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Title: Three Articles that help explain Israel
Source:
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
URL Source: http://www.wels.net/news-events/for ... december-2008/invisible-church
Published: Jun 24, 2012
Author: various - Noted at end of each article.
Post Date: 2012-06-24 10:03:21 by SJN
Keywords: None
Views: 260633
Comments: 482
The Invisible Church As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Church. The word paints a picture. You see the building in which you worship. It may be a small, white-frame building set on a hill in the quiet countryside. Or it may be a large, stone structure occupying a street corner in a busy city. It’s not unusual for us to think of a building when we think of church. Worship is an important part of our lives, and that worship takes place in a building we love, whether it is fancy or plain. But that is not the way the word church is used in the Bible. In Scripture, church most often refers to people and not to buildings. The church is invisible In the New Testament the word ecclesia is often translated as church. Ecclesia refers to a group of people who have been called together. It is an assembly. Yet even that definition does not fully explain what the church is. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. The church is both visible and invisible. Why would we call a church invisible? You can see a building. You can see the people who gather in that building. Yet we do speak of the church as invisible in the Apostles’ Creed when we confess “I believe in the holy Christian church, the communion of saints.” Sometimes people mistakenly use the term saint to refer to a person who does an abundance of good deeds, someone who helps others. But the Bible uses the term to describe simply a believer. We even distinguish between believers who have been called home to heaven and those who still battle in this world. We speak of saints triumphant and saints militant. The apostle Peter describes these believers as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9). Together all believers form the holy Christian church, a “spiritual house” made up of living stones chosen by God. When the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we become part of this structure. The Lord Jesus can see the faith in our hearts. We, however, can only see the fruits of faith and not the faith itself. Because we cannot see faith, the church is invisible to our eyes. The prophet Elijah did not recognize that there were still seven thousand believers in Israel (1 Kings 19:8-18). He thought that he was the only believer left. Likewise, we cannot always tell whether a person is a believer or an unbeliever. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Although the church may be invisible to us, the Lord sees his church clearly. “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). At the same time each person knows what is in his or her heart. Trusting in the promises the Lord gives us, we know that we belong to that communion of saints, the church of God. Characteristics of the invisible church This invisible gathering of all believers is not limited by geography. The apostle John reminds us that believers come from different places and “from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9). In addition, the church is not limited by time. All believers who have lived, are now living, and will live until Jesus returns at the end of time—all these believers are part of this church. The church, the body of all believers, is invisible, and it is also universal. Once again we confess this fact in the Third Article of the Apostles’ Creed. “I believe in the holy Christian church.” The first people who used this confession of faith said, “I believe in the holy catholic church.” The word catholic originally had no denominational connotation. It simply meant universal. When catholic became associated with a particular organization, the word Christian was substituted to prevent confusion. In the Apostles’ Creed we confess that we believe that the Lord gathers together everyone whose faith is in Jesus Christ as the Savior. People believe in many things. We say that we believe in our team, in our country, and in people who are dear to us. Likewise, many people believe in some religious figure other than Christ. God’s invisible church gathers together only those people who confess Jesus as their Savior. We distinguish ourselves from the followers of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and every other religion. We confess that Jesus Christ is true man and true God. We believe that Christ is sinless and perfect and that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. In a world that suggests that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe, it becomes important to remember that the invisible church gathers together all believers in Christ. Without faith in Jesus we cannot be saved. Without Jesus we have no part in the communion of saints, the gathering of all believers. Jesus makes that clear when he says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). People die. Church buildings may fall apart. Congregations may disband. But the invisible church continues. The Lord has promised that there will always be true believers who are kept faithful by the power of God. “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28). What a comfort it is to know that the Holy Spirit, who calls us to faith, also preserves us in that faith through the gospel in Word and sacraments! It is easy to become attached to a congregation. It is in that fellowship that we listen to the good news of Jesus proclaimed. There we hear that our sins are forgiven. In our congregation we draw close to Jesus as we receive the sacrament of his body and blood. Likewise the building in which a congregation worships may be a special place. It may be the same structure in which we were baptized, confirmed, and married. It reminds us of all the blessings God has showered upon us. But we are part of something that is even more valuable, the holy Christian church. Our triune God has brought us together with people we may never see or know on this side of eternity. Through faith the Lord has made us a part of the congregation of all believers. Right now we are not able to see this church in its entirety. Yet what is invisible to our eyes now will be seen when the Lord returns in glory. What a joy it will be to see all believers from every part of the world and from all times! The day will come when we will gather together and praise the God of grace who gives us membership in his family, the invisible church. That church is not really invisible. It is only invisible to us. God sees it clearly. James Korthals, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Mequon, Wisconsin, is a member at David’s Star, Jackson. Peter's Picture of the Church 1 Peter 2:4-10 The word "temple" in our modern society usually describes a large, beautiful building which is used for the worship of some god. The use of such temples goes back thousands of years. Peter used it to paint a beautiful