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Title: Supremes Court Craps in Constitution: UPHOLDS 0BUMACARE - Justice Kennedy Screws Conservatives As Usual (editors note, actually it was Roberts who screwed America)
Source:
ABC News
URL Source: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic ... reme-court-decision-live-blog/
Published: Jun 28, 2012
Author: SCOTUS SCROTUM
Post Date: 2012-06-28 12:08:51 by Liberator
Keywords: 0buma, Fix, Supreme Court
Views: 22588
Comments: 42
Yes, in a vote of 5-4, the Supreme Court (infested with Leftists appointed by 0bama and that POS Anthony Kennedy nominated by a REAGAN!) uphold the illegal, un-constitutional 0bumaCare.
The Constitution just died a little more.
Justice Kennedy is a treasonous, un-principled little weasel - never mind joining Leftist-stacked court of Breyer, Sotomayor, Kagan, Satan-Ginsberg.
Winds up the US Constitution IS a GD piece of USED toilet paper.
Poster Comment:
*sshole Leftists and Statist Whores
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#3. To: Jameson (#2)
(Edited)
That's NOT the way it was presented to the American People, was it? Frankly, the SC justices who upheld this decision were nothing but partisan hacks - we all know that. Kennedy is just a whore who yields to the highest bidder. Not to worry though.... Mr. Romney says he will repeal the healthcare law on his first day in office..... Chyeah - THAT'LL happen. /s EDIT TO ALL: TooConservative sez the deciding vote was cast by...Justice Roberts! Dubya Bush's "conservative" Justice appointee and Chief Justice out of the blue.
It was Roberts who joined the Left this time. Kennedy wrote the dissent and was going for overturning the entire law. We have a new Chief Justice Souter on our hands. You kidding?? I read initially where it was Kennedy! From Yahoo News... Roberts??!?????
Death panels, courtesy of George W. Bush justice Roberts. The Bush/RomneyCare legacy lives, but you die! The bad news for Obama and the dems is that it's been declared a tax, so they get stuck with creating a new tax during a recession/depression. In a victory for the New Deal bastardization of the Constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled that the government can mandate at gunpoint that Americans buy monopolized health care insurance. “The Supreme Court upheld the health care law today in a splintered, complex opinion that appears to give President Obama a major victory,” reports USAToday. In order to avoid arguments that the law is a misinterpretation of the Commerce Clause, the Court ruled that the requirement is a tax. Justice Anthony Kennedy, who held the court’s swing vote, dissented. Reading from the bench, Kennedy said he and three conservative justices believe “the entire Act before us is invalid in its entirety.” Polls conducted prior to the landmark vote indicate most Americans do not favor the law. Today’s ruling is important because it is the first time in history that the federal government has required citizens enter into contract with private corporations to buy a product or service. It also represents one of the most egregious violations of the Constitution in American history. “The insurance mandate clearly exceeds the federal government’s powers under the interstate commerce clause found in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution,” writes Ron Paul. “This is patently obvious: the power to ‘regulate’ commerce cannot include the power to compel commerce! Those who claim otherwise simply ignore the plain meaning of the Constitution because they don’t want to limit federal power in any way.” “The commerce clause was intended simply to give Congress the power to regulate foreign trade, and also to prevent states from imposing tariffs on interstate goods. In Federalist Paper No. 22, Alexander Hamilton makes it clear the simple intent behind the clause was to prevent states from placing tolls or tariffs on goods as they passed through each state — a practice that had proven particularly destructive across the many principalities of the German empire.” Expect death panels to come back in a big way now that Obamacare is the law of the land. Now that there is no fear of political backlash, death panels will be sold as a measure to reduce medical costs which will predictably skyrocket (as costs do of anything government touches). If you are skeptical of this, consider a recent report in Britain. “NHS doctors are prematurely ending the lives of thousands of elderly hospital patients because they are difficult to manage or to free up beds, a senior consultant claimed yesterday,” the Daily Mail reported last week. It is being sold as a “death pathway” that is the equivalent of euthanasia of the elderly.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Notice how Roberts finally stepped forward and showed a glimpse of his true self? "It's un-Constitutional to force anybody to pay for health insurance,but it IS Constitutional for the government to tax you to pay for it and penalize and even jail you for refusing to pay those taxes". WOW! If there has ever been a weasel talking out both sides of his mouth,it is Roberts.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Very disappointing. Guess this shows the direction of the court from now on. Even Kennedy had more of a backbone.
