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Title: Three Articles that help explain Israel
Source:
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
URL Source: http://www.wels.net/news-events/for ... december-2008/invisible-church
Published: Jun 24, 2012
Author: various - Noted at end of each article.
Post Date: 2012-06-24 10:03:21 by SJN
Keywords: None
Views: 260661
Comments: 482
The Invisible Church As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Church. The word paints a picture. You see the building in which you worship. It may be a small, white-frame building set on a hill in the quiet countryside. Or it may be a large, stone structure occupying a street corner in a busy city. It’s not unusual for us to think of a building when we think of church. Worship is an important part of our lives, and that worship takes place in a building we love, whether it is fancy or plain. But that is not the way the word church is used in the Bible. In Scripture, church most often refers to people and not to buildings. The church is invisible In the New Testament the word ecclesia is often translated as church. Ecclesia refers to a group of people who have been called together. It is an assembly. Yet even that definition does not fully explain what the church is. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. The church is both visible and invisible. Why would we call a church invisible? You can see a building. You can see the people who gather in that building. Yet we do speak of the church as invisible in the Apostles’ Creed when we confess “I believe in the holy Christian church, the communion of saints.” Sometimes people mistakenly use the term saint to refer to a person who does an abundance of good deeds, someone who helps others. But the Bible uses the term to describe simply a believer. We even distinguish between believers who have been called home to heaven and those who still battle in this world. We speak of saints triumphant and saints militant. The apostle Peter describes these believers as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9). Together all believers form the holy Christian church, a “spiritual house” made up of living stones chosen by God. When the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we become part of this structure. The Lord Jesus can see the faith in our hearts. We, however, can only see the fruits of faith and not the faith itself. Because we cannot see faith, the church is invisible to our eyes. The prophet Elijah did not recognize that there were still seven thousand believers in Israel (1 Kings 19:8-18). He thought that he was the only believer left. Likewise, we cannot always tell whether a person is a believer or an unbeliever. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Although the church may be invisible to us, the Lord sees his church clearly. “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). At the same time each person knows what is in his or her heart. Trusting in the promises the Lord gives us, we know that we belong to that communion of saints, the church of God. Characteristics of the invisible church This invisible gathering of all believers is not limited by geography. The apostle John reminds us that believers come from different places and “from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9). In addition, the church is not limited by time. All believers who have lived, are now living, and will live until Jesus returns at the end of time—all these believers are part of this church. The church, the body of all believers, is invisible, and it is also universal. Once again we confess this fact in the Third Article of the Apostles’ Creed. “I believe in the holy Christian church.” The first people who used this confession of faith said, “I believe in the holy catholic church.” The word catholic originally had no denominational connotation. It simply meant universal. When catholic became associated with a particular organization, the word Christian was substituted to prevent confusion. In the Apostles’ Creed we confess that we believe that the Lord gathers together everyone whose faith is in Jesus Christ as the Savior. People believe in many things. We say that we believe in our team, in our country, and in people who are dear to us. Likewise, many people believe in some religious figure other than Christ. God’s invisible church gathers together only those people who confess Jesus as their Savior. We distinguish ourselves from the followers of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and every other religion. We confess that Jesus Christ is true man and true God. We believe that Christ is sinless and perfect and that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. In a world that suggests that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe, it becomes important to remember that the invisible church gathers together all believers in Christ. Without faith in Jesus we cannot be saved. Without Jesus we have no part in the communion of saints, the gathering of all believers. Jesus makes that clear when he says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). People die. Church buildings may fall apart. Congregations may disband. But the invisible church continues. The Lord has promised that there will always be true believers who are kept faithful by the power of God. “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28). What a comfort it is to know that the Holy Spirit, who calls us to faith, also preserves us in that faith through the gospel in Word and sacraments! It is easy to become attached to a congregation. It is in that fellowship that we listen to the good news of Jesus