word picture of Jesus and his church in 2:4-8. Made up of living stones Jesus is pictured in many ways in John's gospel. Peter adds his own picture here, when he writes, "The Lord Jesus is the living stone" (v. 4). In verse 6 he gives the original source for this statement (Isaiah 28:16), where God said, "Look! I'm laying a stone in Zion [another name for Israel], a very special cornerstone of great value, and the person who believes in him will never be disappointed." In the ancient world the cornerstone was more than a stone on which was carved the date of construction. The cornerstone determined the length, the width, and the height of the building, so that the whole building depended on that cornerstone. That is the picture Peter uses to describe the church in verse 5a, where he says, "And since you are living stones, as you come to him you are built up into a spiritual temple," of which Jesus is the cornerstone. The church is built on Jesus, and around Jesus, the cornerstone. And it is made up of people who are like Jesus--perfectly holy beings in God's sight. That is the way God sees every person who truly believes in Jesus as his or her Savior, because our God-given faith makes us new creatures who are perfectly holy in God's sight, and every such person "will never be disappointed" on Judgment Day. Then Peter explains in verse 7, "This means that he's of great value to you people who believe in him, but for those who don't believe in him, 'the stone which the builders [the Jewish nation as a whole] decided was no good, is the very one which has become the cornerstone'; and 'the stone which will make people stumble, and the rock which will make them fall.' "How clear Peter makes it that Jesus is the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation. We are now a holy group of priests Next Peter uses a new metaphor in verse 5 when he says that the believers who come to Jesus as living stones "are built up into a spiritual temple, to be a holy group of priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices which God is happy to receive." He continues in verses 9,10, "There was a time when you were no people at all, but now you are God's people. You who never knew God's mercy have now received his mercy." Praise the Lord! Peter is reminding us that there was a time when we were all outsiders, so far as God is concerned, unbelievers who had never heard of the triune God. But now that we have heard the good news and have come to believe it, we are God's people, while the Jews, as a nation, have rejected their Messiah and are outsiders. Now you must take note of the fact that every believer is a priest whose principal occupation it is to offer spiritual sacrifices to our triune God each day of our lives. Yes, from morning to evening we offer our God our thanks and praises for the undeserved love he has shown us by sending first his Son to atone for all our sins, and then his Holy Spirit who has brought us to believe the good news that all our sins are forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross, so that we are now God's children who are perfectly holy in God's sight. Our task as priests is to also bring him our other sacrifices. First there are our time and our talents which we spend carrying out the different tasks we can do as members of our congregations. In some cases we may give our Lord all of our time and talents to serve as pastors, teachers, missionaries, or church office workers. All of us, whether we are active workers or not, can offer the Lord a portion of our financial resources, which represent the value of our time spent in some gainful occupation. And of course the temple in which we serve is known to us as the church, the whole body of believers. The picture of the church that Peter gives us here is perhaps the most complete picture to be found anywhere in the Bible. Julian Anderson is a retired pastor and seminary professor living in Naples, Florida. Samuel: A Judge in Israel Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. Think back 300 years before Samuel. Following the death of those who carved a Jewish homeland out of Canaan, “another generation grew up, who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel” (Judges 2:10). To awaken his spiritually-anesthetized people, God enlisted neighboring nations to harass, enslave, and terrorize Israel. Slapped to consciousness, God’s people recognized their sin, pleaded for forgiveness, and prayed for relief. God then raised up leaders—judges—who with the Lord’s power pushed back the oppressors. Moral and spiritual health flourished. But “when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers . . .” (Judges 2:19). Repenting to God This cycle of godlessness, oppression, repentance, freedom, upright living, and a return to godlessness repeated itself until Samuel. Remember Eli and his sons? 1 Samuel 7 brings us to a repentance and freedom section of that cycle and to Samuel as Israel’s final judge. The Ark of the Covenant remained in the border town of Kiriath-Jearim for 20 years after the Philistines captured it and then returned it to stem a Lord-induced plague. During those two decades “all the people of Israel mourned and sought after the Lord” (7:2). To confirm that renaissance of faith, Samuel summoned his countrymen to a spiritually essential, but politically provocative, act—national purification and rededication. Israel was not a free country. Philistine overlords kept close watch. When their surveillance noticed huge numbers of Israelites staging at Mizpah (literally, “look out point”), their early-warning alarms wailed. Mizpah was a military gem mounted in hills about eight miles north of Jerusalem. Soon the sound of Philistine marching boots, the clank of armor, and the bellow of war trumpets echoed off Mizpah. “When the Israelites heard of it, they were afraid . . .” (7:7). No doubt. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers (dare we add personal problems or financial difficulties) clamor for attention. Victory through God Samuel, however, urged Israel to fasten on God. “Do not stop crying out to the Lord our God for us, that he may rescue us” (7:8). Strength was not in their military might, but in the Lord’s omnipotence. God confirmed that. With Israeli knees bent in prayer and without an Israeli sword unsheathed, God’s deafening thunder routed the Philistine army. Panicked, the troops stumbled south toward safety. Their backs made easy targets. The Philistine losses that day did not completely free Israel. We await Saul and David to accomplish that. Israel, however, did enjoy a season of peace with Philistia and, as a fringe benefit, with the Amorites. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. To mark the victory, Samuel set up a monument called Ebenezer (“stone of help”). Ebenezer stones (church cornerstones, wedding anniversaries, birthdays) remind us, “Thus far has the Lord helped us.” But our most conclusive proof that there’s always an upside in our downside world is Jesus, “the stone the builders rejected [that] has become the capstone” (1 Peter 2:7). James A. Aderman is pastor at Fairview, Milwaukee.
