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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church?
Source: creation.com
URL Source: http://creation.com/my-pastor-doesnt-believe-in-genesis
Published: Nov 15, 2014
Author: creation.com
Post Date: 2014-11-15 19:23:45 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 86111
Comments: 223

My pastors don’t believe Genesis. Should I leave my church? Published: 15 November 2014 (GMT+10)

We received the following question from a supporter in Australia who was surprised to discover the pastors of his church did not believe Genesis. Tas Walker talks about some of the issues that need to be considered.

"Hi guys, I love your work, and have subscribed to the magazine and am continually encouraged by what you guys publish".

"I have a question. I’m at a church which I’ve attended for the last 12 years (I’m now 30). I’ve since realized that none of the 3 pastors take a straightforward reading of Genesis, and at least 2 of the 3 (haven’t yet checked the 3rd) don’t even believe the Flood was global. I was wondering if you had some advice on what I should do about this. I have 2 kids and 1 on the way and I want them growing up in a biblically sound church. Apart from Genesis our church is excellent. Do you think leaving the church is too drastic? Love to get your feedback, thanks heaps"!

Tas Walker replies:

Thank you for your question about being part of a church where the pastors do not accept Genesis as written. Unfortunately that is more common these days than it should be.

The decision as to which church you and your family should belong to depends on many different factors. Here are some issues for you to think and pray about.

There is no such thing as a perfect church. In some areas the church may be really good for you but in others it may be totally unhelpful. So you have to balance a lot of factors in your life.

There are usually good reasons in your life why you belong to the church you do, but churches change with time. E.g. sometimes the youth ministry is strong and other times it struggles. Your pastoral team will change and that will bring a different dynamic. So, perhaps by waiting you may see things improve.

Church is not just about what you can get out of it, but it is a place where you can minister to others with your gifts. Your passion and experience with creation may be one area where you can be a blessing to others.

In every church you will have to stand for and speak out the truth, and this can apply to many different issues. In this particular church the issue that you need to bring to others is the truth and foundation of Genesis. But speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way. Look at this as an opportunity to share some wonderful truth that otherwise would not be shared.

Rather than pushing creation in six days on people as if it is your hobby horse, use it to meet their needs as you become aware of them. Thus, you can present the truth to people along the following lines: “You may find this will help resolve some of your doubts and give you a firm foundation as you follow Christ.” I always take back issues of Creation magazine to church, as well as brochures and DVDs, which I freely give to people as the need arises.

Speak the truth in love, with tact and in a winsome way.

You may be influential in the thinking and life of your pastors. It’s important to love them and support them. Don’t be divisive or argumentative. Don’t be a one-issue person but show that you are interested in the wider ministry of the church and that your passion is to serve Jesus Christ and to help others come to Him and grow in Him. Here are two examples of how a person in the pews was pivotal in helping their minister come to the truth of Genesis: A young man in a church lent a book to his minister who was big enough to read the book and research the issue and who changed his mind (see Esa Hukkinen interview).

This pastor, Owen Butt, believed Genesis was myth but changed his mind after attending a creation meeting, and that changed his whole approach to ministry. What this article does not say is that it was one of his congregation who fed him information and invited him to the creation meeting, where his whole way of thinking was changed (See Catching the vision).

Make sure that your family is properly instructed in the truth of Genesis and creation by providing books, DVDs and other resources for them. Talk about the question and issues as they arise. However, note that it is really important to always speak in a positive way about your pastors and your church, especially with your children. If there is a critical spirit and an undermining of your pastors and your church in your home, that will poison things for your children.

If the situation becomes very difficult for you, with say the pastors instructing you not to talk about the issue you may need to think about moving. In the same way, you could not accept a ministry offer from the pastors if they included a condition that you could not talk about creation in that ministry or in the church. So if there is a hardening and aggressiveness develops toward your position, say from the pulpit, you may need to think about moving.

In our life’s entire journey it is important to seek the Lord and His will for our lives.

“If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.” James 1:5

God bless,

Tas Walker

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#94. To: Vicomte13 (#92)

Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say?

