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Title: What Version of the Christian Holy Bible Do You read?
Source:
LF
URL Source: http://hereandnow
Published: Feb 18, 2012
Author: buckeroo
Post Date: 2012-02-18 17:52:56 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 289720
Comments: 449
Assuming you have a Christian Holy Bible of one flavor or another, what version do you read? As several examples, here are several variations: the New King James Version, New Living Translation, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version and so forth. Post your comment on this thread.
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#65. To: GarySpFC (#63)
(Edited)
The American Orthodox Study Bible is based on NKJV. But the Bible used in Greek mass is the Patriarchal version on of 1906, written in Greek. That has now been translated into English for the first time.
Throughout history the Jews have been clueless. Ignore those retarded Messiah deniers.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
No. Prior to 396 AD (and for sometime after), many Bibles included the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, and many others books that were not included in the final New Testament. A lot of Christians revered these books. Many of the Bibles in circulation did NOT include Revelations and other disputed books. These are called FACTS, not American dispensationalist propaganda.
Hey buck- I have looked back here a few times, to see if you answered. Unless I missed it, you didn't answer. That's cool- BUT.. I really am going deep into prayer for the whole weekend now, and I am not getting back online here. What I want to leave you with is that I honestly believe that you are valuable enough to have an honest discussion with-and that the Lord loves you, whether you call yourself a deist or not. Salvation is something that is written about FOR you. You are JUST as entitled to salvation as I am ,and no matter what you have done or called yourself- you are savable and wanted, as am I. (that goes for anyone reading) Ok? So we are equal in the eyes of the Lord. I am not an authority to you. The Lord is the authority and then there is everyone else. I just have a fear of the Lord, and a love for Jesus that is YET untapped in you- or at least in your postings here. The Bible can either be a book of lies and distortions OR the most simplest thing written, in the history of the world- laying out peace and healing and an abudnant life. It all starts with what we are afraid of. I, personally, am deeply afraid of a life where Jesus rots in a tomb. I have made a choice that my perception of life will not be from the eyes of a human being- who is not possible of healing, love and peace. And since I chose that- my life is blessed, safe and peaceful. THOSE are the consequences of my choice. We all make choices and live and die with those choices. I am praying for you. I am seeking your understanding of those scriptures in a new way, so you can make informed choices. I want that peace for you, in your life. In fact, I pray that anyone reading this- will have the same peace I have. I have to jet, and go into a spiritual weekend. I will look back here sometime next week to see if you want to chat. Take care. Oh and here is a tune: www.youtube.com/watch? v=GCi8P7W_tAw
Show me, in the canons of the Holy Bible where there is a reference to a "trinity." Thank you.
You are correct, I didn't answer. You have confused me with that which is simple. If what you say is true, how do you read: Just asking, of course.
This is good news! How do you reconcile the apparent differences of text within the two versions that hondo68 posted in #1 of this thread? Don't the two versions read differently?
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ. Ask a Catholic. I don't beleive in most things Catholics believe in - you would have to ask a Catholic. The power of God is within us, when we accept the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the kingdom of Heaven (aka -Kingdom of God).. (again, see the theme from the other verses?) Jesus lives in the faithful, by the indwelling - Holy Spirit. Have a good weekend. God bless you, buck. Hope that is helpful.
This thread is not designed to dispel your personal beliefs or religion, you are free to be what-ever-you-want. Have you read Flavius Josephus?
A.) When were the individual documents written? B.) When were the individual documents selected for inclusion into the official Christian Bible (the New Testament)? The answer to B is 396 AD. Prior to 396 AD, there were a lot of very, very different collections of writings that circulated among Christian. The Four Gospels were universally accepted. Many of the other books, that I name above, were NOT. I am very aware of the differencee between when the NT books were completed and the canon. The books of the NT were all completed prior to 100 AD. Several of the early church fathers wrote what books were part of the NT long before 396 AD, and they didn't need a church council to tell them what was canon, and neither do I. If you feel differently that's your issue, not mine.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Church doctrine almost always is based on the Greek or Hebrew text, and seldom if ever translations.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I see. So how did Jerome translate the Greek and Coptic texts at the Library of Alexandria, Egypt for the Vulgate into Latin in circa ~379 CE?
