The Left's War On Christians
See other The Left's War On Christians Articles
Title: "Militant Atheist" Endorses Stalinist Censorship for "religious fanatics" at LP; Exposed as a Hypocrite
Source:
Liberty Post
URL Source: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/ ... gi?ArtNum=348566&Disp=525#C525
Published: Oct 13, 2014
Author: Redleghunter
Post Date: 2014-10-13 14:15:07 by Liberator
Keywords: MilitantAtheist, HypocritalLibertarian, FauxConstitutionalist
Views: 77887
Comments: 168
#525. To: tpaine, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, listener (#502)
LOL you are a piece of work. What about the libertarian, CT and homosexual lobby fanatics who post here? Mr. Libertarian you can't silence one philosophical voice or view, let all others opine and expect to be called libertarian.
Mr. Constitution I and every person of faith or religion has a First Amendment Right to freely exercise our religion AND as with all Americans the freedom of speech. Now if Goldi wants to limit those rights on her forum fine, but call it "Limited Libertypost" to accurately portray the site.
For someone who opines daily on the rights of individuals yet wants a particular philosophical thought suppressed is complete hypocrisy.
Please examine yourself.
Redleghunter is apparently one of those "religious fanatics" tpaine referred to. Tpaine -- a HUGE so-called "constitutionalist" and crusader for libertarianism -- was emboldened and still intoxicated and inspired by Goldi-Lox's "fanatic jesus"/you make me VOMIT!" comment.
Will Mr. Constitution "comprende" Hunting Season when its declared on hypocritical Libertarians? Chyeah, Paine -- We ALL saw what happened when one Closet Christian-Hater got called out on his fake "libertarian" and select memory of the US Constitution.
(Tpaine):"We've all seen what happened at FR when religious fanaticism took too much control. Goldie doesn't want it to happen here. Comprende?"
Poster Comment:
Tpaine -- yet another closeted out-of-the-woodwork Stalinist libertarian/Militant Atheist and anti-Christian -- was exposed and called out for his utter and complete blatant hypocrisy. Courtesy, redleghunter..
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#120. To: tpaine (#118)
(Edited)
It all still doesn't explain how you'd concluded that Christianity, aka "religious fanaticism took too much control." Or the meme of how Goldie supposedly safeguarded LP from it as though it were an unchecked cancer. Christians did NOT monopolize or control the forum. Fact is, Free Speech was blunted. You endorsed it. And NO, there never was any such Christian "fanaticism" at LP. EVER.
Lol, you're now officially insane. I'd LOVE for you to back up that scurrilous charge. Backstabbing? Try "calling out." Fine, then defend your bullshit. Stop your endless moderating and straddling the fence of principle. When "fanatical Christians" were maligned and slandered, WHERE WERE YOU to defend the faith AND charge? (no where.) Invoking "Trutherism" wins you no debate either. It's the same as calling someone a "homophobe," racist," "anti-semetic", "Islamophobe," etc. Designed purely to shut down debate without examining all the facts. I'm not going to belabor that issue with you. If you want to believe Official Fairy Tales, who am I to tell you otherwise?
I thought there was little point in bothering to debate people whose chronic threadjacking habits were so undeniable. I never liked threadjacking. In the old days on Usenet (late 80's), we had mods who were quite strict about it.
Pete --- No,they are about forcing me at gunpoint to live according to your Christian version of Sharia Law. Lib --- Any coercion or threats involved? --- Yes or No Pete -- Yes. Starting with fines and evolving to time in prison. Lib -- And whomever did so committed a criminal act (however, they did NOT act upon ANY Biblical/Christian principles -- know THAT.) Did you report it to the proper authorities at the time? Here we have it sports fans, a clear example of liberators circular argument ploy. The argument is about religious 'shiria' style law, and liberators asserts that whoever violated that questionable 'law', committed a criminal act.. Round we go ....
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", --- refers to freedom from STATE religion, and freedom OF religion. Thank you for conceding that point. The free exercise clause applies, and is quoted just above. Read much? So you concede both of my points above, and now want to divert back to one of my comments at LP? I explained that comment on the thread you cited. Get off the circular argument bit. Because she made it so. You're entitled to your opinions. They are not facts.
