LEFT WING LOONS
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Title: Killing babies no different from abortion, experts say
Source:
The Telegraph
URL Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h ... from-abortion-experts-say.html
Published: Mar 1, 2012
Author: Stephen Adams
Post Date: 2012-03-01 18:46:36 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 8942
Comments: 25
Parents should be allowed to have their newborn babies killed because they are “morally irrelevant” and ending their lives is no different to abortion, a group of medical ethicists linked to Oxford University has argued. The article, published in the Journal of Medical Ethics, says newborn babies are not “actual persons” and do not have a “moral right to life”. The academics also argue that parents should be able to have their baby killed if it turns out to be disabled when it is born. The journal’s editor, Prof Julian Savulescu, director of the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics, said the article's authors had received death threats since publishing the article. He said those who made abusive and threatening posts about the study were “fanatics opposed to the very values of a liberal society”. The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva. They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.” Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. “We take ‘person’ to mean an individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this existence represents a loss to her.” As such they argued it was “not possible to damage a newborn by preventing her from developing the potentiality to become a person in the morally relevant sense”. The authors therefore concluded that “what we call ‘after-birth abortion’ (killing a newborn) should be permissible in all the cases where abortion is, including cases where the newborn is not disabled”. They also argued that parents should be able to have the baby killed if it turned out to be disabled without their knowing before birth, for example citing that “only the 64 per cent of Down’s syndrome cases” in Europe are diagnosed by prenatal testing. Once such children were born there was “no choice for the parents but to keep the child”, they wrote. “To bring up such children might be an unbearable burden on the family and on society as a whole, when the state economically provides for their care.” However, they did not argue that some baby killings were more justifiable than others – their fundamental point was that, morally, there was no difference to abortion as already practised. They preferred to use the phrase “after-birth abortion” rather than “infanticide” to “emphasise that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus”. Both Minerva and Giubilini know Prof Savulescu through Oxford. Minerva was a research associate at the Oxford Uehiro Centre for Practical Ethics until last June, when she moved to the Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics at Melbourne University. Giubilini, a former visiting student at Cambridge University, gave a talk in January at the Oxford Martin School – where Prof Savulescu is also a director – titled 'What is the problem with euthanasia?' He too has gone on to Melbourne, although to the city’s Monash University. Prof Savulescu worked at both univerisities before moving to Oxford in 2002. Defending the decision to publish in a British Medical Journal blog, Prof Savulescu, said that arguments in favour of killing newborns were “largely not new”. What Minerva and Giubilini did was apply these arguments “in consideration of maternal and family interests”. While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.” Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.” He said the journal would consider publishing an article positing that, if there was no moral difference between abortion and killing newborns, then abortion too should be illegal. Dr Trevor Stammers, director of medical ethics at St Mary's University College, said: "If a mother does smother her child with a blanket, we say 'it's doesn't matter, she can get another one,' is that what we want to happen? "What these young colleagues are spelling out is what we would be the inevitable end point of a road that ethical philosophers in the States and Australia have all been treading for a long time and there is certainly nothing new." Referring to the term "after-birth abortion", Dr Stammers added: "This is just verbal manipulation that is not philosophy. I might refer to abortion henceforth as antenatal infanticide."
Poster Comment: Obamas kindred spirits.
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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)
Making abortion and contraceptives an election issue will not work out well for 'you people' in the end if it is your desire is to unseat President Obama. Keep up the good work, indeed.
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'! You think people should be forced to buy you people condoms? Is that a constitutional right according to your flakes?
I'm not going to argue the virtues or lack thereof abortion or contraception but it will kill your side in the general election. Every listen to Neil Boortz? He rants and rails almost daily how it is a 3rd-rail issue that the GOP ought not engage. Don't say I didn't warn y'all... ;)
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'! Yeah Neal is ok sometimes. But he is a dumb ass when it comes to religion and abortion. Name the last pro abortion Republican that won the Presidency? Oh there hasn't been one. Lets talk about the morals of it as well as what the law should be. You're a big boy. Is it moral? Should it be legal, and if so under what circumstances? What about after birth like Obama voted for and like this article shows some people favor?