“Governing authorities” (cf. also NRSV; NIV; NASB; NJB) translates a phrase that is central to the interpretation of the paragraph. Like our “authority,” exousia refers broadly in secular and biblical Greek to the possession and exercise of (usually legitimate) power. As an abstract noun, the word usually denotes the concept of authority. Jesus’ well-known words in Matt. 28:18 use the word in a typical way: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” But the word can also have a concrete application, in which case exousia denotes a sphere over which authority is exercised (e.g., a “dominion”; cf. Luke 23:7) or the being who exercises authority.18 The latter is clearly how the word is used in Rom. 13:1. The NT refers to two different kinds of “beings” who exercise authority: a person in government (a “ruler”)19 and spiritual “powers.”20 A few scholars have argued that Paul may be referreferring at least partially to spiritual beings in Rom. 13:1.21 But this is unlikely.22 As parallel terms in this context suggest (cf. “rulers” [archontes] in v. 3), the “authorities” occupy positions in secular government. Paul qualifies them as “governing” in order to indicate that they are in positions of superiority over the believers he is addressing.23 Paul calls on believers to “submit”24 to governing authorities rather than to “obey” them; and Paul’s choice of words may be important to our interpretation and application of Paul’s exhortation. To submit is to recognize one’s subordinate place in a hierarchy, to acknowledge as a general rule that certain people or institutions have “authority” over us. In addition to governing authorities (cf. also Tit. 3:1), Paul urges Christians to submit to their spiritual leaders (1 Cor. 16:16) and to “one another” (Eph. 5:21); and he calls on Christian slaves to submit to their masters (Tit. 2:9), Christian prophets to submit to other prophets (1 Cor. 14:32), and Christian wives to submit to their husbands (1 Cor. 14:34 [?]; Eph. 5:24; Col. 3:18; Tit. 2:5).25 It is this general posture toward government that Paul demands here of Christians. And such a posture will usually demand that we obey what the governing authorities tell us to do. But perhaps our submission to government is compatible with disobedience to government in certain exceptional circumstances. For heading the hierarchy of relations in which Christians find themselves is God; and all subordinate “submissions” must always be measured in relationship to our all-embracing submission to him.26 ESV|°Let every person be subject to the governing authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God °, and those that exist have been °instituted by God. °Therefore whoever resists the °authorities resists what God has °appointed , and those who °resist will °incur judgment °. For rulers °are not a terror °to good conduct , but °to bad . °Would you °have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is °good, and °you will °receive his approval, °for he is God’s servant °for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword °in vain . °For he is °the servant of God , an °avenger who carries out God’s wrath °on the wrongdoer. Therefore °one must be in subjection , not only °to avoid God’s wrath but also °for the sake of conscience. °For because of this you also °pay taxes, for the authorities are °ministers of God , °attending to °this very thing . °Pay to all what °is owed to them : °taxes to whom taxes are owed , °revenue to whom revenue is owed , °respect to whom respect is owed , °honor °to whom honor is owed . 49.7% difference AMP|°LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God °[by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist °do so by °God’s appointment . °Therefore he who °resists and sets himself up against the °authorities resists what God has °appointed and arranged [in divine order]. And those who °resist will bring down judgment °upon themselves °[receiving the penalty due them]. For °civil authorities are not a terror °to [people of] good conduct , but °to [ those °of] bad behavior . °Would you °have no dread of °him who is in authority? Then do what is right and °you will °receive his approval and commendation . For he is God’s servant °for your good. But if you do wrong, [you should dread him and] be afraid, for he does not bear and wear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant °to execute His wrath °( punishment , vengeance) on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject , °not only °to avoid God’s wrath and escape punishment , but also °as a matter of principle and for the sake of conscience. °For this same reason you pay taxes, for [ the civil authorities ] are °official servants under God , °devoting themselves to attending to °this very service . °Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due , °revenue to whom revenue is due , °respect to whom respect is due , °and honor °to whom honor is due . 55% difference NASB95|°Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God, and those which °exist °are established by God. °Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the °ordinance of God °; and °they who °have opposed will °receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers °are not a cause of fear for °good behavior , but for °evil . Do you want to °have no fear of °authority? °Do what is °good and °you will °have praise from the same; °for it is °a minister of God to °you for good. But if you do °what is evil , be afraid °; for °it does not bear the sword for nothing °; for it is °a minister of God , an °avenger who brings wrath °on the °one who practices evil . Therefore °it is necessary to °be in subjection , not only because of °wrath, but also °for conscience ’ sake . °For because of this you also °pay taxes, for °rulers are °servants of God , °devoting themselves to °this very thing . °Render to all what °is due them : °tax to whom tax is due ; °custom to whom custom ; °fear to whom fear ; °honor °to whom honor. 55% difference