Hey, you are trying to force your views. But you are failing ha ha. Keep on trying though ;)
Frankly I did not see anyone "storm out." Those that did leave had good cause to do so. The Name of Jesus Christ was blasphemed on the "vomit" thread. Christ's followers were "bagged and tagged" as extremists. So those that left had a good cause to do so and every right to defend their faith and beliefs. Goldi later clarified her position but never apologized. It was her site so people can come and go. She's gone now so let's all stop stepping on her grave. We should give it up now. All is in God's Hands now. Goldi is no longer with us to opine one way or the other.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
She was one of those people who never apologized for anything. I think she was sad over her outburst and felt remorse. Some people just don't apologize at all. My dad was like that.
What happened to the Mad Dog pic?
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Can't buy what you need Mon-Sat?:) Regardless of faith, everyone needs a day off. Chick Fil A is closed on Sunday. What's the issue with giving folks off work at least one day a week?
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
And the holidays, both religious and secular.
How many workers in the USA today don't get at least one day a week off?
Motorcycle shops used to be closed on Monday. Race on Sunday, pick up the pieces and recover on Monday. There's nothing wrong with a day off. Attempts to legislate morality are frequently based on religion. Alcohol, drugs, prostitution and others, government should just butt out of. The D&R party is giving religion a bad name. Being a Christian doesn't have to be painful, IMO.
Y'all throw out that fundamentalist moniker quite often. When in fact it is nothing like what it means. FIVE FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH There are five fundamentals of the faith which are essential for Christianity, and upon which we agree: 1. The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:1; John 20:28; Hebrews 1:8-9). 2. The Virgin Birth (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23; Luke 1:27). 3. The Blood Atonement (Acts 20:28; Romans 3:25, 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:12-14). 4. The Bodily Resurrection (Luke 24:36-46; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, 15:14-15). 5. The inerrancy of the scriptures themselves (Psalms 12:6-7; Romans 15:4; 2 Timothy 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20). At the beginning of the 20th century those who held to the above were called "fundamentalists." I believe all of the above! Guilty as charged! So did our nation's founders! The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity. - John Adams The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. - John Adams The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God. - John Adams “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.” - United States Congress 1782 - It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. - Patrick Henry - The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.” - Abigail Adams "The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” - Benjamin Rush - See more at: http://www.usachristianministries.com/us-history- quotes-about- god-and-the-bible/#.dpuf The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Do you know what a false dichotomy is ! your dna is tuned liberal ! You're spawning up - down a liberal dump - sewer !
If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
Serious question. You don't see Christianity as a worldview? In which people live by a certain morality and apply such to politics, culture and society? What I posed above is close to what Gary posed to Goldi about 3 years ago. She conceded he was correct. On the effort to proselytize? I have to say it is not proselytizing to proclaim one's Christian worldview on the evils of abortion, the Alinsky tactics of the homosexual lobby and the general eroding of the family base in America. Pointing out America is in the crapper due to secularism and a rejection our Judeo Christian founding is not proselytizing. It is pointing out the giant wart on the tip of the nose everyone pretends to not see. Let the children…be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. - Benjamin Rush -
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
I retired it. With new people showing up I thought it might be off-putting!
What "sharia" type laws are Christians pushing on fellow Americans? Reading the threads it seems that was the question posed. I will add the silent rule of freedom of speech. You can choose not to listen or read what others post. I do it a lot myself. I tend to use the Proverbs 26:4-5 principle. Holiness to the Lord (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20) - Washington Monument Search the Scriptures (John 5:39) - Washington Monument The memory of the just is blessed (Proverbs 10:7) - Washington Monument “We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” - James Madison The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Hi A Pole.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Some people just don't apologize at all. My dad was like that. I sensed that as well with her last two responses to me. So I let it go. In retrospect we now know she may not have been well at the time of the postings in question. That's why we should all let it go. Employ the Christian principal of forgiveness even when one does not seek it or refuses it. Sally gave us a posting home. She took most in as strays like her cat. Let's put this to rest.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Stupid commercialism. Stores now open on Thanksgiving!
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
See the post I responded to. It seems some are inconvenienced with shops closed on Sunday.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
No it wasn't painful for a very long time in the US. Why? Because the majority of folks were Christian, or practicing Christians, or professing Christians or didn't care about being Christian but appreciated all those hard working Christians who kept their property tidy and their businesses fully employed. This comes to mind: "The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.” - John Dickinson
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
If that were my only day off indeed it would. Remember when stores and gas stations closed at 5:00 PM? When only some manufacturing shift workers, medical and safety employees worked nights? The entire economy has changed.
