking proof. I believe that any honest, intelligent, scientifically-educated man who studies the tangible proofs God left us will come face to face with the reality of the existence of God. And that changes the nature of scientific inquiry, because it removes many question marks.

It makes new questions important, such as: Ok, God IS, but WHO is he? And what does he WANT of me (if anything). The tangible artifacts answer the first question completely. But then the trail goes cold. Then you have only two choices: God tells you directly, or you have to read accounts of other people telling you what God said to them.

In the latter case, you have to compare what other men claim God said to them to the physical artifacts. If the claims of men contradict the physical proofs, then you have a choice to make: reject the physical proof that your own eyes can see, or reject the claims of men that contradict them.

Me? I follow the second course.

Then, if one has found a set of words that one believes contains words from God, one has to read and parse those words carefully, to see what they say and who they claim said what.

It's worth the effort if God is, and if God spoke that way. It's an utter waste of time if God isn't.

"Just believe that God is and go straight to the text" is an approach that works for some. Some of them are Christians. Some are Jews. Some are Muslims. Some are Hindus. Some are Bhuddists. They all contradict and they all have their books of words in which they believe, without anchoring in tangible proof.

But words are wind, and if they don't come from God, they come from man. So I myself, personally, have to start with the tangible proof.

Of course, I DIDN'T start with the tangible proof. In point of fact, my starting position was that no such tangible proof could possibly exist. I wasn't a skeptic, I was a cynic.

So where I actually started was with revelation: God grabbed my face and threw me around and spoke to me. And showed me things. And visited often. And so did demons. I saw the Dove. I saw the City. I was plunged into the black Abyss.

I found these experiences impressive, so I looked for tangible proofs to corroborate that I was in fact speaking with spirits and not just bat-shit crazy.

There is a lot of tangible proof left by God, all of it quite astounding and quite impossible. So, God is.

All of the tangible proof is Christian in nature. The informational content of the objects and artifacts are miraculous, and they present some Christian fact or simply are of Christians. If there were any counterexamples from any OTHER religion, there would be a competition of ideas, but there aren't. Every miraculous, science-defying artifact is Christian in content - every single one. I've identified about six dozen of them. The other religions have no entries in the game.

So, personal revelation is corroborated by miracle, and all of the miracles - all of the cornucopia of artifacts left by God - are Christian in nature. Therefore God is the God of Christ, and all of the other religions are false or incomplete. Therefore there's no point in studying anything but Christianity.

But there are 6000 squabbling, irritable Christianities, so maybe the answer is not to study Christianity, but to keep eyes focused on God.

Ok, so, the artifacts are Christian miracles from God - where in Christianity does God speak directly? In written Scripture, and in some claimed revelations of saints.

Since I've spoken to God, and what God and I spoke of is not Scripture, I know that God certainly DOES speak to people and perform miracles today, and did not stop doing so in the First Century. There's a made up tradition that says the opposite, but words are wind. I've experienced miracles, so arguments that God doesn't do that sort of thing anymore are lies. They're not just errors, because there was no basis for making the error: they are positively asserted lies by men seeking to privilege their particular power, gained by their learning.

It would be great for them if God were so easily contained. But he isn't, and he said not to lie, so actually they're in duck soup and considerable danger, because of their own stubborn and foolish insistence on the authority of stories they made up out of wholecloth.

Now then, proceeding on, God didn't say much to me, really. Lot's of repetition about specific points. The content of the artifacts says that God is, and Christ is divine. So what can we do? Well, we can look at the words of men who claim God spoke to them - both in the claims of saints since the First Century, and in the canonized claims of those from the First Century and before.

And there, we can find a set of words, attributed to God directly, about 8% of Scripture and a few more sentences from claims of saints, embedded in a whole lot more verbiage that may or may not be true.

The artifacts vouch for the God speaking in Scripture, so you look at what HE said DIRECTLY, first. Then you compare THOSE words to the rest of the words, and you find conflicts. You don't find conflict between God and himself, but there IS conflict between what God said directly, and what men said ABOUT God, both in Scripture and without.

And then you have to make a choice.