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
In the West the church primarily used Latin after the end of the second century, and unofficial translations were made. In the fourth century Pope Damasus I invited Jerome to revise current Latin translations based on Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Jerome completed the new translation after 18 years of work at Bethlehem. Jerome’s translation came to be the accepted Bible, and by a.d. 1200 was called the Vulgate, the official version for the Roman Catholic Church.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Questions About The Bible The Bible has many faces. It can be studied as literature and explored as a set of stories and poetic expressions, or viewed as history which tells us of the beginnings and growth of God’s people. For some it is a guide to Archeology, pointing the way to buried civilizations. There is a place and a purpose for each of those aspects, but at the basis of all, the Bible is the Word of God. It is God’s message to a rebelling world of how it can return to Him. It is a love letter from God to us. But do we take this claim seriously? Or are we interested only in one aspect? How important is the Bible? The earlier chapters of this book have shown that we can know that God exists, what He is like, how He can overcome evil, that He can perform miracles, and that Jesus is God without ever referring to the Bible as a sacred book. However, it must be said that while these arguments don’t rely on the Bible, they are guided by it. They take the path of reason to reach these conclusions, but they are directed by the revelation. Without the Word of God, there is no guarantee that anyone would ever reach these conclusions. Even if they did, there might not be many who found them, and there is no telling how long it would take or how much error might be included along the way. Also, reason can take us only one step farther. That step leads us to the Scriptures as God’s Word. If we are to have any knowledge of God’s saving grace and love, then we must have the Word of God. The big question is, “Is the Bible really a revelation from God?” That is the question we will try to answer in this chapter. HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD? We know that the Bible came from God for one very simple reason: Jesus told us so. It is on His authority, as the God of the universe, that we are sure that the Bible is the Word of God. He confirmed the Old Testament’s authority in His teaching, and He promised an authoritative New Testament through His disciples. The Son of God Himself assures us that the Bible is the Word of God. JESUS CONFIRMED THE AUTHORITY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT Jesus spoke of the whole Old Testament (Matt. 22:29), its central divisions (Luke 16:16), its individual books (Matt. 22:43; 24:15), its events (19:4–5; Luke 17:27), and even its letters and parts of letters (Matt. 5:18) as having divine authority. He called the Scriptures the Word of God (John 10:35). He said that they had been written by men moved by the Spirit when He said, “David himself said in the Holy Spirit” (Mark 12:36) and refers to events “spoken of through Daniel the prophet” (Matt. 24:15). In such statements He confirms the authorship of the most often disputed books, like Moses’ writings (Mark 7–10), Isaiah (v. 6), Daniel, and the Psalms. He also refers to the very miracles which critics reject as historical events. He cites the Creation (Luke 11:51), Adam and Eve (Matt. 19:4–5), Noah and the Flood (24:37–39), Sodom and Gomorrah (Luke 10:12), and Jonah and the great fish (Matt. 12:39–41). He said, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of the letter of the Law to fail” (Luke 16:17). The fact that He considered the Scripture to be the final authority is seen clearly in His temptations, when He defends himself from Satan’s attacks three times with the phrase, “It is written” (Matt. 4:4ff). JESUS PROMISED THE NEW TESTAMENT Jesus told His disciples just before He left them, “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you” (John 14:25–26). Jesus added, “When He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come” (16:13). These statements promise that the teachings of Jesus will be remembered and understood, and that additional truths would be given to the apostles so that the church could be established. They set the stage for the apostolic era which began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1ff) and continued until the last of the apostles died (John, about a.d. 100). During this period, the apostles became the agents of the complete and final revelation of Jesus Christ and He continued “to do and teach” through them (Acts 1:1). They were given the “keys to the kingdom” (Matt. 16:19) and by their hands did believers receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14–15; 19:1–6). The early church built its doctrines and practices on “the foundation of the apostles” (Eph. 2:20). It followed the “apostles’ teaching” (Acts 2:42) and was bound by decisions of the apostolic council (Acts 15). Even though Paul had received his apostleship by a revelation from God, his credentials were confirmed by the apostles in