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Title: ANTICHRIST RISING!
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Published: Feb 6, 2013
Author: Stone
Post Date: 2013-02-06 22:48:16 by A K A Stone
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Views: 24305
Comments: 54
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 26.
#4. To: A K A Stone (#0)
Please expand on this subject. The pic is not enough.
The bible is so overused....;}
The Bible presents the Truth and the Truth will set you free.
The Bible contradicts itself so often, how do you know which truth is the one that will set you free.
Please present the contradictions. I am curious what you have to offer.
Many of the things that appear to be contradictions aren't really, but the reason they aren't sometimes forces a change in our perception of things. For example, if you look in your red-letter Bible, to the most famous passage of all in John, you will see everything from John 3:10 to 3:21 is in red letters, indicating that all of it was spoken by Jesus. But actually the red letters should end at 3:12. The rest of it, including John 3:16 ("For God so loved the world...") is John theologizing, long after the fact. It is not Jesus speaking to Nicodemus because it CANNOT be, for it if were, then Jesus here contradicts other parts of the Bible by referring to things that had not happened yet as having already happened. The use of serial "Ands" in ancient texts was a way to indicate sentence ending and paragraph breaks, as ancient written Greek had no punctuation and was written in all upper case letters, and without even spaces between the words in some of the oldest manuscripts. In this writing system, "And" often functioned as a period, not a conjunction. Is it important theologically? Not really; not unless somebody has made a big deal about John 3:16 having been spoken by Jesus. But that is not Biblical. The Bible is silent on exactly who is speaking, but context requires this to be John's theologizing for the reader long after the fact, as opposed to a quote of what Jesus said to Nicodemus. If one insists that the red letters, including John 3:16, were all spoken by Jesus, then there is a hopeless contradiction in John 3:13, for if Jesus speaks these words himself to Nicodemus, at the point Jesus speaks these words, he had never yet ascended into Heaven.
Please go into a little more detail on this. I don't see a contradiction in 3:13. Trifle confusing, perhaps, but I see nothing wrong with red letters from 5 thru 8 , and 10 thru 21
Ok. I'm at a little bit of a disadvantage because I don't have a Bible with me here where I am, so I'll have to circle back and give you more details later. What I am saying here will be more general. First off, this appears in the Gospel of John. John is specific, because he numbers Jesus early miracles. Jesus' very first public miracle is before he begins his public ministry. He already has been baptized and named a few disciples, but he has not started publicly preaching yet. He attends the wedding at Cana with his mother and performs the miracle of water to wine, even though he hasn't actually started revealing his miraculous nature yet (and more particularly, even though he has not instituted the eucharist wine yet at the Last Supper) and protests to his mother that his time has not yet come. So, that's miracle one. Then he goes to Jerusalem and cleanses the Temple for the first time, but doesn't perform any public miracles yet. We know this because John later identifies a miracle as Jesus second miracle. Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night when Jesus is down at Jerusalem. So, this is the context. Jesus is not yet the miracle-man. He has preached in the public and performed one surprising sign, in Cana of Galilee (along way away). He has gained fame (or infamy) by cleansing the Temple and preaching in Jerusalem, but that's the extent of it at this point. Nicodemus is not referring to Jesus raising the dead, healing lepers, feeding the multitudes or any other such thing, because John tells us right in the text that Jesus at this point has only performed one miracle. (Cana is first, and the next miracle, specifically identified as the "second", is later.) Now then, Jesus tells Nicodemus that a man must be begotten again. (This is generally translated "born" but it really shouldn't be. Jesus isn't saying that one has to get mothered again, he is saying that one must be FATHERED again - begotten - by the Father. This is of a piece with what he later says to some of the Pharisees, that their father is the Devil. Jesus says that you have to be fathered again - by the spirit of the Father - but I digress.) The problem is that Jesus says (roughly, from memory) 'Nobody has ascended into heaven except for he who descends from heaven..." This refers to himself. There are two potential contradictions