Here is what I would consider an excellent overview of the main worship service in the Orthodox Christian Church, the Divine Liturgy.
Our Lord, at the Last Supper, said "Do this in remembrance of Me." As can be seen, in the Divine Liturgy we commemorate many of His acts toward our salvation, from his incarnation in Bethlehem to His second and glorious coming.
I know that for many of my Protestant brethren, this worship service may seem to be very strange and elaborate. But I would contend that the Divine Liturgy and other services of the Orthodox Church are in fact Biblical.
For just one example, most Protestants eschew the burning of incense. But the Prophet Malachi foretold in Malachi 1:11
"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts."
Incense was used in worship in the Old Testament, above the Prophet states that the Gentiles will also use it to worship God, and in Revelation we read that it is also used in heavenly worship. At no place in Scripture are we ever told to abandon using incense in worship, yet many Protestants have done so, IMHO simply just because the Roman Church used it and when they Protested against the Roman Church they also IMHO abandoned some completely Biblical practices merely because they reminded them of the Roman Church which they had left.
I know that for many of my Protestant brethren, this worship service may seem to be very strange and elaborate.
Yes it's overly elaborate -- I've been party to many Catholic services. That said, do your thing. Frankly, the Lord will know your heart.
So what comprises proper worship of God?
The truth is, "proper worship" is a far more simple matter than some believe it is.
Giving glory to the Father and the Son, building on a personal relationship, love of fellow man, maintaining a fellowship in or out of God's House, forgiveness, sharing the Gospel, refraining from putting the World before the Lord....
IMHO, making the criteria and requisites for acceptance into Heaven so heavily ensconced in rituals is making too many who WANT to believe give up completely.
I know that for many of my Protestant brethren, this worship service may seem to be very strange and elaborate.
Yes it's overly elaborate -- I've been party to many Catholic swervices. That said, do your thing. Frankly, the Lord will know your heart.
So what comprises proper worship of God?
The truth is, "proper worship" is a far more simple matter than some believe it is.
Giving glory to the Father and the Son, building on a personal relationship, love of fellow man, maintaining a fellowship in or out of God's House, forgiveness, sharing the Gospel, refraining from putting the World before the Lord....
IMHO, making the criteria and requisites for acceptance into Heaven so heavily ensconced in rituals is making too many who WANT to believe give up completely.
The assertion that beautiful Church services are actually detrimental, causing people to give up completely, is rather new to me.
I would agree completely that what matters most is what is in our heart and our actual personal relationship with God. A ceremony will not save you. However, in my experience, the Church in her wisdom has maintained worship that helps to draw in the believer into a deeper relationship with God. One historical example from non-believers being drawn to Christ by the Liturgy is the account of when St. Vladimir sent envoys to learn of the different religions of different nations and report back to him what they discovered:
"The envoys reported: "When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good... Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here.""
-- And what about my earlier question concerning incense in worship? It is completely Biblical, yet I have lost count of the number of times in the past that Protestant friends and acquaintances have spoken of it as though it were something evil. Liturgical Churches are often accused of following "the traditions of men", but what is the reason that most Protestants have abandoned the use of incense in worship -- other than that their predecessors didn't use it and so it has become their own "tradition" to avoid it completely?
The assertion that beautiful Church services are actually detrimental, causing people to give up completely, is rather new to me.
HERE is my actual quote:
"IMHO, making the criteria and requisites for acceptance into Heaven so heavily ensconced in rituals is making too many who WANT to believe give up completely."
A bit different than your interpretation, no?
I would agree completely that what matters most is what is in our heart and our actual personal relationship with God. A ceremony will not save you.
And that's ALL that matters. Even better that we agree on this.
However, in my experience, the Church in her wisdom has maintained worship that helps to draw in the believer into a deeper relationship with God.
I guess that may be a possibility for some worshipers.
