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Title: What Version of the Christian Holy Bible Do You read?
Source:
LF
URL Source: http://hereandnow
Published: Feb 18, 2012
Author: buckeroo
Post Date: 2012-02-18 17:52:56 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 289469
Comments: 449
Assuming you have a Christian Holy Bible of one flavor or another, what version do you read? As several examples, here are several variations: the New King James Version, New Living Translation, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version and so forth. Post your comment on this thread.
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#1. To: buckeroo, *Jack-Booted Thugs* (#0)
(Edited)
Romans 13 is probably the most devastating thing to a Christian in the hands of the ungodly. It sounds so convincing to obey those who appear to be in power. For too long, secular governments have used Romans 13 as a club to beat Christians into obedience to them. Just because a group maintains power through their guns and jails, does not mean God put them there. God said there are powers not ordained by Him at Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not." God didn't put them in power over the righteous. That's Satan's idea. The righteous don't need worldly, filthy authorities, which are no authorities at all. Do you think that they can instruct the righteous? They themselves steal. They themselves are perverts. And they presume to instruct the righteous? I don't think so. The NIV is revisionist history at it's worst, written by satist NWO neocon libtards. The following chart demonstrates just how far they strayed... Warning: Beware of the Living Bible and the Good News Bible. They are merely Bible paraphrases, not translations. The wording is not true to the original Hebrew and Greek. The scriptures are perverted to support secular Christianity. Romans 13:1-7 King James Bible Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Living Bible Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. 4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose. 6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you. 7 Pay everyone whatever he ought to have: pay your taxes and import duties gladly, obey those over you, and give honor and respect to all those to whom it is due. Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Good grief...I use the Geneva bible, often called the pilgrims bible because it's the bible brought over on the Mayflower, and pre-dates the King James bible by 51 years...This whole Romans 13 nonsense is a tyrants dream...the "rulers" we are supposed to follow are a terror to evil and uphold the good...not reversed. Are we to obey liars, thieves, war mongers, murders, lovers of power and position, leaders that teach perversion, decadence and hate of all things GOD calls good...I don't think so. If this were so, we as Christians, should obey corrupt leaders like Caligula, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot or any other ruthless tyrant that comes along...that's ridiculous. Based on this rendering, we would still be subjects of the British crown, because revolt would have been unChristian....Oh, and we should never have gone to war with Germany because GOD put Hitler in his position of power.
God gave the government certain responsibilities. Such as punishing murderers and thieves. Maybe a lot of other stuff that governments do that aren't sanctioned in the Bible are not legitimate.
no doubt Stone...my only comment was the ridiculousness of GOD wanting us to follow/obey evil and corrupt government.
I was just throwing it out there.
...you're a good man...throw away!
Does the chart that you posted include the version you read? That is to ask: Do you read the King James Version? Why don't you read the New King James Version? **** good comparison BTW.... still, what do you use by your bed stand? Why not the Gideon's Bible?
I am attempting to understand the version you use as opposed to the reasons for the version. And thank you for providing a straight answer. You indicate an interesting point in historical fact, however. Still, predating the Geneva Bible is the Great Bible or even the Tyndale Bible. Have you tried those two versions? Why do you say that Romans 13 is a tyrant's dream? I would like to know more about your interpretation and why you think the Geneva Bible is immune to such interpretation. Thank you in advance.
What version or variation of the Christian Bible do you most often refer to, Stone? You say you are a devout Christian from time to time. Does your quote (above) have any impact regarding the behaviour of those in the United States Government? I only ask because you brought it up.
I use the King James Bible. You know that.
I think many of the things the government should be done by individuals instead, or not done at all.
Why don't you use the New King James Version?
You made the above point, which seems "innocent." But what happens when the very people whom comprise a government become the same as what you suggest? Are they going to punish themselves?
Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians use the Apocrypha, and it is part of the Bible for them. Many independent churches and low-church denominations think it is a Catholic addition when it is really a printer’s subtraction. In other words, printers removed the Apocrypha from the Bible, not any church. KJV (Gideon), and Douay-Rheims Version. Gideon is just a KJV, AFIK.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Using your own methods similar to the chart in post #1, please provide a reference of and about the King James Version (KJV) that reflects the passages of Romans 13 with respect to the Gideon Bible. You need not get fancy in HTML ... just the text ... nothing but the text. I would enjoy seeing how those versions of the Christian Bible are similar. Your help is important and I thank you in advance.
Should be the same as KJV. If you can find something different, post it.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Why don't you use the New King James Version? Because there are changes from what I understand. Things are watered down.
Nope. I just scanned: Gideon's Readings for August 14th - Evening study ... and compared it to your table in post#1. You are correct, Gideons Bible seems to be a direct copy of the KJV at least for Romans 13. How did you know that? Why is that other version you offered so different? How did you know that, too?
Like what? If I wanted to invest in a Holy Bible with a few bucks why should I choose a KJV or a Gideon version or a Geneva version? Why not use Jerome's Vulgate? Convince me that you are reading the authoritative word of God.
Actually I have "the living bible -paraphrased" which I found discarded by the wayside. "The Living Bible is a compilation of Scripture paraphrases previously published by Tynsdale House Publishers under the following titles: Living Letters, 1962; Living Prophecies, 1965; Living Gospels, 1966; Living Psalms and Proverbs, 1967; Living Lessons of Life and Love, 1968; Living Books of Moses, 1969; Living History of Israel, 1970." I keep it in the bathroom in case I run out of toilet paper, after the economy finishes collapsing and California formally becomes Aztlan.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Sounds like a great piece of work to wipe my ass with, too. Have you seen the following? Here: 1 2 3 Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 6 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Why would I pay any money to buy mere shit paper? HELL, I'm IN! Tomorrow, I'm mailing my 2011 IRS statement in... I'm doing the work of GOD, now.
Using your comparison chart in your first post between the King James Version (KJV) and the Living Bible (LB), I want you to know that the New King James Version (NKJV) (note: NOT the KJV as in your chart) has the same meaning as the Living Bible (LB). Also, this same idea contained in your chart between Living Bible (LB) King James (KJV) version seems perpetuated all over the many variations that exist. I do not believe for a moment that the Bible instructs us, "So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow" (LB) or "The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose." (LB) This is total poppycock for the lame brain creating, dull mass lunatics (whom can't think for themselves) submitting to a fuckin' dictator. I checked the Coptic Church, too. They are the oldest group of "Christians" around even foreshadowing the Catholic Church by several hundreds of years and they use the English translation of the NKJV! Even the Arabic translation (SJV) converts to "submission unto the the Sultans." I don't believe many people understand the intent of Jesus Christ at all. He was a REBEL in his day, that is the reason for his crucifixion.
submission unto the the Sultans. Like the gov the Coptics try their best to rip you off. The ones running the liquor store are known far and wide for trying to short change their customers. Maybe they give the money to Sultan Oilbombers reelection campaign?
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
The Coptics are pretty much centralized in Egypt and have been as much or more victimized through time as any of the Jews. Their first original writings came from Mark (one of the apostles of Christ) in Alexandria. Still, they use the NKJV, as well which is curious to me.
The ones I mentioned (two brothers) are immigrants from Iran.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
I was sure there was some subtle humour intended but I am studying the many variations of the Christian Bible right now. I am exceptionally curious about how the passage of Romans 13 has been interpreted in all these variations of English translation. Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL not some cheap submissive, humble servant of the government that is represented in all these English Bible translations.
Kings and even religious leaders try to spin to bible and tell us they we have to kiss their asses. Revolutionary preachers taught that "resistance to tyranny is obedience to God". They considered King George to be a false god (idol). I'm taking a wild ass guess that Oilbomber and Big Sis are false gods too! No wonder I got banned twice from that statist NWO bushbot site.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Your original link, The American Revolution - How Preachers Incited Revolution by Harry S. Stout is another resource for my repertoire of understanding how and why anyone would BELIEVE some of these English translations of the Christian Holy Bible as taught these days in the churches across the USA. And we wonder HOW America failed? The entire American nation has been blinded into becoming a herd of sheep caged by ravenous wolves ready to strike at any moment. And, at the top of the list are the fucking ministers, pastors, priests and other BS artists that practice their Sunday SATANIC message of BS.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek. The Greek Orthodox Church has recently release a new English translation of the New Testament called the Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible.
Excellent ... what English translation do they use?
It's a new English language translation based on the Greek language Constantinople Patriarchate edition of 1904.
I read their website. They claim either the KJV or RSV version. Here is what they say: Here is the REVISED STANDARD VERSION: [2] Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3] For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4] for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer. [5] Therefore one must be subject, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6] For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7] Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due. I don't believe any of this crap.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/understanding Try to keep the commandments of Jesus, and then you will get the understanding that you will never find, otherwise. Faith comes before knowledge. Job 28:28 And he said to man,’Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to turn away from evil is understanding.’” That is awesome if you want to know Jesus. Turn from all evil, invite Him into your life-open your heart for the revolution of love that he will show you- and pray to God for forgiveness of past sin. THEN you will know which Bible is right. Until you do those things, you will be chasing your tail, and nothing will make sense. Jesus was NOT a rebel against the government. He was a rebel against darkness, illness and hatred. And God bless you and make His light to shine on your life.
I found an official resource of an online version of from the Geneva Bible. Here is the copy: 01Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers: for there is no power but of God: and the powers that be, are ordained of God. 02Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist, shall receive to themselves condemnation. 03For Magistrates are not to be feared for good works, but for evil. Wilt thou then be without fear of the power? do well: so shalt thou have praise of the same. 04For he is the minister of God for thy wealth: but if thou do evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword for nought: for he is the minister of God to take vengeance on him that doeth evil. 05Wherefore ye must be subject, not because of wrath only, but also for conscience sake. 06For, for this cause ye pay also tribute: for they are God`s ministers, applying themselves for the same thing. 07Give to all men therefore their duty: tribute, to whom ye owe tribute: custom, to whom custom: fear, to whom fear: honor, to whom ye owe honor. It is not much different than the KJV. Thanks for sharing.
Really? But before going too far... stick with hondo's post#1 Romans 13 1-7 post. USE POST #1 FOR THE REST OF YOUR DISCUSSION. Also, show how some of these interpretations of Romans 13 provide that GOVERNMENT is TO BE OBEYED as some squirming maggot to be squished by some black booted thug.
buck- if you sincerely and honestly want to understand Jesus, then I pray blessings all over you and want to encourage you. There is no greater pursuit or use of your time. Something you really need to get your head around is the character of Jesus, so you can understand the Scriptures. When you understand the character of Jesus, you will be able to pick up any Bible, and understand the Word of God. Until you surrender to God, and ask for Jesus- and seek salvation, the Bible is not going to make any sense to you. You have no foundation, without your cornerstone. Jesus saves those who seek Him. Jesus, himself said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Jesus himself said, render to Caesar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's. Jesus himself told us to follow laws and commandments. Jesus himself paid the temple tax that was required. Jesus told his followers to observe the laws. Jesus was a revolutionary- because He was talking about love and salvation and repentance from sin. No one else was talking about that stuff. He was not talking about revolution over the government. There is a very good reason for that and it is much deeper than you understanding of one simple translation of Romans 13. You have to go so much deeper. Pray for salvation first- before going any further, if your are serious. And of course, God bless your period of seeking. If you are playing games, turn back now- because you would be mocking God, and that is so unwise.
DBR - Let me caution you about something ... this is NOT a thread about your personal salvation and all that muck to get all emotional for my soul because some snake-handler told you to "walk on the waters and spread the word" as Jesus did. I am a deist. I am so convinced that the world is full of shit because people like you believe in some STUPID TRINITY and all that cockamamie, I don't want to hear about it. Well, unless YOU CAN PROVE YOUR BELIEF. I am interested in what version of the BIBLE you read, that is ALL, hence the title of this thread. If you provide convincing arguments about the reasons for your choice, fine; I shall research that, too. One person already did so and it was the Geneva Bible which is similar to the KJV. So, what version of the Bible do you read?
pft! Your research on the Bible? lol.... Yeah- that is something smart for people to consider.. ok buck. Follow your free will. Whatever.
Hondo - I just researched a wee bit about your excellent resource, Harry Stout. I'm buying his book: The New England Soul: Preaching and Religious Culture in Colonial New England. As a synopsis of the book:
I guess YOU do. Still what version of the Christian Bible so you read?
The Septuagint refers to the Old Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek. The version that the Orthodox Church uses has now been translated to English.
Where can I find an on-line copy of Romans 13. Thank you.
Definitely a step up from reading the satanic rantings of an Obama worshiper like diva.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
DBR seems to think diametrically opposed to my antithetical opinion ... Strange as it may seem, the many variations we find with the Christian Holy Bible *IS* the very reason for the many variations of churches and interpretations of Jesus of Nazareth own words. Jesus was a REBEL! I can PROVE it, too, DBR.