proclaimed. There we hear that our sins are forgiven. In our congregation we draw close to Jesus as we receive the sacrament of his body and blood. Likewise the building in which a congregation worships may be a special place. It may be the same structure in which we were baptized, confirmed, and married. It reminds us of all the blessings God has showered upon us. But we are part of something that is even more valuable, the holy Christian church. Our triune God has brought us together with people we may never see or know on this side of eternity. Through faith the Lord has made us a part of the congregation of all believers. Right now we are not able to see this church in its entirety. Yet what is invisible to our eyes now will be seen when the Lord returns in glory. What a joy it will be to see all believers from every part of the world and from all times! The day will come when we will gather together and praise the God of grace who gives us membership in his family, the invisible church. That church is not really invisible. It is only invisible to us. God sees it clearly. James Korthals, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Mequon, Wisconsin, is a member at David’s Star, Jackson. Peter's Picture of the Church 1 Peter 2:4-10 The word "temple" in our modern society usually describes a large, beautiful building which is used for the worship of some god. The use of such temples goes back thousands of years. Peter used it to paint a beautiful word picture of Jesus and his church in 2:4-8. Made up of living stones Jesus is pictured in many ways in John's gospel. Peter adds his own picture here, when he writes, "The Lord Jesus is the living stone" (v. 4). In verse 6 he gives the original source for this statement (Isaiah 28:16), where God said, "Look! I'm laying a stone in Zion [another name for Israel], a very special cornerstone of great value, and the person who believes in him will never be disappointed." In the ancient world the cornerstone was more than a stone on which was carved the date of construction. The cornerstone determined the length, the width, and the height of the building, so that the whole building depended on that cornerstone. That is the picture Peter uses to describe the church in verse 5a, where he says, "And since you are living stones, as you come to him you are built up into a spiritual temple," of which Jesus is the cornerstone. The church is built on Jesus, and around Jesus, the cornerstone. And it is made up of people who are like Jesus--perfectly holy beings in God's sight. That is the way God sees every person who truly believes in Jesus as his or her Savior, because our God-given faith makes us new creatures who are perfectly holy in God's sight, and every such person "will never be disappointed" on Judgment Day. Then Peter explains in verse 7, "This means that he's of great value to you people who believe in him, but for those who don't believe in him, 'the stone which the builders [the Jewish nation as a whole] decided was no good, is the very one which has become the cornerstone'; and 'the stone which will make people stumble, and the rock which will make them fall.' "How clear Peter makes it that Jesus is the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation. We are now a holy group of priests Next Peter uses a new metaphor in verse 5 when he says that the believers who come to Jesus as living stones "are built up into a spiritual temple, to be a holy group of priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices which God is happy to receive." He continues in verses 9,10, "There was a time when you were no people at all, but now you are God's people. You who never knew God's mercy have now received his mercy." Praise the Lord! Peter is reminding us that there was a time when we were all outsiders, so far as God is concerned, unbelievers who had never heard of the triune God. But now that we have heard the good news and have come to believe it, we are God's people, while the Jews, as a nation, have rejected their Messiah and are outsiders. Now you must take note of the fact that every believer is a priest whose principal occupation it is to offer spiritual sacrifices to our triune God each day of our lives. Yes, from morning to evening we offer our God our thanks and praises for the undeserved love he has shown us by sending first his Son to atone for all our sins, and then his Holy Spirit who has brought us to believe the good news that all our sins are forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross, so that we are now God's children who are perfectly holy in God's sight. Our task as priests is to also bring him our other sacrifices. First there are our time and our talents which we spend carrying out the different tasks we can do as members of our congregations. In some cases we may give our Lord all of our time and talents to serve as pastors, teachers, missionaries, or church office workers. All of us, whether we are active workers or not, can offer the Lord a portion of our financial resources, which represent the value of our time spent in some gainful occupation. And of course the temple in which we serve is known to us as the church, the whole body of believers. The picture of the church that Peter gives us here is perhaps the most complete picture to be found anywhere in the Bible. Julian Anderson is a retired pastor and seminary professor living in Naples, Florida. Samuel: A Judge in Israel Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. Think back 300 years before Samuel. Following the death of those who carved a Jewish homeland out of Canaan, “another generation grew up, who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel” (Judges 