"It's un-Constitutional to force anybody to pay for health insurance,but it IS Constitutional for the government to tax you to pay for it and penalize and even jail you for refusing to pay those taxes". That is a completely illogical statement with the latter part contradicting the former.
It's a "tax" that happens to function identically to a penalty. Roberts is a complete fraud. But I bet the Right's legal eagles will never call him out on it.
He blamed the American people for electing who they have as Representatives. ""It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices."
So I'm curious as to how much the American voters are gonna take their frustration out on the Democrats this fall??? We all remember what happened in 2010 after they passed ObozoCare!!! I've heard that they can get rid of ObozoCare the same way it came into existence, does anybody know if they can or not???
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
No truer words have ever been spoken....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
Not exactly. Passing obongocare was illegal legislation, but repealing it would be legal, IMO. Sure SCOTUS says it's legal, but they're pinheads! They say that you've got to buy sluts BC pills and condoms too, and provide a church for "gay" marriages. Like I said, PINHEADS!
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
No I meant by the Budget Reconciliation route....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
No, he's not. This is yet another Bush failure. He appointed Roberts. Bush's legacy of helping to grow government has lasted long after the son of a bitch left office. Just like LBJ and Nixon.
Who was appointed by a different Bush. Bush = bad
The legacy lives, but you die! Couple bits of tragic news there, eh? Truth is the Republic has been on national hari-kari watch since 1965. Comrade 0buma remains the USA's Microwave of Destruction....the more tragic news is he's found even more treasonous friends on high places. That said, we finally found out what many have warily expected eventually from Roberts....That he was the Black Widower Spider in-waiting and a Dem Operative. He was ALWAYS destined to be Bush's and the Globalist Elites' Trojan Horse Ace in the Hole. Dubya and his Neo-Trojan Horse Enemy-Within Brigade were and are up to his EYEBALLS in screwing this country... However 0bumaCare on a national scale is STILL 0buma's baby. Yes, Bush and Romney (there IS a difference of state vs. national governance) have certainly undermined the authority of The People and bear their share of responsibility respectively on setting up this Epic Fail... QUESTION: WAS this yet another Statist edict (much like the Patriot Act) that was slated and planned by the Elites 10-15 years ago until the "time-was-right"? One thing is certain - we're just one more GIANT step closer to a fascist dictatorship and several steps further away from the Founders' ideals and a Constitutional Republic. Today's decision for me has exposed more than just a simple difference of opinion by a supposed "conservative" Supreme Court Justice... Many of us remember how Dubya Bush tried in vain to foist his personal neo/globalist patsy, Harriet Miers upon the SC - having already foisted the now nakedly fake conservative Roberts upon us (nominated and oddly appointed as CHIEF Justice with nary a whisper of opposition curiously from the Dems if you recall...) And if you recall, it took an uproarous opposition and GOP-conservative mutiny to demand a real conservative be nominated and appointed - we wound up with Sam Alito. So the trend of Republican Presidents appointing one conservative AND one liberal justice (instead of appointing as partisan as Dem do without exception) has continues as now demonstrated - THE difference in the governance of the country leaning decidedly LEFT and Globalist since Nixon began alternating conservative and liberal SC justices (nominated Harry Blackmon, author of Roe v Wade).
His re-election death knell in all probability. But then again, we've seen the impossible become reality already: A Commie-Muslim Whitey-Hating, Coke-snorting queer and Best-Friend-With-Terrorists was elected President. Damage done. IS IT ENOUGH TO JETTISON HIS SUBVERSIVE AZZ INTO THE ASH-BIN??
Thanks for adjusting my title, Stone. Somebody else must have jumped the gun on this story when they saw a 5-4 decision.
“The insurance mandate clearly exceeds the federal government’s powers under the interstate commerce clause found in Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution,” writes Ron Paul... “This is patently obvious: the power to ‘regulate’ commerce cannot include the power to compel commerce! Those who claim otherwise simply ignore the plain meaning of the Constitution because they don’t want to limit federal power in any way.” Paul's observation bears repeating. This makes it official: The Constitution now means jack-squat (just in case any in-denial statists and liberals were still pretending otherwise)
Guess this shows the direction of the court from now on. Even Kennedy had more of a backbone. "Disappointing" isn't quite the word..."Nauseating" is more like it. THE FIX WUZ IN. AGAIN. If it's not Bush, it's McStain. If it's not McStain, it's Anthony Kennedy. If it's not Kennedy, it's...it's...Roberts. It's ALWAYS *someone* within the GOP. We (and the Constitution) got stabbed in the back. As usual. The REALLY bad news: Between Roberts and Kennedy (he of the surprise backbone), NO part of the Constitution is safe any more. (Me thinks Kennedy and Roberts played good-cop/bad cop here - yep, another "CT"; Roberts gladly took the heat from Kennedy who has too often been THE deciding vote on too many of these landmark decisions).