No. God said what he said. That men wrote down a bunch of words all around it and that other men hold the different sources of authority as being equal, when they are not, is not sloppy of God at all.

You mean those at the Council of Nicaea? Those men?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: All (#93)

I like free will
I think that is a great gift God gave us
I have made gazillion wrong choices for myself using my free will
But free will also gives us the freedom to change our mind
And I have changed my mind about so many things
Love Palo

Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   18:45:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: SOSO (#89)

IMO religion, churches just get in the way of the realtionship between God and Man.

And yet, it is organized religion that preserved the artifacts (for the Thomases who really need the physical proof), and it is organized religion that also preserved the words that God said and brought them down through the ages, and it is organized religion that has taught the basics to generation after generation.

Without organization we wouldn't have any of those things unless God preserved them all by more direct physics-bending miracles.

Now, I never spontaneously talk about what God and I talked about when I talked with God, but here, I will if only to clarify something. He and I did not discuss Jesus and angels or religion. We talked about physics. And the core lesson - the revelation - is that things are as they are, the physics work as they do, because God set them up the way he likes them. "I work on nature through nature" is what he said when I asked for probative miracles, and he grabbed ME and caused ME to directly do, with my hands, what it is I was demanding HE do. That I was not in control was clear, but he didn't use "force at a distance" - he possessed my flesh directly and made my flesh do what I had demanded in the normal way that I would otherwise were I not talking to God.

So, God has left physics defying miracles in order to provide the proof for the Thomases, but he hasn't left a ton of them, and he doesn't lightly go against his own opinion. He does it for a reason.

Jesus didn't set up a Bible dispensary. He set up a church, that passed down the essence by word of mouth. And although God COULD have done the miracles any way he choose, he chose to give the lesson of life after death by the most bloody and horrible death at the hands of the most powerful authorities: the Temple of the Jews and the spears of the Romans - using their full power to mete out death, by which they removed all those opposed. And then God brushed the death aside with life again - mocking the power of the religious court, the high priest, the executioner's nails and spears, the governor and the Roman Empire itself.

But he didn't keep on doing that over and over. He is sparing in his miracle- making.

So, COULD he have done without Churches and men and word-of-mouth and tradition, and held it all up by miracle? Of course. But he didn't. And perhaps he didn't because he made it such that to be rewarded with a good life after death you have to follow him, and he said that following him MEANT carrying out certain things, including carrying forth his message. He imposed the need to keep writing it and repeating it, and in the face of adversity too. You want to live forever? You want immortality? Imagine if a technology could be devised to give that - would it be available to all, or would it be jealously and violently guarded by the men who had possession of it? There is such a technology: it is called the Christian religion, and God makes it such that you cannot have the greatest prize: immortality, unless you do what you do not want to do, and TRUST him and follow him and do what he said. Do it, and you get the prize (before, it was do it, and you get a farm in Israel). Refuse to, or don't, and you also live, but it's not very nice.

Sort of like choosing to study, or not, in high school and college. Your choice. Consequences to follow...

Now then, God forced men to have to be the ones to carry forward the message, in written forms and through repeating it, and to guard the artifacts - and often at risk or pain to themselves.

And he said that COWARDS are thrown into the fire: if you want to keep your life, you will lose it, he said.

In other words: It's his way or the highway...to Hell.

Given that we're made in his image, we understand this perfectly well, for our own characters are not all that different. We get it. We just don't like it. So we kick at it.

I think that men such as you should start first with the basics: look at the physics of the physical artifacts. God left those to PROVE IT. Once proved, then you realize that "faith" doesn't mean "belief", it means TRUST.

You knew God was there before, and now you REALLY know it, for sure, because you can't escape the science of the artifacts. And now the dog's breakfast continues, because then you're faced with: alright, what do you WANT?

He might answer you directly. More probably he'll just point you towards something ELSE you don't want to do, which is to have to learn what he said from OTHER people.

Note that he made baptism a REQUIREMENT for passing final judgment and entering the City of God...and baptism can only be done TO you. You can't baptize yourself.