Biblegateway
Very true. I am always dismayed when I talk to American fundamentalists, who have no idea where the New Testament came from. Here's the short story: In the 300 hundred years after Christ was crucified, a lot of Christian groups sprung up in the Middle East, with widely different views of Christ's deity and humanity. There wasn't any New Testament. Some groups used word of mouth. Others collected various combinations of writings by the Apostles and others. In the early 4th century, leaders of the Western Church (Rome) and Eastern Church (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) decided Christianity needed an official version and a set of writings that would support it. It took them almost 100 years to put the New Testament together. During the 100 year process, there were many disagreements on what should be included. The four Gospels were universally accepted. Other books were hotly contested. The disputed books included Hebrews, James, 2nd and 3rd John, 2d Peter, Jude, Revelations, the Shepard of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, and the Epistle of Clement. Finally in 396 AD, the new Testament was declared finalized. However there were still bibles produced in the east that contained Barnabas, but not Revelations for sometime after the decree. The decisions made about what to include in the New Testament are documented in the writings of the first seven Ecumenical Councils. Catholics and Orthodox look to those writings in addition to the New Testament because they tell why these particular books were chosen to be in the New Testament. Fundamentalist Protestants just don't have a clue about any of this. A few years ago I sat on a plane next to a fundamentalist preacher, who had his own unaffiliated church. He said flat out that what is wrong with American Protestantism is that they don't have any ties to history. Their congregations don't have any knowledge about the rich history of Christianity and how our current broad Christian views actually came into being. That's very sad.
I don't know that there is download since the version is brand new. Here is a write up on what the Orthodox Church believes about Romans 13. The salient point: Paul is being crystal clear here: we should consult our "conscience," i.e. our Christian conscience, according to the true Word of God, in order to judge the deeds of those rulers and whether they are set "for good" or for evil among us. If they are "for good," then tribute is indeed due. If they are for evil, then "fear" is due. Now, hand on heart, are your rulers true followers of God? Who is our ultimate ruler? Who should our earthly ministers follow and obey? Jesus Christ said it clearly: "I am the Alpha and the Omega." Christ is the beginning and the end. Only He rules. His ministers are but those following His Way and functioning by His example. To them, our tribute is due. Don’t deal with the rest.
Excellent point. I want to suggest that the Catholic Saint Jerome whom studied in Alexandria, Egypt under the auspices of the Egyptian Christian Copts, performed that deed with the direction of Pope Damasus I; Jerome's translation of Greek into Latin became the official Christian Holy Bible (Vulgate, circa ~400) for over a thousand years or into the early Renaissance Era of Europe (circa ~1400).
I want thank you again, hondo. I am reading Stout's book, "The New England Soul: Preaching and Religious Culture in Colonial New England." as a quick overview, it is interesting to note that ALMOST ALL the documented sermons that Stout offers has little or nothing to say concerning the Apostle Paul. BTW, Stout's research in this published work only discusses a timeline upto 1776. HAHAHAHAHA .. I wonder why? Anyone got a clue?
Not really sure, but around that time Tories became very unpopular and many left riding a rail after being tarred and feathered, and ended up in Canada or elsewhere. Wouldn't be surprised if some religious types were among them. Eventually they seemed to end up on FR and LP, claiming that they wuz hacked.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Thanks for the commentary and critique and although I linked it into my database I want to find Romans 13 in a similar way that hondo showed in his post#1. Do I have to buy: hardcopy for fifty bucks to learn about their official translation? If it is a recent work, why is it NOT online to buy at a fraction of the price?
I read them all. Any one that I want to read. I also listen to people from all different denominations- go to temple on occasion, observe Jewish holy days- pray to keep all of the commandments- and read the Gnostic gospels. I also pray and ask for revelation. I am very confident that there is nothing that you could explain to me. :) You are not going to find understanding in any one single translation. It is not there. God is love and is spirit. The great spirit in the sky, is the Holy Spirit. People have understood this for thousands of years- and somehow it has totally evaded you. That is a heart matter. THE one and only way to understand the ministry of Jesus- and to know God, is to be reborn with the Holy Spirit. that means that you allow your spirit to be alive. What deity of yours is going to do that for you? What deity of yours has shown you the way? I say none have. Jesus did tho- and that is historical not just spiritual. Since that is not something you are interested in understanding- your pursuit of knowledge of the Bible- is hopeless, because all you are going to learn is the ways of man and religion. Good luck with that. Man is a mess. Jesus is the hope of the entire world. Best wishes tho- have fun.
The download site is broken. You can buy a paperback version on-line for $13.99 at Amazon or Barnes and Nobel. Here is some more Christian theology for your consideration (this is jwpegler's view -- which has its roots in 2,000 year old Orthodox Christianity, a bit of Lutheranism, and some personal interpretations as well): Is the Bible the "inspired" Word of God or the "inerrant" Word of God? In other words, did God dictate word-for-word what the authors of the New Testament books wrote or did God just inspire them to what to write what God was communicating? It's an important question. Paul wrote a lot of letters to various peoples to convince them to accept Christ. The Roman Empire was the major political authority of the day. Paul tried to convince them that accepting Christ would not endanger their political authority. (Romans 13: It's okay to pay taxes, just accept Christ.) It worked. The Romans did accept Christ and it changed the history of the world. Paul also wrote the "Letters to the Hebrews" to try to convince them that Christianity was an extension of their historical beliefs, so they should accept Christ. In this case, it didn't work. Most Hebrews rejected Christ. (Dispensationalist Christians love to point to Hebrews as evidence that we need to kiss the Likud Party's ass to be saved. They don't just don't understand the historical context of Paul's writings.) Traditional Christianity believes that the New Testament is the inspired word of God, not the inerrant world of God. American dispensationalists believe otherwise. Paul was God's messenger, not his secretary. Paul was a salesman for Christ. Like all great salesmen, he tailored his message to his audience. He did a great job, for Christ. But he lost one big deal (the Hebrews). No salesman wins every deal.
LOL
I see .... what does the following passage mean: Certainly, since you read all of them [Bibles] you can find a moment to explain this single passage? I haven't suggested that I WOULD explain anything. Far from it, I have a relatively simple question and to this moment in the thread, you have yet to answer it. GREAT!!! So help me out on that one example I have cited above.
It's an important question. Good stuff, you suggest. Here is my perspective: The written Bible (The Old Testament) sprang from the Jewish Tankh and the forerunner of the Tanakh came from the Jewish Talmud comprised of Palestinian an Babylonian oral traditions for hundreds of years. When I was in a military class, there was an experiment on oral communications wherein there was a set of mutually exclusive participants comprised of four separate students, for notation: s1, s2, s3, and s4 where s1 was permitted to take his time and read some fairely minor details from a documents script. Once s1 completed his reading, the documented script was removed for the remainder of the exercise. s2 was invited to to come into the classroom. s1 then orally delivered the data to s2 with some fairely accurate reconstruction and then asked s2 if he was satisfied with the data. When s2 assured s1 that he was confident with the details, s1 was removed and now, s2 delivered the data to s3. Here was the main change in data and was very inaccurate. Once s2 was confident with the data (of course) s2 left the experiment and s3 came in .... and so on with s4. Now, s1 returns and retrieves the data from s4. The data was completely distorted and stripped of details that were very important within the experiment and ALL new data was delivered. This experiment categorically PROVES that the dissemination of information from one person to another through an oral approach can yield tragic results in the real world. So, let's go back to the the Jewish Talmud which was the oral tradition information dissemination of the Jews from generation to generation, in fact about 1500 years from Abraham/Sarah (circa ~2000 BCE) to the fall of Israel by the Babylonians and the resultant exile of the Jews from Israel to Babylon (circa ~500 BCE). When the Jews came back to Israel (circa ~500 BCE), they also brought back some interesting ideas from Sumerian/Babylonian religious thought that I think merged some of the oral traditions of the Jews into some more refinement concerning their monotheism, such as designing a written word, the Tanakh (circa ~400) But thousands of years elapsed before the Tanukh! Data handed down from cow herder to sheep herder begat this... begat that ... begat here ... begat there! Don't you think that there would be inaccuracies of the earlier generations through all that oral traditions? I do. As for the New Testament, we are confronted by the same situation although the Vulgate was designed (circa ~ 400 CE) just a few generations away (relatively speaking) from the Crucifixion of Christ (circa ~30 CE) Now, the Apostles traveled widely all over the Mediterranean area. All were crucified or put to death but John. He died about circa ~100 CE. It is important to know that because of the wide and varied traveling they independently pursued that differences occurred with the many early Christian Churches. Indeed, Mark established his domain in Alexandria Egypt and his foundations established the Copts whom created the GREATEST libraries around. But, none of their individual works or deeds were unified except through the Holy Roman Church, primarily via the Vulgate by Jerome whom studied in Alexandria and translated many of the canons later accepted in to the Vulgate. But, back to your question, it is obvious to me that we are dealing with fallible people separated by lengthy trips and as a result many variations in traditions. So, I agree with your view about Paul, as well. And any of the original texts are interpretations, although I would wager fairely accurate.
Honestly... I have to spend some more time trying to figure out why you don't see the common threads, that connect all of those interpretations. I am speechless that you don't see it. I'll have to figure you out later, buck. Lent is here. 40 days. See you after Easter. bye.
Me to. Here is the KJV again: Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. How did Kingdom of Heaven "suffer" violence? Seems pretty fishy to me. Yeah ... I scratch my head on this one. Why "figure" me out? Why not just interpret the passage? WoW ... are leaving me hanging here?
buck- honestly- I really am observing Lent, and praying and fasting and that has been a great experience, but I don't want to leave you hanging, and I apologize if that answer sounded curt. I didn't mean for it to sound negative. I honestly want to help you understand. BUT.. You have burned me in the past, and I really do not want to waste valuable energy arguing with you, or playing cyber games. If you are sincere about seeking this knowledge, I can think of nothing more valuable to do- right now- than hang out with you and discuss your questions. I want you to be honest, are you being authentic here? The message of all of those verses is the same. The Kingdom of Haven suffered violence when He was beaten to a bloody pulp, mocked and humiliated- and hung on a cross to be a curse, to absorb the wrath of God, to fulfill the law of atonement for sin- for every person on Earth. The violent take the Earth by force- and God sends us a savior- that whoever shall believe in Him shall be set free. God in not violent. He does not take the Earth by force. Each person has free will. Those verses are also to set the stage that Jesus knew that he would suffer violence- and he knew he was not going to bring an overthrowing of the violence. Jesus knew the violence of man was not going to stop- but that he was still willing to die- to make the statement that HE was the way to the Father and to Heaven. It leaves us a working legacy. That verse teaches us about the character of Jesus. Here is a man who knew exactly what violence he was going to face- and he faced. WHY would he do that? He did it because he is who he says he is- and.. Jesus showed us how to live in peaceful resistance ,to the violence of the world. The Bible speaks of the past, present and future at the same time. Just like there is the Trinity. To someone who does not understand the supernatural existence of God- these things make no sense at all. To gain understanding of anything in the Bible- you MUST first accept that God's ways are not man's ways. So listen- honestly- I want to take this time for my spiritual retreat- but I will respectfully address any sincere questions you have. Please don't play games. If you have an honest question, I will answer honestly and kindly, to the best of my ability. Just because it is the internet and we don't know each other- doesn't mean it is cool to waste each other's time. Ok?
I am always dismayed when I talk to American fundamentalists, who have no idea where the New Testament came from. Here's the short story: In the 300 hundred years after Christ was crucified, a lot of Christian groups sprung up in the Middle East, with widely different views of Christ's deity and humanity. There wasn't any New Testament. Some groups used word of mouth. Others collected various combinations of writings by the Apostles and others. In the early 4th century, leaders of the Western Church (Rome) and Eastern Church (Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem) decided Christianity needed an official version and a set of writings that would support it. It took them almost 100 years to put the New Testament together. During the 100 year process, there were many disagreements on what should be included. The four Gospels were universally accepted. Other books were hotly contested. The disputed books included Hebrews, James, 2nd and 3rd John, 2d Peter, Jude, Revelations, the Shepard of Hermas, Apocalypse of Peter, Epistle of Barnabas, and the Epistle of Clement. Finally in 396 AD, the new Testament was declared finalized. However there were still bibles produced in the east that contained Barnabas, but not Revelations for sometime after the decree. The decisions made about what to include in the New Testament are documented in the writings of the first seven Ecumenical Councils. Catholics and Orthodox look to those writings in addition to the New Testament because they tell why these particular books were chosen to be in the New Testament. Fundamentalist Protestants just don't have a clue about any of this. A few years ago I sat on a plane next to a fundamentalist preacher, who had his own unaffiliated church. He said flat out that what is wrong with American Protestantism is that they don't have any ties to history. Their congregations don't have any knowledge about the rich history of Christianity and how our current broad Christian views actually came into being. That's very sad. You have obviously been talking to the wrong people. The books of the New Testament were complete prior to the end of the First Century. http://www.errantskeptics.org/DatingNT-ChronologicalOrder.htm “You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thas miomxed in with a lot of other things. “When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined. You see, the canon is a list of authoritative books more than it is an authoritative list of books. These documents didn’t derive their authority from being selected; each one was authoritative before anyone gathered them together. The early church merely listened and sensed that these were authoritative accounts. “For somebody now to say that the canon emerged only after councils and synods made these pronouncements would be like saying, ‘Let’s get several academies of musicians to make a pronouncement that the music of Bach and Beethoven is wonderful.’ I would say, ‘Thank you for nothing! We knew it because of sensitivity to what is good music and what is not. The same with the canon.” Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, Ph.D. Paul joins OT and NT as both Scripture 1 Timothy 5:18 (ESV) For the Scripture says, *“You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, *“The laborer deserves his wages.” Deuteronomy 25:4 (ESV) OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I have 100+ Bibles, however I generally read the ESV, NIV, NLT, NASB1995, and the KJV for English translations. I also have Bibles in Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and several other languages, which I refer to occasionally.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
In other words, printers removed the Apocrypha from the Bible, not any church. That is not correct. The so-called missing books of the OT, known as the Apocrypha (meaning “hidden” or “doubtful”), are not missing and do not belong in the OT for many reasons. (1) Unlike the canonical books, the apocryphal books do not have either an explicit or implicit claim to be inspired by God. In fact, some even disclaim being prophetic (cp. 1 Mac 9:27; 14:41). (2) They were written between 250 B.C. and the first century A.D., but according to Judaism, the Spirit of prophecy had departed from Israel before that time, by about 400 B.C. (3) The Jewish historian Josephus gave the names and numbers of the authentic Jewish OT, which correspond exactly with the 39 books of our OT (Against Apion 1.8). (4) Judaism, which produced these books, has never accepted them into its Bible (the Hebrew Scriptures, corresponding to our OT). (5) Neither Jesus nor the apostles ever cited any of the Apocrypha in the NT as inspired. (6) Most of the church fathers of the first four centuries of the Christian church did not accept these books as inspired. (7) Jerome, the great Roman Catholic scholar (c. A.D. 420) who translated the Latin Vulgate Bible, emphatically rejected the apocryphal books. (8) The acceptance of these books in A.D. 1546 by the Roman Catholic Church is unjustified since: (a) they were the wrong group to make this decision (Christians, not Jews); (b) it took place at the wrong time (sixteenth century A.D.); and (c) it was done for the wrong reasons (for example, to support the doctrine of prayers for the dead [see 2 Mac 12:45] in response to the Reformation and biblical teaching to the contrary [Heb 9:27]).
