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Creationism/Evolution
See other Creationism/Evolution Articles

Title: Pope Francis says Big Bang theory and evolution 'compatible with divine Creator'
Source: telegraph.co.uk
URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor ... tible-with-divine-Creator.html
Published: Oct 28, 2014
Author: By Nick Squires
Post Date: 2014-10-28 13:42:04 by Ferret Mike
Keywords: None
Views: 61899
Comments: 132

Theory universe born in cosmic explosion 13.7 billion years ago 'doesn't contradict' divine Creator but 'demands it', says pontiff

The theory of the Big Bang is compatible with the Catholic Church's teaching on creation and belief in both is possible, Pope Francis has said. The Pope insisted that God was responsible for the Big Bang, from which all life then evolved.

The Big Bang - the theory that the universe was born in a cosmic explosion about 13.7 billion years ago and has expanded and evolved since - "doesn't contradict the intervention of a divine Creator, but demands it," the Pope said.

The beginning of the world was not "the work of chaos" but part of a divine plan by the Creator, he said.

The Jesuit Pope made the remarks during an address to a meeting of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which gathered at the Vatican to discuss "Evolving Concepts of Nature".

"Evolution in nature is not inconsistent with the notion of creation, because evolution requires the creation of beings that evolve," he told the meeting.

God should not be regarded as some sort of "magician", waving a magic wand, he said.

"When we read about creation in Genesis, we run the risk of imagining God was a magician, with a magic wand able to do everything. But that is not so," he said.

"He created human beings and let them develop according to the internal laws that He gave to each one so they would reach fulfilment." The Pope's remarks were in line with Catholic Church teaching of the last few decades.

As far back as 1950, Pope Pius XII said that there was no intrinsic conflict between Catholic doctrine and the theory of evolution, provided that Catholics believed that the human soul was created by God and not the result of random evolutionary forces.

That stance was affirmed in 1996 by Pope John Paul II.

"The Pope's declaration is significant," said Giovanni Bignami, the president of Italy's National Institute for Astrophysics.

"We are the descendants of the Big Bang, which created the universe. You just have to think that in our blood we have a few litres of hydrogen, which was created by the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago.

"Our blood is red because it contains iron, which was created by the explosion of a star millions and millions of years ago. Out of creation came evolution."

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 106.

#48. To: (#0)

This isn't really NEW. The Church's position regarding evolution has been that it isn't incompatible with Catholic faith as long as one acknowledges the ultimate creator, and that man originally sinned.

In the frontspiece to my 1978 edition of the New American Bible was an essay that included the language "No well educated person any longer disputes that man has descended from primates" and that we are to understand Genesis 1 as an allegory.

Being a scientist by training and mindset, I found that position to be good: it made it possible for me to BE a Christian at all, of the Catholic variety.

It is only with direct encounters with the divine that my eyes were opened to the rather more radical reality of God not as simply the organizing principle of the universe, but as a thinking person, and angels (and demons) as real beings. THAT provoked a complete rethink on my part, but nothing SHORT OF that would have ever done it, at least not for me.

Obviously Pope Francis has never spoken directly with God or has his face grabbed by angels and such.

(I also note that later editions of the NAB have significantly toned down that rather obnoxious and dismissive language in the frontspiece, and not longer suggests that people like me, who have come to realize that Genesis 1 is a whole lot more than a poem or an allegory, am not well-educated.)

Catholic schools have taught basic evolution, not creationism, in science class for decades. The caveat (I didn't go to Catholic school, but had a Catholic biology prof) was simple: after going through evolution, and going through the medieval belief in spontaneous generation and demonstrating how spontaneous generation has been disproven and discarded, the prof made the simple point that spontaneous generation had been discarded as the basis of life...except at the origin of life.

Well, having just seen all the reasons why spontaneous generation was not viable - to then have all of life itself suddenly hang upon spontaneous generation is obviously not intellectually viable either, especially when one considers that decaying meat and plantlife already have all of the amino acids for life already pre-formed in them, so even with all of the elements for life RIGHT THERE, life still doesn't spontaneously generate from dead things. To have it spontaneously generate, then, from disorganized atoms - well, THAT'S a beaut.

What Pope Francis said isn't anything new. And maybe it will bring eyes like mine were to focus on the Church and find out they can walk with THIS form of Christianity.

Unfortunately, evolution isn't TRUE, so unless God reaches down and grabs THEIR faces too, I don't know how the step to the actual TRUTH of the matter is closed. But I don't think it really ultimately matters either. Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test.

And it isn't as though the Christian creationists are perfectly right in their theories either. THEY don't read the verb tenses of Creation right. Stuff wasn't CREATED on day X, it BEGAN TO BE created, on day X, and that's a key difference. (And it wasn't actually CREATED on any of those days, it was made substantial. FIRST it was created in the head of the Elohiym, then it began to be unfolded in 3D. That's really what Genesis 1 SAYS, but you cannot see that unless you leave off English and read the Hebrew and the ancient pictographs. So, truth be told, EVERYBODY fighting about evolution, on ALL sides, is wrong in some pretty fundamental things. The secularists are wrong: life didn't spontaneously generate. And the creationsts are wrong about the exact timeline. The Catholics are wrong: it's not an allegory or a poem on creation. The right answer: God made it all, on a staccato timeline (that is written into Genesis, but the key question of animal life (which is really the issue): THAT was brought forth quickly, in a couple of days. The piece most scientists are missing is the slowing of the speed of light. Once that is factored into the Standard Theory, there is a lot less time, and without the time, evolution as understood naturalistically simply couldn't happen. But just TRY to have a reasonable talk to correct the record with ANYBODY - Protestant, Catholic, Atheist...what one believes about origins is what one believes about science, and that is probably the central contention in religion today. Science is the "indulgences" of old.

