Mexican Invasion
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Title: President Obama Signs Order To Stop Deportation Of Young Undocumented Immigrants
Source:
GUARDIAN UK
URL Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201 ... ented-immigrants?newsfeed=true
Published: Jun 15, 2012
Author: Ed Pilkington
Post Date: 2012-06-15 11:23:51 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 72185
Comments: 112
The Obama administration has announced a dramatic move to placate the rising anger of Hispanic communities across America by offering a partial Dream Act to young law-abiding immigrants without documents who will now no longer live under the threat of deportation and will have the right to work. The move will take effect immediately and could have an impact on 800,000 young immigrants, largely Hispanic, who came to the US as children and though hard-working and law-abiding have lived for years under the shadow of deportation. The department of homeland security said that those who demonstrate that they meet the criteria will be eligible to be taken off the deportation list for a period of two years, subject to renewal, and will be eligible to apply for work authorization. "Our nation's immigration laws must be enforced in a firm and sensible manner," said the secretary of homeland security, Janet Napolitano. "But they are not designed to be blindly enforced without consideration given to the individual circumstances of each case. Nor are they designed to remove productive young people to countries where they may not have lived or even speak the language. Discretion, which is used in so many other areas, is especially justified here." The Obama administration has come under growing criticism in recent months for failing to deliver on its promises to restrict deportation to the most serious criminal offenders. The disappointment expressed about the high levels of deportations has led to speculation it could damage the president's chances of being re-elected in November given the importance of the Latino voting population. The initiative goes a large way to meeting the desire of Hispanic communities for a so-called Dream Act that would grant young undocumented Latinos a pathway to citizenship. It promises to be a significant measure in an election year in which Latino voters could prove crucial in key swing states – some 500,000 new voters are created every year when legal Hispanic youths turn 18. The breaking news of the change in policy was received ecstatically by Latino and progressive organisations. "This is a bold move, a smart move by the White House. It relates to the most decent, innocent undocumented folks in this country and we applaud the president's initiative," said Angela Kelley, an immigration expert at the Center for American Progress. The new deal will be open to anyone who: • came to the US before the age of 16 and is under 30 years old; • have continuously resided in the United States for a least five years preceding the date of this memorandum and are present in the United States at the moment; • are currently in school, have graduated from high school, have obtained a general education development certificate, or are honorably discharged veterans of the Coast Guard or Armed Forces of the United States; • and have not been convicted of any crimes or significant misdemeanours. The one aspect of the Dream Act that is yet to be achieved is the right to citizenship or permanent residency for young undocumented immigrants. Kelley said that the battle for that reform would continue. "We need Congress to step up and finish the job," she said
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#5. To: Brian S (#0)
...I'm just SURE we can count on O'romney to repeal this globalist legislation...along with the Patriot Act, Universal health-care, NDAA, drones spying on Americans, seal the borders, repeal "free trade" and end these wars that are killing MILLIONS of innocent people...all for the MIC...yeah, that's the ticket/s... Ronmey is just another turd selected from the same cesspool as the Kenyan...he's just white. Globalists traitors...each and every one of them...only the stupid people haven't figured the game out just yet
...no, the REALLY scary part is that people believe there's any difference that matters...
Uh, chyeah, o-kay, Magoo.
These guys are idiots to their own demise. This is a political move that will further slow our economy and keep unemployment up.
As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. -Proverbs 27:17 (NKJV)
You forgot the killing of baby seals... How idiotic and myopic does one have to be to dismiss the ongoing Scorched Earth policy of 0buma & Co. and presume Romney will continue these SAME policies? Have you been paying attention to 0buma's "governance", his Cabinet, his Czars, AND his 100% record on sabotaging the country? There are DEGREES of fascism, statism, Communism and outright destruction of America "as we know it" that Romney will NEVER come close to executing. The analogous "ticket" is about surviving Armageddon vs. a war. There is QUITE a difference between that - as well as between a bowl of dog sh*t and an old bowl of Hormel Chili.
They're not idiots; They know EXACTLY what they're doing with respect to the lack of border enforcement, and the aiding and abetting of a ten-year-long illegal invasion of at least 30 million. The previous Administration (that would be Dubya and GOP azz-hats who set the precedent back in 2001 when they could have easily halted it) are just as indictable and treasonous in this regard. Why did THEY enable the Invasion?? The accrued unimpeded LARGE invasion since the so-called "war on terror" in 2001 is now a SHTF situation. Today's crummy economy, unemployment, and the social services feeding frenzy due to the illegal invasion and bi-partisan insanity was due to break us.