here. The first is that it appears to contradict the Genesis story of the "translation" of Enoch, and the second is that Elijah was carried off into the sky on a chariot of fire. So, we must assume that wherever Enoch and Elijah were taken off to, it wasn't heaven. (It may have been Paradise, which isn't heaven...but the actual structure of the afterlife, though revealed, is not revealed here in this part of the text, so I'll skip over it.) If we assume that Enoch and Elijah were taken to Gan Eden, which is Paradise, and actually part of Sheol (Hades) (with Gehenna - "Hell" being another part of it), then what Jesus says here is not a contradiction. But we cannot have Elijah or Enoch going to heaven where God is, because as of the time that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, circa 31 AD, NOBODY had yet ascended into Heaven, according to Jesus, other than he himself. And that is the real contradiction. Note well that later, after Jesus has died, he specifically instructs Mary Magdelene not to touch him, because he has not yet ascended. When he does finally ascend, it is about 40 days after the Resurrection. This is the contradiction: if Jesus is speaking here, he is speaking to Nicodemus of having ALREADY ASCENDED, but scripturally, he HAD not. Jesus was a man. While he walked the earth is man's flesh, he was a man, with man's limitations. He prayed alone and performed miracles with divine power, but he "humbled himself" as a man while he lived as a man. Men do not fly. They do not ascend to Heaven. And Jesus' ascenscion was a big deal. Once he died, it was important that he not be touched before he ascended. (Why, precisely, we don't know.) There aren't any lines to suggest that Jesus, the man, was flitting back and forth between heaven and earth while he was a man. Indeed, there is much in the Bible that precludes that, for if he were doing so, he was not fully human. Moreover, he made a big deal of the ascensions after his death. Now, go and look what he said to Nicodemus in 3:10. He said something like "No man has ascended to heaven except he who descends from heaven." Well, Jesus descended from heaven, but until his death, he had not ascended into heaven himself either. That's the problem. The timeline is wrong. Jesus cannot, at this point, refer to himself as having "ascended into heaven", because he had not done so yet, and would not do so for another year or two. He had descended from heaven, as a baby, but he had not ascended to it. When he was alone in the desert, he was fasting and alone. There is not one sliver of a trace in any of the Gospels to suggest that Jesus ever left the earth in any way until he ascended after his death, and it theologically important (if we here true man), that he did not. So, if this is Jesus speaking to Nicodemus, right at the very beginning of Jesus' public miracles, this is nonsensical. He is speaking of nobody, for at that point Jesus himself had descended from heaven, but he had not ascended into heaven. John 3:10 can only be true after Jesus' resurrection and ascension. It was not yet true when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus. And when Jesus ascended both times (right after his death, and then after 40 days for good), there were witnesses and people to whom he commented. The fact that he was ascending to heaven was a big deal, as it proved his divinity. But the Gospels are silent, and theologically the thought of a pre-resurrection ascension of Jesus, unknown to the Apostles (none recorded an account of it), wou be a real problem. That's why 3:10 has to be black-letter, John speaking theologically after the fact. Otherwise we have Jesus saying something to Nicodemus that is not true, and referring in the past tense to something that has not happened yet. That's why we know Jesus didn't say that, and how we know that it is John's theology, looking back after the fact and teaching us. What follows is of a piece. There is no logical basis to just rip 3:10 out of the text and put it in black letters, then to have Jesus resume speaking. John's theology is very dense and well-developed, and he has used this point to make it. Given that "all scripture is God breathed" we can certainly take it all as inspired by God, but we really can't logically take the language spoken from John 3:10 and onward in that section as coming from Jesus' own mouth to Nicodemus before the crucifixion, for the reasons stated. "For God so loved the world..." is brilliant, black-letter text.
Interesting, but i can't really type much on an ipad, so i'll type more L8tr. Not that i see it as central or that important, but in John 2:23, it says "when they saw the miracles he did". I think john's numbering was numbering the miracles in gallilee. So i'll look at it a bit more, but i still think it's all red letter in the range i said before, but i'll explain when i can type freely.