(The Following article should help to illuminate why the Nation of Israel and it's people have seen thousands of years of turmoil).
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#325. To: redleghunter, sneakypete, Biff Tannen (#308)
Then you and Biff are just brimming with genius:)/s Just admit neither of you have an intelligent response to my original post. Somebody get MENSA on the horn. #%$&!*@! is the new language of intellectual illumination.
They preach their "gospel" under the cloak of "tolerance" and "health" education in our schools. While Christians are not allowed to have a Bible within a city block of a school. They [the homos and advocates] do have their "high priests" and "clerics" who do not reside in marble cathedrals but sitting on the steps of the US Congress and they are called lobbyists. Hitting the truth on all cylinders, brutha. Don't forget the gay lobbying foisted upon America through the Leftist/queer-controlled networks, media, entertainment industries, and...the goob itself within THE INSIDE.
Ok, so we are not talking past each other, below is what I posted, not a quote from someone else or an article, MY words. The point of contention is WHO IS REALLY the TALIBAN here? And if someone cannot read more than two lines, sorry this stuff is not a bumper sticker and requires more than that. You come from a position that sees "tolerance" as being "acceptance." Gays are asking for acceptance and indoctrination and not tolerance. The true meaning of tolerance is this: you have a position, I have a position, we do not agree with each other's position but depart peacefully. What comes after this is called acceptance. Acceptance would be we have opposing views and one of us backs down and "accepts" the other's position as their own. Folks like SJN, me, Liberator and A K A Stone are all about tolerance as it is properly defined. We will not accept the homosexual position. And because folk like us do not accept your position on homosexuality there is only one option left to 'win' the debate. That would be called indoctrination and re- education. And WE ARE seeing that indoctrination today are we not? It is happening in the schools, after school programs, on TV and in universities. This week is the 50th Anniversary of the court decisions forbidding prayer and Bible study in public schools. So you can't say the Christians are trying to indoctrinate the kids in public forums, they can't it is illegal. However, given the homosexual lobby is not considered a religion (it should be) they can get local permission from school boards to "evangelize" their position thus cutting off the whole tolerance or acceptance route to the national debate. That is what good Christian folk are fighting for. Some form of neutrality. If gays can spread their false gospel to the masses unopposed hiding behind the cloak of "intolerance" and "bigotry" of others, The Gospel of Jesus Christ should be getting equal time. And if Christians do not get equal time, then we should be all demanding neutrality, which brings us back to the REAL meaning of tolerance. So based on the above, you can keep calling us intolerant bigots but that has little meaning and is just a chant. If you were tolerant in the real sense of the word, you could call the Christian response to the homosexual agenda as reactionary. And Christians would be correct and tolerant in calling the radical homosexual agenda an insurgency.
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
Heading out for a weekend in the woods (without internet!!) See ya! Try posting something original, I'll try and read it when I get back.
. See ya! REMINDER: It's left foot...THEN your right....left....THEN AGAIN your right foot. And don't try to over-think this!! I made sure this was a two-sentence instruction so I guess it's 50-50 you'll survive.