Jerusalem. Some of the New Testament writers were not apostles, though. How can we explain their authority? They used the apostolic message which was “confirmed to us by those who heard” (Heb. 2:3). Mark worked closely with Peter (1 Peter 5:13); James and Jude were closely associated with the apostles in Jerusalem and were probably Jesus’ brothers; Luke was a companion of Paul (2 Tim. 4:11) who interviewed many eyewitnesses to produce his account (Luke 1:1–4). Paul’s writings are even equated with Scripture by Peter (2 Peter 3:15–16). In each case (with the exception of Hebrews; we don’t know for sure who wrote that book), there is a definite link between the writer and the apostles who gave them information (cf. 2:3). Now if Jesus, who was God in the flesh and always spoke the truth, said that the Old Testament was the Word of God and that the New Testament would be written by His apostles and prophets as the sole authorized agents for His message, then our entire Bible is proven to be from God. We have it on the best of authority—Jesus Christ Himself.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Nice definitive explanation. How come it does not take into account the issues that Paul was confronting with Rome from on a historical basis in order to arrive at the explanation? I have been reading "Romans: A Shorter Commentary" by C. E. B Cranfield and 13:1-7 are not what you think from a general or broadview position. In fact, I find your discussion further PROOF of the dolts that read and interpret the scriptures as reason NOT to read their ideas other than in a mocking sort of way. I think the entire Bible MUST be taken from a historical context, too.
You are ignorant of history, like most American dispensationalists. There is no point in having a conversation with someone who is too stubborn to learn.
We know that the Bible came from God for one very simple reason: Jesus told us so. How is that possible? First, the NT wasn't written in a collective manner with some texts integrated into the canon and others not before Jesus' crucifixion; that even was some 300+ years later. But, just preceding the time of Jerome's synthesis and reproduction of the NT, here comes the Talmud! (circa ~200 CE): There was no Bible, as a complete Jewish history (OT) was always oral not written and to this very day many Jews reject the Talmud altogether as is pointed out in the video.
Buck- what annoys me about you, the very most is that you ask personal questions and then you rebuke the answer. It totally annoys me. It is so rude. THAT is why humans need a savior, to learn to be kind to one another. Anyway- yes I have read. I tell you my personal faith, because you seem to be ignorant to the fact that not everyone reads the cannon, which is what YOU asked about. People who call themselves Christians do not all have faith in the same things. THAT fact speaks directly to the reason there are different translations and interpretations. Jesus warned us about men and power trips and their religion. He told us to rebel against religion. You talk about a rebel.. he was a rebel against religion. Read the Bible. I am telling you who I am, so you can start to understand the foundation of what I am sharing with you. For example, gary and I do not have faith in the same things at all. His brand of christian and mine are not the same. I look at gary's behavior and I do not see Jesus. THAT is all I need to know. I don't think the source of his religion and my faith is the same, as a matter of fact. He and I do not operate the same, read the same things in the Scriptural- or have the same understanding of God. SO- you are going to get two very different explanations of Scripture from the two of us. You should understand that every person who you seek answers from is going to put our experiences into our understanding. My experiences with Jesus are personal- profound, radical, healing and audacious. I had a radical transformation and walk in great blessings and good health. That is what I bring to the table. Don't want to know about that? Then stop asking me. And yes, history is very important and sound theology is very , very important- but the Bible says that all understanding starts with the fear of the lord- and is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Gary has neither. Gary is all about religion- nothing spiritual or supernatural. There are people, such as myself, who believe God is spirit and supernatural. KNOW the difference and you will gain understanding of why there are so many interpretations. Want to know WHO is the closest to Holy and accurate- then look at the person's life and the blessings - peace and good health of the person. THAT is called the fruit. Matt 7:16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Like there is proof in the pudding.... well, there is proof in the fruit. So- know WHO you are talking to, and what they believe- while you seek. In fact, want to get directly to the heart of WHO is God, and what are HIS ways? Stop reading everyone's opinions and get on your knees and pray. You have a brain and a heart. Open them to God, and He will answer you. God bless you buck. This is a great season to be seeking. I pray you find all your answers. :) Blessed be the name of the Lord, Jesus.
There are also huge differences between the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox versions of the Old Testament.
I am not interested in your personal faith. If you are annoyed, it is because of THAT fact. I am interested in WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE YOU READ. You don't seem to have a handy Bible available. Why?
