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Title: Three Articles that help explain Israel
Source:
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod)
URL Source: http://www.wels.net/news-events/for ... december-2008/invisible-church
Published: Jun 24, 2012
Author: various - Noted at end of each article.
Post Date: 2012-06-24 10:03:21 by SJN
Keywords: None
Views: 260593
Comments: 482
The Invisible Church As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Church. The word paints a picture. You see the building in which you worship. It may be a small, white-frame building set on a hill in the quiet countryside. Or it may be a large, stone structure occupying a street corner in a busy city. It’s not unusual for us to think of a building when we think of church. Worship is an important part of our lives, and that worship takes place in a building we love, whether it is fancy or plain. But that is not the way the word church is used in the Bible. In Scripture, church most often refers to people and not to buildings. The church is invisible In the New Testament the word ecclesia is often translated as church. Ecclesia refers to a group of people who have been called together. It is an assembly. Yet even that definition does not fully explain what the church is. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. The church is both visible and invisible. Why would we call a church invisible? You can see a building. You can see the people who gather in that building. Yet we do speak of the church as invisible in the Apostles’ Creed when we confess “I believe in the holy Christian church, the communion of saints.” Sometimes people mistakenly use the term saint to refer to a person who does an abundance of good deeds, someone who helps others. But the Bible uses the term to describe simply a believer. We even distinguish between believers who have been called home to heaven and those who still battle in this world. We speak of saints triumphant and saints militant. The apostle Peter describes these believers as “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God” (1 Peter 2:9). Together all believers form the holy Christian church, a “spiritual house” made up of living stones chosen by God. When the Holy Spirit works faith in our hearts, we become part of this structure. The Lord Jesus can see the faith in our hearts. We, however, can only see the fruits of faith and not the faith itself. Because we cannot see faith, the church is invisible to our eyes. The prophet Elijah did not recognize that there were still seven thousand believers in Israel (1 Kings 19:8-18). He thought that he was the only believer left. Likewise, we cannot always tell whether a person is a believer or an unbeliever. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. Although the church may be invisible to us, the Lord sees his church clearly. “The Lord knows those who are his” (2 Timothy 2:19). At the same time each person knows what is in his or her heart. Trusting in the promises the Lord gives us, we know that we belong to that communion of saints, the church of God. Characteristics of the invisible church This invisible gathering of all believers is not limited by geography. The apostle John reminds us that believers come from different places and “from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9). In addition, the church is not limited by time. All believers who have lived, are now living, and will live until Jesus returns at the end of time—all these believers are part of this church. The church, the body of all believers, is invisible, and it is also universal. Once again we confess this fact in the Third Article of the Apostles’ Creed. “I believe in the holy Christian church.” The first people who used this confession of faith said, “I believe in the holy catholic church.” The word catholic originally had no denominational connotation. It simply meant universal. When catholic became associated with a particular organization, the word Christian was substituted to prevent confusion. In the Apostles’ Creed we confess that we believe that the Lord gathers together everyone whose faith is in Jesus Christ as the Savior. People believe in many things. We say that we believe in our team, in our country, and in people who are dear to us. Likewise, many people believe in some religious figure other than Christ. God’s invisible church gathers together only those people who confess Jesus as their Savior. We distinguish ourselves from the followers of Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and every other religion. We confess that Jesus Christ is true man and true God. We believe that Christ is sinless and perfect and that he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. As the Bible describes the church, it becomes clear that the church is both what we see and what we cannot see. In a world that suggests that it does not matter what you believe as long as you believe, it becomes important to remember that the invisible church gathers together all believers in Christ. Without faith in Jesus we cannot be saved. Without Jesus we have no part in the communion of saints, the gathering of all believers. Jesus makes that clear when he says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). People die. Church buildings may fall apart. Congregations may disband. But the invisible church continues. The Lord has promised that there will always be true believers who are kept faithful by the power of God. “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand” (John 10:27,28). What a comfort it is to know that the Holy Spirit, who calls us to faith, also preserves us in that faith through the gospel in Word and sacraments! It is easy to become attached to a congregation. It is in that fellowship that we listen to the good news