2:10). To awaken his spiritually-anesthetized people, God enlisted neighboring nations to harass, enslave, and terrorize Israel. Slapped to consciousness, God’s people recognized their sin, pleaded for forgiveness, and prayed for relief. God then raised up leaders—judges—who with the Lord’s power pushed back the oppressors. Moral and spiritual health flourished. But “when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers . . .” (Judges 2:19). Repenting to God This cycle of godlessness, oppression, repentance, freedom, upright living, and a return to godlessness repeated itself until Samuel. Remember Eli and his sons? 1 Samuel 7 brings us to a repentance and freedom section of that cycle and to Samuel as Israel’s final judge. The Ark of the Covenant remained in the border town of Kiriath-Jearim for 20 years after the Philistines captured it and then returned it to stem a Lord-induced plague. During those two decades “all the people of Israel mourned and sought after the Lord” (7:2). To confirm that renaissance of faith, Samuel summoned his countrymen to a spiritually essential, but politically provocative, act—national purification and rededication. Israel was not a free country. Philistine overlords kept close watch. When their surveillance noticed huge numbers of Israelites staging at Mizpah (literally, “look out point”), their early-warning alarms wailed. Mizpah was a military gem mounted in hills about eight miles north of Jerusalem. Soon the sound of Philistine marching boots, the clank of armor, and the bellow of war trumpets echoed off Mizpah. “When the Israelites heard of it, they were afraid . . .” (7:7). No doubt. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers (dare we add personal problems or financial difficulties) clamor for attention. Victory through God Samuel, however, urged Israel to fasten on God. “Do not stop crying out to the Lord our God for us, that he may rescue us” (7:8). Strength was not in their military might, but in the Lord’s omnipotence. God confirmed that. With Israeli knees bent in prayer and without an Israeli sword unsheathed, God’s deafening thunder routed the Philistine army. Panicked, the troops stumbled south toward safety. Their backs made easy targets. The Philistine losses that day did not completely free Israel. We await Saul and David to accomplish that. Israel, however, did enjoy a season of peace with Philistia and, as a fringe benefit, with the Amorites. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. To mark the victory, Samuel set up a monument called Ebenezer (“stone of help”). Ebenezer stones (church cornerstones, wedding anniversaries, birthdays) remind us, “Thus far has the Lord helped us.” But our most conclusive proof that there’s always an upside in our downside world is Jesus, “the stone the builders rejected [that] has become the capstone” (1 Peter 2:7). James A. Aderman is pastor at Fairview, Milwaukee.
(The Following article should help to illuminate why the Nation of Israel and it's people have seen thousands of years of turmoil).
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#342. To: redleghunter (#330)
More copy and paste bullshit "snap shots in time" of various letters written during these mens long lives to highlight a religious belief. Churches have been pushing this propaganda since the country was founded. It's a propaganda piece,comrade! Some of those men were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on. And of course no church newsletter is going to include any of this.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Remind me again when the Founding Fathers wanted religions laws to be the law of the land,loser.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
WOW! And all of that is original to you,huh? Isn't that another claim you are making? Do you REALLY think this is the first time I have seen that shit?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Impossible! Everything he posts is original to him. I know this because he said so right on this thread. The haters of Christ will refuse to see that it was through the Grace of God that this nation came to be and it will only be through the grace of God that she will continue What does God have against all those other people? Maybe they are all homos? Has anybody tried to tell your God that according to legend his only boy (born by another man's wife who we are supposed to believe was a virgin,btw) only hung out with hairly-legged men and talked about how we should all "Love your fellow man!?" Sounds to me like that Jesus fella might have been a homo. You should have him investigated.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Prove it fool.
I think there is only one person that you hate more than Christ and that's yourself.
Did the voices in your head tell you to write that? Or maybe you had a vision?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I don't hate Christ. He's dead. I hate the superstitious fools that want to run the world according to their superstitious beliefs. They used to burn non- believers in pots of boiling oil or at the stake,and if they/you had the chance,you would do it again.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
You said there were founders that for expedient sake went along to get along and changed their minds on their Christian beliefs later. Prove it.
Hey, some people still cut the heads off of unbelievers, chop off hands and feet. Some people used to be thrown in to volcanoes to appease the Gods. The one constant theme through out humanity is the belief in something outside of themselves whether that be wrong or not.
www.lonang.com/exlibris/locke/ Learn a little something.