JW - You are on "TOP" of this thread. You seem to understand that the documentation that we have at our disposal is diverse. This is why there are so many variations in Jewish faith (tons of variations, BTW) as well as variations in the Christian faith (many more tons, BTW). I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion. Weird, isn't it?
No it's not weird it's typical, and just another example of that 'rugged individualism' we love to brag about. How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
The story of the ancient world is recorded by several historians of old, such as Homer, Josephus, Tacitus, Xenophon, Herodotus—called “the father of history,” and Thucydides, who is credited as being one of the most trustworthy of ancient sources. All of them suffer in comparison to the historical pinpoint accuracy of Luke. Luke was undeniably brilliant, possessing remarkable literary abilities and a deep knowledge of the Greek language. He was the only non-Jewish author of the Bible. Yet he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else—28 percent. He was a physician and a scientist. He was a writer and a medical missionary. He has proved himself a historian of first rank. Here he tells us that before writing his Gospel, he did the work of an investigative journalist, recording his findings in an orderly manner based on careful investigation: “It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” ( With that in mind, remember that Luke painstakingly and confidently described the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in his Gospel, chapters 23 and 24; and he repeatedly made reference to the Resurrection in the book of Acts. The brilliant Wilbur Smith said: "Of all the writers in the New Testament, Luke was the one who knew better than any of them, from his own medical experience, that it was utterly impossible for a dead body to come to life again by its own power. He was also a man who would have no faith in such a great doctrine as the resurrection of Christ, were it based upon a vision, a hallucination, mental excitement, or the blowing of the wind, or the rattling of a window. It was the conviction of this scientist and scholar, true Grecian and true Christian, that the Lord manifested himself to his disciples in many proofs." To reject the Resurrection, you have to disregard the demonstrated reliability of one of the foremost historians of the first century, a man who has been proven accurate even in the minutia of his narrative. How accurate was Luke's historical record? He tied everything into history and gave us historical anchors all along the way, both in his Gospel and Acts. His historical pegs have proven accurate even in minute points. For example, notice the way he began chapter 2: those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to his own town to register” (Luke 2:1–3). Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria. A hundred years ago, critics had a field day with that statement, finding no evidence in history to suggest that Caesar ever issued such a decree. Furthermore (critics charged) there was nothing to suggest that Quirinius was ever governor of Syria at the time prescribed by Luke. Then a series of discoveries were made. Sir William Ramsay, the Scottish archaeologist, dug up first-century documents showing that the Roman Empire conducted a regular taxpaying census every fourteen years and that this system originated in the days of Caesar Augustus. Another document was found in Egypt, an edict of G. Vibius Maximus written on papyrus, describing the procedure used in such a census, directing taxpayers to return to their ancestral towns to register. Another inscription discovered by Ramsay in Antioch showed that with brief interruptions, a man named Quirinius functioned as military governor in Syria from 12 b.c. to a.d. 16. Notice in the next chapter, Luke 3, how meticulously Luke nails down his historical references: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene—during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert” (Luke 3:1–2) Sound like misty legend and fabricated fable? Anything but! Luke tacks John’s ministry to the wall of history using six different pins. John the Baptist appeared when (1) Tiberius Caesar was in his fifteenth year of rule; (2) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; (3) Herod was tetrarch of Galilee; (4) Herod’s brother Philip was tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis; (5) Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene; and (6) Annas and Caiaphas were sharing the office of high priest. Most of these facts are easy to verify, but a couple of them caused problems. A hundred years ago, critics were attacking Luke’s reference to Lysanias, saying, “The only Lysanias mentioned in history was killed in 36 b.c., sixty years before John the Baptist.” But the critics were stilled when archaeologists excavated an inscription near Damascus, stating that a man named Lysanias was indeed tetrarch of Abilene at the time mentioned by Luke. The skeptics also made hay with Pontius Pilate. For most of modern history his name has been absent on every historical document we have from the ancient world. Critics charged that Pilate was a fabrication. But a stone I have personally seen and took a picture of was excavated in Caesarea. It has the name Pontius Pilate plainly engraved for all the world to see. He was governor of Judea during the very time given by Luke, and he was headquartered at Caesarea. I mentioned earlier how William Ramsay traveled to the Middle East to disprove Luke’s historical references and how, to his great surprise, he found the writings of Luke accurate in their tiniest details. This is even more remarkable when we consider that every other historian in the ancient world—men like Polybius, Quintilian, Xenophon, Josephus, and even Thucydides—did not hesitate to misrecord the facts to suit their own purposes.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists. So, their individual faith was not an important issue.