I am not answering any posts to me on this thread between the last one I was pinged to this one. Any of you who want to do a little "we dun shoed dat heathen!" victory dance,go ahead. Frankly I don't give a damn and I have better things to do with my time that spend it trying to reason with people incapable of operating on reason. BTW red,none of this was directed towards you as an individual. It was a blanket statement of non-interest.
Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)
Well that was a much needed heart deep laugh:) Whew. Eyes still tearing from that:) LOL
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
My father in law was a very early riser for his work. Up at 2:30am, cup of Joe and a bagel out the door by 3am. He had to drive 45 min to work. At one time if he did not fill his car the evening before he would be up the creek. So yeah he loved it when a few convenience gas stations opened nearby in his rural town.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
Round we go .... Pete NEVER divulged details of his "coercion" experience. No date. No person. No context. NOTHING. And suddenly it's presumed to be an exercise in Christian "sharia"?? You people are hysterically desperate. And what an intellectual DIS-honest job of cobbling at least TWO posts, then presenting it as ONE -- without any context. But hey -- just as long as you inserted the word, "shiria," eh? Since you mentioned "circular" (your signature posting style), for clarity -- let's return to THE scene of the crime: (Tpaine):"We've all seen what happened at FR when religious fanaticism took too much control. Goldie doesn't want it to happen here. Comprende?" Thanks, Mr. Constitution. You atheist stalwart of free speech and libertarianism. OH WAIT.
Answers? ANYONE??
LOL. Is he one of those activists that insist that Christmas be called "Winter Holiday" and similar silliness?
Yup. EXACTLY. And now public Christmas Tree lightings are referred to as "Festival of Lights." All those pesky "shiria"-endorsing Christmas creches MUST be bull-dozed as well.
Goldi is no longer with us to opine one way or the other. Sage advice.
So you'd be fine with some aggressive JWs and Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists to come to your news forum to enjoy their own freedom of speech and to proclaim their worldview too? Are you sure you favor that if you are in a minority? How much Mormon preaching and theology do you want to have on general news threads of all types? I don't favor it at all on news threads. Let news be news and religion be religion. There isn't that much crossover between the two in news stories. Look down the list of Drudge's stories. They are some type of news (world, national, health/medicine, legal, policing, etc.) or religion. The only real issue with Goldi was that she didn't want every news thread she (and the rest of us) clicked to go a couple of posts and turn into a 20-page theological debate. BTW, I see jwpegler is spending money to produce his site from a big media company. He's doing his best to copy some familiar elements from these P sites (menus, categories). A lot of slick Bootstrap.js and CSS to make it run well on tablets and cellphones and it appears ready to run on touch screen devices. He provides an article title and photo and a link to the source website and he provides a comments thread (with no news article on it). Technically proficient but still looks kinda sterile and lame. I'm not sure what direction he will take with it. It has to be costing him even if they are just adapting a generic template design they offer to other customers. The company's site is surprisingly barren overall. I may be overestimating them. There's little doubt his designer has been visiting the P forums, LP or LF most likely.
Ok Pete see you on another thread.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
WARNING: Some foul language. -2- Are you sure you favor that if you are in a minority? How much Mormon preaching and theology do you want to have on general news threads of all types? -3- I don't favor it at all on news threads. Let news be news and religion be religion. There isn't that much crossover between the two in news stories. Look down the list of Drudge's stories. They are some type of news (world, national, health/medicine, legal, policing, etc.) or religion. -4- The only real issue with Goldi was that she didn't want every news thread she (and the rest of us) clicked to go a couple of posts and turn into a 20-page theological debate. -1- This isn't my forum, but I personally have no problem with civil free speech. I don't mind hearing the views of different faiths, I often enjoy the discussion. -2- The internet is a really big place. If I ever felt uncomfortable somewhere, then I would find another place. After all, that's why I came here in the first place -- to be at a site where posting about Christianity was OK. -3- For some people, religion affects every part of their life. If their posts are really that offensive to you, then why not just bozo them and not worry about it? -4- That wasn't happening there and hasn't been happening here. IMHO, people who are offended by the occasional mention of Christian beliefs are really being quite hypersensitive. Like I said, many of us came here specifically to have the freedom to talk about religious stuff -- so why should it be changed now?
Here we have it sports fans, a clear example of liberators circular argument ploy. The argument is about religious 'shiria' style law, and liberators asserts that whoever violated that questionable 'law', committed a criminal act.. Good grief red, you've probably been on these sites as long as I, and you should know by now the hot button issues. Yep, and its been answered ad nauseam.
Did you think of that flick because I happened to use the phrase "DVDA extravaganza" earlier today? LOL.