I see opportunities for Romney and the GOP to resist this, ways to play both ends against the middle on the Hispanic vote. But they have the guts or even the desire to? I guess we'll have to wait to find out. I'm not exactly holding my breath on it. I expect the Stain and Lady Lindsey will be out to support the Kenyan's shamnesty-by-any-means within the hour and condemn anyone who criticizes it.
...how VERY accepting of you. And Romney is a PROVEN liar and has proved this over and over. Why do YOU believe ANYTHING he says he will or won't do? Are you seriously THAT gullible.
Just as planned.... They need a permanent underclass to vote for them or other wise they will just end up as a footnote in history..... not to mention a bad memory too!!!
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5!! Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0!!
And I predict this will backfire on them big time, just like everything else they've tried lately...
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5!! Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0!!
"Comparing side by side the words and political stances of Republican and Democratic presidential candidates Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama. Includes topics like universal health care, gun rights, energy, NDAA, the Patriot Act, Iran, sanctions, economic stimulus. bank and auto bailouts, civil rights, TARP, the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, campaign donations, and more. Thanks for watching & please share! Compiled with videos from news, interviews, rally footage, and more, IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE FAIR USE ACT."
"If men through fear, fraud or mistake, should in terms renounce and give up any essential natural right, the eternal law of reason and the great end of society, would absolutely vacate such renunciation; the right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty, it is not in the power of Man to alienate this gift, and voluntarily become a slave." Samuel Adams, Rights of the Colonists, 1772
I just read a headline that says "Romney sides with Rubio on Obama's Immigration Plan". I'm not surprised, just very sad to see what America has become. Are we so weak that we let Obama act like a "benevolent" dictator? (Verified by his response to the reporter who dared interrupt him when he was speaking..."for the right thing to do for the American people".) Click here to watch and listen to The PJ Tatler video of that segment
I certainly hope so. What are they going to do next? Fire up a printing press that somehow creates jobs instead of worthless dollars?
I suppose they'll grumble and assent to it. The GOP honchos have been pressuring Romney.
At an ice cream social in Milford, N.H., reporters tried to ask former Gov. Mitt Romney whether he would reverse the president's move if he is elected president. Romney initially did not respond. According to NBC's Alex Moe, Romney then came back out from the campaign bus and gave this quick statement. "I believe the status of young people who come here through no fault of their own is an important matter to be considered and should be solved on a long term basis so they know what their future would be in this country. I think the action that the President took today makes it more difficult to reach that long term solution because an executive order is, of course, just a short term matter. It can be reversed by subsequent presidents. I'd like to see legislation that deals with this issue and I happen to agree with Marco Rubio as he considers this issue. He said that this is an important matter, we have to find a long term solution but the President's action makes reaching a long term solution more difficult. If I'm president, we'll do our very best to have that kind of long term solution that provides certainty and clarity for the people who come into this country through no fault of their own by virtue of the actions of their parents." For his part, Rubio released a statement today saying "we should figure out a way to help kids who are undocumented through no fault of their own, but there is also broad consensus that it should be done in a way that does not encourage illegal immigration in the future... Today’s announcement will be welcome news for many of these kids desperate for an answer, but it is a short term answer to a long term problem. And by once again ignoring the Constitution and going around Congress, this short term policy will make it harder to find a balanced and responsible long term one.”
They don't want everybody to be employed, that makes them "individuals"... and not the permanent underclass they require for votes to stay in power.....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5!! Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0!!
No sh*t. NONE of the above correlative similarities are surprising at all. Who's defending Romney on ANY basis that he's not a fellow Statist? Guess who else backed ALL of the above or would have? George W. Bush. The Elite's Fix has been IN regarding these issues - ALL of them: universal health care, gun restrictions (for "crazies" - a GOOD law, btw), creating fake wars, the Patriot Act, TARP, allowing the illegal invasion, colluding with the Federal Reserve, shipping the economy off in a coffin to China, etc ad nauseam. That said, how and why do you and others continue to rationalize, discount and dismiss the ongoing Scorched Earth policy of 0buma & Co. while presuming Romney will continue 0buma's SAME policies? Have you been paying attention to 0buma's "governance", the policies of his Cabinet, his Czars? His 100% record on sabotaging the country? How about ACORN? Solyndra? The Chicago Way? Holder's criminal DoJ and treasonous Fast and Furious? Exposing and hanging our intel contacts out to dry in the ME? Plotting WITH the Russian leader in broad daylight to screw us? Apologizing FOR an America its traditions and heritage that he hates? The destruction and mockery of our credibility and prestige? How about his creation of the coming Race Wars? Allowing the Gulf to be poisoned during the blown oil well? Fomenting Class Warfare? His admission of "spreading the wealth around"? Destroying the coal and oil industries? Man, I could literally spend hours itemizing all the SH*T that 0buma IS and Romney ISN'T. Why ignore all the HUGE differences?? There are DEGREES of fascism, statism, Communism and outright destruction of America "as we know it" that Romney will NEVER come close to executing - NOR does he despise America like 0buma, Holder, and his Dem-fascist-Commie Cronies who will show NO mercy at every federal level IF they get another 4 years. Yes, we will bleed under Romney. We will be further ensconced in intrusive, unreasonable statist policies and laws. But I will not be party to a President who had he his way would have us necklaced, butchered in the street, drawn and quartered - but not before our gold fillings are ripped out of our teeth and nation resembled Uganda, circa Idi Amin.