The fact that God made baptism a requirement for life in the City with him means that God forced every man to depend on another Christian person for his salvation, because a man cannot baptize himself.

So, Jesus FORCES every single man who wants to be saved to pass through one short, stupid ritual that can only be performed ON him by ANOTHER Christian, thereby making the salvation of every man dependent not just on God alone, but on another MAN being willing to give baptism.

It's a non-trivial requirement - that human salvation cannot be achieved without the direct agency of another human being. No man can save himself, for Jesus said that baptism was necessary, and even HE insisted that John the Baptist had to baptize him, demonstrating that Jesus Christ did not baptize himself. Now, would Jesus have been resurrected had no man baptized him?

Not according to Jesus himself.

God set things up to REQUIRE men to pass through at least one ritual of organized religion with another man. The man who is too proud to do that is damned.

Man requires God for salvation. But every man also requires another man for his salvation, for no man is saved without baptism, and even Jesus did not baptize himself.

Like it or not, SOME degree of organized religion is, in fact, absolutely necessary for the salvation of every man. Salvation requires the agency of another Christian human. No baptism, no eternal life.

It's repetitive, but guess what? God repeats most things three times in the Bible too, at least. Know why? Because human beings need to hear things three times to really retain them.

God is no fun. He likes things a certain way, and for men to have the prize, they have to submit to doing it his way.

If they won't, they piss him off, he kills them, raises them, and then they know, and then he throws them into the fire because he doesn't like them.

And why should he? He has left the hard proof. If men choose to be stubborn and lie and say he hasn't, that's their own damned fault.

And he's left the instructions of what not to do, and what to do, and they're not long. If men choose to be stubborn and blow him off, he's said what they've got coming.

And he carries things out just like that, because God likes his own opinion, and he's going to do it that way, and you (and I) are just not important enough to him for him to change his mind about anything.

We can stamp our feet all we like - we die anyway. We CAN live forever, but we have to CHOOSE to.

And truth is, mostly, the world doesn't WANT to be saved. So God gives them their wish, and they're not.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:46:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: SOSO (#94)

You mean those at the Council of Nicaea? Those men?

I was thinking of Paul and James, actually, but sure, the men of Nicaea also.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:47:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Liberator (#83)

Do we know what God expects of us? YES. He teaches love, kindness, honesty, honor -- all the virtues...and draws us nearer to Him (if we listen to Him more and less to our own narcissitic voice.)

Do we know His exact Plan for us individually, or exactly how our respective lives play out? NO.

I agree with you Liberator
I see it this way too
Love Palo

Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   18:48:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Palo Verde (#93)

Edgar Cayce, the great psychic, had prophesied back in the 1930s that by the year 2000 everyone would be in personal communication with God

Hi Palo! It has been a long time since I've seen you post. Hope you are well.

Everyone has an opportunity to communicate with God. Individuals can either take advantage or decline. I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline.

yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   18:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: SOSO, redleghunter (#89)

Just go to FR. There is a eucharist battle over there every day.

"When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   18:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Vicomte13 (#92)

If there are 2000 pages in the Bible, there are about 4 pages of original, directive law that apply to everybody, and just about everybody already knows that law anyway, because it's not just written on the pages -

That's an awful lot of bloviating by the men the inked the Bible.

"Still, for somebody like you, who sees a welter of confusion and contradiction, I think it is important to realize these things:

The only confusion that I see is what has been put there by man, not God. You admit as much but take a lot more words to to it.

"Don't shed human blood, don't eat living flesh, don't commit sexual immorality (including adultery or other vile or abominable practices), don't lie, don't practice pharmakeia, don't serve idols, and don't be a coward. If you do those things, you'll be thrown into the fire and fail judgment.

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed. BTW, I had to look up the word pharmakeia:) Is aspirin included?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:55:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Vicomte13, redleghunter (#100)

"When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss

With green eggs and ham no doubt.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   18:56:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: yukon, Palo Verde (#99)

I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline.

Perhaps it's because they don't like what He has to say about the choices they make in life?

Perhaps they believe they communicate better when they are high on drugs or booze and therefor substitute those for God?