I have no problem with the above. It happens often over at TOS and an opportunity to shine a bright light on their belief system. One lady thanked a thread contribution on JWs as she said she now had an answer for them when they come to the door. Mormons are too easy. You just have to quote the BOM and watch them deny such quotes as real. I'd say on a site like this one, they would freely leave after having a bright light shine on their actual doctrines and not the slick snake oil presentations they do door to door. So yes, they can come but like all of us they should expect to suit up properly for a contact sport. Also I do believe the head to head religion topics stay on the religion tab. TOS does that too and a good idea. However there will be "spillage" when issues of morality and direction of our country come up. Christianity is a worldview thanks to our founders. They were not shy about that at all. They made sure no one denomination ruled over our country as in most European nations. However the founders give ample evidence this nation was not to be Godless or without Judeo Christian ideals. Most actually saw the propagation of liberty through Christian faith. I don't favor it at all on news threads. Let news be news and religion be religion. There isn't that much crossover between the two in news stories. Look down the list of Drudge's stories. They are some type of news (world, national, health/medicine, legal, policing, etc.) or religion. Of course. If you have a faith or religion news article it goes in the proper folder here. When I post faith pieces here it goes in religion or bible study. Stone has both here. If an article about abortion comes up under American politics, then I will express such an issue based on my Evangelical Christian worldview. People can listen or converse with me, their choice. If someone asks why I believe what I do, I will point them to scriptures as the Bible influences how I vote. If someone wants to be a bumkis after I post such and carry on with an atheist screed or inaccurate comments about Christ and Christians I will respond. If someone calls me or others a homophobe for taking a conservative Biblical stance on marriage...I am going to respond no matter the posting category. If someone posts that The USA was founded by deist secularism, I will respond. Back in 2011 (thereabouts) Sally after a warning about posting categories clearly stated she understood that regular news articles would evoke religious discussions as sometimes you cannot separate the issues. Lastly, I pinged a few others to get opinions and to not gang up.
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.”(Isaiah 40:8)
You miss the point entirely. At LP, every thread was fair game for threadjacking into theology. Certainly, there were many off-topic postings on various topics but changing a thread into a religious discussion was by far the most common one. That was what annoyed Goldi, that is what it was all about. And, I have to say, the martyr routine wears a little thin after a while. It is not the second coming of Stalin for any website to expect users to post religious posts in, yes, the Religion category.
That is true. But no more than about 10% of the time. The vast majority of stories do easily separate into proper categories. The same is true of sports. At least 90% of sports stories belong in a sports section, maybe 95% or more. But an NFL quarterback running a dogfighting ring will be reported as regular news. A player thumping his wife around an elevator will be regular news. And so on. A properly moderated site puts stories in their proper categories and keeps threads on-topic. This is why people are willing to pay TOS to do this kind of forum moderation.
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#121. To: TooConservative (#119)
All because you weren't allowed to hijack every thread at LP to shove religion at Goldi or Marguerite or meguro or whoever?
#122. To: Liberator (#121)
When "fanatical Christians" were maligned and slandered, WHERE WERE YOU to defend the faith AND charge? (no where.)
#123. To: Liberator, sneakypete, Y'ALL (#104)
Liberator (#90) -- Are those laws about converting you to Christianity?
#124. To: Liberator (#120)
Yes, the MOSTLY Christian Founders are THE ones who specified that no STATE religion be enforced or coerced upon the citizenry as a matter of Constitutionality.
And that's "FREEDOM OF RELIGION," Einstein, in the context of freely worshipping as one pleases.
It all still doesn't explain how you'd concluded that Christianity, aka "religious fanaticism took too much control."
Or the meme of how Goldie supposedly safeguarded LP from it as though it were an unchecked cancer. Christians did NOT monopolize or control the forum.
Fact is, Free Speech was blunted. You endorsed it. And NO, there never was any such Christian "fanaticism" at LP. EVER.
#125. To: sneakypete (#30)
you clearly want to force your religious viewpoints on everyone else.
#126. To: Liberator, TooConservative, Vicomte13, GarySpFc, Don, out damned spot, Orthodoxa, BobCeleste (#97)
#127. To: redleghunter (#126)
Goldi later clarified her position but never apologized.
#128. To: Biff Tannen (#113)
#129. To: hondo68, Vicomte13 (#114)
Back in the 1950's there was a Blue Law prohibiting retail sales on Sunday, in Ohio. It made weekend shopping tough.