Could be, as far as the numbering of miracles goes. John 2:23 does indeed say that. It is strange for John to number the miracle at Cana number one and the healing of the man's child as number 2, and then just lump all of the public miracles done in Jerusalem as an unnumbered mass in between. I agree that considering the miracles in Galilee as one and two, allows the text to stand logically, but it sure is a weird way to do it. I ate my first hamburger in a McDonalds in Farmington, Michigan in 1967. I then grew up, moved all over the country and ate thousands of hamburgers in thousands of different places, including a hundred McDonalds. 30 years later, while travelling, I ate my second hamburger in Farmington, Michigan. While this is true, it's a nonsensical way to write about events. But I do agree that it "removes" the apparent conflict concerning the order of miracles (while leaving behind a distinct suspicion, for the reasons stated above, that the text has perhaps not been transmitted to us in the original order, that perhaps something was transposed at some point.) But there isn't anything one can do with the problem of Jesus apparently speaking of having already ascended when speaking with Nicodemus. Jesus did not ascend until after his death, which is a year or two in the future at the point he was speaking. The contradiction disappears completely when we understand this text as John theologizing. That 3:10 starts with an "and", which is one of the "punctuation marks" in an ancient language that had neither punctuation nor even upper- and lower-case letters, ANDINWHICHTHELETTERSWEREOFTENALLRUNTOGETHERASONESENTENCE, helps us see where to divide the text. It is a logical dividing point for John to theologize.
John had a different approach than did the synoptic gospels. Each of John's focused miracles had a purpose to show the Power of God over matter, physics etc. I can get more into that when I have better access to my notes. We also see that John focuses on the Judean ministry of Christ vs. Galilee early on. I think this is because John's gospel was written later in the 1st Century and the other three gospels (synoptic gospels) were already in circulation and focused on the birth, blood line and Galilee ministry. John's gospel does not mention the birth of Christ. Should we surmise then there was no birth? Of course not. Instead, John focuses on the Deity of Jesus Christ in John 1 and then goes into the ministry of John the Baptist. Now on this: "But there isn't anything one can do with the problem of Jesus apparently speaking of having already ascended when speaking with Nicodemus. Jesus did not ascend until after his death, which is a year or two in the future at the point he was speaking." (Vicomte13) I will not argue it could be red vs. black "letter" as you note. It could be John theologizing as you note, but as you also mention it does not matter since the following verses are sound and God inspired Words.
John may have been a Jewish priest by birth. There is certainly a priestly aspect to John's writings when contrasted with the synoptics.
#29. To: Vicomte13 (#26)
I think his family was at least "connected". We see this by John being admitted to the courtyard during the night "trial" of Christ by the Sanhedrin. Maybe through his time with John the Baptist, John met and befriended some members of the Sanhedrin. Or it happened during the ministry of Christ.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestANTICHRIST RISING!
#6. To: redleghunter (#4)
#7. To: mcgowanjm (#6)
The bible is so overused....;}
#9. To: redleghunter (#7)
The Bible presents the Truth and the Truth will set you free.
#11. To: mininggold (#9)
The Bible contradicts itself so often, how do you know which truth is the one that will set you free.
#13. To: redleghunter (#11)
#16. To: Vicomte13 (#13)
#17. To: Biff Tannen (#16)
(Edited)
#19. To: Vicomte13 (#17)
#20. To: Biff Tannen (#19)
#23. To: Vicomte13, Biff Tannen (#20)
Could be, as far as the numbering of miracles goes. John 2:23 does indeed say that. It is strange for John to number the miracle at Cana number one and the healing of the man's child as number 2, and then just lump all of the public miracles done in Jerusalem as an unnumbered mass in between. I agree that considering the miracles in Galilee as one and two, allows the text to stand logically, but it sure is a weird way to do it.
#26. To: redleghunter (#23)
Replies to Comment # 26. John may have been a Jewish priest by birth. There is certainly a priestly aspect to John's writings when contrasted with the synoptics.
End Trace Mode for Comment # 26.
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