A "baby"?? NO!! That's just a "mass of tissue" that just happens to have a heartbeat IN the womb. Murdering a baby BEFORE it breathes OUTSIDE the womb is called "birth control" and "reproductive rights" by the scissors-wielding, bloody baby-killing Democrats and RINOs. Talk about a delusion. And a Religious Sacrament and symbol of "freedom" for an entire political party: ABORTION. Ugggh.
So....you're suggesting that Republicans ignore the issue of legalized BABY-MURDER aka "abortion" if they want to win this election? What exactly then are we (or you) "winning"?? Btw - it's hardly surprising that you would not argue the "virtues" of saving the life of a preborn baby. HOW DO you and your ilk look in a mirror??
Good questions....Just don't expect any liberal/Leftist/Dem to step up to the plate.
These black hearted monsters are spawns of Satan speaking from the depths of hell. They are completely devoid of all morality. Indeed, their rationalizations leaves little doubt these individuals have a spiritual connection with Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and King Herod. Next their frozen hearts will be advocating the extermination of the disabled, mentally ill, and elderly. The title for this article should be, OXFORD NOW PRODUCES FROZEN, BLACK-HEARTED MONSTERS.
He's just basically telling the politicians to shut up about the social issues (which aren't real important to a lot of people) and not let the Leftards dictate which issues are talked about.... He wants them to concentrate on what ails this country which is government oppression and the economy.....
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
He is wrong. Social issues are winning issues for Republicans. Here is some things Boortz is a dumb ass on. Patriot act, War on Terror, Faggot marriage, Abortion.
Put it this way if you were unemployed and about to lose all that you had would you be more worried about the economy or about the sex life of teenagers???
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
Speaking to The Daily Telegraph, he added: “This “debate” has been an example of “witch ethics” - a group of people know who the witch is and seek to burn her. It is one of the most dangerous human tendencies we have. It leads to lynching and genocide. Rather than argue and engage, there is a drive is to silence and, in the extreme, kill, based on their own moral certainty. That is not the sort of society we should live in.” I find it interesting Prof Julian Savulescu uses "genocide" when referring the the potential actions of opponents, but that his "reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises" does not.
Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’. Should not Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva thank their parents for not evoking the “potential persons” premise.
I haven't heard anyone talking about the sex life of teenagers. He is afraid to discuss abortion on his show, he would get his ass kicked if he let someone smart on. He also supports queer marriage. His reasoning is that it doesn't affect his marriage. Well if a brother and sister could marry that wouldn't affect his life either. Does he support that. If you married your dog that wouldn't affect his marriage either. So he must support that too. I like him on most issues just a few I don't like him on.
Keep up the good work, indeed. That is how the left frames the issues. However, the real issue is the 1st Amendment the Odinga administration is trashing to get free contraceptives and free abortions paid by every citizen.
You didn't answer my question.....
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
The answer is jobs. But if the person talking is for murdering babies. I'd rather they be dead then vote for them. That has nothing to do with some teenagers.
Who do you think are getting a significant amount of the abortions in this country along with those in their 20s....... The point he's trying to make is the public already knows in ad nauseum how the candidates stand on social issues.... It's just a way for the Leftards to control the message that's getting out to the public, instead of getting out the real message on how bad the Leftards suck!!!! They have accomplished nothing worth a schitt and they know it why do you think they are so fixated on making others look worse thatn they do????? He realizes there are a lot of nincompoops in this country that can't figure out anything for themselves, that's why he wants the candidates to control the message that gets out to the public.... Like for instance how bad the economy is, who caused the problem and what are they going to do to fix it.... Or who caused the housing bust and how to fix it..... Who is trying to keep the unemployment rate high therefore getting more people of Welfare and Foodstamps, and how they are going to fix it...... What legislation is taking "YOUR" freedoms away and what are they going to do to fix it..... I don't know about you but these are what is important to me right now, not abortions...... Society itself will eventually fix that problem, it always does....
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
I think they are all important issues. I just don't vote for pro abortin people. If they change their mind on it I can let it pass if I think there is a chance they are genuine. If you vote for someone for murdering babies. I think that tells you a great deal about their character. If they kill babies they will kill us too.