of Jesus proclaimed. There we hear that our sins are forgiven. In our congregation we draw close to Jesus as we receive the sacrament of his body and blood. Likewise the building in which a congregation worships may be a special place. It may be the same structure in which we were baptized, confirmed, and married. It reminds us of all the blessings God has showered upon us. But we are part of something that is even more valuable, the holy Christian church. Our triune God has brought us together with people we may never see or know on this side of eternity. Through faith the Lord has made us a part of the congregation of all believers. Right now we are not able to see this church in its entirety. Yet what is invisible to our eyes now will be seen when the Lord returns in glory. What a joy it will be to see all believers from every part of the world and from all times! The day will come when we will gather together and praise the God of grace who gives us membership in his family, the invisible church. That church is not really invisible. It is only invisible to us. God sees it clearly. James Korthals, a professor at Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary, Mequon, Wisconsin, is a member at David’s Star, Jackson. Peter's Picture of the Church 1 Peter 2:4-10 The word "temple" in our modern society usually describes a large, beautiful building which is used for the worship of some god. The use of such temples goes back thousands of years. Peter used it to paint a beautiful word picture of Jesus and his church in 2:4-8. Made up of living stones Jesus is pictured in many ways in John's gospel. Peter adds his own picture here, when he writes, "The Lord Jesus is the living stone" (v. 4). In verse 6 he gives the original source for this statement (Isaiah 28:16), where God said, "Look! I'm laying a stone in Zion [another name for Israel], a very special cornerstone of great value, and the person who believes in him will never be disappointed." In the ancient world the cornerstone was more than a stone on which was carved the date of construction. The cornerstone determined the length, the width, and the height of the building, so that the whole building depended on that cornerstone. That is the picture Peter uses to describe the church in verse 5a, where he says, "And since you are living stones, as you come to him you are built up into a spiritual temple," of which Jesus is the cornerstone. The church is built on Jesus, and around Jesus, the cornerstone. And it is made up of people who are like Jesus--perfectly holy beings in God's sight. That is the way God sees every person who truly believes in Jesus as his or her Savior, because our God-given faith makes us new creatures who are perfectly holy in God's sight, and every such person "will never be disappointed" on Judgment Day. Then Peter explains in verse 7, "This means that he's of great value to you people who believe in him, but for those who don't believe in him, 'the stone which the builders [the Jewish nation as a whole] decided was no good, is the very one which has become the cornerstone'; and 'the stone which will make people stumble, and the rock which will make them fall.' "How clear Peter makes it that Jesus is the difference between eternal life and eternal damnation. We are now a holy group of priests Next Peter uses a new metaphor in verse 5 when he says that the believers who come to Jesus as living stones "are built up into a spiritual temple, to be a holy group of priests, who offer up spiritual sacrifices which God is happy to receive." He continues in verses 9,10, "There was a time when you were no people at all, but now you are God's people. You who never knew God's mercy have now received his mercy." Praise the Lord! Peter is reminding us that there was a time when we were all outsiders, so far as God is concerned, unbelievers who had never heard of the triune God. But now that we have heard the good news and have come to believe it, we are God's people, while the Jews, as a nation, have rejected their Messiah and are outsiders. Now you must take note of the fact that every believer is a priest whose principal occupation it is to offer spiritual sacrifices to our triune God each day of our lives. Yes, from morning to evening we offer our God our thanks and praises for the undeserved love he has shown us by sending first his Son to atone for all our sins, and then his Holy Spirit who has brought us to believe the good news that all our sins are forgiven by Jesus' death on the cross, so that we are now God's children who are perfectly holy in God's sight. Our task as priests is to also bring him our other sacrifices. First there are our time and our talents which we spend carrying out the different tasks we can do as members of our congregations. In some cases we may give our Lord all of our time and talents to serve as pastors, teachers, missionaries, or church office workers. All of us, whether we are active workers or not, can offer the Lord a portion of our financial resources, which represent the value of our time spent in some gainful occupation. And of course the temple in which we serve is known to us as the church, the whole body of believers. The picture of the church that Peter gives us here is perhaps the most complete picture to be found anywhere in the Bible. Julian Anderson is a retired pastor and seminary professor living in Naples, Florida. Samuel: A Judge in Israel Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. Think back 300 years before Samuel. Following the death of those who carved a Jewish homeland out of Canaan, “another generation grew up, who knew neither the Lord nor what he had done for Israel” (Judges 2:10). To awaken his spiritually-anesthetized people, God enlisted neighboring nations to harass, enslave, and terrorize