Yup... And just wait until the new Czar-dom is created (unless it's the IRS) that enforces the penalty phase. I suppose jail-time, liens and wage garnishes will be rife. Welcome to Gulag, USA.
Geez, he left no doubt, did he? As I proffered, I suspect he's been a Trojan Horse globalist since Day One of his unlikely appointment as CHIEF Justice (out of the blue). I'd LOVE to hear Scalia weigh in on his (supposed) peer's betrayal of ALL principle and intellectual honesty. As the the right's legal beagles, I haven't gotten a chance to hear any initial reaction out there. Any one hit the blood-sucking two-faced hypocrite Roberts between the eyes yet?
""It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices." Are you kidding??!? Beyond stunning. That arrogant, elitist SOB. So the mask comes flying off Roberts...as he flies out of his closet. ;-)
I found this response on the Obama Not only did Roberts limit the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses, he got the idiot liberal justices to go along with it. The Commerce clause is used by congress to expand its power, Necessary and Proper is used to cram social policies down citizens and the states throat. By limiting those powers (arguably rolling them back), and with Liberal backing, he is hamstringing Congress in the future and inviting future cases. By writing that Congress could TAX for any reason they wanted, Roberts threw it back into the political arena where it belongs. The penalty for the mandate IS A TAX. Penalties, interest, fees, etc paid to government are taxes and are used not only for revenue but to change or modify behavior. The penalty is a tax to modify behavior. The remedy is political and the Liberal justices agreed to it. The Liberal Justices handed the the political cudgel to Romney. What dupes. The furor over the ObamaCare act resulted in the drubbing that Democrats took in 2010. It died down when people knew that it was going to be decided by the courts. Both sides assumed it would be upheld or stuck and it disappeared for a while from the political landscape. It has now come roaring back after the Court has flipped all of the political calculations on their head. Roberts plays the long game. Link to thread and many more comments is here: WHITE HOUSE INSIDER: OBAMACARE …”Now we are truly ready to fight.” Am I being naive and idealistic? If so...I'll take that over suicidal.
Hmmm... Well, doesn't this all depend on how many votes through defective Diebold Machines Union thugs and bosses change? OR how many illegals get to vote? OR, how many Black Plantation "sons" if 0buma get to vote dozens of times apiece? OR, how many ballots voting for the Kenyan are discovered in a van down by the river...in hundreds of cities across the USA? ALL bets are off. If THE FIX is in, NO votes matter. I've heard that they can get rid of ObozoCare the same way it came into existence, does anybody know if they can or not??? I suppose it's possible...But then again, Baby Murder Law of 1973 was never over-turned.
The penalty for the mandate IS A TAX. Penalties, interest, fees, etc paid to government are taxes and are used not only for revenue but to change or modify behavior. The penalty is a tax to modify behavior. The remedy is political and the Liberal justices agreed to it. The Liberal Justices handed the the political cudgel to Romney. What dupes. This spin doesn't quite work in the real world of politics where we've learned there IS no such thing as liberals taking anything on the chin - nevermind the notion that Roberts may just be a Hero in the long run. Am I being naive and idealistic? Yes. If so...I'll take that over suicidal. HEY! Great to have options! :-/
By writing that Congress could TAX for any reason they wanted, Roberts threw it back into the political arena where it belongs. The penalty for the mandate IS A TAX. Penalties, interest, fees, etc paid to government are taxes and are used not only for revenue but to change or modify behavior. The problem with that is now they won't need the commerce clause. They will just say any tax in constitutional. Also where is healthcare on the list of enumerated powers.
I agree. Sure SCOTUS says it's legal, but they're pinheads! They say that you've got to buy sluts BC pills and condoms too, and provide a church for "gay" marriages. Like I said, PINHEADS! Pinheads, Rogue Saboteurs , wise Latinas, Leftist Witches, queer closet-cases (hint: ROBER_S), Jewish Marxists, and Globalist POS's. We're got there sane Justices: Scalia, Alito, and Thomas. Out of NINE justices, NONE are Protestant. In a nation where Protestants are the vast majority of the population? WHAT conspiracy??