Or perhaps it is becuase they believe that there is nothing greater than themself?

Just some random thoughts.

BTW, hello to both of you. It has been a long time since I have seen a post from either. Hope all is well.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:00:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: ALL (#0)

IS JESUS A LIAR?

When we turn to the teachings of Jesus recorded in the Gospels, we find a wealth of relevant material in all four Gospels and in the four major strata of the synoptic Gospels (Mark; the material peculiar to Matthew; the material peculiar to Luke; and the material common to Matthew and Luke, usually called "Q"). We are not confined to a few key statements but have a host of quotations and allusions that appear in a great variety of situations. These accounts are often the more telling since they reveal Jesus' basic assumptions more than His specific teachings. We can hear Christ preaching to the multitudes and instructing disciples, refuting opponents and answering enquirers. We can hear Him in His private conflict with the tempter at the beginning of His ministry and in His final instructions prior to the Ascension. As we proceed, it will become clear that, throughout the Gospel material, Jesus' view of the Old Testament is un-changing. We will examine, in turn, His views of the truth of its history, the authority of its teaching, and the inspiration of its writing. As the evidence is assembled, it will lead us to a firm and objective conclusion. We will see that Christ held the Old Testament to be historically true, completely authoritative, and divinely inspired. To Him, the God of the Old Testament was the living God, and the teaching of the Old Testament was the teaching of the living God. To Him, what Scripture said, God said.

Jesus consistently treats Old Testament historical narratives as straightforward records of fact. He refers to Abel (Luke 11:51), Noah (Matt. 24:37-39; Luke 17:26, 27), Abraham (John 8:56), the institution of circumcision (John 7:22; cf. Gen. 17:10-12; Lev. 12:3), Sodom and Gomorrah (Matt. 10:15; 11:23, 24; Luke 10:12), Lot (Luke 17:28-32), Isaac and Jacob (Matt. 8:11; Luke 13:28), manna (John 6:31, 49, 58), the snake in the desert (John 3: 14), David eating the consecrated bread (Matt. 12:3, 4; Mark 2:25, 26; Luke 6:3, 4), David as a psalm writer (Matt. 22:43; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:42), Solomon (Matt. 6:29; 12:42; Luke 11:31; 12:27), Elijah (Luke 4:25, 26), Elisha (Luke 4:27), Jonah (Matt. 12:39-41; Luke 11:29, 30, 32), and Zechariah (Luke 11:51). The last passage brings out Jesus' sense of the unity of history and His grasp of its wide sweep. His eye surveys the whole course of history from "the creation of the world" to "this generation." He repeatedly refers to Moses as the giver of the Law (Matt. 8:4; 19:8; Mark 1:44; 7:10; 10:5; 12:26; Luke 5:14; 20:37; John 5:46; 7:19). He frequently mentions the sufferings of the true prophets (Matt. 5:12; 13:57; 21:34-36; 23:29-37; Mark 6:4 [cf. Luke 4:24; John 4:44]; 12:2-5; Luke 6:23; 11:47-51; 13:34; 20:10-12) and comments on the popularity of the false prophets (Luke 6:26). He sets the stamp of His approval on such significant passages as Genesis 1 and 2 (Matt. 19:4, 5; Mark 10:6-8).

These quotations are taken by our Lord more or less at random from different parts of the Old Testament, and some periods of its history are covered more fully than others. Yet it is evident that He was familiar with most, if not all, of the Old Testament and that He treated all parts of it equally as history.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: SOSO (#103)

perhaps it is becuase they believe that there is nothing greater than themself?

I believe you could be on to something with that observation.

Hello to you. I'm assuming we have crossed paths previously. Hope all is well with you.

yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   19:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: GarySpFC (#104)

So the Earth really is a few thousand years old?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: yukon (#105)

I'm assuming we have crossed paths previously.

We have on LP.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   19:07:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: SOSO (#106)

So the Earth really is a few thousand years old?

Where did Jesus say that?

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: SOSO (#101)

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things.

No shedding of blood, or eating living flesh, or serving idols. Probably many have met those conditions.