Well, me? I know God is, because I've spoken to him. And I know there's a Devil too - I've seen a demon. I know who God is from the artifacts. And I know what God said directly because it's recorded. So, THAT'S reliable. And then there's the rest of it. Where is agrees, that's good. Where it conflicts, well, there's a choice to be made, and 100% of the time I go with what God said directly, and I disregard or diminish in importance what some other man wrote that contradicts what God said directly out of his own mouth.

"Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God." - Jesus, speaking to Satan.

Seems pretty obvious, when you look at it all as a whole.

So, if I've got God saying that he sends good and evil, but I've got some Psalmist saying that God is only good and never does evil, well, the Psalmist is wrong. All Scripture may be God breathed, but it's not all of equal authority. And it's only the fact of the reality of God that gives Scripture authority in the first place. The lack of concrete tangible evidence for the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita leave them unsubstantiated, but when contrasted with the presence of such concrete tangible evidence for the Christian Gospel only, the relative presence and lack of evidence proves the truth of the Christian Gospel and the falsity of the rest.

That's how it all hangs together. We can talk about each piece, or not. It depends entirely on the mental attitude of the ones who wish to speak. If there is real interest and an open mind, then good. But if the interlocutor has a closed mind, Jesus said not to cast pearls before swine.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   23:24:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Vicomte13 (#43)

And this, ultimately is the question - not just for you but for every man who enters into such a discussion: are you really looking for answers - do you really want to know if there is tangible proof of God, and if it is said that there is, are you ready to look at the proffer scientifically with an unbiased mind?

I may be fooling myself but I believe that this is what I have been doing since I started religous instruction when I was about six years old or so. But when I was a child a spoke as one.....yadadayadadayada....you know the rest of the line.

"Seems pretty obvious, when you look at it all as a whole."

And that is exactly the place to whence I came well over 50 years ago. And I have tested that position over and over and over again with each input of new data or observation or instruction or experience and continue to come to the same point. That is why I still have an unabiding belief in God and not so much for any church or those men that claim to know His mind or speak for Him.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-14   23:32:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: SOSO (#45)

I may be fooling myself but I believe that this is what I have been doing since I started religous instruction when I was about six years old or so. But when I was a child a spoke as one.....yadadayadadayada....you know the rest of the line.

And that is exactly the place to whence I came well over 50 years ago. And I have tested that position over and over and over again with each input of new data or observation or instruction or experience and continue to come to the same point. That is why I still have an unabiding belief in God and not so much for any church or those men that claim to know His mind or speak for Him.

Well, then, good! That moves all the freight, and we can come down to the brass tacks.

We both know God is. We both know that the Father is God of all, and that Jesus is divine. We both know that Jesus told us that we have to follow him to be acceptable to the Father, and that to follow him we have to do what he said.

So, what did he say?

Well, we know that there's a cut, a judgment, and that some pass it and enter into the City of God, and others are left outside and/or thrown into the Lake of Fire.

We know that within the City there will be different distinctions, greater or lesser, based on what each person did or didn't do in life. Everybody who passes judgment gets a room, but everybody doesn't get a throne and a crown.

In this sense it's sort of like high school: those who graduate are going to go on to other things. The ones who did best will have the best colleges and jobs. The ones who did less well will have correspondingly dimmer prospects, but still be better off than the guy dying of malaria in a swamp in Bangladesh.

So, the first big cut, the dividing line, is what will cause you to fail judgment and be thrown into the fire.

Jesus gave a handy list, twice repeated on the last two pages of the Bible:

If you've killed people, committed adultery, or sexual immorality, or been abominable (which includes some other forms of sexual immorality), or been a liar, or an idolator, or a drug trafficker, or a coward, you're not going to pass judgement and are going to be thrown into the lake of fire UNLESS you're forgiven.

And what must you do to be forgiven? Well, some Christians say "Believe in Christ", but Christ said "What good does it do you to say you believe in me if you don't do as I say?" In other words, believing that Christ is the Son of God is not sufficient to be forgiven your sins. Who says? Christ says. Some men say otherwise. They're wrong. Once they've been show what Christ said, as here, if they persist anyway, they're peddling lies.