Yes, Kennedy is STILL a little globalist weasel and back-stabber in my book. IMO, either he or Roberts would and could have been THE deciding vote in this case; Roberts took the bullet this time to insulate Kennedy from being the usual scapegoat who'd frequently side with the other four liberals on many a substantial decision. I do however concur with your indictment of Poppy & Dubya Bush as a treasonous globalist trash - along with President in recent memory except Reagan dating back to LBJ. But they can't trash the constitution without a lotta help from within and without.
Also where is healthcare on the list of enumerated powers. How do we combat this? Do you think anything will change if Romney gets elected? It will at least be interesting to see who Romney chooses as his practice debate partner. (Obama chose John Kerry after doing some profiling.)
Probably not. Obummer and the Dims will no doubt be spending tax money by the train load between now and Nov to buy all the votes they can buy. Look for even lower home loan rates,more grants to keep factories rolling,etc,etc,etc. The polls know they can spend the money now to make people happy and get votes,and nobody will remember any of it when the bills come due because they would have to admit they are partially to blame themselves. Hell,look at all the people who blame the failing economy entirely on Obummer,and seem to attach no blame whatsoever on Boy Jorge,despite him spending money he/we didn't have the entire time he was in office at a level that would have embarrassed FDR.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Not only that,but Congress has a history of almost never repealing laws,no matter how bad they are.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Leave Boy Jorge out of this. BTW,AFAIK,despite being a Muslim Lover in at least one sense of the word,he's not a Muslim.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Not really. I'm pretty sure creating the Federal Reserve was the first time.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
It's worse than that because it is 180 degrees off from the truth. Protecting the citizens from the consequences of their votes is THE prime reason the Supreme Court exists. They are supposed to be a safety valve that keeps us from voting away the Constitution.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I'd say Romney has a better chance now that the unSupreme Court has taken away states' and individual's rights this week. His base will be more motivated, especially if he can keep the anger going plus keep pointing out how the right person in the WH (and House and Senate) can overturn these unpopular events. Question is - will he - and congressmen - do what they are saying now? I don't trust any of them. Nor any SC justices any more either. Maybe liberator has it - Roberts was a plant, just waiting for the cases that would thoroughly destroy us.
I think a few things will. I'm not expecting to much. I think on foreign policy is where they would be the most similar.
I don't trust any of them. Nor any SC justices any more either. Maybe liberator has it - Roberts was a plant, just waiting for the cases that would thoroughly destroy us. I expect them to waffle on it a bit. Maybe there is more then one plant. They take turns voting constitution vs whoever really controls them. I think Thomas and Scalia are the real deal though.
Amazing, isn't it? The .gov cannot make the states hold their speed limits to 55 mph, but they can force you and I to purchase a product. And the beat goes on.....
"If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave." Samuel Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772
The .gov cannot make the states hold their speed limits to 55 mph, but they can force you and I to purchase a product. The degree of "amazement" of the .gov never ceases to amaze me ;-) Nor the insanity. They decided 10 years ago that tracking millions of illegal invaders and legally removing them was logistically "impossible". Yet THIS *illegal* logistical monstrosity is perfectly do-able? And what else shall the .gov coerce us to buy? Uh-oh...Here's where we start seeing black unmarked Crown Vics and Suburbans cruising neighborhoods stocked with vacuum cleaners and Amway merchandise...expect LEOs to be knocking on doors.
Sure seems that way, doesn't it? When The Mob "asks" its org member to perform a task, they *can't* say "no". This apparently was the payback of an original offer Roberts couldn't refuse.
I think the SC decided that the individual mandate was not really any different than a tax. - the congress certainly has a right to tax US.......
#4. To: TooConservative (#1)
Bad source.
#5. To: Liberator, *The Two Parties ARE the Same* (#4)
(Edited)
Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Obamacare
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#6. To: hondo68 (#5)
#7. To: Liberator, Too Conservative (#3)
EDIT TO ALL: TooConservative sez the deciding vote was cast by...Justice Roberts! Dubya Bush's "conservative" Justice appointee and Chief Justice out of the blue.
#8. To: sneakypete (#6)
Notice how Roberts finally stepped forward and showed a glimpse of his true self?
#9. To: Serenissima Venezia (#8)
That is a completely illogical statement with the latter part contradicting the former.
#10. To: sneakypete (#6)
Notice how Roberts finally stepped forward and showed a glimpse of his true self?
#11. To: Liberator, All (#0)
Supremes Court Craps in Constitution
#12. To: SJN (#10)
"It is not our job to protect the people from the consequences of their political choices."
#13. To: CZ82, *Yukon neo-Progressive Vermin* (#11)
I've heard that they can get rid of ObozoCare the same way it came into existence
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#14. To: hondo68 (#13)
Not exactly. Passing obongocare was illegal legislation, but repealing it would be legal, IMO.