Yep.... a certain amount of group think was insured, and by force if need be. Isn't that what the current type of conservatives love to bitch about?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Ok- so you are just playing games. I told you- I read any of them I want to read. I answered that question - you asked more. I answered- you spit. I wanted to be open and honest- you bark. Typical buck. There is no transformation here. I thought so, but I wanted to experiment with what would happen if turned around and authentically answered your questions from a human place. So I did that ,and you play games. For anyone reading that is why we need to ask God to transform us into the beings He would like us to be. The world is full of ego driven- selfish people, who are very abusive to our spirits. Someone has to pay for that sin. Someone always does- your lover, wife, children, friends, co-workers... anyone who is around you, buck- pays for your ego. If you are smart- you seek Jesus and accept His gift of debt free peace. OR- you can play games with theologians, who have no fruit in their lives- and pretend along with them that you are trying to understand. OR you are looking for comfort in someone's words that you don't need God- because their ideas are nuts. God isn't fooled. Play your games. Pay the consequences. I am so thankful for an awesome God who blesses me, and gives me all understanding. Anyone else reading- this is for you- not buck-if you want the answers and blessings, they are for YOU too. Get into any Bible, and when you have a question, seek God- by praying - and asking for understanding. God will show up. The love, joy,peace, good fortune, good health, relationships, adventure and daily blessings are for anyone. THAT is the gospel. You do have to give up sin- and ego, and chaos and illness - however. The only thing I have that is different from those who attack me- is that I have a fear of Lord, I love Jesus will all my heart-mind and soul and I have surrendered a broken life of pain and abuse. I get attacked by people who are addicted to their illness and sin. Don't let anyone tell you that THIS peaceful life isn't for you- or you have to have some lofty knowledge of history.. or you have to recite some list of prayers in a perfect way. Those are lies. The Lord transformed my life- and restored my joy, and made every single ache and pain of life - so beautiful. Whoever you are who is following along- It is for you as well. Start in the gospel of John and keep reading. Or start anywhere. If you want a transformation in your life- you have to change the way you think. God bless you all. Peace.
Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? At any rate, you wrote: Now, we are getting somewhere! The history of the Jews/Rome (circa ~67 BCE) is the crux of the New Testament. Prior to 67BCE, there were Essenes, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. After Pompeii's conquest of Syria/Judea/Israel something amazing happened: a new Jewish sect rose up against the Pharisees and the Romans. That was the fourth group: the Zealots. When the Zealots rose up and attacked the Romans because of TAXATION, the Zealots lost time and again (circa ~4 CE) but this continual conflict created a blood lust against the Jews. Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective.
No you didn't. You said, "read ALL of them." That infers you have some 100+ Bibles in front of you at all times which is absurd.
The Mishnah is not part of the Bible, but a record of Jewish oral tradition. The O.T. Canon was closed prior to the writing of the Mishnah. MISHNA [MISH nah] (repetition) — the first, and basic, part of the Talmud and the written basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism. The Mishna contains a written collection of traditional laws (halakoth) handed down orally from teacher to student. It was compiled across a period of about 335 years, from 200 b.c. to a.d. 135. The Mishna is grouped into 63 treaties, or tractates, that deal with all areas of Jewish life—legal, theological, social, and religious—as taught in the schools of Palestine. Soon after the Mishna was compiled, it became known as the “iron pillar of the Torah,” since it preserves the way a Jew can follow the Torah. For many Jews, the Mishna ranks second only to the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, many Jews consider it part of the Torah. Because it is the core for both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, the Mishna serves as a link between Jews in the land of Israel and Jews scattered around the world.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? I have a large Logos Bible Software collection, and Ramsey's 7 volume works are included.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Yes, I am aware of theses groups. That said, there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Lets break this down a bit (I am not arguing, I am trying to learn this stuff) ... The Torah = first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures that is the oral Torah The Tanakh = the entire kit set of oral and written documents finally completed in ~600 CE) Fix the above stuff before we can go on. Because THE REALLY BIG STUFF IS history of the Zealots, IMO.