Yes, very interesting. Then the Founders were liars when they said the following about the Bible and Christianity: Samuel Adams "A general dissolution of Principles and Manners will more surely overthrow the Liberties of America than the whole Force of the common enemy. While the people are virtuous they cannot be subdued; but when once they lose their virtue they will be ready to surrender their liberties to the first external or internal invader . . . If virtue and knowledge are diffused among the people, they will never be enslaved. This will be their great security." Samuel Adams, The Writings of Samuel Adams, ed., Harry Alonzo Cushing (G. P. Putman's Sons, 1908), Vol. 4, p. 124. "I ... recommend my Soul to that Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins." Will of Samuel Adams "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient." "He reigns in Heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come." Samuel Adams "How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words." Samuel Adams The liberties of our country, the freedom of our civil Constitution, are worth defending at all hazards; and it is our duty to defend them against all attacks. We have received them as a fair inheritance from our worthy ancestors: they purchased them for us with toil and danger and expense of treasure and blood, and transmitted them to us with care and diligence. It will bring an everlasting mark of infamy on the present generation, enlightened as it is, if we should suffer them to be wrested from us by violence without a struggle, or to be cheated out of them by the artifices of false and designing men. Samuel Adams Fisher Ames “Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as wellas of faith.” Fisher Ames: Author of the First Amendment Alexander Hamilton "For my own part, I sincerely esteem it a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." Alexander Hamilton "I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man.". Alexander Hamilton Patrick Henry "We shall not fight alone. God presides over the destinies of nations, and will raise up friends for us. The battle is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave . . . Is life so dear, or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" Patrick Henry, in a speech March 23, 1775. "Whether this [new government] will prove a blessing or a curse will depend upon the use our people make of the blessings which a gracious God hath bestowed on us. If they are wise, they will be great and happy. If they are of a contrary character, they will be miserable. Righteousness alone can exalt them as a nation [Proverbs 14:34]. Reader! Whoever thou art, remember this, and in thy sphere practice virtue thyself and encourage it in others." Patrick Henry, Written on the back of Henry's Stamp Act "Amongst other strange things said of me, I hear it is said by the deists that I am one of the number; and, indeed, that some good people think I am no Christian. This thought gives me much more pain than the appellation of Tory; because I think religion of infinitely higher importance than politics; and I find much cause to reproach myself that I have lived so long, and have given no decided and public proofs of my being a Christian. But, indeed, my dear child, this is a character which I prize far above all this world has, or can boast." Patrick Henry, from a letter to his daughter in 1796 "The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed." Patrick Henry, Wirt Henry's, Life, vol. II, p. 621 "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government - lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry "Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Beside, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of Nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us." Patrick Henry John Jay "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." First Chief Justice of Supreme Court John Jay to Jedidiah Morse February 28, 1797 "God's will be done; to him I resign--in him I confide. Do the like. Any other philosophy applicable to this occasion is delusive. Away with it." John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, in a letter to his wife, Sally Jay, April 20, 1794, reprinted in The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, ed. Henry P. Johnston (New York, NY: Burt Franklin, 1970), vol. 4, p. 7. "I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds . . ." John Jay, in a letter to Rev. Uzal Ogden, Feb. 14, 1796, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 203. "While in France . . . I do not recollect to have had more than two conversations with atheists about their tenants. The first was this: I was at a large party, of which were several of that description. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. I took no part in the conversation. In the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ? I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did." John Jay, in a letter to John Bristed, April 23, 1811, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 359. "The same merciful Providence has also been pleased to cause every material event and occurrence respecting our Redeemer, together with the gospel he proclaimed, and the miracles and predictions to which it gave occasion, to be faithfully recorded and preserved for the information and benefit of all mankind." John Jay, in an address to the American Bible Society, May 9, 1822, in CPPJJ, vol. 4, p. 480. John Marshall "The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it." John Marshall, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833, JSAC, p. 139. Marshall was Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1801-1835. Benjamin Rush "I have alternately been called an Aristocrat and a Democrat. I am neither. I am a Christocrat." Benjamin Rush "Let the children...be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education. The great enemy of the salvation of man, in my opinion, never invented a more effectual means of extirpating [removing] Christianity from the world than by persuading mankind that it was improper to read the Bible at schools." Benjamin Rush, The Father of American Medicine, and the Father of American Psychiatry "The only foundation for a useful education in a republic is to be laid in religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty- - -" Benjamin Rush, Letters of Benjamin Rush, L.H. Butterfield, editor, Princeton: The American Philosophical Society, 1951, Vol. I p. 414, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787 "It will be necessary to connect all these (academic) branches of education with regular instruction in the Christian religion." Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, Philadelphia: Thomas & William Bradford, 1806, Ch. 'Thoughts upon Female Education' p. 82 Roger Sherman "I believe that there is only one living and true God - - - That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy Him." Lewis Henry Boutell, The Life of Roger Sherman (Chicago: A.C. McClurg and Co., 1896), pp. 272-273 David Barton, Original Intent (Aledo, TX: Wallbuilders, 2000) Ch. 6 p. 138 "Let us live no more to ourselves, but to Him who loved us, and gave Himself to die for us". M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company (Marlborough, NH, Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982) p. 29 Joseph Storey "Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and elevating its precepts." Joseph Story, "The Value and Importance of Legal Studies," a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66. Story served as Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1811-1845, and founded the Harvard Law School. "My own private judgment has long been (and every day's experience more and more confirms me in it) that government cannot long exist without an alliance with Religion to some extent, and that Christianity is indispensable to the true interests and solid foundation of all governments. . . . I know not, indeed, how any deep sense of moral obligation or accountableness can be expected to prevail in the community without a firm foundation of the great Christian truths." Joseph Story, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 14, 1833, in JSAC, p. 139. "One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is, that Christianity is a part of the common law, from which it seeks the sanction of its rights, and by which it endeavours to regulate its doctrines. And, notwithstanding the specious objection of one of our distinguished statesmen, the boast is as true, as it is beautiful. There never has been a period, in which the common law did not recognise Christianity as lying at its foundations" Miscellaneous Writings, p.451, “The real object of the (First) Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Chrisianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects (denominations).” Original Intent, by David Barton, ch. 2, p. 31, Wallbuilder Press, Aledo, TX, 1996; Commentaries, Story, Vol. III, p. 728, 1871 Noah Webster "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His Apostles.... This is genuine Christianity and to this we owe our free constitutions of government." Noah Webster Daniel Webster "Finally, let us not forget the religious character of our origin." Daniel Webster "Our fathers were brought hither by their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored by its hope." Daniel Webster
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
#%$&!*@! is the new language of intellectual illumination. Yes, Chef Ramsay would be proud:)
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
Oooops. And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban".