Israel. Slapped to consciousness, God’s people recognized their sin, pleaded for forgiveness, and prayed for relief. God then raised up leaders—judges—who with the Lord’s power pushed back the oppressors. Moral and spiritual health flourished. But “when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their fathers . . .” (Judges 2:19). Repenting to God This cycle of godlessness, oppression, repentance, freedom, upright living, and a return to godlessness repeated itself until Samuel. Remember Eli and his sons? 1 Samuel 7 brings us to a repentance and freedom section of that cycle and to Samuel as Israel’s final judge. The Ark of the Covenant remained in the border town of Kiriath-Jearim for 20 years after the Philistines captured it and then returned it to stem a Lord-induced plague. During those two decades “all the people of Israel mourned and sought after the Lord” (7:2). To confirm that renaissance of faith, Samuel summoned his countrymen to a spiritually essential, but politically provocative, act—national purification and rededication. Israel was not a free country. Philistine overlords kept close watch. When their surveillance noticed huge numbers of Israelites staging at Mizpah (literally, “look out point”), their early-warning alarms wailed. Mizpah was a military gem mounted in hills about eight miles north of Jerusalem. Soon the sound of Philistine marching boots, the clank of armor, and the bellow of war trumpets echoed off Mizpah. “When the Israelites heard of it, they were afraid . . .” (7:7). No doubt. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers (dare we add personal problems or financial difficulties) clamor for attention. Victory through God Samuel, however, urged Israel to fasten on God. “Do not stop crying out to the Lord our God for us, that he may rescue us” (7:8). Strength was not in their military might, but in the Lord’s omnipotence. God confirmed that. With Israeli knees bent in prayer and without an Israeli sword unsheathed, God’s deafening thunder routed the Philistine army. Panicked, the troops stumbled south toward safety. Their backs made easy targets. The Philistine losses that day did not completely free Israel. We await Saul and David to accomplish that. Israel, however, did enjoy a season of peace with Philistia and, as a fringe benefit, with the Amorites. Concentrating on the Lord is daunting when dangers clamor for attention. To mark the victory, Samuel set up a monument called Ebenezer (“stone of help”). Ebenezer stones (church cornerstones, wedding anniversaries, birthdays) remind us, “Thus far has the Lord helped us.” But our most conclusive proof that there’s always an upside in our downside world is Jesus, “the stone the builders rejected [that] has become the capstone” (1 Peter 2:7). James A. Aderman is pastor at Fairview, Milwaukee.
(The Following article should help to illuminate why the Nation of Israel and it's people have seen thousands of years of turmoil).
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#410. To: buckeroo (#409)
I wasin the U.S. Army, which has beaucoup helicopters. I was never really interested in the U.S. Air Force.
Amazing dude, you found one of my all time favorite songs and performers. This song's core story isabout the great Buddy Holly's death in a plane crash.
The you might be interested in this. Maybe you can post it. http://music.yahoo.com/blogs/stop-the-presses/don-mclean-american-pie-20-things-might-not-212950674.html
This song's core story isabout the great Buddy Holly's death in a plane crash. 9. But McLean also expressed disappointment that the Holly references were all some people got out of the tune. "The fact that Buddy Holly seems to be the primary thing that people talk about when they talk about 'American Pie' is kind of sad. But fine with me," he said in a radio interview. "Because only the beginning is about Buddy Holly, and the rest of it goes on and talks about America and politics and the country, and trying to catch some kind of a special feeling that I had about my country, especially in 1970 and '71, when it was very turbulent."
Yeah,that must be it.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I disagree. As an AMERICAN I have earned my right to speak my piece. With me it is always about America and the Bill of RIGHTS,first,last,and always. It's what separates us all from the REAL Heathens in the world.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Yeah,I do. Then again,I have an advantage over you. There are no voices arguing in my head to get me confused.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
I'm betting Fire Island,Yu-Tard,and the rest of the glitter brigade are as giddy as schoolgirls today.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
With me it is always about America and the Bill of RIGHTS,first,last,and always. It's what separates us all from the REAL Heathens in the world. HEAR! HEAR! ;)
"A friend will calm you down when you are angry, but a best friend will skip beside you with a baseball bat singing, "someone's gonna get it"
ROFLMAO! The Orthodox crowd doesn't HAVE any perspective that isn't issued to them. You are like mindless parrots,babbling whatever nonsense is taught to you without even thinking about what you are saying. Because like your leftie pals that are honest enough to vote Dim,you go by FEELINGS,not thinking.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
It's amazing how circular political dogma can be,isn't it?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
All you have are insults. You haven't backed up your statement with a fact, any shred of evidence what so ever. You're a God hating blow hard. That's all there is to your mouth breathing wheezing self.
lol You get mad at him because he refuses to change his worldview to yours and you start insulting him.