They were Jews, correct? Just so you know, the Zealots were centralized in Galilee ... guilt by association with Jesus and associates? Hmmmm.
Oh God bless you buck. You are stuck. You are in a box. You only understand what the eyes of your flesh tell you is true. You only have faith in humans. If I have an internet connection I have access to every bible and all the gospels and every way of thinking- at my fingertips. So it is more ridiculousness that you are chatting with me online- and do not make the connection that I can look up anything I want to look up- in .2 seconds. I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions. Pay attention, or the world is going to pass you by- and you will never understand anything. You are lead by people who tell you what you want to hear, because it soothes your ego. Jesus was a rebel because He is telling you not to be held in bondage to other people's ideas. You gotta get out of your ego- and open your heart and your mind- and be transformed by the renewal of your mind. :) Romans 12:2 Here is a whole bunch of translations- read them all- google more if you want. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A2&version=NIV You do not need anyone else, other than God, to tell you which one of these is the right one. That is true for anyone. :) Best wishes- I am going to back to observing a peaceful Lent, learning the ways of my Lord. I pray you are blessed with understanding and joy in the Lord, today. I thank you for this time, because it is actually valuable to me, in understanding human nature. So, while it is right in line with my Lent observation- I am not going to get back here for awhile again.
So, their individual faith was not an important issue. I am going to emphatically disagree. Only two, Jefferson and Franklin, we're Deists, and their form of Deism was not at all like today's Deism or atheism. See for yourself. What did our Founding Fathers have to say? Was America founded by Christians? Was it founded to be a Christian nation? "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.","Give me liberty or give me death. "Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention. http://www.errantskeptics.org/ChristianNation.htm Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Part of our commitment should be to raise Old Glory across the nation's flagpoles and http://www.errantskeptics.org/Quotes_Founding- Fathers.htmbe grateful we live in a nation committed to these ideals.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Have you read and understood the thread banner? It poses a simple question. Take a peek at it before posting again on this thread. If you don't want to answer the simple question posted at the top of the thread, just say so and move on or don't post at all. If you do want to answer the question, please be factual instead of elusive to the question. You do not read 100+ Bibles at any one time despite that which you claim.
I dispute what you are suggesting for several reasons. First, there is a known association of the "closeness" of the local church with community activities in very early colonial America by local leaders and of course they went to a Christian church and were active within local community efforts. To be otherwise, could ensure being ostracized from their relative positions. But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain. In fact, within the Declaration of Independence (written by TJ) Jefferson's inclusion of the slavery issue was completely removed by the Continental Congress. There was no consensus of or about a Christian concept in that exclusion in the concept of slavery. Jefferson threw EVERYTHING at King George ... yet the adoption of the DoI doesn't indicate one iota of "faith" or a "religion" certainly not from a Christian perspective.
The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Very true. Just look at the "10 Commandments". The "10 Commandments" appears twice in the Bible -- in Exodus and Deuteronomy. They are not identical. There were three attempts to organize these rules into 10 commandments: 1.) The Philonic division. Eastern Orthodox and most Protestants use this version. 2.) The Talmudic version. 3.) The Augustinian version. Catholics and Lutherans use this version. What do America dispensationalists say about this? The Catholics "changed" the 10 commandments, so it must be the work of Satan. What a hoot.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThe OC used the NKJV for their NT.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#66. To: GarySpFC (#62)
Judaism, which produced these books, has never accepted them into its Bible (the Hebrew Scriptures, corresponding to our OT).
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#67. To: GarySpFC (#60)
(Edited)
“You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thas miomxed in with a lot of other things. “When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined."
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#68. To: buckeroo (#58)
(Edited)
Prov 1:28-33 (NIV) "They will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me. Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat of the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them; but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm."
#69. To: diva betsy ross (#59)
Just like there is the Trinity.
#70. To: diva betsy ross (#68)
Unless I missed it, you didn't answer.
I have made a choice that my perception of life will not be from the eyes of a human being- who is not possible of healing, love and peace. And since I chose that- my life is blessed, safe and peaceful. THOSE are the consequences of my choice.
(KJV) Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
#71. To: GarySpFC, diva betsy ross, hondo68 (#61)
I generally read the ESV, NIV, NLT, NASB1995, and the KJV for English translations
#72. To: buckeroo (#69)
(Edited)
Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16
#73. To: diva betsy ross (#72)
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ.