And what about my earlier question concerning incense in worship? It is completely Biblical, yet I have lost count of the number of times in the past that Protestant friends and acquaintances have spoken of it as though it were something evil. Liturgical Churches are often accused of following "the traditions of men", but what is the reason that most Protestants have abandoned the use of incense in worship -- other than that their predecessors didn't use it and so it has become their own "tradition" to avoid it completely?
Look -- I'm not going to dwell on the minutiae of rituals and traditions as a matter of necessity of soul-saving. What MIGHT be considered "evil" is an obsession or belief those those rituals are requisites that supersede the simple Gospel message.
I have never claimed that traditional worship is required for salvation, so why do you keep asserting that like I have done so?
The thief on the cross was saved by Christ's mercy.
But on the other hand, I have met some Protestants who are so focused upon their acceptance of Christ as their Lord, that they tell me that they don't need to go to Church at all... ever. How in the world is that Biblical? Jesus Christ built a Church, and the Apostles in the Bible clearly led it and it clearly was the norm and expected for believers to gather together in the Church for worship.
So my question has been from the beginning of this thread -- what is proper worship? Are you saying that we shouldn't bother with worshiping God at all? If not, and then we indeed are called to worship together in Church, then my original question stands -- what is Biblical worship of God? Is it just a lecture at an auditorium? When God described what He wanted for worship, it was quite ceremonial and elaborate, both in the Old Covenant Temple and what we read the worship in heaven is like in Revelation.
So why is it wrong to pattern Christian worship after what is described in the Bible? Is there some verse that I missed that says to just talk about God and that's enough?
I have never claimed that traditional worship is required for salvation, so why do you keep asserting that like I have done so?
I NEVER made this personal. So why are you? I'm just attempting to address your concerns/question of generality and of the opinions of Protestants, specifically.
But on the other hand, I have met some Protestants who are so focused upon their acceptance of Christ as their Lord, that they tell me that they don't need to go to Church at all... ever. How in the world is that Biblical?
Well, we are commanded to share a fellowship with our brethren. Are we not doing so NOW? Our "church" is where ever we share that with others. We do not need a brick and mortar building to fellowship, worship, or to speak to the Lord directly...or is THAT "un-Biblical"?
We indeed are called to worship together in Church, then my original question stands -- what is Biblical worship of God? Is it just a lecture at an auditorium?
Just answered: Our "FELLOWSHIP" is a "Church." Can it be a brick and mortar building? Of course.
So why is it wrong to pattern Christian worship after what is described in the Bible?
It's not. But let's not confuse "Biblical" with "tradition." They are often NOT one and the same.
Hello Orthodoxa, glad you are over here. Yes I remember you posting this to me
a couple of years back on LP. You went into great detail that the Orthodox
liturgy includes a reenactment of the scene in Heaven from Revelation.
I am not one of those Mystery Babylon focused Evangelicals. Christian
fellowship as we see it in the NT has one joyful requirement. The loving
gathering of the faithful to celebrate the sacrifice (death) and resurrection
of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. As is said by the Master "do this in
remembrance of Me." If all the elements of this are in a Christian fellowship
worship gathering, Praise God!
As you probably know, at least for the evangelical church I am part of, 'church' on Sunday is almost a 'whole day' event. Worship service and the Lord's Supper is usually 90 mins, but can be longer as the Holy Spirit leads. Then there is what you refer to as the "auditorium session" which we call the Bible hour where we focus on the teachings in the Word of God and the elder or lay teacher provides a Christ centered sermon. I mention this because you may be familiar with some Protestant or Evangelical churches using the pulpit for politics. Has no place when the focus is Christ Jesus. While this occurs the youngin's are in Sunday school. Then most remain for some refreshments in the basement and some fellowship. Then later after dinner time usually at 7:30 a good amount show for the evening Bible hour. This is usually the time when a 'series' is discussed as in a study of a particular book of the Bible or topic. I say good amount because the younger folk with kiddos usually can't make this because of getting the kiddos ready for school the next day. Summers the evening Bible hours is usually packed. Then on Monday's the ladies usually have a ladies Bible study at a house. Tuesday night the elders meet after work. The elders like all the congregants have jobs. No one is a paid pastor or elder. Usually a retired gentlemen will become a 'full time' 'minister' to the elderly, and run our Gospel mission home for the recovering substance abuse residents, and just about every retired lady minister daily to those in need and visit nursing homes to care for the elderly. Then on Wednesday night is the weekly meeting for fellowship and scripture study. Thursdays are usually reserved for the men's Bible study at a house, but usually in the basement as we are not as skilled as the ladies in home preparation:) Friday and Saturday are about the only days there is something not going on.