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
The Greek Orthodox Church has recently release a new English translation of the New Testament called the Eastern / Greek Orthodox Bible. The OC used the NKJV for their NT.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
You are confusing 2 completely separate things: A.) When were the individual documents written? B.) When were the individual documents selected for inclusion into the official Christian Bible (the New Testament)? The answer to B is 396 AD. Prior to 396 AD, there were a lot of very, very different collections of writings that circulated among Christian. The Four Gospels were universally accepted. Many of the other books, that I name above, were NOT.
The American Orthodox Study Bible is based on NKJV. But the Bible used in Greek mass is the Patriarchal version on of 1906, written in Greek. That has now been translated into English for the first time.
Throughout history the Jews have been clueless. Ignore those retarded Messiah deniers.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
No. Prior to 396 AD (and for sometime after), many Bibles included the Shepherd of Hermas, the Epistle of Barnabas, and many others books that were not included in the final New Testament. A lot of Christians revered these books. Many of the Bibles in circulation did NOT include Revelations and other disputed books. These are called FACTS, not American dispensationalist propaganda.
Hey buck- I have looked back here a few times, to see if you answered. Unless I missed it, you didn't answer. That's cool- BUT.. I really am going deep into prayer for the whole weekend now, and I am not getting back online here. What I want to leave you with is that I honestly believe that you are valuable enough to have an honest discussion with-and that the Lord loves you, whether you call yourself a deist or not. Salvation is something that is written about FOR you. You are JUST as entitled to salvation as I am ,and no matter what you have done or called yourself- you are savable and wanted, as am I. (that goes for anyone reading) Ok? So we are equal in the eyes of the Lord. I am not an authority to you. The Lord is the authority and then there is everyone else. I just have a fear of the Lord, and a love for Jesus that is YET untapped in you- or at least in your postings here. The Bible can either be a book of lies and distortions OR the most simplest thing written, in the history of the world- laying out peace and healing and an abudnant life. It all starts with what we are afraid of. I, personally, am deeply afraid of a life where Jesus rots in a tomb. I have made a choice that my perception of life will not be from the eyes of a human being- who is not possible of healing, love and peace. And since I chose that- my life is blessed, safe and peaceful. THOSE are the consequences of my choice. We all make choices and live and die with those choices. I am praying for you. I am seeking your understanding of those scriptures in a new way, so you can make informed choices. I want that peace for you, in your life. In fact, I pray that anyone reading this- will have the same peace I have. I have to jet, and go into a spiritual weekend. I will look back here sometime next week to see if you want to chat. Take care. Oh and here is a tune: www.youtube.com/watch? v=GCi8P7W_tAw
Show me, in the canons of the Holy Bible where there is a reference to a "trinity." Thank you.
You are correct, I didn't answer. You have confused me with that which is simple. If what you say is true, how do you read: Just asking, of course.
This is good news! How do you reconcile the apparent differences of text within the two versions that hondo68 posted in #1 of this thread? Don't the two versions read differently?
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ. Ask a Catholic. I don't beleive in most things Catholics believe in - you would have to ask a Catholic. The power of God is within us, when we accept the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the kingdom of Heaven (aka -Kingdom of God).. (again, see the theme from the other verses?) Jesus lives in the faithful, by the indwelling - Holy Spirit. Have a good weekend. God bless you, buck. Hope that is helpful.
This thread is not designed to dispel your personal beliefs or religion, you are free to be what-ever-you-want. Have you read Flavius Josephus?
A.) When were the individual documents written? B.) When were the individual documents selected for inclusion into the official Christian Bible (the New Testament)? The answer to B is 396 AD. Prior to 396 AD, there were a lot of very, very different collections of writings that circulated among Christian. The Four Gospels were universally accepted. Many of the other books, that I name above, were NOT. I am very aware of the differencee between when the NT books were completed and the canon. The books of the NT were all completed prior to 100 AD. Several of the early church fathers wrote what books were part of the NT long before 396 AD, and they didn't need a church council to tell them what was canon, and neither do I. If you feel differently that's your issue, not mine.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Church doctrine almost always is based on the Greek or Hebrew text, and seldom if ever translations.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I see. So how did Jerome translate the Greek and Coptic texts at the Library of Alexandria, Egypt for the Vulgate into Latin in circa ~379 CE?
“Governing authorities” (cf. also NRSV; NIV; NASB; NJB) translates a phrase that is central to the interpretation of the paragraph. Like our “authority,” exousia refers broadly in secular and biblical Greek to the possession and exercise of (usually legitimate) power. As an abstract noun, the word usually denotes the concept of authority. Jesus’ well-known words in Matt. 28:18 use the word in a typical way: “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.” But the word can also have a concrete application, in which case exousia denotes a sphere over which authority is exercised (e.g., a “dominion”; cf. Luke 23:7) or the being who exercises authority.18 The latter is clearly how the word is used in Rom. 13:1. The NT refers to two different kinds of “beings” who exercise authority: a person in government (a “ruler”)19 and spiritual “powers.”20 A few scholars have argued that Paul may be referreferring at least partially to spiritual beings in Rom. 13:1.21 But this is unlikely.22 As parallel terms in this context suggest (cf. “rulers” [archontes] in v. 3), the “authorities” occupy positions in secular government. Paul qualifies them as “governing” in order to indicate that they are in positions of superiority over the believers he is addressing.23 Paul calls on believers to “submit”24 to governing authorities rather than to “obey” them; and Paul’s choice of words may be important to our interpretation and application of Paul’s exhortation. To submit is to recognize one’s subordinate place in a hierarchy, to acknowledge as a general rule that certain people or institutions have “authority” over us. In addition to governing authorities (cf. also Tit. 3:1), Paul urges Christians to submit to their spiritual leaders (1 Cor. 16:16) and to “one another” (Eph. 5:21); and he calls on Christian slaves to submit to their masters (Tit. 2:9), Christian prophets to submit to other prophets (1 Cor. 14:32), and Christian wives to submit to their husbands (1 Cor. 14:34 [?]; Eph. 5:24; Col. 3:18; Tit. 2:5).25 It is this general posture toward government that Paul demands here of Christians. And such a posture will usually demand that we obey what the governing authorities tell us to do. But perhaps our submission to government is compatible with disobedience to government in certain exceptional circumstances. For heading the hierarchy of relations in which Christians find themselves is God; and all subordinate “submissions” must always be measured in relationship to our all-embracing submission to him.26 ESV|°Let every person be subject to the governing authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God °, and those that exist have been °instituted by God. °Therefore whoever resists the °authorities resists what God has °appointed , and those who °resist will °incur judgment °. For rulers °are not a terror °to good conduct , but °to bad . °Would you °have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is °good, and °you will °receive his approval, °for he is God’s servant °for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword °in vain . °For he is °the servant of God , an °avenger who carries out God’s wrath °on the wrongdoer. Therefore °one must be in subjection , not only °to avoid God’s wrath but also °for the sake of conscience. °For because of this you also °pay taxes, for the authorities are °ministers of God , °attending to °this very thing . °Pay to all what °is owed to them : °taxes to whom taxes are owed , °revenue to whom revenue is owed , °respect to whom respect is owed , °honor °to whom honor is owed . 49.7% difference AMP|°LET EVERY person be loyally subject to the governing (civil) authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God °[by His permission, His sanction], and those that exist °do so by °God’s appointment . °Therefore he who °resists and sets himself up against the °authorities resists what God has °appointed and arranged [in divine order]. And those who °resist will bring down judgment °upon themselves °[receiving the penalty due them]. For °civil authorities are not a terror °to [people of] good conduct , but °to [ those °of] bad behavior . °Would you °have no dread of °him who is in authority? Then do what is right and °you will °receive his approval and commendation . For he is God’s servant °for your good. But if you do wrong, [you should dread him and] be afraid, for he does not bear and wear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant °to execute His wrath °( punishment , vengeance) on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be subject , °not only °to avoid God’s wrath and escape punishment , but also °as a matter of principle and for the sake of conscience. °For this same reason you pay taxes, for [ the civil authorities ] are °official servants under God , °devoting themselves to attending to °this very service . °Render to all men their dues. [Pay] taxes to whom taxes are due , °revenue to whom revenue is due , °respect to whom respect is due , °and honor °to whom honor is due . 55% difference NASB95|°Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities °. For there is no authority except °from God, and those which °exist °are established by God. °Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the °ordinance of God °; and °they who °have opposed will °receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers °are not a cause of fear for °good behavior , but for °evil . Do you want to °have no fear of °authority? °Do what is °good and °you will °have praise from the same; °for it is °a minister of God to °you for good. But if you do °what is evil , be afraid °; for °it does not bear the sword for nothing °; for it is °a minister of God , an °avenger who brings wrath °on the °one who practices evil . Therefore °it is necessary to °be in subjection , not only because of °wrath, but also °for conscience ’ sake . °For because of this you also °pay taxes, for °rulers are °servants of God , °devoting themselves to °this very thing . °Render to all what °is due them : °tax to whom tax is due ; °custom to whom custom ; °fear to whom fear ; °honor °to whom honor. 55% difference
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
In the West the church primarily used Latin after the end of the second century, and unofficial translations were made. In the fourth century Pope Damasus I invited Jerome to revise current Latin translations based on Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. Jerome completed the new translation after 18 years of work at Bethlehem. Jerome’s translation came to be the accepted Bible, and by a.d. 1200 was called the Vulgate, the official version for the Roman Catholic Church.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Questions About The Bible The Bible has many faces. It can be studied as literature and explored as a set of stories and poetic expressions, or viewed as history which tells us of the beginnings and growth of God’s people. For some it is a guide to Archeology, pointing the way to buried civilizations. There is a place and a purpose for each of those aspects, but at the basis of all, the Bible is the Word of God. It is God’s message to a rebelling world of how it can return to Him. It is a love letter from God to us. But do we take this claim seriously? Or are we interested only in one aspect? How important is the Bible? The earlier chapters of this book have shown that we can know that God exists, what He is like, how He can overcome evil, that He can perform miracles, and that Jesus is God without ever referring to the Bible as a sacred book. However, it must be said that while these arguments don’t rely on the Bible, they are guided by it. They take the path of reason to reach these conclusions, but they are directed by the revelation. Without the Word of God, there is no guarantee that anyone would ever reach these conclusions. Even if they did, there might not be many who found them, and there is no telling how long it would take or how much error might be included along the way. Also, reason can take us only one step farther. That step leads us to the Scriptures as God’s Word. If we are to have any knowledge of God’s saving grace and love, then we must have the Word of God. The big question is, “Is the Bible really a revelation from God?” That is the question we will try to answer in this chapter. HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD? We know that the Bible came from God for one very simple reason: Jesus told us so. It is on His authority, as the God of the universe, that we are sure that the Bible is the Word of God. He confirmed the Old Testament’s authority in His teaching, and He promised an authoritative New Testament through His disciples. The Son of God Himself assures us that the Bible is the Word of God. JESUS CONFIRMED THE AUTHORITY OF THE OLD TESTAMENT Jesus spoke of the whole Old Testament (Matt. 22:29), its central divisions (Luke 16:16), its individual books (Matt. 22:43; 24:15), its events (19:4–5; Luke 17:27), and even its letters and parts of letters (Matt. 5:18) as having divine authority. He called the Scriptures the Word of God (John 10:35). He said that they had been written by men moved by the Spirit when He said, “David himself said in the Holy Spirit” (Mark 12:36) and refers to events “spoken of through Daniel the prophet” (Matt. 24:15). In such statements He confirms the authorship of the most often disputed books, like Moses’ writings (Mark 7–10), Isaiah (v. 6), Daniel, and the Psalms. He also refers to the very miracles which critics reject as historical events. He cites the Creation (Luke 11:51), Adam and Eve (Matt. 19:4–5), Noah and the Flood (24:37–39), Sodom and Gomorrah (Luke 10:12), and Jonah and the great fish (Matt. 12:39–41). He said, “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of the letter of the Law to fail” (Luke 16:17). The fact that He considered the Scripture to be the final authority is seen clearly in His temptations, when He defends himself from Satan’s attacks three times with the phrase, “It is written” (Matt. 4:4ff). JESUS PROMISED THE NEW TESTAMENT Jesus told His disciples just before He left them, “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you” (John 14:25–26). Jesus added, “When He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come” (16:13). These statements promise that the teachings of Jesus will be remembered and understood, and that additional truths would be given to the apostles so that the church could be established. They set the stage for the apostolic era which began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1ff) and continued until the last of the apostles died (John, about a.d. 100). During this period, the apostles became the agents of the complete and final revelation of Jesus Christ and He continued “to do and teach” through them (Acts 1:1). They were given the “keys to the kingdom” (Matt. 16:19) and by their hands did believers receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:14–15; 19:1–6). The early church built its doctrines and practices on “the foundation of the apostles” (Eph. 2:20). It followed the “apostles’ teaching” (Acts 2:42) and was bound by decisions of the apostolic council (Acts 15). Even though Paul had received his apostleship by a revelation from God, his credentials were confirmed by the apostles in Jerusalem. Some of the New Testament writers were not apostles, though. How can we explain their authority? They used the apostolic message which was “confirmed to us by those who heard” (Heb. 2:3). Mark worked closely with Peter (1 Peter 5:13); James and Jude were closely associated with the apostles in Jerusalem and were probably Jesus’ brothers; Luke was a companion of Paul (2 Tim. 4:11) who interviewed many eyewitnesses to produce his account (Luke 1:1–4). Paul’s writings are even equated with Scripture by Peter (2 Peter 3:15–16). In each case (with the exception of Hebrews; we don’t know for sure who wrote that book), there is a definite link between the writer and the apostles who gave them information (cf. 2:3). Now if Jesus, who was God in the flesh and always spoke the truth, said that the Old Testament was the Word of God and that the New Testament would be written by His apostles and prophets as the sole authorized agents for His message, then our entire Bible is proven to be from God. We have it on the best of authority—Jesus Christ Himself.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Nice definitive explanation. How come it does not take into account the issues that Paul was confronting with Rome from on a historical basis in order to arrive at the explanation? I have been reading "Romans: A Shorter Commentary" by C. E. B Cranfield and 13:1-7 are not what you think from a general or broadview position. In fact, I find your discussion further PROOF of the dolts that read and interpret the scriptures as reason NOT to read their ideas other than in a mocking sort of way. I think the entire Bible MUST be taken from a historical context, too.