#74. To: jwpegler (#64)
You are confusing 2 completely separate things:
#75. To: buckeroo (#44)
Strange as it may seem, the many variations we find with the Christian Holy Bible *IS* the very reason for the many variations of churches and interpretations of Jesus of Nazareth own words.
#76. To: GarySpFC (#75)
Church doctrine almost always is based on the Greek or Hebrew text, and seldom if ever translations.
#77. To: buckeroo (#56)
#78. To: buckeroo (#76)
#79. To: buckeroo (#76)
#80. To: GarySpFC, hondo68 (#77)
3-4. For those engaged in government are not a cause for fear to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish not to fear the authority? Do what is good, and thou shalt receive praise from it; for it is God's minister to thee for good. But, if thou doest evil, fear; for it is not to no purpose that it is armed with the sword; for it is God's minister, an agent of punishment for wrath to him who does evil.
These two verses are puzzling. The difficulty is that Paul seems to take no account of the possibility of the government's being unjust and punishing the good work and praising the evil. There seem to be three possible explanations: (i) Paul is so taken up with his own good experiences of the Roman authority that he is oblivious of the possibility that it might do what is unjust. But Paul himself had had other experiences (see Acts 16.22f, 37; 2 Cor 11.25ff). And could he ever forget that it was this same authority which had condemned and executed his Lord? (ii) Paul, though fully aware of this possibility, is here, as Calvin suggests, speaking only `of the true and natural duty of the magistrate', from which however `those who hold power often depart'. But it is hard to see how the giving of such a one-sided picture could be compatible with a serious pastoral purpose. Moreover, it would be in striking contrast to the realism of 8.35-39. (iii) Paul means that consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, in one way or another, the power will praise the good work and punish the evil. The promise of v.3 is absolute: the Christian, in so far as he is obeying the gospel, may be sure that the power will honour him. It may indeed intend to punish him, but its intended punishment will then turn out to be praise. It may take his life, but in so doing it will but confer a crown of glory. On the other hand, if he does evil, it must needs punish him - though it may be by shameful honours or a false security. This third explanation, though admittedly difficult, seems preferable to the other two.
C. E. B. Cranfield. Romans: A Shorter Commentary (Kindle Locations 4650-4655). Kindle Edition.
#81. To: GarySpFC (#74)
(Edited)
they didn't need a church council to tell them what was canon, and neither do I.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#82. To: GarySpFC (#79)
HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD?
#83. To: buckeroo (#73)
(Edited)
#84. To: buckeroo (#82)
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#85. To: diva betsy ross (#83)
#86. To: jwpegler (#84)
There are also huge differences between the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox versions of the Old Testament.
#87. To: buckeroo (#86)
Weird, isn't it?
#88. To: buckeroo (#80)
I think the entire Bible MUST be taken from a historical context, too
#89. To: mininggold (#87)
How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me.
#90. To: buckeroo (#89)
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists.
#91. To: buckeroo (#85)
#92. To: GarySpFC (#88)
Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria.
#93. To: diva betsy ross (#91)
I answered that question
#94. To: buckeroo (#82)
#95. To: buckeroo (#92)
#96. To: buckeroo (#92)
Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective.
#97. To: GarySpFC (#94)
The Talmud = Jewish oral Torah comprised of the Mishnah and the Gemana (Palestinian and Babylonian versions).
#98. To: GarySpFC (#96)
there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group.
#99. To: buckeroo (#93)
(Edited)
#100. To: buckeroo (#89)
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists.
#101. To: diva betsy ross (#99)
I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions.
#102. To: GarySpFC (#100)
#103. To: buckeroo (#102)
But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain.
#104. To: buckeroo (#86)
(Edited)
I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion.
Philonic Talmudic Augustinian Exodus 20:1- 17 Deuteronomy 5:4- 21 — 1 — 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 4–5 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire ... saying, Pre 1 — 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 1 2 1 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 2 2 1 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 2 2 1 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 2 2 1 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 3 3 2 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 4 4 3 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 4 4 3 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 4 4 3 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 4 4 3 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. 5 5 4 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 6 6 5 13 Thou shalt not kill. 17 Thou shalt not kill. 7 7 6 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 8 8 7 15 Thou shalt not steal. 19 Neither shalt thou steal. 9 9 8 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10 10 9 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, 21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, 10 10 10 thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
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