No sexual immorality? I doubt that there are any normal, healthy people who have not committed sexual immorality. So that's that, then. Without forgiveness by God, everybody but autistic vegetables and cripples gets thrown into the fire because all human beings are normal sexually immoral at some point.

No lying? That catches anybody who says he's never been sexually immoral.

Don't be a coward? Cowardice leads to lies and to the shedding of blood, so it's part of a process.

Aspirin is not pharmakeia: it doesn't significantly alter the mind. Coffee isn't either. Tobacco is bad for you, but it's not pharmakeia. Alcohol isn't, but it's in its own category - necessary for salvation (gotta drink the blood), but necessary to limit. I suppose it's like sex - with your wife: good. With every woman on the street, or with one donkey: bad. If you can't drive under its influence, it's probably pharmakeia. Of course, it's not simply use, it's use to alter the mind, let in the demons...or offering it for sale to do that. Still, it's a quibble. Dealing in death-dealing drugs will get you damned.

The prohibitions on sexual immorality and lying probably devour all of healthy humanity.

So, we're all doomed to death for our sins. And guess what - we all die! Crime...punishment.

THEN what? Well, that's the issue. Death CAN be the punishment that cuts it off: sentenced to death for sin and executed by God - for the wage of sin is death, but life of the spirit goes on, and you get another body someday...which promptly gets judged and killed AGAIN, unless you are forgiven the sin.

There is debate among men as to how. There shouldn't be, because Jesus SAID how. God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is). If you don't stop doing it, once you know you should (and we know we should from the beginning, because God gave us all a conscience), if you persist until death - prognosis not good.

Step 2 is: forgive other people. You're forgiven, by God, for your offenses against him, to the extent that you forgive others' offenses against you. The extent you refuse to do that, you're not forgiven either.

Also, we ought to remember that the status in the City of God of everybody who passes judgment is not the same. There are the least in "Heaven" (really the City). They're THERE, but they're the least. It's better than the lake of fire, but still...

Strive for better and you can have better. Or do the minimum and sweep the streets.

It's better than burning.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   19:27:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: GarySpFC (#104)

Hello Gary. Happy New Year. Good to see you here.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   19:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: yukon (#99)

Hi Palo! It has been a long time since I've seen you post. Hope you are well.

Everyone has an opportunity to communicate with God. Individuals can either take advantage or decline. I've never been able to comprehend why anyone would decline.

Hi Yukon
I am happy to see you
I was an atheist till my early 40s when my life hit bottom
LOL at the end of my rope I called out for help from God
(nothing else had worked)
Then my next crisis was a few years later, when vet pronounced death sentence on my beloved dog
(she was my first dog)
First I turned to God for help, then to Jesus
I was able to hear both God and Jesus talking to me in my mind
Loving me, comforting me, reassuring me
Even tho my beloved dog did go to Heaven 4 months later
I wasn't willing to give up all that love and help
But I only called upon Jesus and God when I was having a terrible crisis
The next 4 years brought so many crises into my life that I had a chance to call on them many times
After that I decided to stay in personal communication with Jesus and God even when things were fine
LOL but I only stayed in communication 24/7 when another crisis hit
I guess that help is always available to all
It is up to each individual how much they want it?
LOL I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help
I love you
Palo

Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   19:29:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Vicomte13 (#110)

Hello Gary. Happy New Year. Good to see you here.

Likewise.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Palo Verde (#111)

I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help

All of us do, but few of us willingly admit it. Apparently you and I have traversed some of the same rough waters. God bless you.

yukon  posted on  2015-01-15   19:36:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: yukon (#113)

(Palo) I guess I'm a gal who needs a lot of help
(Yukon)... Apparently you and I have traversed some of the same rough waters. God bless you.

Thank you my darling
God bless you too
It is a miracle you and I are talking to each other on a forum again
I haven't been on a forum in 5 years
But it hit me hard when LP shut down
And TC instantly invited me over here
And I am very happy here now
Love and kisses, Palo

Palo Verde  posted on  2015-01-15   19:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: SOSO (#19)

I totally concur. Mortal Man can never undrestand the Mind of God, much less the nature of the Infinite. That is why every version, every interpretation of the Bible is flawed. The very essence of language is a man made concept. God doesn't need language. In fact if you liereally believe the Bible, God created different languages to confound Man long before any Christian Bible was ever put into writting.