Half that show is bleeps, lol.
See ya! Try posting something original, I'll try and read it when I get back. Watch out for those manure trucks Biff:) And what I posted was a redleghunter original. Still at two lines! Enjoy the woods and stay away from any livestock.
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban". "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson Funny you should mention that. Most of the early and later Presidents were "fundie kooks" as well it seems. I am sure our politically correct police will no doubt be burning manuscripts and older history books. This is what our Presidents had to say: George Washington, "The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -- George Washington in his Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789 "Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress. "Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."--George Washington, ca. 1789, Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106. "And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the Earth...:grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by endeavors to fear and obey Thee." George Washington "The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776 "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." George Washington--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343. John Adams, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821 "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40. "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military. "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756. "The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796. John Adams and John Hancock: "We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! " April 18, 1775 "A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? ...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "...a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, dated June 21, 1776. "The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." --Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776. Thomas Jefferson, "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event." President Thomas Jefferson --Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237. "The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." President Thomas Jefferson "Of all systems of morality, ancient of modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to be so pure as that of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson To William Canby, 1813 "I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to man..." President Thomas Jefferson “I have always said and always will say that the studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, better husbands... the Bible makes the best people in the world." President Thomas Jefferson "My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—" Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush On April 21, 1803 "God who gave us life, gave us liberty." Thomas Jefferson "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a cisciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator." Thomas Jefferson wrote on the front of his Bible. “Well aware… that Almighty God hath created the mind free… all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments… tend only to begat… hypocrisy… and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of religion, who being Lord both of body and mind… chose not to propagate it by coercions… as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by… reason alone " Thomas Jefferson's tombstone James Madison, At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22; “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us.” [Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater] "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." James Madison - America's Providential History p. 93. "While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe, the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to them whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance (Massachusetts: Isaiah Thomas, 1786). This can be found in numerous documentary histories and other resources. The religion of divine origin was obviously Christianity, of which Madison said he was convinced. "Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it." James Madison response to an essay/sermon by Reverend Jasper Adams. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117. "Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other." James Madison, ca. 1789, cited in Gaillard Hunt, James Madison and Religious Liberty (Washington: American Historical Association, Government Printing Office, 1902), p. 166. • I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773) • In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. “ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government' far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the 10 commandments." "We have all been encourged to feel in the guardianship and guidance of that Almighty Being, whose power regulates the destiny of nations" . James Madison James Monroe, "When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good." --Monroe made this statement in his 2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818. "The liberty, prosperity, and the happiness of our country will always be the object of my most fervent prayers to the Supreme Author of All Good." March 5, 1821 in his Second Inaugural Address John Quincy Adams, “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"? President John Quincy Adams, July 4th, 1837 when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts "It is no slight testimonial, both to the merit and worth of Christianity, that in all ages since its promulgation the great mass of those who have risen to eminence by their profound wisdom and integrity have recognized and reverenced Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God." President John Quincy Adams "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity." President John Quincy Adams "My custom is to read four or five chapters of the Bible every morning immediately after rising... It seems to me the most suitable manner of beginning the day... It is an invaluable and inexhaustible mine of knowledge and virtue." President John Quincy Adams "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this; it connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams, July 4, 1821 "The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)." --Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248. Andrew Jackson, "The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." President Andrew Jackson Abraham Lincoln, America’s sixteenth president, who died on a Good Friday, was a devoted Bible reader but never joined a church. In a youth of near poverty, the Bible was one of the few books Lincoln owned. When he became president, its words and phrases found their way into many of his speeches. Earlier, a broken engagement had caused him much pain, and Lincoln declared that his Bible was "the best cure for the blues." Lincoln also said that "this Great Book is the best gill God has given to man." When his wife, Mary, urged harsh measures for the defeated Confederacy, Lincoln quoted Jesus’ words to her, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." "I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from the Savior (Jesus) of the world is communicated to us through this book. Abraham Lincoln “I am profitably engaged in reading the Bible. Take all of this Book upon reason that you can, and the balance by faith, and you will live and die a better man." Abraham Lincoln Lincoln’s famous words, speaking of the slavery issue in America, were, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." He was quoting from Luke 11:17, in which Jesus’ enemies claimed Jesus could cast out demons because He was in league with the devil himself Jesus replied, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth" (KJV) "It is the duty of nations as well as of men to owe their dependence on the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and transgressions in humble sorrow...yet with assured hope that genuine repentance will lead to mercy and pardon." Abraham Lincoln President Lincoln, a devoted Bible reader, claimed the Bible moved him to issue his Emancipation Proclamation, freeing America’s slaves, in 1863. He noted especially the words of Exodus 6:5: "I [God] have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage" (KJV). Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural Address "Fellow countrymen: At this second appearing to take the oath of the Presidential office, there is less occasion for an extended address than there was at the first...The progress of our arms, upon which all else chiefly depends, is as well known to the public as to myself; and it is, I trust, reasonably satisfactory and encouraging to all. With high hope for the future, no prediction in regard to it is ventured... "Neither party expected for the war, the magnitude, or the duration, which it has already attained. Neither anticipated that the cause of the conflict might cease with, or even before, the conflict itself should cease. Each looked for an easier triumph, and as a result less fundamental and astounding. Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes His aid against the other...The prayers of both could not be answered; that of neither has been answered fully...If we shall suppose that American Slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South, this terrible war, as the woe due to those by whom the offence came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a Living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope - fervently do we pray - that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said 'The judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.' "With malice toward none; charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation's wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow and his orphan - to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations." Immediately afterwards, Lincoln kissed the Bible, bowed, and retired from the platform. Abraham Lincoln's 2nd inaugural address, March 4th, 1865. "Intelligence, patriotism, Christianity, and a firm reliance, are still competent to adjust, in the best way, all our present difficulty". "The philosophy of the school room in one generation will be the philosophy of government in the next." "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in morality and religion." Theodore Roosevelt, “To every man who faces life with real desire to do his part in everything, I appeal for a study of the Bible." President Theodore Roosevelt Woodrow Wilson, "America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures. Ladies and gentlemen, I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I as of every man and woman in this audience that from this night on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great book of revelations. That if they would see America free and pure they will make their own spirits free and pure by this baptism of the Holy Scripture." Woodrow Wilson, 1911, pre-Presidential campaign speech. “I have a very simple thing to ask of you. I ask every man and woman in this audience that from this day on they will realize that part of the destiny of America lies in their daily perusal of this great Book (the Bible)." President Woodrow Wilson Herbert Hoover, "The study of the Bible is a post-graduate course in the richest library of human experience." President Herbert Hoover Harry Truman, "The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in the right for anybody except the state. President Harry S. Truman
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
I've posted much of what you have posted here in the past, though probably not in such quantity. The haters of Christ will refuse to see that it was through the Grace of God that this nation came to be and it will only be through the grace of God that she will continue. When a nation turns it's back on God, you can be sure swift destruction to follow. Good Job!
MY "insane reality"? Which one of us worships a mythical being? Which one of us believes in virgin birth? Which one of us believes in life after death?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Yes,that is exactly what I mean. Have you ANY idea how ignorant and dopey this makes you look?? Nowhere near as dopey as those so blind they try to deny it. I guess you are going to say you never heard a Minister talk about "killing a commie for Christ!" back in the 60's? But it is irrefutable that the Founders of this America by and large were INDEED Christians - many devout. Yeah,just like my army records kept identifying ME as a Christian,despite me changing my religious affiliation to "Heathen" after having a Catholic Chaplain tell me I was a Heathen because I wouldn't join his cult. I kept changing it back every time I got my hands on my records,and somebody kept changing it back to Christian. I still have my "Heathen" dog tags,though. The ONLY reason the nation is now an EPIC FAIL is exactly because Christian ethics and principles were shoved out the door - beginning in the early 1960s. No,it's because narrow-minded fools like you allowed yourselves to be played in order to vote for the "God-Fearing candidates",like Boy Jorge Bush. You voted for what was good for your church,not what was good for the country.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
That's always your defensive response when you are losing.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
That has to be some of the lamest shit I have ever read. Are you REALLY that insecure about your religious beliefs that you think homosexuality is going to become more popular and powerful?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
That's the same place my eyes glazed over before. It's moronic.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
More copy and paste bullshit "snap shots in time" of various letters written during these mens long lives to highlight a religious belief. Churches have been pushing this propaganda since the country was founded. It's a propaganda piece,comrade! Some of those men were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on. And of course no church newsletter is going to include any of this.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Remind me again when the Founding Fathers wanted religions laws to be the law of the land,loser.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
WOW! And all of that is original to you,huh? Isn't that another claim you are making? Do you REALLY think this is the first time I have seen that shit?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Impossible! Everything he posts is original to him. I know this because he said so right on this thread. The haters of Christ will refuse to see that it was through the Grace of God that this nation came to be and it will only be through the grace of God that she will continue What does God have against all those other people? Maybe they are all homos? Has anybody tried to tell your God that according to legend his only boy (born by another man's wife who we are supposed to believe was a virgin,btw) only hung out with hairly-legged men and talked about how we should all "Love your fellow man!?" Sounds to me like that Jesus fella might have been a homo. You should have him investigated.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Prove it fool.