The only negative feedback I get from my Orthodox friends (one being a Chaplain
priest) is "you better wear some comfortable shoes" as I believe your mass is
all standing:) That's the lighter side.
I am curious, if you have the time if you can describe your differences with
the Roman Church over real presence and if you have the same doctrine of
transubstantiation. Not asking to ignite a debate, just curious as you know
there are varying Protestant (Luther vs. Calvin et. al.) understandings.
Thanks in advance and may you have a blessed day and see His Glory in all His
Creation.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Just answered: Our "FELLOWSHIP" is a "Church." Can it be a brick and mortar building? Of course.
I'm sorry if anything came across as a personal criticism, it was not intended to be so.
Of course a Church is not simply a building, but do you actually meet together physically with other Christians? I can understand in some extreme cases sometimes that might not be possible because of illness or other situations.
In general content, it does not sound like you are really very different from the Orthodox. The first part of the Liturgy is the "Liturgy of the Word" which is derived from the synagogue services that the first Hebrew Christians were accustomed to. There is hymn-singing, Scripture-reading, and at least one sermon -- usually by a clergyman but sometimes a layperson will be blessed to deliver a homily as well. Usually the sermon will deal with the Scripture readings assigned for that particular day -- since our readings are scheduled with a liturgical calendar, one thing that a Protestant convert to Orthodoxy told me that he liked was that he was able to read ahead for the next Church service and "be prepared". Another benefit of the calendar, IMO, is that it is arranged so that if a faithful person attends every single possible Orthodox service for a year, they will have heard all of the New Testament and large portion of the Old Testament.
And then the second half of the Orthodox Liturgy is the "Liturgy of the Faithful" or the portion that is more specifically the Communion portion of the Liturgy. So it sounds like we do many things in common, although of course there are differences in timing and style.
LOL, yes in some of our Churches (especially Slavic ones in the USA) there are often not any pews, but even in those as you can see in the video for the OP, there are usually some chairs and benches along the walls for people that really do need them for whatever reason. Most Greek and Antiochian parishes in America usually have pews. When I've attended Churches without pews, one curious thing that I've observed is that it seems to me that toddlers especially like it without pews -- they are more free to look around and satisfy their curiosity (within reason) looking at Icons or other people or the things happening in the service. Their shorter attention spans sometimes seem to be challenged by a long service stuck in a pew, but when they can move around a little they seem to be happier. I can recall one service where a bolder toddler escaped from their parents and ran straight up to the Bishop seated upon his Episcopal Throne, who just calmly scooped the child up and held him for part of the service until he was ready to go back to his mom.
Regarding the subject of the Real Presence, the Orthodox Church has never tried to explain how the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ, we just accept that it does.
In Corinthians 11 we read:
"23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep."
-- At least in my view, people do not become sick or die if it is only symbolic. And thus as the Apostle Paul is preaching to the Church of Corinth, we teach that it is important that the faithful each do their best to prepare for Communion. Most Bishops encourage people to partake each week if possible, although some people choose to partake a few times a year, typically for major feast days. Anyone who is not partaking of Communion can still go forward (they can signal that they aren't partaking by placing a finger over their mouth, like the "be quiet" signal) and those people can still receive a blessing and some bread called Antidoron, which is not the Communion bread but simply blessed by the Priest or Bishop. At the end of the service, everyone will usually get some Antidoron as well, in addition to getting a final blessing from the Priest or Bishop.