If man cannot understand God, then accordingly His sending Christ to die on that old rugged cross was without purpose.

If language is a man made concept, then God does not think.

“Let no one mourn that he has fallen again and again; for forgiveness has risen, from the grave.” John Chrysostom www.evidenceforJesusChrist.org/Bible

GarySpFC  posted on  2015-01-15   19:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Vicomte13 (#109)

No sexual immorality? Without forgiveness by God, everybody but autistic vegetables and cripples gets thrown into the fire because all human beings are normal sexually immoral at some point

You forgot the repentence aspect of forgiveness. Most (I would hope) people of otherwise healthy morality and intergity, recognize the immorality of certain sexual acts and are truly regretful for their earthly, human weakness in their soul where God resides. The same is true about cowardice, be it physical or moral cowardice.

"God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is)."

Do you not see the inherent contraction, conflict with this statement and yours of "The prohibitions on sexual immorality and lying probably devour all of healthy humanity."

You are advocating a position that on one hand states that the God given nature of man is to sin (at least these two specific sins) and His requirement that we stop sinning period if we want to dance with Him in Heaven on the other hand. Please don't clap as that would be the irrestible force meeting the immovable object.

I remind you that God created man knowing fully well that Original Sin was just around the corner. Talk about a self fulfilling prophecy.

Do you really believe that God will punish a man because He created the nature of man to succumb to sin and man cannot overcome that nature? It is one thing for man to "say, yeah, I know it's wrong but so what" and entirely another to say "yes, I know it's wrong and I will earnestly try to stop doing it". We all sin. Most of us are repentful but relapse. Many seek absolution and all of those wind up sinning again.

God cannot be that cruel as to set man against hinself in that manner and hold him accountable for it with an impossible condition to fulfill. The act of contrition IMO is enough even if the flesh is too week to keep it. As long as that earnest contrition is within a person IMO God will forgive. The honest striving is enough. Only God knows what is in a man's heart.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   21:25:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: GarySpFC (#115)

If man cannot understand God, then accordingly His sending Christ to die on that old rugged cross was without purpose.

That does not follow. God created man with certain attributes, not the least of which is supposedly being in God's image. Adam certainly had the capacity for understanding the things God communicated to him The text of Gensis is repleate with consversational exchanges between God and Adam and Eve. They didn't get it right the first time. Jesus represents a second chane for man. There is no assure that man will get it right the second time around.

"If language is a man made concept, then God does not think."

He probably doesn't in the manner we humans ascribe to thinking. Do you honestly believe that God spoke to Adam and Adam responded to God in a language as we understand that term to mean? If so, what language might that have been and why would it have been lost to humanity?

Now I understand the contradiction in my contention as represented by the story of Babel. There God seemingly did create languages to confound man, to keep man from communicating with each other. It may very well be that God intended language to continue to confound man by preventing perfect communications among people. Who knows for sure?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   21:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: GarySpFC (#108)

So the Earth really is a few thousand years old?

Where did Jesus say that?

SOme Chrisyians firmly believe that this is manifest in the literal interpretaion of the Old Testament. You stated that Jesus codified the Old Testamebnt as historical fact. If He did then those who lierally interperate the Old Testament can claim that Jesus supports their position.

But that is not the point that is was trying to making?

So I will ask ago, is the Earth really just a few thousand years old as the Old Testament leads some to conclude?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   21:41:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Palo Verde (#111)

I was an atheist till my early 40s when my life hit bottom
LOL at the end of my rope I called out for help from God
(nothing else had worked)
Then my next crisis was a few years later, when vet pronounced death sentence
on my beloved dog
(she was my first dog) First I turned to God for help, then to Jesus
I was able to hear both God and Jesus talking to me in my mind
Loving me, comforting me, reassuring me

Wow...AWESOME testimony, Annie! So without these trying times and tribulation you may not have ever called on the name of "Jesus!"