But what, then, did Christ say you have to do if you've committed any of those sins, to be forgiven them? He gave only one way: you have to forgive the sins and offenses that other men have done to you. That's it. That's all. Nothing more is required, but nothing less will do either. Christ said that if you forgive men their sins against you, God will forgive your sins against him, but that if you don't forgiven other men, then neither will God forgive you.

That's what Christ said, and he was the Son of God and the one who has to be followed, so whoever disagrees is wrong and should be silent and change himself to follow Christ.

And that is the whole religion, really. That is ultimately what you have to do to pass judgment. Beyond that, to enjoy high status in the City of God, well, for that you have to be an exemplar of Christ's virtues.

I think it's important to start with the most basic of basics: be baptized, eat bread and wine in remembrance of Jesus, don't commit any of those deadly sins, and if you have, then repent, ask forgiveness, and forgive other men all of their sins against you.

That's the whole thing. The rest is detail and opinion. Not much to it, when you get right down to it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-14   23:54:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#50)

And what must you do to be forgiven? Well, some Christians say "Believe in Christ", but Christ said "What good does it do you to say you believe in me if you don't do as I say?" In other words, believing that Christ is the Son of God is not sufficient to be forgiven your sins. Who says? Christ says. Some men say otherwise. They're wrong. Once they've been show what Christ said, as here, if they persist anyway, they're peddling lies.

But what, then, did Christ say you have to do if you've committed any of those sins, to be forgiven them? He gave only one way: you have to forgive the sins and offenses that other men have done to you. That's it. That's all. Nothing more is required, but nothing less will do either. Christ said that if you forgive men their sins against you, God will forgive your sins against him, but that if you don't forgiven other men, then neither will God forgive you.

That's the whole thing. The rest is detail and opinion. Not much to it, when you get right down to it.

Ah, but we both know that the devil is in the details.....don't we.

Wouldest your description of redemption be that simple. Perhaps God knows that it is and looks crossed eyed on those that don't see it that way. Man, through organized religions, has sure distorted things. I like your posit. It is clean. It is simple. It explodes the need for a Church and scores of versions of the Bible that each claim supremacy.

BTW, you left out a very important first step, namely faith and how one comes to it.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   11:29:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: SOSO (#51)

Wouldest your description of redemption be that simple. Perhaps God knows that it is and looks crossed eyed on those that don't see it that way. Man, through organized religions, has sure distorted things. I like your posit. It is clean. It is simple. It explodes the need for a Church and scores of versions of the Bible that each claim supremacy.

BTW, you left out a very important first step, namely faith and how one comes to it.

"Faith" can mean two things: TRUST in God, or mere BELIEF in God.

I went on and on about how one can come to strong BELIEF that God exists: through the physical, examinable artifacts, the concrete miracles left to that purpose.

Trust is an entirely different thing, though. After all, the Devil and all the demons KNOW God EXISTS, but they don't obey him.

Men certainly can know that God exists. I do in two ways: I've spoken with him, seen angels and demons and places and experienced dramatic physical miracles. There is no question in my mind that God exists. If there WERE a question in my mind, then it would be like questioning whether water exists, or gravity, or daylight. Direct experience is knowledge certain.

For the benefit of those who have not seen, touched and heard, I've gone and compiled the list of miracles that God left that can be forensically examined and seen to be physics-breakers. They're all clearly miraculous, and they're all Christian. So, with a basic scientific education and the time and inclination to study, anybody who has not seen God directly can have the proof of God's EXISTENCE right before his eyes. And not just his EXISTENCE, but his identity.

But that's as far as that goes. What God WANTS of you, well, unless he tells you directly and unmistakeably, that knowledge can only come through a combination of conscience, which is God's breath within, and learning.

Learning WHAT? Well, the only place one CAN look to see what the Christian God directly said is the Scriptures, so you have to look at THAT.

And then it's important to look at what GOD HIMSELF said, directly, in the Bible. About 8% of the words in the Scriptures are directly spoken by God, and THOSE words are quite consistent through the text. So, that's how you can know what God wants. That's where my "short list" was drawn.