I think there is only one person that you hate more than Christ and that's yourself.
Did the voices in your head tell you to write that? Or maybe you had a vision?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I don't hate Christ. He's dead. I hate the superstitious fools that want to run the world according to their superstitious beliefs. They used to burn non- believers in pots of boiling oil or at the stake,and if they/you had the chance,you would do it again.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
You said there were founders that for expedient sake went along to get along and changed their minds on their Christian beliefs later. Prove it.
Hey, some people still cut the heads off of unbelievers, chop off hands and feet. Some people used to be thrown in to volcanoes to appease the Gods. The one constant theme through out humanity is the belief in something outside of themselves whether that be wrong or not.
www.lonang.com/exlibris/locke/ Learn a little something.
THAT is a keeper, Red. You've done yeoman's work.. Excellent citations which ridicule the claim that America's Founders were NOT by and large Christian - aka in Pete's OWN words: "Taliban" and "fundies". It should also be noted that even IF some of the Founders of America were not devoutly Christian nor attended church, they publicly recognized and admitted the importance AND necessity of a Christian-ethic and moral system within our governance in order for their Republic to thrive - never mind survive. These Founders and their respective advocacy of Christianity were NOT invoked or written under duress (as suggested by Pete) while any claim of coercion is utterly ludicrous.
Prove it fool. "Persecution"?? Ya gotta be kidding me. These Christian Founders went out of their way to be (wait for the *IRONY*.....) tolerant. This is why from the very beginning there was no State Religion. Meanwhile, I'm sure Pete will be scouring Google for all that proof that the first American "fundie" and Taliban" coerced their co-Founders to say kind words about the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ...OR ELSE. Tick-tick-tick.....
Nor me, but people who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else the same as everyone else with the small exception of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be viciously villified and should not be discriminated against.
Wrong. You need to do some very basic research, and you will easily see this is most certainly not so.
Wrong. You need to do some very basic research, and you will easily see this is most certainly not so. Ok, I'll exclude Sodom and Gomorrah.... .....recent Frisco Gay Parades, Gay Day at Disney, and militant "We Proud, We're Loud, and We're In Your Face" street orgies and protests.
Who are YOU to dictate to and define the right of those to "viciously vilify"? Is the First Amendment in effect it is it not? Oh wait - the opinions of Christians, aka "Taliban" and "Fundies" - and intolerance and bigotry targeted against THEM - is ok, huh? ...and should not be discriminated against. Gays are treated like slaves and blacks during the 1940s and 1950s. Somehow I've missed this... Tell me Mike - do you believe certain people...say GAY people should have "Special Rights"? Why is an identical crime committed against both a queer and a straight person treated DIFFERENTLY under the law of the land? Do you believe that is fair? What of "Hate Speech" and "Hate Crimes"? ANY fair-minded, intellectually honest person realizes this is legalized DISCRIMINATION - as is ANY job preference or quota system BASED ON color, creed, race, OR gender.
There are murderers who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everthing else the same as everyone else with the small execption of a different perspective on if killing someone is right. Afterall some in society say killing babies is ok. So killing adults is ok too right? There are pedophiles who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else (think sandusky) the same as everyone with the small exception of a different age orientation and do not deserve to be viciously vilified and should not be discriminated against. I just demonstrated that the "points" you "made" in no way demonstrates that queers are just normal people. Unless you think pedophiles are too.
And there you have it. To the believers is about faith,not being right or wrong.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Wrong. I went thought this maybe 20 years ago,and learned that no amount of evidence in the world will convince people who operate off of faith that they are wrong. I could dig all that up again and it would change nothing.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
You are about as abnormal as they come, Stone.
Every application or document I fill out, or have filled out for the last decade I refuse to mark my race. Have you noticed that usually it is anything to do with the Gov. that want's to know your race? Census, etc. If we are a nation of laws in which every INDIVIDUAL is subject. It doesn't matter race, religion, or the desire to screw the same sex.
Idiot. Now go prove your statement that the founding fathers changed their opinions or religion.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestSo thorough writing is considered feeling. That is quite humorous. So if I wrote two sentences, and used insults and profanity that would be genius right?