You are ignorant of history, like most American dispensationalists. There is no point in having a conversation with someone who is too stubborn to learn.
We know that the Bible came from God for one very simple reason: Jesus told us so. How is that possible? First, the NT wasn't written in a collective manner with some texts integrated into the canon and others not before Jesus' crucifixion; that even was some 300+ years later. But, just preceding the time of Jerome's synthesis and reproduction of the NT, here comes the Talmud! (circa ~200 CE): There was no Bible, as a complete Jewish history (OT) was always oral not written and to this very day many Jews reject the Talmud altogether as is pointed out in the video.
Buck- what annoys me about you, the very most is that you ask personal questions and then you rebuke the answer. It totally annoys me. It is so rude. THAT is why humans need a savior, to learn to be kind to one another. Anyway- yes I have read. I tell you my personal faith, because you seem to be ignorant to the fact that not everyone reads the cannon, which is what YOU asked about. People who call themselves Christians do not all have faith in the same things. THAT fact speaks directly to the reason there are different translations and interpretations. Jesus warned us about men and power trips and their religion. He told us to rebel against religion. You talk about a rebel.. he was a rebel against religion. Read the Bible. I am telling you who I am, so you can start to understand the foundation of what I am sharing with you. For example, gary and I do not have faith in the same things at all. His brand of christian and mine are not the same. I look at gary's behavior and I do not see Jesus. THAT is all I need to know. I don't think the source of his religion and my faith is the same, as a matter of fact. He and I do not operate the same, read the same things in the Scriptural- or have the same understanding of God. SO- you are going to get two very different explanations of Scripture from the two of us. You should understand that every person who you seek answers from is going to put our experiences into our understanding. My experiences with Jesus are personal- profound, radical, healing and audacious. I had a radical transformation and walk in great blessings and good health. That is what I bring to the table. Don't want to know about that? Then stop asking me. And yes, history is very important and sound theology is very , very important- but the Bible says that all understanding starts with the fear of the lord- and is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Gary has neither. Gary is all about religion- nothing spiritual or supernatural. There are people, such as myself, who believe God is spirit and supernatural. KNOW the difference and you will gain understanding of why there are so many interpretations. Want to know WHO is the closest to Holy and accurate- then look at the person's life and the blessings - peace and good health of the person. THAT is called the fruit. Matt 7:16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Like there is proof in the pudding.... well, there is proof in the fruit. So- know WHO you are talking to, and what they believe- while you seek. In fact, want to get directly to the heart of WHO is God, and what are HIS ways? Stop reading everyone's opinions and get on your knees and pray. You have a brain and a heart. Open them to God, and He will answer you. God bless you buck. This is a great season to be seeking. I pray you find all your answers. :) Blessed be the name of the Lord, Jesus.
There are also huge differences between the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox versions of the Old Testament.
I am not interested in your personal faith. If you are annoyed, it is because of THAT fact. I am interested in WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE YOU READ. You don't seem to have a handy Bible available. Why?
JW - You are on "TOP" of this thread. You seem to understand that the documentation that we have at our disposal is diverse. This is why there are so many variations in Jewish faith (tons of variations, BTW) as well as variations in the Christian faith (many more tons, BTW). I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion. Weird, isn't it?
No it's not weird it's typical, and just another example of that 'rugged individualism' we love to brag about. How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
The story of the ancient world is recorded by several historians of old, such as Homer, Josephus, Tacitus, Xenophon, Herodotus—called “the father of history,” and Thucydides, who is credited as being one of the most trustworthy of ancient sources. All of them suffer in comparison to the historical pinpoint accuracy of Luke. Luke was undeniably brilliant, possessing remarkable literary abilities and a deep knowledge of the Greek language. He was the only non-Jewish author of the Bible. Yet he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else—28 percent. He was a physician and a scientist. He was a writer and a medical missionary. He has proved himself a historian of first rank. Here he tells us that before writing his Gospel, he did the work of an investigative journalist, recording his findings in an orderly manner based on careful investigation: “It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” ( With that in mind, remember that Luke painstakingly and confidently described the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in his Gospel, chapters 23 and 24; and he repeatedly made reference to the Resurrection in the book of Acts. The brilliant Wilbur Smith said: "Of all the writers in the New Testament, Luke was the one who knew better than any of them, from his own medical experience, that it was utterly impossible for a dead body to come to life again by its own power. He was also a man who would have no faith in such a great doctrine as the resurrection of Christ, were it based upon a vision, a hallucination, mental excitement, or the blowing of the wind, or the rattling of a window. It was the conviction of this scientist and scholar, true Grecian and true Christian, that the Lord manifested himself to his disciples in many proofs." To reject the Resurrection, you have to disregard the demonstrated reliability of one of the foremost historians of the first century, a man who has been proven accurate even in the minutia of his narrative. How accurate was Luke's historical record? He tied everything into history and gave us historical anchors all along the way, both in his Gospel and Acts. His historical pegs have proven accurate even in minute points. For example, notice the way he began chapter 2: those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to his own town to register” (Luke 2:1–3). Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria. A hundred years ago, critics had a field day with that statement, finding no evidence in history to suggest that Caesar ever issued such a decree. Furthermore (critics charged) there was nothing to suggest that Quirinius was ever governor of Syria at the time prescribed by Luke. Then a series of discoveries were made. Sir William Ramsay, the Scottish archaeologist, dug up first-century documents showing that the Roman Empire conducted a regular taxpaying census every fourteen years and that this system originated in the days of Caesar Augustus. Another document was found in Egypt, an edict of G. Vibius Maximus written on papyrus, describing the procedure used in such a census, directing taxpayers to return to their ancestral towns to register. Another inscription discovered by Ramsay in Antioch showed that with brief interruptions, a man named Quirinius functioned as military governor in Syria from 12 b.c. to a.d. 16. Notice in the next chapter, Luke 3, how meticulously Luke nails down his historical references: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene—during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert” (Luke 3:1–2) Sound like misty legend and fabricated fable? Anything but! Luke tacks John’s ministry to the wall of history using six different pins. John the Baptist appeared when (1) Tiberius Caesar was in his fifteenth year of rule; (2) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; (3) Herod was tetrarch of Galilee; (4) Herod’s brother Philip was tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis; (5) Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene; and (6) Annas and Caiaphas were sharing the office of high priest. Most of these facts are easy to verify, but a couple of them caused problems. A hundred years ago, critics were attacking Luke’s reference to Lysanias, saying, “The only Lysanias mentioned in history was killed in 36 b.c., sixty years before John the Baptist.” But the critics were stilled when archaeologists excavated an inscription near Damascus, stating that a man named Lysanias was indeed tetrarch of Abilene at the time mentioned by Luke. The skeptics also made hay with Pontius Pilate. For most of modern history his name has been absent on every historical document we have from the ancient world. Critics charged that Pilate was a fabrication. But a stone I have personally seen and took a picture of was excavated in Caesarea. It has the name Pontius Pilate plainly engraved for all the world to see. He was governor of Judea during the very time given by Luke, and he was headquartered at Caesarea. I mentioned earlier how William Ramsay traveled to the Middle East to disprove Luke’s historical references and how, to his great surprise, he found the writings of Luke accurate in their tiniest details. This is even more remarkable when we consider that every other historian in the ancient world—men like Polybius, Quintilian, Xenophon, Josephus, and even Thucydides—did not hesitate to misrecord the facts to suit their own purposes.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists. So, their individual faith was not an important issue.
Yep.... a certain amount of group think was insured, and by force if need be. Isn't that what the current type of conservatives love to bitch about?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Ok- so you are just playing games. I told you- I read any of them I want to read. I answered that question - you asked more. I answered- you spit. I wanted to be open and honest- you bark. Typical buck. There is no transformation here. I thought so, but I wanted to experiment with what would happen if turned around and authentically answered your questions from a human place. So I did that ,and you play games. For anyone reading that is why we need to ask God to transform us into the beings He would like us to be. The world is full of ego driven- selfish people, who are very abusive to our spirits. Someone has to pay for that sin. Someone always does- your lover, wife, children, friends, co-workers... anyone who is around you, buck- pays for your ego. If you are smart- you seek Jesus and accept His gift of debt free peace. OR- you can play games with theologians, who have no fruit in their lives- and pretend along with them that you are trying to understand. OR you are looking for comfort in someone's words that you don't need God- because their ideas are nuts. God isn't fooled. Play your games. Pay the consequences. I am so thankful for an awesome God who blesses me, and gives me all understanding. Anyone else reading- this is for you- not buck-if you want the answers and blessings, they are for YOU too. Get into any Bible, and when you have a question, seek God- by praying - and asking for understanding. God will show up. The love, joy,peace, good fortune, good health, relationships, adventure and daily blessings are for anyone. THAT is the gospel. You do have to give up sin- and ego, and chaos and illness - however. The only thing I have that is different from those who attack me- is that I have a fear of Lord, I love Jesus will all my heart-mind and soul and I have surrendered a broken life of pain and abuse. I get attacked by people who are addicted to their illness and sin. Don't let anyone tell you that THIS peaceful life isn't for you- or you have to have some lofty knowledge of history.. or you have to recite some list of prayers in a perfect way. Those are lies. The Lord transformed my life- and restored my joy, and made every single ache and pain of life - so beautiful. Whoever you are who is following along- It is for you as well. Start in the gospel of John and keep reading. Or start anywhere. If you want a transformation in your life- you have to change the way you think. God bless you all. Peace.
Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? At any rate, you wrote: Now, we are getting somewhere! The history of the Jews/Rome (circa ~67 BCE) is the crux of the New Testament. Prior to 67BCE, there were Essenes, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. After Pompeii's conquest of Syria/Judea/Israel something amazing happened: a new Jewish sect rose up against the Pharisees and the Romans. That was the fourth group: the Zealots. When the Zealots rose up and attacked the Romans because of TAXATION, the Zealots lost time and again (circa ~4 CE) but this continual conflict created a blood lust against the Jews. Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective.
No you didn't. You said, "read ALL of them." That infers you have some 100+ Bibles in front of you at all times which is absurd.