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01   9:54:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Vicomte13 (#48)

Final judgment is not a science test but a morals and deeds test.

More than that for sure.

Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins? I presume our Father's specs will slide down his nose, he'll bite his lip as He peruses our Life File -- despite noting high scores on Tests #2 and #3.

Liberator  posted on  2014-11-01   15:29:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Liberator (#53)

Test #1: Did we ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins?

But Scripture does not actually SAY that. What it SAYS is that none come to the Father except through Jesus. That's true. But that does not mean that one must "ask for and accept the blood of Jesus Christ as ransom for our sins". That is the interpretation supplied by human tradition. And it's not quite right.

Look at the last page of Scripture, where Jesus himself, enthroned in Heaven, says that men will be judged by their DEEDS, and then lists the deeds that will earn a trip to the lake of fire.

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01   16:34:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Vicomte13 (#58)

says that men will be judged by their DEEDS

Yes. The ones not saved.

A K A Stone  posted on  2014-11-01   21:13:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: A K A Stone (#84) (Edited)

Yes. The ones not saved.

Read Revelation again and look at whom Jesus was warning. It was a letter addressed to the CHURCHES. The recipients of this letter, being told by Jesus they would be judged by their deeds, where all Christians and Christian Churches.

Christians are judged by the deeds, and the standards that Christ set are high, that is true. And Christ set the standard, too, when men fall short. He did not say that it was all covered by his death, not at all. Rather, he said that if YOU want to be forgiven by God for the sins YOU have committed against HIM, YOU have to forgive other men the sins they commit against you. The Lord's prayer itself establishes this standard, and we're always asking God to apply it: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

There is a strain of theology that essentially sets everything Jesus said aside and says that it's all about the blood. It's an interesting theory, but it isn't based on what Christ SAID, and after all, HE was God, not the Christian theologians. So I'll stick with Christ on this one: what you do matters, there's a (short) list of "Don't dos". Once you find Christ and are baptized, your past sins are indeed completely washed away. But if you commit new sins after that, then you've got to ask God for forgiveness, and he will forgive you TO THE EXTENT THAT you forgive other men their sins. We ask for this very standard every time we say the Lord's prayer, so if we don't really MEAN "Lord, forgive me my sins against you to the extent that I forgive the sins of other men against me", then we should stop saying it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-01   21:38:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Vicomte13 (#86) (Edited)

Christians are judged by the deeds, and the standards that Christ set are high, that is true. And Christ set the standard, too, when men fall short.

As you readily concede, it can be said that the standard is SO high that ALL men fall short.

"He did not say that it was all covered by his death, not at all."

Revelation 21…5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true." 6Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7"He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.…

We note a promise. "It is done" (indicated by Jesus redemptive blood.) And the "water of life" for those who are faithful in accepting His Sacrifice and Grace.

There is a strain of theology that essentially sets everything Jesus said aside and says that it's all about the blood. It's an interesting theory, but it isn't based on what Christ SAID, and after all, HE was God, not the Christian theologians. So I'll stick with Christ on this one: what you do matters, there's a (short) list of "Don't dos". Once you find Christ and are baptized, your past sins are indeed completely washed away. But if you commit new sins after that, then you've got to ask God for forgiveness, and he will forgive you TO THE EXTENT THAT you forgive other men their sins.

I disagree here. No, I don't believe in such a "strain of theology" that essentially dismisses Christ's "DO's and DON'Ts" instructions and ground rules.

The "Our Father" is a prayer to God asking for the Holy Spirit to infuse us with encouragement in deed. BECAUSE WE ARE WEAK AND PRONE TO SIN:

"...And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one." (NKJV)

In layman's terms, YES, in the finality, "past sins" ARE "washed away" by the blood of Jesus Christ in a pure act of Grace to those accepting this gift. This is not heresy or a misunderstand. ANY admission into the Kingdom of God is based on nothing BUT grace, since NONE of us are worthy. Even IF we've achieved all those "good deeds," and acts of "forgiveness," what about all the other sins left sullying our "account"? Still we remain sinners. "IT. IS. DONE." What's it mean to you, Vic?

No one is saying that the importance and requirements of good deeds and forgiveness commanded by Jesus is to be ignored or dismissed. But by THAT criteria, man will still fall short of sinlessness in God's Kingdom because...he is "man." Thus man remains condemned without Jesus blood paid as ransom for an imperfect, sinful man.

Liberator  posted on  2014-11-02   14:05:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Liberator (#101)

As you readily concede, it can be said that the standard is SO high that ALL men fall short.

I don't think so.

Christ set the standard for the lake of fire twice on the last page or two of Scripture:

Don't: murder, commit sexual immorality, lie, engage in pharmakeia or idolatry or be a coward.

That's not such a high standard that nobody can meet it. In fact, with a change of heart, wrought by Christ, it's a pretty easy standard to meet. It's a high standard, but it's not a particularly hard one.

His yoke is easy and his burden is light.

Christianity is about following Jesus by doing what he said to do and not doing what he said not to do. That is the marrow of the religion.

Vicomte13  posted on  2014-11-03   11:00:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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