. If you've been following this thread, you'd know what I and others have referred to. Which was a statement from Pete that some of the founders changed their minds on their Christianity and only went along to get along, as it were. We've challenged him to prove his thesis. Thus far it's been dead air, except for the insults.
. And there it is. They also get mad because they can't trick you into spending hours or even days researching and posting data they will then ignore. I don't work for any of those people,and if they want me to do any research they need to pay me.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Where? In your outhouse? You're a joke. And legend in your own alleged mind.
LOL - wait; Are you referring to Biffy? Following an actual conversation? Using his entire brain wattage of a Firefly in August? Nope. NEVER HAPPENING. This is a guy whose idea of an intellectual exercise is driving his van down by the river, doing a four warm six-packs in 24 hours, reading mildew-coated 30 year-old "girlie magazines", peeing on his bald tires to "give them life!!", and then heading back to HQ: Mommy's Basement. We've challenged him [Pete the Atheist-Bible Scholar] to prove his thesis. Thus far it's been dead air, except for the insults. And we've seen a brilliant rebuttal too. *snicker*
Wanna re-examine what you're "HEAR-HEARING" about, "heathen"? ;-)
So...in YOUR opinion ALL who serve have MORE First Amendment "rights" then anyone else? Where do you make up this crap? What you hate about Pete is he comes about his opinions honestly by actually using his mind to absorb information and talking intelligently about it. HUH?? Pete knows ZIP about the Bible OR Scripture, or the concept of God. Tell me - how then can he "talk intelligently" about a subject of which he is utterly ignorant? (not that you don't have a vested interest in defending the anti-Christian as an anti-Christian yourself, Warlock....Btw - Are you good witch or a bad witch, eh?)
WOW! Seems like it was just last week I was one of your favorite posters. Just a minute.....,it WAS last week. Then I made some posts about the dogma of your religious cult that you disagreed with,and suddenly I'm stupid. Typical "Christian". Life ruled by hatred and superstition,and looking for vengeance against anyone who disagrees.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
;-) Is God telling you to be a drama queen? Enquiring minds,and all that.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
A better question might be "How can anyone talk intelligently about a subject based on superstition,fear,and lies?" Tell us all again about your moral God impregnating another man's wife with his child,and then allowing his child to be murdered. A God with 7 deadly sins that will send his followers to burn in hell for eternity,while calling himself a "Jealous God". Yup,sounds loving and caring to me!
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Just a minute.....,it WAS last week. Yeah...and then you stopped taking your medication. Good luck with that script renewal. You're insane.
"Vengeance"?? LOL! I believe you're confusing that with "ridicule". Hey - You're saying your piece *with* peace. Stop being so paranoid, you anti-Christian kook.
You're ignorance of the Bible is stunning! But your kookiness is so cute! Hey - tell us again how your Official Atheists' Handbook explains how Something creates itself out of Nothing. Thanks.
Really? Which one of us believes in virgin birth,hears voices,and thinks there is life after death?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Ok,so correct me. Doesn't the Holy Bible claim that God was the father of Jesus? Yes,or no? Wasn't the mother of Jesus married to another man? Yes,or no? On top of that,wasn't she married to another man and supposed to have still be a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus? Yes,or no? Hey - tell us again how your Official Atheists' Handbook explains how Something creates itself out of Nothing. Actually,that would by your Big Ranger in the Sky that claims to have created the whole universe out of nothing.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Which one of us believe "Fundies" control the goobermint, blames they diarrhea on Fundies, believes Fundies affect queers "rights" to screw each other, and hears voices telling you "FUNDIES FUNDIES FUNDIES!!!! TALIBAN TALIBAN TALIBAN!!!" Which one of us believes NOTHING made SOMETHING (us) for NO REASON?
Keep on trucking, son! Pretty soon you'll start at Genesis: "IN THE BEGINNING...." I'm proud of ya!
HUNDREDS of eye-witnesses at the time say otherwise. But because Anderson Cooper or Geraldo weren't there, YOU don't believe it, don't understand it, won't consider the evidence, and won't do either no matter were Jesus Christ to appear before you IN PERSON. "Fear"? You bet. Hell Forever IS something to fear.
That must be you,because it isn't me. I KNOW that fundies WANT to control the government,but that's not the same thing. Do you deny that's what you want? blames they diarrhea on Fundies, believes Fundies affect queers "rights" to screw each other, and hears voices telling you "FUNDIES FUNDIES FUNDIES!!!! TALIBAN TALIBAN TALIBAN!!!" Sounds like you are having a Midol Moment to me. You are totally hysterical.