NOTHING "backfires" when you control the message and the narrative. The MEDIA is owned by the elites and Dem Party. The guy has CRATERED the United States of America in 3+ years - his phantom/checkered past is STILL ignored - and STILL that hasn't "backfired" a single pop-gun. Treason, Extortion, Bribery, Perjury, and Obstruction of Justice USED to be a serious offense. EVEN for Presidents and Attorney Generals.
Yes...plus they need a divided USA. And the destruction of any national identification. The elites want and require WORLD CITIZENS who will have NO problem with loyalty enforcing police state action upon the citizenry. Divide and Conquer has been the MO since "diversity is our strength" became the mantra created by the globalist-socialists academics and elites.
But they have the guts or even the desire to? Of course not; The Fix has been in since 9/11. Dubya and Congress could have easily deported millions of Mexican illegals and thrown down the gauntlet at the border as a result of the so-called "War on Terror". Instead they turned a blind eye to the hispanic invasion and inevitable demographic nightmare and dilution of "Americans". Romney and the GOP will play Kabuki Theater...then grant Amnesty. NOTHING is stopping this runaway freight train. I expect the Stain and Lady Lindsey will be out to support the Kenyan's shamnesty-by-any-means within the hour and condemn anyone who criticizes it. Those two will even dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s.
Rubio has been nothing but a shill for Illegal Invader Amnesty. He is joined by ALL statists who put America's national interest and identity DEAD LAST. Are we so weak that we let Obama act like a "benevolent" dictator? (Verified by his response to the reporter who dared interrupt him when he was speaking..."for the right thing to do for the American people".) That depends on who "we" is. When Bubba got away with giving away technology secrets to China, his Impeachment, Vince Foster-ing and Ron Brown-ing, and all the fatal "accidents" before then, the wheels of America justice fell off once and for all.
It will have almost no effect. The targets of this feel good EO have been here for up to 30 years. GHW Bush didn't deport them, nor Clinton, nor GW Bush, nor Obama. Since George W. Bush they've only been deporting Illegal Aliens with a past felony criminal records, aka "catch and release". Obama's "dream" EO is BS, and will change nothing. They weren't going to get deported before it, and they're still not going to be deported. It's shuck and jive, smoke and mirrors.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Yes actually. New 'stimulus package' is in the works. Stay tuned...
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
The 'they will take our scare jobs' is the best argument to be made and could actually work.
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
The one thing that will make them go home is the economy..... It's actually better down south than it is here right now....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5!! Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0!!
Not totally, there is enough of the "correct" message getting out that some people are waking up and smelling the coffee instead of the "schitt"....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
Could you please elaborate on this? I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that socialism could work?
...so you support a liar that HATES the Constitution, the rule of law, freedoms espoused by the founders and is in total agreement with Obama when it comes to implementing laws that can/will destroy ANY freedoms left. Dictators COUNT on sheep like yourself...I firmly believe Romney will be the next president...TPTB certainly seem to be moving more in his direction...but I will NEVER vote to support a man so intent on destroying that which I love...you madam, are a coward.
WHAT exactly is "sensible" about refusing to enforce US Constitution AND the border? What would be "sensible" is arresting and indicting the traitors who ignore and abuse their oaths of office. And you think mcRomney will be better. IDIOT.
"Most people prefer to believe that their leaders are just and fair, even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which he lives is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all." Michael Rivero
I don't think Michael Rivero is very up on the Christians of this nation. The Christian recognizes that it is God who controls who will be in D.C. and what course this nation takes. Your vote matters even less than you know, if you don't pray for the "gift of this nation" which is God's blessing. It is the soul of the nation that has collapsed. (See through out the Biblical history and the history that has survived, that is, of the men and women who came before that weren't paid or starved for favor of their willingness to skew the knowledge for personal gain in the way of coin and prestige).