THAT is a keeper, Red. You've done yeoman's work.. Excellent citations which ridicule the claim that America's Founders were NOT by and large Christian - aka in Pete's OWN words: "Taliban" and "fundies". It should also be noted that even IF some of the Founders of America were not devoutly Christian nor attended church, they publicly recognized and admitted the importance AND necessity of a Christian-ethic and moral system within our governance in order for their Republic to thrive - never mind survive. These Founders and their respective advocacy of Christianity were NOT invoked or written under duress (as suggested by Pete) while any claim of coercion is utterly ludicrous.
Prove it fool. "Persecution"?? Ya gotta be kidding me. These Christian Founders went out of their way to be (wait for the *IRONY*.....) tolerant. This is why from the very beginning there was no State Religion. Meanwhile, I'm sure Pete will be scouring Google for all that proof that the first American "fundie" and Taliban" coerced their co-Founders to say kind words about the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ...OR ELSE. Tick-tick-tick.....
Nor me, but people who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else the same as everyone else with the small exception of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be viciously villified and should not be discriminated against.
Wrong. You need to do some very basic research, and you will easily see this is most certainly not so.
Wrong. You need to do some very basic research, and you will easily see this is most certainly not so. Ok, I'll exclude Sodom and Gomorrah.... .....recent Frisco Gay Parades, Gay Day at Disney, and militant "We Proud, We're Loud, and We're In Your Face" street orgies and protests.
Who are YOU to dictate to and define the right of those to "viciously vilify"? Is the First Amendment in effect it is it not? Oh wait - the opinions of Christians, aka "Taliban" and "Fundies" - and intolerance and bigotry targeted against THEM - is ok, huh? ...and should not be discriminated against. Gays are treated like slaves and blacks during the 1940s and 1950s. Somehow I've missed this... Tell me Mike - do you believe certain people...say GAY people should have "Special Rights"? Why is an identical crime committed against both a queer and a straight person treated DIFFERENTLY under the law of the land? Do you believe that is fair? What of "Hate Speech" and "Hate Crimes"? ANY fair-minded, intellectually honest person realizes this is legalized DISCRIMINATION - as is ANY job preference or quota system BASED ON color, creed, race, OR gender.
There are murderers who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everthing else the same as everyone else with the small execption of a different perspective on if killing someone is right. Afterall some in society say killing babies is ok. So killing adults is ok too right? There are pedophiles who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else (think sandusky) the same as everyone with the small exception of a different age orientation and do not deserve to be viciously vilified and should not be discriminated against. I just demonstrated that the "points" you "made" in no way demonstrates that queers are just normal people. Unless you think pedophiles are too.
And there you have it. To the believers is about faith,not being right or wrong.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Wrong. I went thought this maybe 20 years ago,and learned that no amount of evidence in the world will convince people who operate off of faith that they are wrong. I could dig all that up again and it would change nothing.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
You are about as abnormal as they come, Stone.
Every application or document I fill out, or have filled out for the last decade I refuse to mark my race. Have you noticed that usually it is anything to do with the Gov. that want's to know your race? Census, etc. If we are a nation of laws in which every INDIVIDUAL is subject. It doesn't matter race, religion, or the desire to screw the same sex.
Idiot. Now go prove your statement that the founding fathers changed their opinions or religion.
You said there were founders that for expedient sake went along to get along and changed their minds on their Christian beliefs later. Prove it.
You are so blinded by your hate that you deny evidence through out the ages. You're too foolish for words.
Are you for "fag marriage" Fred?
Do you deny homosexuals exist, have existed and will continue to exist? Do you want to stone them to death, Mr. Taliban?
Do you want to stone them to death, Mr. Taliban? No don't deny it exists. Why the dumb question? No I don't deny it will continue to exist. Another dumb question. No I don't want to stone them to death. Taliban?? Don't be stupid. Now answer my original question. With the additional question if you think teachers in school should teach your grand kids that it is normal.
If they want to be as miserable as most married couples, let them have at it.
Is that your serious answer?
He is totally insane and in love with his strange rationalizations. He has no brains to back up his hubris with.
He's run all of the wimmens away. He's a total loOser.
Prove it. Prove God exists,retard.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Which one of us has a life that revolves around a mythical character and believes in virgin birth,life after death,etc,etc,etc? Guess what,Buckwheat. When you die they bury or cremate you,and that's the end of it for you for all of eternity.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I get you now. You are one of those evolutionists that like to fuck monkeys. Ok monkey fucker.