One thing that I did not remember in my post in regard to seating is that in Coptic Churches usually the men and women sit on different sides of the Church. It isn't a rigidly enforced rule, but I figured I would mention it in case anyone visited a Coptic Church in the future, sat down without paying attention and then later felt like they may have committed some minor embarrassment.
On the occasions I have visited a Coptic Church in the past, they were always extremely loving and friendly. I got to visit a service one time when the recently departed Pope Shenouda III was presiding, and they were courteous enough to send altar boys out to sit next to visitors with English translations of the service and point to each phrase as it was being sung, chanted or said.
My understanding is that their custom (and they would acknowledge that it is just a custom, there is no dogma behind it) is just a holdover from the very conservative Jewish practices from the early days of the Church.
Here's a video that has a few photos of congregations where you can see that particular custom:
And, for the info of any readers unfamiliar with the situation; the Copts, Ethiopian Orthodox, Indian Orthodox, Assyrian Orthodox and a few other Churches are what are often referred to in English as Oriental Orthodox rather than Eastern Orthodox. The Oriental and Eastern Orthodox Churches are not in full communion with each other due to the Oriental Churches not accepting the Council of Chalcedon. But relations are currently very warm and improving between the two Church families as leading theologians of both sides believe that a chief contributor towards the split was that the Oriental Churches were all from regions that did not speak Greek and the Council was conducted in that language. Some of the translations that have been found and compared appear to have been faulty and so may have contributed to the split.
Currently, many Eastern and Oriental Churches have made agreements to help each other out -- when members of their flocks cannot find a Church of their jurisdiction the other Churches have agreed to have their clergy assist in any pastoral needs that may arise.
Here is a video of the Lord's Prayer first recited and then sung in Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke on earth when he was physically with us, as is still done by a remnant of Orthodox Christians in Syria who have been under attack by the Muslims. May God deliver them from evil!
I will note the publishing of the Orthodox Study Bible in English helped me understand your church. The footnotes and endnotes are very clear especially on key Christian doctrines. I also like to refer to the OT as it is from the LXX as most Protestant Bibles use the Hebrew. It is a welcome addition to my digital library as is the Complete Jewish Bible.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
Here's another beautiful Syrian Orthodox hymn sung in the original Aramaic:
For an English translation:
"Come in peace Oh! true shepherd and wise guide. You are the foundation of the Church like Peter and Paul. Brother and friend of the Prophets and companion of the Apostles. (You are) a zealot like Elijah and a virgin like John. Blessed is the Church that received you.
Welcome, O Noble Father, the Chosen Shepherd. Your flock thirsts to see You and for Your blessings we await. We thank God who has chosen You as a Shepherd for us. In Your name we rejoice and find gladness. Let us all cry out with our strength, "Long live our Father" we shall say and will affirm"
-- At least in my view, people do not become sick or die if it is only symbolic. And thus as the Apostle Paul is preaching to the Church of Corinth, we teach that it is important that the faithful each do their best to prepare for Communion.
Yes more than symbolic. We are to approach The Lord's Supper/Communion as if we were in the Upper Room with Christ present with His disciples. Which I will note they all had a foot washing before Christ offered them the cup.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)
I will note the publishing of the Orthodox Study Bible in English helped me understand your church. The footnotes and endnotes are very clear especially on key Christian doctrines. I also like to refer to the OT as it is from the LXX as most Protestant Bibles use the Hebrew. It is a welcome addition to my digital library as is the Complete Jewish Bible.
That is wonderful to hear. Like you, I have found the Orthodox Study Bible in English an invaluable aid to my studies. They really did such a nice job on it, IMHO, it took many years of work for them to complete.
Here is another beautiful Aramaic song used in worship by Syrian Orthodox
"I am the true light, our Lord said to the disciples.
Anyone who walks in the Light, will not get lost in the Dark.
Blessed are the holy apostles, since they walk in the Light of the Messiah.
Today we celebrate their tributes from around the world.
May their prayers be a stronghold for us."
The Choir of Mor Afrem would be more commonly translated as St. Ephrem (the Syrian) in English. St. Ephrem was a prolific hymnographer of the 4th century.