So very nice to see you and read your story. You've always lent much needed a gentle, moderating quality to the forums. Missed ya...

Lib

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   21:53:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: SOSO (#81)

Did Paul preach transubstantiation? Did he preach the infallibility of the Pope? Did he teach that Gensis was to be taken literally as historical fact? Do I need to go on?

You can go on but with every key stroke show you have not examined the Scriptures for yourself.

Here's more:

Acts 17:

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.(KJV)

More:

2 Timothy 3:

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.(KJV)

Examine the Scriptures SOSO.

No punting here. It's all there open for examination.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   22:46:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: SOSO (#82)

Awfully sloppy of God, wouldn't you say?

How so?

John 14:

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   22:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: SOSO (#116)

You forgot the repentence aspect of forgiveness.

Au contaire. I wrote: "God's forgiving, but step one is STOP DOING IT (whatever IT is)."

"Repent" means "turn back", from sin - stop sinning. I didn't forget about repentance: I put it front and center.

When Jesus began his public ministry, the first thing he said was "Stop Sinning" ("Repent").

The other aspect of forgiveness, as Jesus himself preached it, was that human sins against God are forgiven if, and only if, and only to the extent, that humans forgive other humans their sins. "As you measure, so shall you be measured."

These were Jesus' main teachings on the subject: God will forgive your sins, but you need to stop doing it, and to the extent you have sins, you need to be forgiven. And to be forgiven, you have to forgive.

That's what Jesus said. He said it plain. He didn't give some other formula, so that's the formula. He said men are judged by their deeds, repent, stop sinning, and if you want to be forgiven, then forgive others: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

Not much to argue with there: those are the commandments. It's not even particularly hard.

The answer to your question is stop sinning. And if you can't or don't, then be very forgiving.

You wrote about "Original Sin", but these words are not in Scripture.

Vicomte13  posted on  2015-01-15   22:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: yukon (#85)

Hey Yukon.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   22:52:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Vicomte13 (#122)

You wrote about "Original Sin", but these words are not in Scripture.

But the act is amply described, as is the consequences to Adam and Eve and their progeny. A rose by any other name my friend.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:03:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: SOSO (#89)

I am much more persuaded by the notion of one knowing God and Jesus through their heart, through the gift of faith bestowed upon us by God Himself as opposed to knowing Him solely through Scripture.

What you posted above is evidenced in Scriptures.

Just have to flip to 1 Corinthians 13:

1 Corinthians 13 King James Version (KJV)

13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:03:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: SOSO, liberator (#89)

IMO religion, churches just get in the way of the realtionship between God and Man. We do not need a flawed human institution to act as a middleman. I have enough personal flaws to satisfy that condition. And we don't need a made made channel to Him to realize what He already made available to us at birth.

I do not criticize those that feel that they need a helping hand to realize their relationship with God. To the extent that Churches do that all well and good. I just remind you that we are redeemed individually, one soul at a time not as a commuinty where it is all in or all out.

I have to say you make a good point. The NT example of the assembly or church, or called out ones, was to gather to share the Lord's Supper, praise God, teach His written Word. It was a loving community, gathering fellowship of the Body of Christ, His church His called out ones.

They read from scrolls and codexes, those who could not read listened. They shared as a body. The elders/bishops were shepherds of the flock, not bedecked in gold and satin with a mitre. The elders (plural) reproved, corrected and disciplined according to the Scriptures they had (OT) and sermons of the apostles and also epistles written down. Like good Bereans when conflicts arose they went to the well of Scriptures. We see this in the early church father's writings.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: redleghunter (#125)

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.(KJV)

I thought it was love?

New International Version - And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

New Living Translation - Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.

English Standard Version - So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

New American Standard Bible - But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

King James Bible - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Holman Christian Standard Bible - Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

International Standard Version - Right now three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

NET Bible - And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English - For there are these three things that endure: Faith, Hope and Love, but the greatest of these is Love.

GOD'S WORD® Translation - So these three things remain: faith, hope, and love. But the best one of these is love.