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
LOL! They had all been dead hundreds of years before the Bible was written. But because Anderson Cooper or Geraldo weren't there, YOU don't believe it, This is beyond belief. I quit believing around 1958. That's when I told my parents I didn't believe in God or that if there were a God that he was worth worshipping, and wasn't going to church anymore. Are you so delusional that you think those two had any influence over me? And are you such a big liar now that you will claim you think they have influence over me now? won't consider the evidence, What evidence would that be?
"It is impossible to talk reason with those who can only parrot Party Slogans." sneakypete Sept 2011 Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs Steve Jobs,life-long Dim,and major Barry Soetoro supporter.
Which means WHAT?? That because an event is written after the death of participants and witnesses that the event(s) never happened?? Like I said - you required Geraldo there AND cameramen. Sorry - it didn't quite happen that way 2000 years ago. There are places, people, and events that are ALL corroborated by scholars and historians - who I'd say are and were slightly above YOUR pay scale. This is beyond belief. I quit believing around 1958. That's when I told my parents I didn't believe in God or that if there were a God that he was worth worshipping, and wasn't going to church anymore. Are you so delusional that you think those two had any influence over me? Whatever. You are responsible for your own investigation into your faith...and skepticism. In fact - it's even your RIGHT to Choose! And are you such a big liar now that you will claim you think they have influence over me now? Frankly, I don't know WHAT you're alluding to now. It's a past and bad experience that you'll have to address. Sorry that it was so traumatic. won't consider the evidence, What evidence would that be? I'm afraid I'm not qualified to conduct a Bible Study, but maybe Red could guide you in that area if you're curious.
Fundies aren't close to controlling ANY portion of a secular humanist-Atheist goob. IF they were (as when the original Founders were rockin' and rollin') we'd see a totally different government and adherence to the constitution. But since EVERYONE wants to control government, why shouldn't Fundies have their fair share of representation? I mean they DO comprise a great demographic of Americans, don't they? Sounds like you are having a Midol Moment to me. You are totally hysterical. Just channeling the Inner-Pete.
Just channeling the Inner-Pete. You are TOO funny!
I do remember Pete getting asked to support that. But RedSomethingOrOther was also demanding he read some hard-to-read paragraph or two about tolerance and such. A tedious read, I tried several times but gave up due to boredom. It does get tedious with these extreme anti-homo types who try to assert the basis of Christianity is that homo's will go to hell. Besides, with even a elementary glance at how politicians behave how can you even doubt that the founding politicians said whatever it took to get elected. If they thought saying Christian sounding things would get them elected I have no doubt they'd say it. Is it only these days you can't believe anything a politician says? Have you put the politicians of old on a pedestal and worship their words as if it's scripture? Ya, many do. Then you have the idiots like Liberator searching the web far and wide for homo articles so he can stamp his feet and talk about how bad they are, while on the next post he's going on and on with such homo-erotica you have to wonder why he even thinks of that stuff and how many yukon links has he followed anyway. With all that going on it's hard to get up any energy to refute something or even discuss it with them. They really haven't got a very firm grip on their own lives apparently, and here they are trying to convince others to switch sides or something. Anyway, enough tedium of my own. Now we're even.
. I presented actual quotes with references. Is that 'fact' enough, or do you just want to change the subject because you have nothing in return?
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
Pete, how are you feeling by the way?
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
Pete knows and cares not to tell us so. He has been in on the threads at LP numerous times, so he will throw out what atheist one liners like "evidence" and "proof" when it has been presented. It is clear that all the NT books were penned and complete before the turn of the first Century, most theologians put it at around AD 96 with Revelation. What is interesting is the majority of the Gospels and Epistles were complete prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. So that when Paul said in Corinthians the below, most witnesses were still alive and some then asleep: From I Corinthians chapter 15:(for context, provided is the entire chapter 15) 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead? 30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour? 31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" 33 Do not be deceived: "Evil company corrupts good habits." 34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame. 35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain-- perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord. (NKJV)
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
LOL!!! So you are applying today's politicians to those who actually fought in the Revolution, some losing their homes and families. Nice try. What makes your comments interesting is you assume there was "something else" other than Christians living in America at the time.