#326. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#324)
I DO consider the homosexual lobby as a religion. They are taking a private practice and wanting it made into the law of the land. That is forced acceptance.
#327. To: sneakypete, Biff Tannen, Liberator, SJN, A K A Stone, TooConservative (#321)
Kinda like people like you and your brothers in the Taliban want people to live today.
#328. To: redleghunter (#303)
Say hello to your grandma for me.
#329. To: Biff Tannen (#328)
(Edited)
Heading out for a weekend in the woods (without internet!!)
#330. To: Liberator, sneakypete, SJN, A K A Stone, Biff Tannen, TooConservative (#321)
Liberator: "Pete also fails to acknowledge that the American Founding Fathers by and large were adherents of the 'Cult' of Christianity." Pete: "A easy lie to sell..."
#331. To: Liberator (#325)
Somebody get MENSA on the horn.
#332. To: redleghunter, sneakypete, SJN, A K A Stone, Biff Tannen, TooConservative (#330)
Yes, very interesting. Then the Founders were liars when they said the following about the Bible and Christianity:...
#333. To: redleghunter (#331)
Chef Ramsay would be proud:)
#334. To: Biff Tannen (#328)
Heading out for a weekend in the woods (without internet!!)
#335. To: Liberator, sneakypete, SJN, A K A Stone, Biff Tannen, TooConservative (#332)
Oooops.
#336. To: redleghunter (#335)
#337. To: Liberator (#317)
I'm not wasting my time with you as you continue creating your own insane reality.
#338. To: Liberator (#321)
You mean Christian "fundies" = Taliban....
#339. To: Liberator (#323)
This is why you see nothing but circular reasoning, irrationality, lies, Alinsky-ist debating techniques, and TOTAL avoidance of YOUR case & points.
#340. To: redleghunter (#324)
And yes, I DO consider the homosexual lobby as a religion. They are taking a private practice and wanting it made into the law of the land. That is forced acceptance. They preach their "gospel" under the cloak of "tolerance" and "health" education in our schools. While Christians are not allowed to have a Bible within a city block of a school. They do have their "high priests" and "clerics" who do not reside in marble cathedrals but sitting on the steps of the US Congress and they are called lobbyists.
#341. To: redleghunter (#327)
The true meaning of tolerance is this: you have a position, I have a position, we do not agree with each other's position but depart peacefully. What comes after this is called acceptance. Acceptance would be we have opposing views and one of us backs down and "accepts" the other's position as their own.
#342. To: redleghunter (#330)
#343. To: Liberator (#332)
And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban".
#344. To: redleghunter (#335)
#345. To: SJN (#336)
(Edited)
And we all realize this is merely a very partial list of kooky "fundies" and Christian "Taliban".
#346. To: sneakypete (#342)
Some of those men were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on.
#347. To: sneakypete (#345)
#348. To: SJN (#346)
Prove it fool.
#349. To: SJN (#347)
I think there is only one person that you hate more than Christ and that's yourself.
#350. To: sneakypete (#348)
#351. To: sneakypete (#349)
#352. To: All (#350)
#353. To: redleghunter, sneakypete (#335)
#354. To: SJN, sneakypete (#346)
Pete: "Some of those men [America's Founders] were genuinely true believers their whole lives. Others were believers of convenience in order to get along without persecution,and others changed their minds later on."
#355. To: sneakypete (#256)
"They may be normal for homosexuals and bi-sexuals,but they sure as hell wouldn't be normal for me."
#356. To: Liberator (#269)
"...has universally ALWAYS operated within the closet."
#357. To: Ferret Mike (#356)
"Within ANY society, homosexuality ...has universally ALWAYS operated within the closet."
#358. To: Ferret Mike (#355)
People...of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be and viciously vilified....
#359. To: Ferret Mike (#355)
Nor me, but people who are living normal lives with jobs, school and everything else the same as everyone else with the small exception of a different gender orientation do not deserved to be viciously villified and should not be discriminated against.
#360. To: SJN (#351)
The one constant theme through out humanity is the belief in something outside of themselves whether that be wrong or not.
#361. To: Liberator (#354)
Meanwhile, I'm sure Pete will be scouring Google for all that proof that the first American "fundie" and Taliban" coerced their co-Founders to say kind words about the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ...OR ELSE.
#362. To: A K A Stone (#359)
I just demonstrated that the "points" you "made" in no way demonstrates that queers are just normal people.
#363. To: Liberator (#358)
What of "Hate Speech" and "Hate Crimes"? ANY fair-minded, intellectually honest person realizes this is legalized DISCRIMINATION - as is ANY job preference or quota system BASED ON color, creed, race, OR gender.
#364. To: sneakypete (#360)
And there you have it. To the believers is about faith,not being right or wrong.
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