Jubilee Bible 2000 - And now abide faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

King James 2000 Bible - And now abides faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

American King James Version - And now stays faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

American Standard Version - But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Douay-Rheims Bible - And now there remain faith, hope, and charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity.

Darby Bible Translation - And now abide faith, hope, love; these three things; and the greater of these [is] love.

English Revised Version - But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Webster's Bible Translation - And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Weymouth New Testament - And so there remain Faith, Hope, Love--these three; and of these the greatest is Love.

World English Bible - But now faith, hope, and love remain--these three. The greatest of these is love.

Young's Literal Translation - and now there doth remain faith, hope, love -- these three; and the greatest of these is love.

Yep, love over charity 16-5. But among the three King James versions it charity over love by 2-1.

I trust the point isn't lost on you.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: SOSO, liberator (#91)

I would almost universally agree with that. There still are those true moral delimenas in which we as mortal men must make a choice between two conflicing moral actions, aka as the lesser of evils. IMO that is why God has endowed man with both free will and a conscience. Men seem to be willing to more freely exercise the former over the latter. Humans can rationalize just about anything if they turn down the volume of that inner Godly voice.

Well yes. God created us with a brain housing group between our ears. He expects us to use that brain, to employ some logic in our decisions. Just think of some old toolie engineer not using his brain. Disaster!

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

If we who call on the Name of Jesus Christ address our actions in such a way then we can avoid the majority of the stupid things we do trying to rationalize stuff.

With that logical brain we have a conscience.

But again, God has some work He does first.

Ezekiel 36:

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.(KJV)

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:24:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Palo Verde (#93)

Hi Palo. This bunch (me included) is just getting warmed up:)

However I have to say this is the most cordial exchange I've seen in some time.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:28:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: redleghunter, liberator (#128)

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

That's fine when one or the other choice may bring glory to God. Unfortunately this falls apart when both choices do not bring glory to God as each will offend some of His expectations of us in one way or another.

Of course the overarching question is what man determines what God considers to be glorious to being with any degree of certainty?

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Vicomte13 (#100)

When a fox is in the bottle where the tweetle beetles battle with their paddles in a puddle on a noodle-eating poodle. THIS is what they call... ...a tweetle beetle noodle poodle bottle paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled fox in socks, sir!" - Seuss

Yep pretty much sums it up. You can leave the religion forum there for years and come back and its the same stuff.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:31:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: redleghunter, SOSO (#128)

Well yes. God created us with a brain housing group between our ears. He expects us to use that brain, to employ some logic in our decisions. Just think of some old toolie engineer not using his brain. Disaster!

I think the correct and logical approach to the moral dilemma you pose can easily be addressed with the following:

"Is what I am doing or thinking about doing bring glory to God?"

If we who call on the Name of Jesus Christ address our actions in such a way then we can avoid the majority of the stupid things we do trying to rationalize stuff.

With that logical brain we have a conscience.

I also can see SOSO point on some slightly ambiguous confusion. Which "coaching staff" is right about the playbook?

Using a football analogy, charting X's and O's on the chaulkboard mean less than executing the play in the field, and adjusting accordingly to the defense. The clinical play design doesn't take into account the heart and will of the player overcome the wind, bad footing, or a bad day.

Liberator  posted on  2015-01-15   23:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: SOSO (#101)

So Ghandi is in Heaven as is every good orthodox Rabbi and every good person that has not done those things. Great, that's what I always believed. BTW, I had to look up the word pharmakeia:) Is aspirin included?

I guess the question would be did Ghandi and the orthodox Rabbi come to Jesus Christ for salvation. Did they trust in the finished Work of Christ's death and resurrection?

John 11:25King James Version (KJV)

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)

redleghunter  posted on  2015-01-15   23:39:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Liberator, redleghunter (#132)

Using a football analogy, charting X's and O's on the chaulkboard mean less than executing the play in the field, and adjusting accordingly to the defense. The clinical play design doesn't take into account the heart and will of the player overcome the wind, bad footing, or a bad day.

Or calling the right play at the right time.

SOSO  posted on  2015-01-15   23:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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