#15. To: Liberator (#0)
(Edited)
Justice Kennedy is a treasonous, un-principled little weasel
we must as a species go into a period of shrinkage that we have not experienced since the Dark Ages and the Black Plague -- lucysmom (A.K.A. minnigold)
#16. To: TooConservative (#1)
We have a new Chief Justice Souter on our hands.
we must as a species go into a period of shrinkage that we have not experienced since the Dark Ages and the Black Plague -- lucysmom (A.K.A. minnigold)
#17. To: hondo68, TooConservative, Serenissima Venezia, CZ82, SJN, Redleghunter, A K A Stone, arasina (#5)
Death panels, courtesy of George W. Bush justice Roberts.
#18. To: hondo68 (#5)
The bad news for Obama and the dems is that it's been declared a tax, so they get stuck with creating a new tax during a recession/depression.
#19. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#20. To: hondo68 (#5)
Today’s ruling is important because it is the first time in history that the federal government has required citizens enter into contract with private corporations to buy a product or service. It [the decision] also represents one of the most egregious violations of the Constitution in American history.
#21. To: Serenissima Venezia, TooConservative (#7)
Very disappointing.
#22. To: TooConservative, Serenissima Venezia (#9)
It's a "tax" that happens to function identically to a penalty.
#23. To: TooConservative (#9)
Roberts is a complete fraud. But I bet the Right's legal eagles will never call him out on it.
#24. To: SJN (#10)
He [Roberts] blamed the American people for electing who they have as Representatives.
#25. To: Liberator (#17)
healthcare Health Tax thread over at The Ulsterman Report to be interesting: Elliott June 28, 2012 at 9:52 pm .
#26. To: CZ82 (#11)
So I'm curious as to how much the American voters are gonna take their frustration out on the Democrats this fall??? We all remember what happened in 2010 after they passed ObozoCare!!!
#27. To: Zesta (#25)
By writing that Congress could TAX for any reason they wanted, Roberts threw it back into the political arena where it belongs.
#28. To: Zesta (#25)
Not only did Roberts limit the Commerce and Necessary and Proper Clauses, he got the idiot liberal justices to go along with it. The Commerce clause is used by congress to expand its power, Necessary and Proper is used to cram social policies down citizens and the states throat. By limiting those powers (arguably rolling them back), and with Liberal backing, he is hamstringing Congress in the future and inviting future cases.
#29. To: hondo68, CZ82, TooConservative, Redleghunter (#13)
Repealing it [this un-Constitutional garbage ruling] would be legal, IMO.
#30. To: jwpegler (#15)
This is yet another Bush failure. He appointed Roberts. Bush's legacy of helping to grow government has lasted long after the son of a bitch left office. Just like LBJ and Nixon.
#31. To: A K A Stone (#28)
The problem with that is now they won't need the commerce clause. They will just say any tax in constitutional.
#32. To: CZ82 (#11)
So I'm curious as to how much the American voters are gonna take their frustration out on the Democrats this fall???
#33. To: hondo68 (#13)
I've heard that they can get rid of ObozoCare the same way it came into existence Not exactly. Passing obongocare was illegal legislation, but repealing it would be legal, IMO.
#34. To: Liberator (#18)
(Edited)
I've heard that they can get rid of ObozoCare the same way it came into existence Not exactly. Passing obongocare was illegal legislation, but repealing it would be legal, IMO.
#35. To: Liberator (#20)
Today’s ruling is important because it is the first time in history that the federal government has required citizens enter into contract with private corporations to buy a product or service.
#36. To: Liberator (#24)
Beyond stunning. That arrogant, elitist SOB.
#37. To: Zesta (#25)
The furor over the ObamaCare act resulted in the drubbing that Democrats took in 2010. It died down when people knew that it was going to be decided by the courts. Both sides assumed it would be upheld or stuck and it disappeared for a while from the political landscape. It has now come roaring back after the Court has flipped all of the political calculations on their head. Roberts plays the long game.
#38. To: Zesta (#31)
How do we combat this? Do you think anything will change if Romney gets elected?
#39. To: Serenissima Venezia (#37)
Question is - will he - and congressmen - do what they are saying now?
#40. To: Liberator (#0)
#41. To: We The People (#40)
Amazing, isn't it?
#42. To: Serenissima Venezia, Zesta (#37)
I don't trust any of them. Nor any SC justices any more either. Maybe liberator has it - Roberts was a plant, just waiting for the cases that would thoroughly destroy us.
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