The Mishnah is not part of the Bible, but a record of Jewish oral tradition. The O.T. Canon was closed prior to the writing of the Mishnah. MISHNA [MISH nah] (repetition) — the first, and basic, part of the Talmud and the written basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism. The Mishna contains a written collection of traditional laws (halakoth) handed down orally from teacher to student. It was compiled across a period of about 335 years, from 200 b.c. to a.d. 135. The Mishna is grouped into 63 treaties, or tractates, that deal with all areas of Jewish life—legal, theological, social, and religious—as taught in the schools of Palestine. Soon after the Mishna was compiled, it became known as the “iron pillar of the Torah,” since it preserves the way a Jew can follow the Torah. For many Jews, the Mishna ranks second only to the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, many Jews consider it part of the Torah. Because it is the core for both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, the Mishna serves as a link between Jews in the land of Israel and Jews scattered around the world.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? I have a large Logos Bible Software collection, and Ramsey's 7 volume works are included.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Yes, I am aware of theses groups. That said, there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Lets break this down a bit (I am not arguing, I am trying to learn this stuff) ... The Torah = first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures that is the oral Torah The Tanakh = the entire kit set of oral and written documents finally completed in ~600 CE) Fix the above stuff before we can go on. Because THE REALLY BIG STUFF IS history of the Zealots, IMO.
They were Jews, correct? Just so you know, the Zealots were centralized in Galilee ... guilt by association with Jesus and associates? Hmmmm.
Oh God bless you buck. You are stuck. You are in a box. You only understand what the eyes of your flesh tell you is true. You only have faith in humans. If I have an internet connection I have access to every bible and all the gospels and every way of thinking- at my fingertips. So it is more ridiculousness that you are chatting with me online- and do not make the connection that I can look up anything I want to look up- in .2 seconds. I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions. Pay attention, or the world is going to pass you by- and you will never understand anything. You are lead by people who tell you what you want to hear, because it soothes your ego. Jesus was a rebel because He is telling you not to be held in bondage to other people's ideas. You gotta get out of your ego- and open your heart and your mind- and be transformed by the renewal of your mind. :) Romans 12:2 Here is a whole bunch of translations- read them all- google more if you want. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A2&version=NIV You do not need anyone else, other than God, to tell you which one of these is the right one. That is true for anyone. :) Best wishes- I am going to back to observing a peaceful Lent, learning the ways of my Lord. I pray you are blessed with understanding and joy in the Lord, today. I thank you for this time, because it is actually valuable to me, in understanding human nature. So, while it is right in line with my Lent observation- I am not going to get back here for awhile again.
So, their individual faith was not an important issue. I am going to emphatically disagree. Only two, Jefferson and Franklin, we're Deists, and their form of Deism was not at all like today's Deism or atheism. See for yourself. What did our Founding Fathers have to say? Was America founded by Christians? Was it founded to be a Christian nation? "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.","Give me liberty or give me death. "Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention. http://www.errantskeptics.org/ChristianNation.htm Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention. It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Part of our commitment should be to raise Old Glory across the nation's flagpoles and http://www.errantskeptics.org/Quotes_Founding- Fathers.htmbe grateful we live in a nation committed to these ideals.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Have you read and understood the thread banner? It poses a simple question. Take a peek at it before posting again on this thread. If you don't want to answer the simple question posted at the top of the thread, just say so and move on or don't post at all. If you do want to answer the question, please be factual instead of elusive to the question. You do not read 100+ Bibles at any one time despite that which you claim.
I dispute what you are suggesting for several reasons. First, there is a known association of the "closeness" of the local church with community activities in very early colonial America by local leaders and of course they went to a Christian church and were active within local community efforts. To be otherwise, could ensure being ostracized from their relative positions. But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain. In fact, within the Declaration of Independence (written by TJ) Jefferson's inclusion of the slavery issue was completely removed by the Continental Congress. There was no consensus of or about a Christian concept in that exclusion in the concept of slavery. Jefferson threw EVERYTHING at King George ... yet the adoption of the DoI doesn't indicate one iota of "faith" or a "religion" certainly not from a Christian perspective.
The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Very true. Just look at the "10 Commandments". The "10 Commandments" appears twice in the Bible -- in Exodus and Deuteronomy. They are not identical. There were three attempts to organize these rules into 10 commandments: 1.) The Philonic division. Eastern Orthodox and most Protestants use this version. 2.) The Talmudic version. 3.) The Augustinian version. Catholics and Lutherans use this version. What do America dispensationalists say about this? The Catholics "changed" the 10 commandments, so it must be the work of Satan. What a hoot.
Tanakh - A New Translation of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES According to the Traditional Hebrew Text. (copied from title page) TORAH The Hebrew word Torah means teaching or instruction. Used originally to refer to specific instances of instruction in Israel’s story (cf. Exod. 13:9; 18:16; Num. 19:2; Deut. 17:8–11; Josh. 1:7–8; Jer. 6:19), Torah later became a technical term referring to the Pentateuch. It is also used in a broader sense to refer to the totality of Jewish teaching, both written and oral. Because Israel’s Torah abounds in commandments and statutes, both ethical and ritual, the word law is frequently used as synonymous with Torah. The understanding of Torah as law is already apparent in the LXX, where Torah is translated as nomos (law), and the NT builds on this understanding. However, Israel’s Torah is more than legal codes. It is God’s instruction to Israel on how to keep the covenant, instruction set in the context of story and promise. So it is that Matthew can speak of Jesus as coming to fulfill the law, the Torah (cf. also TBC on 5:17–48). TALMUD — a collection of books and commentary compiled by Jewish rabbis from a.d. 250–500. The Hebrew word talmud means “study” or “learning.” Btw, the Torah is not oral.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Exactly. I think hondo68 (way up the thread) provided this link: The reason for the link is the complete denial of some of Paul's readings in Romans 13:1-7. A good Christian would bow down to government, if you read that crap.
Thanks for the clarification. This is the education that I am after, FWIW. Here to compliment your understanding is a quick rundown by a YouTube clip:
So, if you had a chance to view that video: it is the ORAL LAW not the Bible that establishes the Jewish traditions. Jesus was a Jew, for sure. Why would he reference a document (the Bible) that wasn't around at his time?
The word "Religion" as used by the Founders meant denomination. You might not be aware of it, but. Several states had their own denomination as late as 1820. And this is important to note, the early Americas came here seeking freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion. The colonies had state churches. Furthermore, the Founders had CONTEMPT for atheism. Does Franklin sound like a modern Deist? Benjamin Franklin in a letter to the President of the first Constitutional Congress, 1789: " I have lived a long time, Sir, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that " except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and hat one or more Clergy of the city be requested to officiate in that service." speech to Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787 , America's God and Country, William Federer, pp.247-248 As it turned out, after the convention, and nine days after the first Constitutional Congress convened with a quorum (April 9, 1789), the Congress implemented Franklin's recommendation. Two chaplains of different denominations were appointed, one of the House and one to the Senate, with a salary of $500 apiece. This practice continues today, posing no threat to the first Amendment. How could it? The men who authorized the chaplains wrote the Amendment. Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration, US Minister to England and France, oldest Founding Father: "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern." America's God and Country, William Federer, p.251
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I watched the video. The Orthodox and Conservative Jews see authority for their belief system in the written Word, whereas Reformed Jews do not. My mentor and best friend for ten years was a Jew, who converted to Christianity.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Excellent citation, but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic. We recently clearly see how the eradication and undermining of Christianity in American has created a far more fundamentally immoral, un-ethical,and dishonorable Republic while instead embracing the moral relativism of secular humanism is now accepted.
Noah Webster: "The command of God is ' He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in fear of God.' 2 Sam. 23:3. This command prescribes the only effectual; remedy for public evils. It is an absurd and impious sentiment, that religious character is not necessary for public officers…But surely as there is a God in heaven who exercises a moral government over affairs of this world, so certainly will the neglect of the divine command, in the choice of rulers, be followed by bad laws, crimes, waste of public money, and a thousand other evils. Men devise and adopt new forms of government; they amend old forms, repair breaches, and punish violators of the constitution; but there is, there can be, no effectual remedy, but obedience to The Divine Law." John Marshal argued, by some to be our greatest Chief Justice of the Supreme Court: "The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."…letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Excellent discussion. I found your same or similar table on WikiPedia, BTW. It is interesting to note that there is quite a bit of similarities, herein, irrespective of Bible translations or interpretations or versions, at least from my perspective. And, the Ten Commandments is the bedrock for Judaism and Christianity and Muslim faiths.
The founders and framers all had a variety of beliefs, that is for certain. But if they wanted to found a theocracy similar to that of Britain they certainly could have done so. Instead they used it as the example they didn't want to imitate.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
We recently clearly see how the eradication and undermining of Christianity in American has created a far more fundamentally immoral, un-ethical,and dishonorable Republic while instead embracing the moral relativism of secular humanism is now accepted. I guess the Church of England practicing Britain must be the exception.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
And Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. What faction of the Jews did he represent? At his time: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Zealots represented the known Jewish factions according to Josephus' in "Jewish Antiquities. It is important to understand the historical roots of his Jewish background and the historical roots in Jewish in-fighting AND the Roman bloodbath.
Baloney, where do you think we got our 3 branches of government from? Madison found it in the Bible. James Madison, At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22; “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us.” [Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater] "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ." James Madison - America's Providential History p. 93. "While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe, the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to them whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance (Massachusetts: Isaiah Thomas, 1786). This can be found in numerous documentary histories and other resources. The religion of divine origin was obviously Christianity, of which Madison said he was convinced. "Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it." James Madison response to an essay/sermon by Reverend Jasper Adams. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117. "Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other." James Madison, ca. 1789, cited in Gaillard Hunt, James Madison and Religious Liberty (Washington: American Historical Association, Government Printing Office, 1902), p. 166. • I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773) • In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. “ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government' far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the 10 commandments."
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
None of the four.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I would not include Muslims in that group.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
So that must mean the founders should have created a theocracy, because one found inspiration in the Bible.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Does John Adams sound like a Deist? John Adams, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821 "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40. "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military. "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756. "The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796. John Adams and John Hancock: "We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! " April 18, 1775 "A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? ...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "...a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, dated June 21, 1776. "The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever."
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Read carefully the first quote by Washington? does he sound like a Deist? What does this tell you about his view of atheism? George Washington, "The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -- George Washington in his Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789 "Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency" From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress. "Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."-- George Washington, ca. 1789, Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106. "And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the Earth...:grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by endeavors to fear and obey Thee." George Washington "The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776 "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." George Washington--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
BAH! You must have skipped class in a formal institution concerning History of America that day, while attending a local church about some sermon practicing HELL_FIRE&DAMNATION if you are not baptized in the blood of Christ. This is incorrect from a historical perspective. The idea of taking up arms against the British wasnot and isnot a CHRISTIAN concept. Similar to the poppycock about the same in a modern sense: GOTO WAR AGAINST THE MUSLIMS. It is all pure unadulterated crapola. It is total chicanery that you have fallen for.
Why not? All three religious groups (Jews, Christians and Muslims) use Abraham/Sarah as the foundation for their respective faiths.
Deism and atheism are not the same concepts. You are incorrect from a conceptual perspective.
John Adams wanted strong central government where power rested with a few people. Adams and the Federalists also opposed the Bill Of Rights. While President, Adams trampled on the Bill of Rights by passing the Alien and Sedition Acts, which among other things empowered the President to imprison people who spoke in a "false, scandalous and malicious" manner against the government. (Adams was kind of the George Bush of his day!) John Adams is hardly a paragon of American thought. I wouldn't be quoting him too much if I were you.
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821 So they copied certain principles of Christianity that could also be found in any number of other religions. And it's not like most colonists then wouldn't have been familiar and more accepting......
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
GarySpFC: None of the four. Are you saying that Jesus of Nazareth was not a Jew? If Jesus was Jew, he had to have identified with one of those four Jewish factions, already suggested. If he was not a Jew, what was he, then? How come, at a young age, did Jesus goto Egypt? For a vacation? Or, was he taken to avoid the Romans? If he was identified as a Jewish Zealot, it is understandable about his journey. If he belonged to any of the other Jewish factions, it is not understandable unless there is some data to show that Joesph and Mary were shamed by the Galilee Jewish community for Jesus' birth.
That's not correct. Where do you think the term unalienable rights originated? Are you aware that American Churches and pastors played a major role in the Revolution? When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's Godentitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
So how was taking up arms against a Christian theological entity such as Britain considered a Christian concept? Are you saying that in a Christian theocracy, unalienable rights cannot exist?
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Bull crap! It was a Christian duty to refuse to worship King George, and rebel.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
I think you are mistaken by magnitudes of order. You are simply rallying to the feverish, emotional battle-cry of the day as delivered by sermons across the colonial colonies. It was NOT a pure Christian duty. BTW, this same feverish pitch of small churches occurred across America prior to the War Between the States in regards to abolition. Of course, today, we are stuck with the impact of the federal government interfering in just about everything around our lives. And today, in America, here we are again: ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS! Off to Tehran, Iran to fight for Jerusalem!
That isn't true. It isn't the bedrock for the muslim cult. ¶ I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. ¶ Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (They worship the dead man mohammad). Thou shalt not kill. (Their cult book says to kill Christians and jews) Thou shalt not steal. (They want to steal the promised land from the Jews. In fact they still occupy much of Israel.) Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Their toilet paper cult book the Koran says to lie to non muslims.) Commandment 10: Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's (The Muslims covet what God gave Israel.) So no buckeroo the so called muslim faith isn't based on the 10 commandments.
Prove to me that the Muslims deny Abraham/Sarah/Isaiah whom are the same roots of Judaism and Christianity. Keep in mind, while performing your research, that I know better. So prove to me your perspective with links or references. Find your authoritative references BEYOND some other HELLFIRE&DAMNATION Sunday school church meeting that you may frequent. Your help is appreciated.