IDIOT. YOU, Eric, have FAILED to answer the bell by choosing to ignore my list of 0buma's sabotage and undermining of the USA in action. His course of action WILL continue if re-elected - only the Gates of Hell will be opened. To compare 0buma's clear hatred of Whitey, America, Justice, and Capitalism (heh, here's some irony for YOU, "Capitalist Eric") to Romney's degree of statism is absurd. Btw, name-calling and ignorance is no excuse for stupidity. And surrendering. We have exactly TWO election choices at this point: 1) Bleed and perhaps slowly die 2) Hemorrhage and be butchered Choose wisely.
Did you graduate 5th grade, Jethro?? You reading comprehension isn't real strong, is it? LOL. Tell me...Do you believe 0buma is sabotaging the USA? A simple "YES" or "NO" will do. I firmly believe Romney will be the next president...TPTB certainly seem to be moving more in his direction...but I will NEVER vote to support a man so intent on destroying that which I love...you madam, are a coward. I see - you're an unprincipled shill FOR 0buma. Thanks for playing.
Considering 0buma beat McStain 53%-47% in 2008 a mere 4% of the electorate needs to wake up and smell the java this time around. It's no secret of The Fix and the obvious notion that Globalist-Elites' control the USA goobermint, but why aid and abet their New World Order prematurely? I've often opined that our best chance to slow/reverse this globalist uber-statist trend is with the GOP in power. Not that it's necessarily a "cure-all" - far from it...But why enable another four years of a Fascist-Commie who has despised America his entire life? I don't get that so-called "principle" of remaining neutral during this election if we can't dig up the DNA of George Washington.
I guarantee you more than that have woken up, the media and politicians know it too.... (that's why they are flailing around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off). It's also why you see Obozos "supposed" approval numbers still so high, they are trying to distort the truth and discourage some voters from turning out.... That's the only way I can see that he stands a chance of being re-elected, along with voter fraud of course....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
And then start taking over the party with constitutionalists and slowly but surely get rid of the statists..... That's the biggest reason I've never been in favor of a third party because it will ensure the country will deteriorate into third or fourth world status.....
Political Bumper Stickers: The fastest way in the world to let people know you are a total dumbass.... Total number of Obama 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far......5.. Total number of Romney 2012 bumper stickers I've seen so far...0.. Total number of Obama vs GW Bush 2012 bumper stickers....2!!
Are you saying that the US Constitution was buried with the founders?
Willard M. Romney is a reconquista, running for presidente of Aztlan.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
I heard that Mitty the Monster agreed with 0bama's EO on all these illegal aliens. These politicians are all the same... with ONE exception: Ron Paul.
It's also why you see Obozos "supposed" approval numbers still so high, they are trying to distort the truth and discourage some voters from turning out.... That's the only way I can see that he stands a chance of being re-elected, along with voter fraud of course.... Agree... Bolded is THE only way this frickin' saboteur and Bolshevik-Nazi wins this election.
That's the biggest reason I've never been in favor of a third party because it will ensure the country will deteriorate into third or fourth world status..... Opposing the Third Party option and re-taking the GOP is valid. So is organizing a Third Party; The questions are which option is: a) Easier to facilitate b) Whether an effective winnable Third Party will ever be a possiblity c) Whether we allow the nation to be totally cratered during the next four years d) Whether during a Romneyan Statist Presidency the bleeding can be stopped long enough to remove the SOME statists from within the GOP, their statist laws, their statist agenda, and restore American nationalism and constitutionalism. The nation will remain wounded through a Romney Presidency, but the hope is that along the route the seed of conservatism can take root while rooting out the worst of the RINOs and Globalists.
Comments (45 - 112) not displayed.
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#6. To: Liberator (#4)
And then there is the REALLY scary part of the equation - the notion that some people actually believe there's NO appreciable difference between 0buma and Romney.
#7. To: freedomsnotfree (#6)
...no, the REALLY scary part is that people believe there's any difference that matters...
#8. To: Brian S, liberator, TooConservative (#0)
"We need Congress to step up and finish the job," she said
#9. To: freedomsnotfree (#5)
...I'm just SURE we can count on O'romney to repeal this globalist legislation...along with the Patriot Act, Universal health-care, NDAA, drones spying on Americans, seal the borders, repeal "free trade" and end these wars that are killing MILLIONS of innocent people...all for the MIC...yeah, that's the ticket/s...
#10. To: redleghunter, TooConservative, Brian S (#8)
These guys are idiots to their own demise. This is a political move that will further slow our economy and keep unemployment up.