Also that alienates people on the right who are againat abortion. You aren't going to get the sicko vote anyway. So why try to pretend you are something other then you are? By "controlling the message". Don't get me wrong. I mostly like Neil and listen to him quite often. Nobody agrees with everyone all the time. So only I can be right all the time. ;)
If you vote for someone for murdering babies. I think that tells you a great deal about their character. If they kill babies they will kill us too. Yes they are all important but some are "JUST SO MUCH MORE" important right now than others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That means you just won't vote for a Leftard and a few Pubbys......
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
I did vote for a Leftard once. In the primaries. Jerry Brown to try and stop Clinton in 92.
I think the people on the right had it figured out along time ago who was pro or anti abortion..... What they still don't know is who is going to do what to fix the more important problems!!!!! (and that's Neils point)!!!!
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
Why haven't you cut your fingers off for doing that????
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
patriotupdate.com/19378/o...eary-of-social-issues-in- campaign
A taxpayer that votes for Obama is like a chicken that votes for Col Sanders!!!!
#2. To: Brian S (#1)
Making abortion and contraceptives an election issue will not work out well for 'you people' in the end if it is your desire is to unseat President Obama.
#3. To: A K A Stone (#2)
You think people should be forced to buy you people condoms? Is that a constitutional right according to your flakes?
#4. To: Brian S (#3)
Every listen to Neil Boortz? He rants and rails almost daily how it is a 3rd-rail issue that the GOP ought not engage.
#5. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#6. To: Brian S (#3)
(Edited)
I'm not going to argue the virtues or lack thereof abortion or contraception but it will kill your side in the general election.
#7. To: A K A Stone (#4)
Lets talk about the morals of it as well as what the law should be. You're a big boy. Is it moral? Should it be legal, and if so under what circumstances? What about after birth like Obama voted for and like this article shows some people favor?
#8. To: A K A Stone! Redleghunter! ALL (#0)
#9. To: A K A Stone (#4)
But he is a dumb ass when it comes to religion and abortion. Name the last pro abortion Republican that won the Presidency? Oh there hasn't been one.
#10. To: CZ82 (#9)
He's just basically telling the politicians to shut up about the social issues
#11. To: A K A Stone (#10)
He is wrong. Social issues are winning issues for Republicans.
#12. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#0)
While accepting that many people would disagree with their arguments, he wrote: “The goal of the Journal of Medical Ethics is not to present the Truth or promote some one moral view. It is to present well reasoned argument based on widely accepted premises.”
#13. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFc (#0)
The article, entitled “After-birth abortion: Why should the baby live?”, was written by two of Prof Savulescu’s former associates, They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”
#14. To: CZ82 (#11)
Put it this way if you were unemployed and about to lose all that you had would you be more worried about the economy or about the sex life of teenagers???
#15. To: Brian S (#1)
Making abortion and contraceptives an election issue will not work out well for 'you people' in the end if it is your desire is to unseat President Obama.
#16. To: A K A Stone (#14)
Put it this way if you were unemployed and about to lose all that you had would you be more worried about the economy or about the sex life of teenagers???
#17. To: CZ82 (#16)
Put it this way if you were unemployed and about to lose all that you had would you be more worried about the economy or about the sex life of teenagers???
#18. To: A K A Stone (#17)
That has nothing to do with some teenagers.
#19. To: CZ82 (#18)
I don't know about you but these are what is important to me right now, not abortions...... Society itself will eventually fix that problem, it always does....
#20. To: CZ82 (#18)
#21. To: A K A Stone (#19)
I think they are all important issues. I just don't vote for pro abortin people. If they change their mind on it I can let it pass if I think there is a chance they are genuine.
#22. To: CZ82 (#21)
#23. To: A K A Stone (#20)
Also that alienates people on the right who are againat abortion.
#24. To: A K A Stone (#22)
I did vote for a Leftard once. In the primaries. Jerry Brown to try and stop Clinton in 92.
#25. To: A K A Stone (#20)
Also that alienates people on the right who are againat abortion. You aren't going to get the sicko vote anyway. So why try to pretend you are something other then you are? By "controlling the message". Don't get me wrong. I mostly like Neil and listen to him quite often. Nobody agrees with everyone all the time. So only I can be right all the time. ;)
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