They worship Mohammad. They say to kill christians and Jews. They want the land God gave the Jews. Those are just a few of the facts about the muslim cult that you seem to like so much.
Really? Where are your authoritative references as I requested? Certainly you have at least one authoritative reference handy within your fantastick and knowledgeable repertoire of understanding which you intend to convey supporting your personal opinion.
Thanks but no thanks. Better things to do right now. What I said is true.
Really? Where is your supporting material to prove your viewpoint? I would enjoy studying your authoritative reference. Thanks in advance.
Are you saying that Jesus of Nazareth was not a Jew? If Jesus was Jew, he had to have identified with one of those four Jewish factions, already suggested. If he was not a Jew, what was he, then? No. I am saying he was not a member of any of those groups. He wasn't required to be a member of a group. How come, at a young age, did Jesus goto Egypt? For a vacation? Or, was he taken to avoid the Romans? If he was identified as a Jewish Zealot, it is understandable about his journey. If he belonged to any of the other Jewish factions, it is not understandable unless there is some data to show that Joesph and Mary were shamed by the Galilee Jewish community for Jesus' birth. No, his parents took him to Egypt to escape Herod. He was less than two years old.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Read the Declaration of Independence from beginning to end, and then tell me if you think King George was a Christian.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
The 10 Commandments came on the scene via Moses about 600 years after Abraham.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
How do you know? Herod was affiliated with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, whom enjoyed their relative and lofty positions with the Roman triumph over the Jews. So, why would Jesus of Nazareth (or his immediate family leading the journey) escape to Egypt? Were Jesus' parents afraid of retribution from Herod for belonging to a different faction of the Jews?
It depends on which side of the Atlantic you take sides with, doesn't it?
Of course. You have actually added to the thread not denying or suggesting otherwise that the three great religions are mutually inclusive from the original Jewish documents, circa ~1250 BCE.
That's true, but the moon god is their deity which is why they use the muzlim crescent moon symbol. They switched to a fake god, so they're outa Judaism! They're about on a par with wiccans, satan worshipers.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
You're beginning to sound like a Canadian Tory in an Alaskan bathhouse. Long live the Queens! Bucky wuz hacked!
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
BAH! The Muslims don't believe in any God but one: Allah, even their prophet Muhammad is not considered a "god" much less the symbolism you suggest. The symbolism of the crescent moon is because Mecca from the early days.
You are not going to get a straight answer from these clowns. Especially Bozo the AKA, who you always know is absolutely wrong when he claims to be right.
ROTFL. Still, the American revolution had little to do with Christian ideas. The revolution was basically over taxation and the elimination of British rule from across the Atlantic. Where does the word "Christian" appear in the DoI or the USC?
Heya Mike - I can tell, you know the reasons for this thread. It is apparent from your post. With a wee bit of luck, some of the ideas shall "rub off" to others even if those ideas posted are not mine. But, one of the shackles of modern day life is this "religious" characterization for either supporting political debate or not. One of my ideas, although not advanced with supporting material (just yet) is that Jesus of Nazareth was caught up in a revolution in Judea at around the time of severe subjugation by both the Romans and Jews. The resultant events created the myths we read, irrespective of the variation of the Bible anyone reads. Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL!
I am saying he [Jesus of Nazareth] was not a member of any of those groups. He wasn't required to be a member of a group. Forty years of studying every minute detail of Christ's life. his [Jesus of Nazareth] parents took him to Egypt to escape Herod. He was less than two years old. Herod was affiliated with the Pharisees and the Sadducees, whom enjoyed their relative and lofty positions with the Roman triumph over the Jews. So, why would Jesus of Nazareth (or his immediate family leading the journey) escape to Egypt? Were Jesus' parents afraid of retribution from Herod for belonging to a different faction of the Jews? Herod was affiliated with the Herodians, and was an evil butcher, even murdering his own sons. Caesar said, "better to be a hog of Herod's than his son."
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I have a doctorate in theology, and I am very aware of the difference. Today, atheists use the "Founding Fathers were Deists argument.". Deists at that time were very different than modern Deists, which today are closer to atheists.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Baloney! They were Christians.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Muslim Terror Islam - "And in their spare time they conquered north Africa, occupied Spain, tried to invade France, took Sicily, took Southern Italy, looted the Vatican, tried to take Vienna, murdered atheletes at the Olympics, blew up a disco in Bali, bombed a Spanish train station, bombed the London Underground, murdered Buddhists in Thailand, bombed nightclubs in Israel and took down the World Trade Center towers." Author Unknown "As long as the arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous and cruel." T.E. Lawrence "Their plan is to return the entire world - not just the Middle East - to the days of the caliphate and either convert all of us so-called infidels into born-again Islamic believers or kill us." David Hackworth "Europe is no longer Europe, it is Eurabia, a colony of Islam, where the Islamic invasion does not proceed only in a physical sense, but also in a mental and cultural sense.". Oriana Fallaci Have you ever lived in Muslim countries or communities? Curious. Their "religion" is not just a religion. These Imams and Mullahs (depending on flavor of Islam) are not the crazy Westboro Baptist church pastor who can be ignored. Islam is political; geopolitical; government; military; culture...It permeates the entire "life" of the person, family, community, government, diet etc. And this Islam calls for everyone in the world to submit to their way of life...Or die. You cannot "box in" Islam to the Friday mosque service and holidays...Islam is the very fabric of these societies. So you see just by being who we are, they being who they are, they are at perpetual war with us. Our hopes of changing them to something as we have will only work if Islam is replaced with another faith. Islam must be removed in order to free the Arabs, Persians et al. An American Officer
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Muslims only believe part of the Bible. The Qur'an is comprised of 114 revelations of Mohammed that are reported to be mostly spoken in pain from him twisting on the ground in convulsions. There is no prophet in scripture that received the word of God in this manner. The Muslim claims the Qur'an was written in Arabic, which they claim is the language of heaven on a stone tablet in heaven having no human author. However we find the Qur'an is not written in 100% Arabic but has some Hebrew, Persian and even Greek words. If Arabic is the language of heaven and the Qur'an was dictated perfectly why does the Qur'an contains foreign words that are Hebrew, Greek and Persian. This contradiction should be evident to all. If one were to ask where the original manuscript is there are no solid answers. The average Muslim will insist they know it is in their possession, but scholars know better. To not have the original and to not know where it is, not a tenable position to take. Especially when one states the Qur'an is a perfect book of revelation, correcting the Bible. How can Mohammed have had this done in all there languages? Are all three spoken in heaven?
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL There wasn't time for myths to develop prior to the writing of the Gospels. Furthermore, there were too many eyewitnesses still alive, and none came forth to refute the Gospel accounts.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
He was a wild radical alright! Doesn't seem like the type to drive a Chevy Volt, or favor bailouts.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
If that is true, how can you have non-Muslims living or even visiting Muslim nations?
Was Herod (pick any of them) a Jew? Remember, Jesus of Nazareth is caught up in this time period ... Jesus is not the object of discussion, however. It is about the Pharisees and Sadducees sharing a subordinate position with Herod/Rome.
Your pic (in a sense) clarifies the reasons for the Romans/Jews to murder Jesus as he did so during an important festival, called the Passover. He kicked BUTT against both Romans and Jews. Of course, Jesus' earlier Sermon on the Mount in Galilee, pissed off a lot of folks, too. He was a REBEL!
Herold was a half Jew.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Nope, Jesus was murdered because He claimed to be God.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
So, as a Jewish ruler (under Roman control) he built half a temple, 'eh?
Please show a specific citation where "Jesus the Nazarene" declared himself to be a GOD. The real issue, was Jesus was despised (being from Nazareth) as the Jewish Zealots in Galilee often resided there. As you know, Jesus was taken to Nazareth after being brought back from Egypt to avoid the wrath of Herod.
I want to come back to your perspective as it seems to not collaborate historical evidence. Here is Flavius Josephus in Antiquities of the Jews Book 18: Chapter 1.... 2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I a little touch upon them now. [note: the Zealots] 3. Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in any thing which they have introduced; and when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of man can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about Divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities give great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also. 4. But the doctrine of the Sadducees is this: That souls die with the bodies; nor do they regard the observation of any thing besides what the law enjoins them; for they think it an instance of virtue to dispute with those teachers of philosophy whom they frequent: but this doctrine is received but by a few, yet by those still of the greatest dignity. But they are able to do almost nothing of themselves; for when they become magistrates, as they are unwillingly and by force sometimes obliged to be, they addict themselves to the notions of the Pharisees, because the multitude would not otherwise bear them. 5. The doctrine of the Essens is this: That all things are best ascribed to God. They teach the immortality of souls, and esteem that the rewards of righteousness are to be earnestly striven for; and when they send what they have dedicated to God into the temple, they do not offer sacrifices (3) because they have more pure lustrations of their own; on which account they are excluded from the common court of the temple, but offer their sacrifices themselves; yet is their course of life better than that of other men; and they entirely addict themselves to husbandry. It also deserves our admiration, how much they exceed all other men that addict themselves to virtue, and this in righteousness; and indeed to such a degree, that as it hath never appeared among any other men, neither Greeks nor barbarians, no, not for a little time, so hath it endured a long while among them. This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all. There are about four thousand men that live in this way, and neither marry wives, nor are desirous to keep servants; as thinking the latter tempts men to be unjust, and the former gives the handle to domestic quarrels; but as they live by themselves, they minister one to another. They also appoint certain stewards to receive the incomes of their revenues, and of the fruits of the ground; such as are good men and priests, who are to get their corn and their food ready for them. They none of them differ from others of the Essens in their way of living, but do the most resemble those Dacae who are called Polistae (4) [dwellers in cities]. 6. But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author [the Zealots]. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy. Judas of Galilee (circa ~ 6 CE) lead a revolt against the Romans. 2000 Jews died and the rub was Jesus of Nazareth (and John the Baptist) were somehow involved with this Jewish Zealot group, hence: death to John and Jesus and the disciples, many of which were originally John the Baptist's disciples.
Founding Fathers Have you ever wondered what happened to those men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons in the Revolutionary Army, another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or the hardships of the Revolutionary War. What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners, men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. In the face of the advancing British Army, the Continental Congress fled from Philadelphia to Baltimore on December 12, 1776. It was an especially anxious time for John Hancock, the President, as his wife had just given birth to a baby girl. Due to the complications stemming from the trip to Baltimore, the child lived only a few months. William Ellery's signing at the risk of his fortune proved only too realistic. In December 1776, during three days of British occupation of Newport, Rhode Island, Ellery's house was burned, and all his property destroyed. Richard Stockton, a New Jersey State Supreme Court Justice, had rushed back to his estate near Princeton after signing the Declaration of Independence to find that his wife and children were living like refugees with friends. They had been betrayed by a Tory sympathizer who also revealed Stockton's own whereabouts. British troops pulled him from his bed one night, beat him and threw him in jail where he almost starved to death. When he was finally released, he went home to find his estate had been looted, his possessions burned, and his horses stolen. Judge Stockton had been so badly treated in prison that his health was ruined and he died before the war's end. His surviving family had to live the remainder of their lives off charity. Carter Braxton was a wealthy planter and trader. One by one his ships were captured by the British navy. He loaned a large sum of money to the American cause; it was never paid back. He was forced to sell his plantations and mortgage his other properties to pay his debts. Thomas McKean was so hounded by the British that he had to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Continental Congress without pay, and kept his family in hiding. Vandals or soldiers or both looted the properties of Clymer, Hall, Harrison, Hopkinson and Livingston. Seventeen lost everything they owned. Thomas Heyward, Jr., Edward Rutledge and Arthur Middleton, all of South Carolina, were captured by the British during the Charleston Campaign in 1780. They were kept in dungeons at the St. Augustine Prison until exchanged a year later. At the Battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr. noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the family home for his headquarters. Nelson urged General George Washington to open fire on his own home. This was done, and the home was destroyed. Nelson later died bankrupt. Francis Lewis also had his home and properties destroyed. The British jailed his wife for two months, and that and other hardships from the war so affected her health that she died only two years later. 'Honest John' Hart, a New Jersey farmer, was driven from his wife's bedside when she was near death. Their thirteen children fled for their lives. Hart's fields and his grist mill were laid waste. For over a year he eluded capture by hiding in nearby forests. He never knew where his bed would be the next night and often slept in caves. When he finally returned home, he found that his wife had died, his children disappeared, and his farm and stock were completely destroyed. Hart himself died in 1779 without ever seeing any of his family again. Such were the stories and sacrifices typical of those who risked everything to sign the Declaration of Independence. These men were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: 'For the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of the Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. Are we any less willing to sacrifice in the fight for freedom? OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL There wasn't time for myths to develop prior to the writing of the Gospels. Furthermore, there were too many eyewitnesses still alive, and none came forth to refute the Gospel accounts. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. You made this into a good thread Gary. Thanks for participating. I liked your point I read yesterday about deists not being the same as the people who claim they are today. Hope you stick around for other threads.