But even if you know God is, know WHO God is, and know what God wants, you still have to trust that if you limit yourself in the important ways that God said, that you will reap the rewards he promises after death. That is faith: not belief, but trust.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   13:36:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Vicomte13 (#64)

Trust is an entirely different thing, though.

I have maintained that the nature of Man's original sin was not disobiebence but a lack of trust in God.

"Well, the only place one CAN look to see what the Christian God directly said is the Scriptures, so you have to look at THAT."

Which translation of which version of which interpretation of which translation is the one true Scripture?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   13:48:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: SOSO (#66)

Which translation of which version of which interpretation of which translation is the one true Scripture?

A translation is but an echo.

The Hebrew Dead Sea Scroll texts in Ivrit characters are the Hebrew Scriptures. To the extent that the texts are missing, then a comparison of the Hebrew Leningrad Codex with the Koine Greek Codex Vaticanus gives the rest of the Hebrew Scriptures.

A comparison of the Patriarchal Text and the Codex Vaticanus gives the best New Testament text.

The one is in ancient Hebrew. The other is in Koine Greek.

The best translation of both is the Vulgate Latin, because Jerome had access to massive amounts of ancient manuscript material lost to time, because the Church was not then divided in the way it has become since, because he was a genius, because Latin and Greek were both languages of the same milieu in the same culture, and because Jerome lived in the same Roman Empire as Jesus and the Jews had, with the same laws and cultural references and contexts, and he spoke Greek and Latin as a fluent native speaker.

So, he had manuscripts, and he was a native speaker of the Greek he was translating. He compared the Hebrew and the Greek and found the Hebrew HE was looking at to be more persuasive than the Greek.

Latin is even closer to us than Greek or Hebrew, but it's still a translation.

Truth be told, there are only about 20 words in Scripture upon whose definitions everything turns. If one translates those words wrong, if one mangles the concept being conveyed, then one will come to a decidedly different place from what was actually expressed.

Most English translations are reasonably good, if those key words are properly understood. When those words are misunderstood, then wildly different theologies emerge.

And the words that matter most are the 8% or so in there directly spoken by God himself, for "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God."

The words that proceeded forth out of the mouth of God are not many, but they give all the law, and they are the ones you absolutely have to focus on, or you can end up anywhere.

What God said in Scripture doesn't conflict, but what men say ABOUT what God said in Scripture often conflicts. Those conflicts are not resolvable by pitting men against men, but they ARE resolvable by going to the words that proceeded forth directly out of the mouth of God.

God said altogether less to men than men said ABOUT God to each other.

The stuff men said ABOUT God is inspiring and inspired, but it's not LAW. What God said directly: that (and only that) is law.

That is where your Hebrew, Greek, Latin and English studies need to focus, and most specifically on those 20 words.

Understand what "life" IS, and you understand what is at stake throughout. Miss that, and you're flailing around trying to figure out how all of those various purity laws of the Jews, so important for their society as God constituted it, apply to you and me...and unfortunately you've only God Jews like Paul and John and James and Peter to guide you on those matters, and they focus on them in ways that resolve problems within Judaism that Gentiles don't have in the first place.

The purpose should never be to find ways to quibble with fellow Christians, but rather, to discern just what precisely God said. And then do THAT.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   17:21:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Vicomte13 (#79)

Truth be told, there are only about 20 words in Scripture upon whose definitions everything turns. If one translates those words wrong, if one mangles the concept being conveyed, then one will come to a decidedly different place from what was actually expressed.

Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   17:42:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: SOSO (#82)

Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say?

No. God said what he said. That men wrote down a bunch of words all around it and that other men hold the different sources of authority as being equal, when they are not, is not sloppy of God at all.

GOD said "Man lives by every word that proceeds forth out of the mouth of God."

And what is more, when it comes to those few decisive words, God not only used the words, but the words are written in ancient Hebrew Ivrit PICTOGRAPHS, which don't just convey sound but meaning. So we can read the meaning, hearing the meaning and SEE the meaning corroborated by the pictures.