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
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#411. To: Ferret Mike (#408)
#412. To: A K A Stone (#411)
#413. To: Ferret Mike (#412)
#414. To: Ferret Mike (#412)
Amazing dude, you found one of my all time favorite songs and performers.
#415. To: buckeroo (#399)
The devil got your soul?
#416. To: Ferret Mike (#401)
As a combat veteran who was in an elite combat arms unit, Pete has earned the right to speak his piece.
#417. To: SJN (#402)
So I guess we must go on 'faith' that you know what you're talking about.
#418. To: buckeroo (#403)
But, tomorrow the sparklers go off!
#419. To: sneakypete (#416)
I disagree. As an AMERICAN I have earned my right to speak my piece.
#420. To: SJN, redleghunter (#407)
The Orthodox crowd misses your perspective:)
#421. To: Ferret Mike (#408)
Throwing a grenade there would make even less sense then, as interfering with outsourcing jobs is a grave crime in some Republican circles. Why, if I did it now as a civilian I'm sure I would be mugged by the TSA and Homeland Security both for my traitorous nature.
#422. To: sneakypete (#417)
#423. To: SJN (#422)
(Edited)
All you have are insults.
Say hello to your grandma for me.
#424. To: Biff Tannen (#423)
#425. To: Biff Tannen (#423)
lol You get mad at him because he refuses to change his worldview to yours and you start insulting him.
#426. To: sneakypete (#425)
And there it is.
#427. To: SJN, Biffy, sneakypete (#424)
(Edited)
f you've been following this thread, you'd know what I and others have referred to. Which was a statement from Pete that some of the founders changed their minds on their Christianity and only went along to get along, as it were.
#428. To: Murron (#419)
HEAR! HEAR! ;)
#429. To: Ferret Mike, TooConservative, redleghunter, SJN, sneakypete (#401)
As a combat veteran who was in an elite combat arms unit, Pete has earned the right to speak his piece.
#430. To: Liberator (#426)
You're a joke. And legend in your own alleged mind.
#431. To: Liberator (#428)
Wanna re-examine what you're "HEAR-HEARING" about, "heathen"?
#432. To: Liberator (#429)
(Edited)
how then can he "talk intelligently" about a subject of which he is utterly ignorant?
#433. To: sneakypete (#430)
WOW! Seems like it was just last week I was one of your favorite posters.
#434. To: sneakypete (#430)
Typical "Christian". Life ruled by hatred and superstition,and looking for vengeance against anyone who disagrees.
#435. To: sneakypete (#432)
Tell us all again about your moral God impregnating another man's wife with his child,and then allowing his child to be murdered.
#436. To: Liberator (#433)
You're insane.
#437. To: Liberator (#435)
Tell us all again about your moral God impregnating another man's wife with his child,and then allowing his child to be murdered. You're ignorance of the Bible is stunning!
#438. To: sneakypete (#436)
Which one of us believes in virgin birth,hears voices,and thinks there is life after death?
#439. To: sneakypete (#437)
#440. To: sneakypete (#432)
A better question might be "How can anyone talk intelligently about a subject based on superstition,fear,and lies?"
#441. To: Liberator (#438)
Which one of us believe "Fundies" control the goobermint,...
#442. To: Liberator (#440)
HUNDREDS of eye-witnesses at the time say otherwise.
#443. To: sneakypete, redleghunter (#442)
(Edited)
LOL! They had all been dead hundreds of years before the Bible was written.
#444. To: sneakypete (#441)
That must be you,because it isn't me. I KNOW that fundies WANT to control the government,but that's not the same thing.
#445. To: Liberator (#444)
Sounds like you are having a Midol Moment to me. You are totally hysterical.
#446. To: SJN (#424)
Which was a statement from Pete that some of the founders changed their minds on their Christianity and only went along to get along, as it were.
Say hello to your grandma for me.
#447. To: sneakypete (#396)
Why? You will just deny it. You deal in faith,not facts.
#448. To: sneakypete (#420)
Because like your leftie pals that are honest enough to vote Dim,you go by FEELINGS,not thinking.
#449. To: Liberator, sneakypete, GarySpFc (#443)
won't consider the evidence, What evidence would that be?
#450. To: Biff Tannen (#446)
Besides, with even a elementary glance at how politicians behave how can you even doubt that the founding politicians said whatever it took to get elected. If they thought saying Christian sounding things would get them elected I have no doubt they'd say it. Is it only these days you can't believe anything a politician says? Have you put the politicians of old on a pedestal and worship their words as if it's scripture? Ya, many do.
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