As several examples, here are several variations: the New King James Version, New Living Translation, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version and so forth. Coming in late to this thread. However, on subject below is a good summary I can across in MacDonald's Bible Commentary: English is blessed with many (perhaps too many!) translations. These fall into four general types: 1. Very literal The "New" (in 1871) Translation of J. N. Darby and the English Revised Version (1881) and its U.S. variant, the American Standard Version (1901) are extremely literal. 2. Complete Equivalence Versions that are quite literal and follow the Hebrew or Greek closely when English allows it, yet still permit a freer translation where good style and idiom demand it, include the KJV, and the RSV, the NASB, and the NKJV. 3.Dynamic Equivalence This type of translation is freer than the complete equivalence type, and sometimes resorts to paraphrase, a valid technique as long as the reader is made aware of it. The Moffatt Translation, NEB, NIV, and the Jerusalem Bible all fall into this category. 4. Paraphrase. A paraphrase seeks to transmit the text thought by thought, yet it often takes great liberties in adding material. Since it is far removed from the original text in wording there is always the danger of too much interpretation. The Living Bible, e.g.,(MacDonald) I am sure others will point out other English language versions and where they fit.
That's baloney as they were not all Christians, but they were definitely selling it to a Christian audience.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
So you do acknowledge that the America is/was a Christian nation by in large.
And, what did you think about the historical perspective from Flavius Josephus that was posted on #165? Isn't it remarckable that the founder of the Zealots was also from Galilee? That they formed for active and hostile assault against the Romans and often incited riotous rebellion amongst the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducee? Jesus of Nazareth was guilty of association with the Zealots. And he spoke of both the Pharisees and Sadducees with utter contempt.
Uh No..... only those literate in English, as most Indian tribes were not Christians and most African slaves were secretly practicing their own religions.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
I intended to come back to this comment at a later time. This is that time. Your comment is easily disputed. The Apostles traveled extensively around the Mediterranean Sea. In the process, they spread their respective ministries to different people. This took time for not only their influence to grow but also for folklore (second/third/fourth hand word of mouth) to catch up to those same caches of people. And the more time that went by, the fewer documents that were found as they were lost or destroyed, in fact Jesus of Nazareth was crucified circa ~35 CE but as the Zealots continued their onslaught against the Romans eventually the Sadducees and the Pharisees all merged against the Romans. The Romans in retaliation ravaged Judea/Galilee with the Jews losing, circa ~70 CE. So, there were 35 years of lost documents, growing folklore/hearsay, fierce battles and thousands of crucifixions, not even dealing with Jesus of Nazareth as his Apostles spread the word. This is a ripe opportunity for martyrdom. Judea was in turmoil. The early "Christians" were despised (and murdered) as the Zealots and increasingly the Jews were despised as much. Rome destroyed much of the data that has survived. It is a good thing that some remnants survived as in Alexandria, Egypt (Mark) through the Coptics or there may not be much to view at all. All, the early Christians wee outlawed and met secretly so as to not be persecuted. To summarize, you are not correct about your post. There was ample time for hearsay to fly all over the Mediterranean region, principally the Roman Empire and beyond as a revolution was in active process since Jesus' birth and beyond his death.
Thanks, red. Welcome to LF. You jumped right in and provided some ideas as a resource. Still what Bible do YOU read?
I want to come back to your post#105. As there are some ideas that I want to point out. For most practical purposes of discussion, the "Jewish Torah" is (in fact) the "Christian Old Testament." IT WAS ALL ORAL TRADITION FOR THE JEWS until after their exile into Babylon, circa ~400 BCE. At that point in time they decided to write (re-write) their ORAL Torah. Up until that time, it was all ORAL tradition. From that devastating experiences of disruption and exile to Babylon, upon arriving back to Jerusalem from Babylon, they incorporated large influences (to include the GREAT FLOOD) from the Sumerians/Assyrians and the Egyptians cultures; AND REWROTE THEIR OWN HISTORY. So, the historical records of Judaism is nothing more than a cultural assimilation of other oppressive societies coupled WITH their ORAL TORAH combined with their own collective experiences in social law. The Talmud, written after the Jews lost their rebellion, against the Romans circa ~70 CE, is an attempt to clarify the Torah. It was written sometime between circa ~200- 500 CE. This is after the New Testament by Jerome was written. The Tanakh, embodies the ORAL TORAH which is the canon or core of the Jewish Bible. It is said to be the written embodiment of the Torah (circa ~ 450 BCE) BUT WAS NOT FINISHED until sometime after circa ~70 CE. In a strange twist of bizarre documentation schemes for dating purposes, the Christian NEW TESTAMENT can be said to predate the OLD TESTAMENT or were roughly produced AT NEARLY THE SAME TIME.
The OT is revisionist history from Wolf Blitzer's spin room?
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Mostly the NKJV and NASB. I always have the KJV handy and used it for years. With APP tools now you can quickly jump from one version to another. My primary means for Bible Study and reading is the YouVersion Bible App. I also take a gander at LOGOS and have several Bibles and Bible commentaries loaded on Kindle. So no more lugging about a ruck sack full of Bibles and commentaries when I am on the move...I now use my Kindle and iPhone. The Kindle is great given you can read it on desktop and on an iPad or iPhone as well.
OK, when was the OT written? Don't take for granted Adam&Eve jotted down some notes on their fig leaves.
As stated earlier in this chapter, the canon is the list of books that are accepted as Holy Scripture. The Old Testament canon was fairly well fixed by the time of the New Testament (the first century A.D.). The last time the Hebrew canon was discussed seems to be the Council of Jamnia (or Yavneh) in A.D. 90. At this gathering the status of several books was discussed, including the Song of Songs and Ecclesiastes. These books had apparently been considered Scripture for some time, but various features about each of these works may have troubled some rabbis. Some discussion over a few books continued in Jewish tradition. It seems, though, that by the first century A.D. the 39 books of the Old Testament were well established as Holy Scripture and had been considered such for some time. Looks like around the 1st century AD before there was an agreed upon OT. About three hundred years before the NT, more or less.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
I agree, it is an expensive tool. What do you think of hondo68's post #1? He starts off the thread with an excellent comparison between two Bible versions and and analysis. Do you think that Paul's Romans 13:1-7 letter is about being subservient to government?
The Bible both of the Jews and the Christians does NOT date back to Abraham/Sarah, circa ~2000 BCE. Sometime, AFTER circa ~70 CE, it was formulated to the refine states of documentation we read today. And it is still being interpreted because of the lack of agreement on certain passages due to original Hebrew and Greek. I wonder what this means?
Oh, guess that was at the other site. ;) lol.. Anyway- I never said I have read 100 plus Bibles. I said I can read any Bible I want to read- and it all makes perfect sense to me. I can google any Bible I want to- and I do. For the record, the Bible that I took with me to church today is a New Revised Standard Version. I like to cross reference with other Bibles, at times, because I talk with people (mostly pastors) about lots of Old Testament theology. You seem to be fascinated with the idea that Jesus was a rebel. Yes- of course he was. Hey- at least we are getting somewhere- last year you told me Jesus didn't exist- and I told you he was a brilliant rebel, who I thought you would be interested in learning about! :) So YAY! We are making some progress.... awesome. As long as you are reading the word- I think we are doing pretty well, in progression here. If you are interested in the Jewish Jesus- I think that is brilliant. For me, Jesus makes a great deal more sense when we understand the Jewish Jesus. It is a great time of the year to make sense of that,in your studies. God bless you and best wishes.
How?
As I have explained many times before- by way of the Holy Spirit. I have given my life as a living sacrifice to the Lord, giving up addictions and sinful behavior (including a suicide attempt). I started by learning the character of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I follow the commandments- which is actually really easy to do. I have been baptized in Water and in the Spirit. All of these things came about by my faith. My faith started with a fear of the Lord. My fear of the Lord started with knowing that there was more to this world than what meets the eye. I am now at the point in my journey- after years of work- that I can write down a question and get an answer and a revelation within a few moments. I like to listen to the Bible, sometimes. Read from all different translations. I was listening in Exodus the other day- and I had a need to understand Moses and his motivation, and how Moses did not get frustrated with those people-and I was led, to great understanding- backed up with verses and connections to other parts of the Bible. I pray and ask to be shown things in Scripture. I like it to be sound theology, so that is what I ask for and that is what I get. And I am telling you- that YOU have the same ability I do. I am not standing here as a Bible student- but as a person who was so broken and busted up- that I could barely crawl to church at one point in my life- who has great blessings and deep understanding of the world- all from one simple thing.... trust in Jesus. You want all your questions answered? Ask Jesus yourself. Do not go to anyone else. Look up a sinners prayer- ask Jesus into your life- accept that He died for you- and then simply follow. Jesus was a rebel who can rock your world, better than anything else you are going to find under the sun. Want to know why he was a rebel? Because it is a broken , messed up world and he came to kick it's butt. :) So- it all makes perfect sense to me, because I have the right tool for the job.
You don't believe in a God as in a monotheistic concept. You believe in a "trinity of GODS" as in a polytheistic concept. Why?
I believe in one God- in three *forms of communication*. Everyone , who is honest, struggles with this concept and how to explain it. God is supernatural, so it is very difficult to put into words- but people try and of course no two explanations are the same. Let me try to explain this, from my POV: There is one God. Jesus is a human- who walked the Earth showing us God's ways. The Holy Spirit is the helper, that Jesus left for us when he departed. This is a very simple way of explaining of course. But they are ,three in one. Three separate purposes- one system. One God. I used to be fascinated with Greek mythology. That is more than one God. :)
I think YOU make God out to be more complex within your interpretation than even Hindu practices which at least have a Brahman over ALL other gods.
Oh for sure- God is very complex. He is so complex that we can not even understand Him completely. This I know, Jesus saves. What religion has a savior who saves, blesses and preforms miracles? Jesus saved me- and many people I know. What I am talking about- this faith I have , is not something I have to wait until I am off this Earth to enjoy. I get it now. Right this very second. you would not beleive the blessing I have gotten in one day. And this happens- day after day- month after month- year after year. There is no end to the blessings and peace I have now. THAT is what I would want for you. I have concrete miracles, blessings- signs and wonders. THAT, and I understand the Bible perfectly well. THAT is a miracle in and of itself. Ok- I have to get some things ready for the week- and then I am back to observing Lent.
I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I mainly use KJV, NKJV, or RSV, but of course all of these are translations -- it is best to refer to the original languages when people are able to do so.
Very very simplified. I was raised in the Catholic Church and I learned the Trinity defines God as three distinct persons. However, the are co-existent and co-equal in unity. You have 'the Father' who creates, 'the Son' who is "only begotten;" meaning he is of nature or basically Son of God in a very different sense from that in which men are said to be made by him children of God, and the 'Holy Spirit' which preceeds. While they are distinct from one another in the functions they preform as the unique individuals they are, they are one and the same in all else. That is how I was made to understand this concept to be.
Yes, she is.
What do you base that on shit apple?
And you are baiting because....? I just love how you show your spiritual side by rhetorically shaking your penis in my general direction. Hey, it's no problem to me if you aklways start out by giving away your power. ;-D It shows how black a religious nature you really have.
Can you answer the question shit apple?
Mike- I am in the process of observing Lent, and this coming weekend I am going to the mountains- so I may not be on for awhile, but I wanted to answer this to you. I beleive that you are a spiritual person. Most people into white magic are spiritual beings looking for something that makes sense to their spirit. It is my belief and understanding and experience that the Roman Catholic church does more to harm a person's spirit than it does to free that beautiful spirit. I try not to say negative things about people's religion, BUT- the Roman catholic church is a sore point for me. If you want to talk about that POV , at a latter date- I am glad to. But please- please - please understand this- Jesus loves women. He loves women so much that He showed himself to a woman, first- when He rose. God loves women. Your spirit is not out of the realm with what Jesus was talking about, and with what resonates with your heart. Just food for thought, so don't get upset. and I didn't want you to think I just cruised off- but this is an important and introspective time for me in my faith. I don't want to be online too much in the next few weeks- and miss something. Best wishes. :) And talk soon?
best wishes to you to, and by all means help talk some sense into my immature and anger oriented friend here fixated on shit covered apple if you would. If you could make him less arrogant and revengeful, we all would be grateful ;-D I'm sure you would agree, his sense of religion does no one any good at all.
Hey Mike. Go to HELL! You helped usher in Obama.
So shit apple how do you know there is a goddess? What do you base that on? An acid trip?