#130. To: redleghunter (#129)
What's the issue with giving folks off work at least one day a week?
#131. To: redleghunter (#129)
What's the issue with giving folks off work at least one day a week?
#132. To: redleghunter (#129)
Chick Fil A is closed on Sunday.
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#133. To: tpaine, liberator, BobCeleste, GarySpFc, TooConservative, sneakypete (#118)
(Edited)
religious fundamentalists
#134. To: TooConservative, pcpete, decktwat, tpinthea** (#130)
#135. To: TooConservative, GarySpFc, Vicomte13, liberator, A K A Stone (#119)
You had a Religion category at LP too. Know what, it didn't get much use. So that was why those posters had to come out of their own Religion category so they could proselytize their way across the entire forum.
#136. To: redleghunter (#128)
#137. To: tpaine, sneakypete, liberator, Uncle Siggy, GarySpFc, Don, listener, TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#123)
Here we have it sports fans, a clear example of liberators circular argument ploy. The argument is about religious 'shiria' style law, and liberators asserts that whoever violated that questionable 'law', committed a criminal act..
#138. To: A Pole (#125)
#139. To: TooConservative, liberator, GarySpFc, Vicomte13 (#127)
She was one of those people who never apologized for anything. I think she was sad over her outburst and felt remorse.
#140. To: TooConservative (#130)
#141. To: yukon (#131)
#142. To: hondo68, TooConservative, liberator, Uncle Siggy (#132)
Being a Christian doesn't have to be painful, IMO.
#143. To: redleghunter (#141)
It seems some are inconvenienced with shops closed on Sunday.
#144. To: redleghunter (#137)
#145. To: Biff Tannen (#136)
I retired it. With new people showing up I thought it might be off-putting!
#146. To: yukon (#143)
If that were my only day off indeed it would. Remember when stores and gas stations closed at 5:00 PM? When only some manufacturing shift workers, medical and safety employees worked nights? The entire economy has changed.
#147. To: tpaine, redleghunter, sneakypete (#123)
(Edited)
Here we have it sports fans, a clear example of liberators circular argument ploy. The argument is about religious 'shiria' style law, and liberators asserts that whoever violated that questionable 'law', committed a criminal act..
#148. To: redleghunter, tpaine, sneakypete, liberator, Uncle Siggy, GarySpFc, Don, listener, TooConservative, Vicomte13 (#137)
#149. To: Liberator (#147)
You atheist stalwart of free speech and libertarianism. OH WAIT.
#150. To: Orthodoxa (#149)
LOL. Is he one of those activists that insist that Christmas be called "Winter Holiday" and similar silliness?
#151. To: redleghunter (#126)
She's gone now so let's all stop stepping on her grave.
#152. To: redleghunter (#135)
On the effort to proselytize? I have to say it is not proselytizing to proclaim one's Christian worldview on the evils of abortion, the Alinsky tactics of the homosexual lobby and the general eroding of the family base in America. Pointing out America is in the crapper due to secularism and a rejection our Judeo Christian founding is not proselytizing. It is pointing out the giant wart on the tip of the nose everyone pretends to not see.
#153. To: sneakypete (#144)
#154. To: TooConservative (#152)
How much Mormon preaching and theology do you want to have on general news threads of all types?
How To Get Rid Of Mormons
The D&R terrorists hate us because we're free, to vote second party
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#155. To: TooConservative, redleghunter (#152)
-1- So you'd be fine with some aggressive JWs and Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists to come to your news forum to enjoy their own freedom of speech and to proclaim their worldview too?
#156. To: redleghunter (#137)
What "sharia" type laws are Christians pushing on fellow Americans?
Reading the threads it seems that was the question posed.
#157. To: hondo68 (#154)
How To Get Rid Of Mormons
#158. To: TooConservative, BobCeleste, GarySpFc, liberator, out damned spot, A K A Stone, Don, Orthodoxa, B-Chan, listener, Vicomte13 (#152)
So you'd be fine with some aggressive JWs and Mormons and Muslims and Buddhists to come to your news forum to enjoy their own freedom of speech and to proclaim their worldview too?
#159. To: Orthodoxa (#155)
-3- For some people, religion affects every part of their life. If their posts are really that offensive to you, then why not just bozo them and not worry about it?
#160. To: redleghunter (#158)
Back in 2011 (thereabouts) Sally after a warning about posting categories clearly stated she understood that regular news articles would evoke religious discussions as sometimes you cannot separate the issues.
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