What does that make you,one of those thumpers that likes to fuck the children of God that were created in his image? Do you make them shave first? Does God know about this?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
If we are a nation of laws in which every INDIVIDUAL is subject. It doesn't matter race, religion, or the desire to screw the same sex. I've also noticed the .gov wants to know what I've had for breakfast...and color of my feces. (I NEVER check THAT box, lol). You're right - in a nation of individuals demographic info like financial, race, color, sexual preference, and creed mean nothing....except that this info helps politicians find out who mostly to pander.
And Stone is "Mr. Taliban"...why, again? Because he's Christian OR won't bend over as you demand, Fred?
Fred where are you today? Stone...seen Fred today?
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
Hey Sneak...drinking a PBR right now...
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
Comments (382 - 482) not displayed.
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#343. To: Liberator (#332)
And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban".
#344. To: redleghunter (#335)
#345. To: SJN (#336)
(Edited)
And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban".
#346. To: sneakypete (#342)
Some of those men were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on.
#347. To: sneakypete (#345)
#348. To: SJN (#346)
Prove it fool.
#349. To: SJN (#347)
I think there is only one person that you hate more than Christ and that's yourself.
#350. To: sneakypete (#348)
#351. To: sneakypete (#349)
#352. To: All (#350)
#353. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#335)
#354. To: SJN, sneakypete (#346)
Pete: "Some of those men [America's Founders] were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on."
#355. To: sneakypete (#256)
"They may be normal for homosexuals and bi-sexuals,but they sure as hell wouldn't be normal for me."
#356. To: Liberator (#269)
"...has universally ALWAYS operated within the closet."
#357. To: Ferret Mike (#356)
"Within ANY society, homosexuality ...has universally ALWAYS operated within the closet."
#358. To: Ferret Mike (#355)
People...of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be and viciously vilified....
#359. To: Ferret Mike (#355)
Nor me, but people who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else the same as everyone else with the small exception of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be viciously villified and should not be discriminated against.
#360. To: SJN (#351)
The one constant theme through out humanity is the belief in something outside of themselves whether that be wrong or not.
#361. To: Liberator (#354)
Meanwhile, I'm sure Pete will be scouring Google for all that proof that the first American "fundie" and Taliban" coerced their co-Founders to say kind words about the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ...OR ELSE.
#362. To: A K A Stone (#359)
I just demonstrated that the "points" you "made" in no way demonstrates that queers are just normal people.
#363. To: Liberator (#358)
What of "Hate Speech" and "Hate Crimes"? ANY fair-minded, intellectually honest person realizes this is legalized DISCRIMINATION - as is ANY job preference or quota system BASED ON color, creed, race, OR gender.
#364. To: sneakypete (#360)
And there you have it. To the believers is about faith,not being right or wrong.
#365. To: sneakypete (#360)
#366. To: sneakypete (#361)
will convince people who operate off of faith
#367. To: Fred Mertz (#362)
#368. To: A K A Stone (#367)
#369. To: Fred Mertz (#368)
Do you deny homosexuals exist, have existed and will continue to exist?
#370. To: A K A Stone (#369)
Now answer my original question.
#371. To: Fred Mertz (#370)
If they want to be as miserable as most married couples, let them have at it.
#372. To: Fred Mertz (#362)
"You are about as abnormal as they come, Stone." '
#373. To: Ferret Mike (#372)
#374. To: SJN (#365)
You said there were founders that for expedient sake went along to get along and changed their minds on their Christian beliefs later.
#375. To: SJN (#366)
You're too foolish for words.
#376. To: sneakypete (#374)
Prove God exists,retard.
#377. To: A K A Stone (#376)
I get you now. You are one of those evolutionists that like to fuck monkeys. Ok monkey fucker.
#378. To: SJN (#363)
(Edited)
Every application or document I fill out, or have filled out for the last decade I refuse to mark my race. Have you noticed that usually it is anything to do with the Gov. that want's to know your race? Census, etc.
#379. To: Fred Mertz, A K A Stone (#368)
Do you want to stone them to death, Mr. Taliban?
#380. To: A K A Stone, Fred Mertz (#371)
(Edited)
#381. To: sneakypete (#377)
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