#11. To: Liberator (#10)
#12. To: Liberator (#9)
There are DEGREES of fascism, statism, Communism and outright destruction of America "as we know it" that Romney will NEVER come close to executing.
#13. To: redleghunter (#8)
This is a political move that will further slow our economy and keep unemployment up.
#14. To: Brian S (#0)
President Obama Signs Order To Stop Deportation Of Young Undocumented Immigrants
#15. To: Liberator (#4)
And then there is the REALLY scary part of the equation - the notion that some people actually believe there's NO appreciable difference between 0buma and Romney.
#16. To: TooConservative, Liberator (#11)
To: Liberator I see opportunities for Romney and the GOP to resist this, ways to play both ends against the middle on the Hispanic vote.
#17. To: CZ82 (#14)
And I predict this will backfire on them big time, just like everything else they've tried lately...
#18. To: Zesta (#16)
#19. To: Zesta (#16)
#20. To: Zesta (#17)
Fire up a printing press that somehow creates jobs instead of worthless dollars?
#21. To: We The People, Capitalist Eric, freedomsnotfree, Zesta, TooConservative (#15)
(Edited)
Comparing side by side the words and political stances of Republican and Democratic presidential candidates Mitt Romney and President Barack Obama. Includes topics like universal health care, gun rights, energy, NDAA, the Patriot Act, Iran, sanctions, economic stimulus. bank and auto bailouts, civil rights, TARP, the Federal Reserve, Ben Bernanke, campaign donations, and more. Thanks for watching & please share! Compiled with videos from news, interviews, rally footage, and more, IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE FAIR USE ACT."
#22. To: CZ82 (#14)
(Edited)
And I predict this will backfire on them big time, just like everything else they've tried lately...
#23. To: CZ82 (#13)
They need a permanent underclass to vote for them or other wise they will just end up as a footnote in history..... not to mention a bad memory too!!!
#24. To: TooConservative (#11)
I see opportunities for Romney and the GOP to resist this, ways to play both ends against the middle on the Hispanic vote.
#25. To: Zesta, TooConservative (#16)
I just read a headline that says "Romney sides with Rubio on Obama's Immigration Plan". I'm not surprised, just very sad to see what America has become.
#26. To: redleghunter, *Border Invasion* (#8)
(Edited)
This is a political move that will further slow our economy and keep unemployment up.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#27. To: Zesta (#17)
Fire up a printing press that somehow creates jobs instead of worthless dollars?
#28. To: CZ82 (#14)
(Edited)
And I predict this will backfire on them big time
#29. To: hondo68 (#26)
They weren't going to get deported before it, and they're still not going to be deported.
#30. To: Liberator (#22)
NOTHING "backfires" when you control the message and the narrative. The MEDIA is owned by the elites and Dem Party.
#31. To: Brian S (#28)
The 'they will take our scare jobs' is the best argument to be made and could actually work.
#32. To: Liberator (#21)
But I will not be party to a President who had he his way would have us necklaced, butchered in the street, drawn and quartered - but not before our gold fillings are ripped out of our teeth and nation resembled Uganda, circa Idi Amin.
#33. To: Liberator (#3)
HUH??!?
#34. To: Capitalist Eric (#33)
To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all." Michael Rivero
#35. To: Capitalist Eric (#33)
And you think mcRomney will be better.
#36. To: freedomsnotfree (#32)
...so you support a liar that HATES the Constitution, the rule of law, freedoms espoused by the founders and is in total agreement with Obama when it comes to implementing laws that can/will destroy ANY freedoms left. Dictators COUNT on sheep like yourself...
#37. To: CZ82 (#30)
There is enough of the "correct" message getting out that some people are waking up and smelling the coffee instead of the "schitt"....
#38. To: Liberator (#37)
a mere 4% of the electorate needs to wake up and smell the java this time around.
#39. To: Liberator (#37)
I've often opined that our best chance to slow/reverse this globalist uber-statist trend is with the GOP in power.
#40. To: Liberator (#37)
I don't get that so-called "principle" of remaining neutral during this election if we can't dig up the DNA of George Washington.
#41. To: Liberator, buckeroo, Capitalist Eric, We The People, CZ82 (#37)
the electorate needs to wake up and smell the java this time around
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#42. To: hondo68 (#41)
#43. To: CZ82 (#38)
I guarantee you more than that have woken up, the media and politicians know it too.... (that's why they are flailing around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off).
#44. To: CZ82, buckeroo, Capitalist Eric, We The People, hondo68 (#39)
And then start taking over the [Republican] party with constitutionalists and slowly but surely get rid of the statists.....
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