God didn't really say all that much - only 8% of Scripture, and if you eliminate all of the ritualistic stuff that God said to the Hebrews that don't apply to anybody, it drops to less than 1%. Usually things are repeated three or four times, so that distills down to about 0.25% of the words in the Scriptures.

If there are 2000 pages in the Bible, there are about 4 pages of original, directive law that apply to everybody, and just about everybody already knows that law anyway, because it's not just written on the pages - in triplicate or sextuplicate, but because it's written in everybody's conscience, as we are each a separate breath of God (breath is spirit).

None of this is meant to trivialize the wisdom of what is contained in the longer canon. Still, for somebody like you, who sees a welter of confusion and contradiction, I think it is important to realize these things:

(1) God left about 100 tangible objects that are miracles of physics, and that are clearly Christian in nature. And he left precisely 0 miraculous objects that are any other religion in nature, or secular in nature. So, through your physics, chemistry and biological training you CAN, if you are willing to apply the effort, come to a purely intellectual knowledge of the existence of God, and the divinity of Jesus. This is demonstrable by the physics and does not require a leap of belief beyond believing that our physics are largely accurate and useful, and that the data you have been given is not itself all tricked and hoaxy.

(2) With knowledge certain of God, and of the divinity of Christ, you can look at what it is recorded that God said - and you can see God saying in his own words to listen to HIS words. So then if you go through Scripture, you'll have about 160 pages. You'll see its repetitive and be able to distill it down to 4 applicable pages, in any translation.

(3) With those four pages, you can then delve into the Hebrew and Greek for the key words about which all meaning hangs: "God", "spirit", "life", "eternal", "good", "bad", "love", "law", "soul", "follow".

(4) After this exercise, you'll know the law, and you'll know that it's: Don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, don't commit sexual immorality (including adultery or other vile or abominable practices), don't lie, don't practice pharmakeia, don't serve idols, and don't be a coward. If you do those things, you'll be thrown into the fire and fail judgment. If you don't, you'll pass judgment. If you've done some of those things but follow Jesus by stopping doing them, and forgiving others their sins against you, God will forgive you. If you don't believe that Jesus is divine, you won't in fact stop doing the bad things or forgive, and you won't love, unless Jesus sends God's spirit to you anyway. In this way, it's Jesus who saves all whom he saves, regardless of the differences in their view of him.

(5) Life can be long, so practice loving living, in Christ's model, and you will have your reward from God in the City of God and in Paradise after death, and maybe on earth too.

And that's all there is to it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:19:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Vicomte13 (#92)

If there are 2000 pages in the Bible, there are about 4 pages of original, directive law that apply to everybody, and just about everybody already knows that law anyway, because it's not just written on the pages -

That's an awful lot of bloviating by the men the inked the Bible.

"Still, for somebody like you, who sees a welter of confusion and contradiction, I think it is important to realize these things:

The only confusion that I see is what has been put there by man, not God. You admit as much but take a lot more words to to it.

"Don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, don't commit sexual immorality (including adultery or other vile or abominable practices), don't lie, don't practice pharmakeia, don't serve idols, and don't be a coward. If you do those things, you'll be thrown into the fire and fail judgment.

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed. BTW, I had to look up the word pharmakeia:) Is aspirin included?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:55:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: SOSO (#101)

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things.

No shedding of blood, or eating living flesh, or serving idols. Probably many have met those conditions.

No sexual immorality? I doubt that there are any normal, healthy people who have not committed sexual immorality. So that's that, then. Without forgiveness by God, everybody but autistic vegetables and cripples gets thrown into the fire because all human beings are normal sexually immoral at some point.

No lying? That catches anybody who says he's never been sexually immoral.

Don't be a coward? Cowardice leads to lies and to the shedding of blood, so it's part of a process.

Aspirin is not pharmakeia: it doesn't significantly alter the mind. Coffee isn't either. Tobacco is bad for you, but it's not pharmakeia. Alcohol isn't, but it's in its own category - necessary for salvation (gotta drink the blood), but necessary to limit. I suppose it's like sex - with your wife: good. With every woman on the street, or with one donkey: bad. If you can't drive under its influence, it's probably pharmakeia. Of course, it's not simply use, it's use to alter the mind, let in the demons...or offering it for sale to do that. Still, it's a quibble. Dealing in death-dealing drugs will get you damned.

The prohibitions on sexual immorality and lying probably devour all of healthy humanity.

So, we're all doomed to death for our sins. And guess what - we all die! Crime...punishment.

THEN what? Well, that's the issue. Death CAN be the punishment that cuts it off: sentenced to death for sin and executed by God - for the wage of sin is death, but life of the spirit goes on, and you get another body someday...which promptly gets judged and killed AGAIN, unless you are forgiven the sin.

There is debate among men as to how. There shouldn't be, because Jesus SAID how. God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is). If you don't stop doing it, once you know you should (and we know we should from the beginning, because God gave us all a conscience), if you persist until death - prognosis not good.

Step 2 is: forgive other people. You're forgiven, by God, for your offenses against him, to the extent that you forgive others' offenses against you. The extent you refuse to do that, you're not forgiven either.

Also, we ought to remember that the status in the City of God of everybody who passes judgment is not the same. There are the least in "Heaven" (really the City). They're THERE, but they're the least. It's better than the lake of fire, but still...

Strive for better and you can have better. Or do the minimum and sweep the streets.

It's better than burning.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   19:27:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Vicomte13 (#109)

No sexual immorality? Without forgiveness by God, everybody but autistic vegetables and cripples gets thrown into the fire because all human beings are normal sexually immoral at some point

You forgot the repentence aspect of forgiveness. Most (I would hope) people of otherwise healthy morality and intergity, recognize the immorality of certain sexual acts and are truly regretful for their earthly, human weakness in their soul where God resides. The same is true about cowardice, be it physical or moral cowardice.

"God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is)."

Do you not see the inherent contraction, conflict with this statement and yours of "The prohibitions on sexual immorality and lying probably devour all of healthy humanity."

You are advocating a position that on one hand states that the God given nature of man is to sin (at least these two specific sins) and His requirement that we stop sinning period if we want to dance with Him in Heaven on the other hand. Please don't clap as that would be the irrestible force meeting the immovable object.

I remind you that God created man knowing fully well that Original Sin was just around the corner. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

Do you really believe that God will punish a man because He created the nature of man to succumb to sin and man cannot overcome that nature? It is one thing for man to "say, yeah, I know it's wrong but so what" and entirely another to say "yes, I know it's wrong and I will earnestly try to stop doing it". We all sin. Most of us are repentful but relapse. Many seek absolution and all of those wind up sinning again.

God cannot be that cruel as to set man against hinself in that manner and hold him accountable for it with an impossible condition to fulfill. The act of contrition IMO is enough even if the flesh is too week to keep it. As long as that earnest contrition is within a person IMO God will forgive. The honest striving is enough. Only God knows what is in a man's heart.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   21:25:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 116.

#122. To: SOSO (#116)

You forgot the repentence aspect of forgiveness.

Au contaire. I wrote: "God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is)."

"Repent" means "turn back", from sin - stop sinning. I didn't forget about repentance: I put it front and center.

When Jesus began his public ministry, the first thing he said was "Stop Sinning" ("Repent").

The other aspect of forgiveness, as Jesus himself preached it, was that human sins against God are forgiven if, and only if, and only to the extent, that humans forgive other humans their sins. "As you measure, so shall you be measured."

These were Jesus' main teachings on the subject: God will forgive your sins, but you need to stop doing it, and to the extent you have sins, you need to be forgiven. And to be forgiven, you have to forgive.

That's what Jesus said. He said it plain. He didn't give some other formula, so that's the formula. He said men are judged by their deeds, repent, stop sinning, and if you want to be forgiven, then forgive others: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Not much to argue with there: those are the commandments. It's not even particularly hard.

The answer to your question is stop sinning. And if you can't or don't, then be very forgiving.

You wrote about "Original Sin", but these words are not in Scripture.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15 22:51:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 116.

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