We will work with each other, we will work side by side, And they'll know we are Christians by our love, By our love, Anyone claiming to be an expert is selling something. I brandish my ignorance like a crucifix at vampires. Aaron Bady
In the sense of blindly following the evil intentions or actions of a government, the answer is no (e.g. abortion). In the sense of being law abiding, paying taxes etc. yes. That is why it is important to look at the ENTIRE revelation of the Bible for "what do we do" when government is clearly forcing evil on its citizenry. We know that Christians were persecuted and killed for being Christians under Rome. Rome would say "do not assemble" so the body of believers went underground. They did not form a revolution and fight Rome. When the emperor said bow down and worship me, Christians did not obey, they were executed. I think the best OT example we have is in Daniel. I am sure you know well the account of the faithful three Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego. They were "outed" for not bowing to the image of the king. This was their response from Daniel chapter 3: 14 Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying to them, "Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the gold image which I have set up? 15 Now if you are ready at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, and you fall down and worship the image which I have made, good! But if you do not worship, you shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace. And who is the god who will deliver you from my hands?" 16 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. 18 But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up."(NKJV) So to the point of bowing to an image of gold, going against what we know from the Word of God is wrong, we are not to obey. When it comes to tax time, yep give Caesar his due. The Blessings of being an American is our Constitution. Our Constitution points to our Declaration of Independence (which is the philosophical foundation of our nation), which points to the Reformation and the Reformation points to the Bible.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, do you not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, see, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every slave, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Firstly, that is total nonsense. John the Baptist and Jesus were 10 years old at most when Judas the Zealot lead his rebellion against Rome in 6 AD. Secondly, the Zealot cause of rebellion was in total conflict with Christ's non-violent and submission to ruling authorities (Rome) preaching. Sorry, but your theory is full of holes
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Please show a specific citation where "Jesus the Nazarene" declared himself to be a GOD. The real issue, was Jesus was despised (being from Nazareth) as the Jewish Zealots in Galilee often resided there. As you know, Jesus was taken to Nazareth after being brought back from Egypt to avoid the wrath of Herod. John 8:58, 59 I AM: Jesus was not just claiming to have lived before Abraham; He was claiming eternal existence. He was claiming to be God Himself (see Ex.3:14). This time the Jewish leaders understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, so they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (see Lev. 24:16). "I AM" (Gk. egM eimi) (6:35; 8:58; 10:7, 14; 15:1; 18:5) Strong’s #1473; 1510: This expression denotes “self-identity in self-sufficiency.” In one breath, Jesus asserted His eternal preexistence and His absolute deity. Abraham, as with all mortals, came into existence at one point in time. The Son of God, unlike all mortals, never has a beginning. He is eternal; and He is God. This is evident in Jesus’ use of the words “I AM” for Himself. This statement recalls the Septuagint (the Greek Old Testament) translation of Ex. 3:6, 14, in which God unveiled His identity as the “I AM WHO I AM.” Thus, Jesus was claiming to be the ever-existing, self-existent God. BTW, Herod The Great was dead when Joseph and Mary returned with Jesus from Egypt to Nazareth. He was still an infant.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
And, what did you think about the historical perspective from Flavius Josephus that was posted on #165? Isn't it remarckable that the founder of the Zealots was also from Galilee? That they formed for active and hostile assault against the Romans and often incited riotous rebellion amongst the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducee? Jesus of Nazareth was guilty of association with the Zealots. And he spoke of both the Pharisees and Sadducees with utter contempt. And John Brown was from Kansas, and i also deplore slavery, but our methods and beliefs are very different. You are barking up the wrong tree.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Sounds like you should be very afraid.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Why would you think childish and intemperate insults would bother me? You are the one looking shallow and immature here; not me. Mentioning drug use is no bother either, as I do no drug; not even alcohol, nor cigs either. You are very afraid of the first Amendment and the right for people to be a religion other than your own. You also do not believe in voting, or you wouldn't try to treat people voting for two opposing candidates as being in commission of a criminal act. You give away your power at every post you make, and all you do here is have me feeling sorry for you. I wish you luck in learning how to heal what ails you.
Prior to the time of Jesus the books that make up the O.T. Had been complete for many years. These books were on scrolls. Binding pages together as a codex began shortly after the end of the first century.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
The Muslim faith is NOT based on the ten commandments. Muslims claim their connection to Abraham by Ishmael, and the Jews do through Isaac. The latter is without a doubt the son of promise.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I understand as late as last year you were denying the existence of Jesus similiar to G A Wells" here is what a secular humanist had to say about that nonsense, and it will give you an idea go w far out y our ideas float. G.A.Wells - retired German teacher, amateur theologian and the hyper-skeptics' demigod. Wells is not very well known outside of the skeptical community. It is the curious nature of his ideas which draws attention. There have been Bible scholars who have denied Jesus said the things attributed to him. Few, however, have joined Wells in denying Jesus very existence. Randel Helms, speaking to an audience of secular humanists at a CODESH "Institute for Inquiry" on "A Secular Humanist Approach to the Gospels," said sarcastically, "I think that you can deal with Well's notion that Christianity could have started without a historical Jesus [as follows]: Sure Christianity could have started without a historical Jesus. And monkeys could fly out of my butt."
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Stick around, pal. I shall be addressing your last few posts directed towards me in rebuttal, perhaps as early as tonite. But, your remarck suggested (just above) came from another poster on this thread just over the past few days. And, you modified DBR's point. I don't doubt that Jesus lived and was murdered sometime in the first half of the first century this common era for speaking out against the established Jews and Romans; I don't question these facts. I doubt the authenticity of documentation that supports that he was the MESSIAH, the CHRIST and so forth. I can see we are going somewhere (now) with your rumour on this thread. We shall have a lot fun, too as one of the principal issues for me and perhaps MOST people is about the authenticity of documentation. Christianity (circa, ~35CE) spawned from Judaism (circa, ~2000BCE) and yet there is little authoritative documentation about the coming of the future MESSIAH, except as written after the Babylonian exile (circa, ~450CE) ... this is a significant issue for me. We shall see if you or anyone can help clarify this serious perspective.
This idea is diametrically opposed to what Joesph&Mary performed with baby Jesus, scurrying off/escaping the census of Rome for later tax collections. They immigrated to Egypt, home of Osiris, not any of the Jews such as back in Babylon. In fact, the family traveled to Nazareth (Galilee) not long afterwards as a result of Herod's death. Why do you suppose they escaped vital tax audits required by the government? And, more importantly why do you think they back to Galilee and went to Nazareth? So, you have opened two questions for me, now.
I have been in a Muslim country. You have to be very careful.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
If you didn't deny the existence of Jesus as DBR stated, then I apologize for that.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Not at all. Both Jesus and John the Baptist were somehow associated with the Zealots by the geographical area of the Zealots; there continuing conflict between the the Zealots and the Romans from Galilee. From my perspective: it was nothing more than a modern day ruling of class distinction in contemporary political terms to tame the perceived vigilantes by brute force of the ruling class. And I didn't say Jesus or John the Baptist were directly involved with the Zealots; I believe both were involved with the Essenes. In fact, your suggestion is not my point at all. I have data to support that some of Jesus' own disciples were associated with the Zealots and as I said before, Jesus and John the Baptist were guilty by association.
Your thesis was made and dismissed years ago. I'll even provide a book review. BTW, we have a fragment of Mark dated 41 to 50 AD. Jesus and the Zealots. By S. G. F. Brandon. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1967. xviii + 413 pp.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
"I AM" I am always impressed with single verses from the Bible that attempt to substantiate a point of view. Here is the REAL STUFF, backed by a youtube movie. Jesus was denied plausible merit BECAUSE of the RULING CLASSES (Pharisees&Sadducees) in Jerusalem. You should take this following movie (which is a reenactment of KJV John 8) into context before discussing a very deep subject concerning existence with the expression of "IAM." I should say, do you want to discuss a philosophical viewpoint?
$7.95. Paper, $2.95. Although the book was copyrighted in 1967, it was not published in the USA until November of 1968 and the paper edition came out in June of 1970. Brandon’s (Professor of Comparative Religion in the University of Manchester) basic thesis is that Jesus and the Jewish Christians were Zealot sympathizers in their nationalistic cause against Rome. However, the Gospel of Mark which he dates after A.D. 71 was an apologetic to convince the Roman Christians that Jesus was not involved with any anti-Roman activity by portraying Jesus as having suffered at the hands of the Jews for being a heretic rather than being crucified by the Romans as a rebel against Rome. The other Gospels also point out Christ as a pacifist who taught His disciples to love their enemies and to reject all armed violence. Unfortunately Brandon has started out with the importance of the Zealots and then tries to fit the Gospel records accordingly. However, his evidence is weak but he explains this by saying that one has to read between the lines of the Gospels’ apologetics. This is circular reasoning. Although one of Christ’s disciples was a Zealot, so was one a tax collector for the Romans and the fact that Jesus associated himself with tax collectors should not be considered too lightly. Brandon’s view that Paul was presenting a gospel to the Gentiles which was in conflict with and a compromise of the Jewish Christian version (e.g. pp. 168ff.) is untenable. Interestingly, Brandon really does not have much discussion of Acts 10–11 where the Jewish Christians introduce the gospel to the Gentiles. Although the book has detailed documentation, its basic thesis is open to many questions. This reviewer thinks that one will gain a distorted picture of the historical background to the life of Christ. H. W. Hoehner
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
I happened to see your post pop up while I am pursuing another post. But, what did Brandon claim within his knowledge-base about the Dead Sea Scrolls? He died in 1971 before much was released to the publick from authoritative analysis and opinion about the various modern day documents that reach back into circa ~200 BCE - 100 CE.
He Claimed to Be God Perhaps the strongest and clearest occasion of such a claim was at the Feast of Dedication when He said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). The neuter form of “one” rules out the meaning that He and the Father were one person. It means that they are in perfect unity in natures and actions, a fact that could only be true if He were as much Deity as the Father. The people who heard this claim understood it that way, for they immediately tried to stone Him for blasphemy because He made Himself out to be God (v. 33). How can anyone say that Jesus of Nazareth Himself never claimed to be God, but rather that His followers made the claim for Him? Most of the passages cited above are from Christ’s own words. Therefore, one must face the only options: either His claims were true or He was a liar. And these claims are for full and complete Deity— nothing missing or removed during His life on earth. 33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
Irrespective of ALL your knowledge and education and materials that may support your interpretation about Jesus of Nazareth's parables or metaphors, Jesus NEVER suggested that which you say. Quite simply stated, you don't understand Jesus' saying's at all.
"I AM" is God's name. No philosophical argument can change that.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
You really don't know what you are discussing, and so there is no point in any further discussion with you. Have a nice evening.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
And your singular retort is: No, I am finding you&others moving the standards of discussion for this thread from a Biblical/historical/interpretative analysis and context towards interesting and modern ideas that I haven't seen in a Bible. Let's pull the discussion back towards nothing other than circa ~200BCE to ~200 CE. Of course, modern ideas based on discovery of interpretive authoritative analysis is fully welcomed by me. I enjoyed your use of Brandon, as an example. Such a shame he died before he could see the Dead Sea Scrolls.
And we are ALL God, therefore. Jesus did not jeopardize the Roman Pagan GODS (such as Jupiter) at the time; he did NOT want a violent revolt. He was very passive, except when angered by conventions that go nowhere TO THE REALIZATION OF BEING ONE WITH GOD.
gary- Why are you here? Why are you gossiping about me? Because you are no more than a cyber stalker. You and everyone you email and gossip along with, and invited here to stalk others. It is really quite disgusting. I would warn buck that indeed, you do not know Jesus. Everything you say is bout your own sick ego. No one should listen to you about God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit. You can not point to fruit or blessings or anointment in your life. WHY in the world should anyone with a mind, hear YOU? Your behavior is sick and wrong- that says volumns about your faith. You do Satan's work all of the time, day after day- year after year. You stalk people who speak the goodnews. Jesus rebuke you.
Buck- you might be interested in some of the Gnostic gospels. I have read many of them, and Mary's gospels makes sense to me. They do not all make sense to me personally , but they are very earthy and 200BC. ;)http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm But seriously, you ask some very good questions. I am praying that you keep seeking, and keep looking. Again- I offer you that the most complex understanding will come to you in the form of answered prayer.
Mike- we are all works in progress. We all fall short, we all make mistakes. Anger IS a sin, indeed and something I have had to work VERY hard at handing over to Jesus. I have gotten very good at handing it over and being peaceful- BUT it was a long journey. The thing about Jesus, that is different than your goddess, and I think you will appreciate is that Jesus trains us up in the way we should go. He accepts us and loves us- but does correct us. A follower of Jesus will be a new person... and better... along with time. There is always hope, for a new day, for an honest follower. In this case I would pray that all posters on this site would treat each other with more kindness today- and that there would be no stalking, no harassment and no ill intent toward each other. God loves us all- but He can only offer hope to those of us who are willing to follow Him. On a side note- I understand your goddess. I am offering you that if you would take a very deep look at your goddess- you will find that she is a mirror image of the true Jesus. I offer that to you- not to upset you OR to hurt you, but to show you love. If you looked at the real Jesus, I beleive you would fall in love. :) Have a peaceful day. Be the change you want to see in the world. (We all have to do that) :) Best wishes.
I'm glad your religion give you as much as mine gives me. Thanks for sharing. ;-)
:)ok- ok... I am not going to give up on you. JUST FOR TODAY, I am going to have to stop posting- at just reminding you I don't have a religion. The difference between your religion and my faith in Jesus, is this for example: Yesterday, while in prayer and meditation- I have been shown an area of sin in my life- that is preventing me from getting to where I want to be. So I have to go and work that out and pray and surrender, and allow God to have sovereignty in my life. I consider myself a bond-servant/slave of Jesus. So- that relationship is the process of my personal peace. I beleive I am greatly rewarded for such faith. And it always leads to the most amazing blessings and peace. I know how to cast spells- and I could cast a spell and change things and people- OR I could take my correction, admitting that I need to come into correction, and allow myself to me more like the image of my Lord. That is the pursuit of a follower of Christ. I give those decisions and power to the Lord. I ask for what I want, if it is His will, He will give it to me. The Lord gives me everything I desire- that is good and right for me. AND He has the power to bless me, beyond my imaginings! THAT is a difference as well. In WICCA you are limited by your imagination. God's ways are so much more profound than what we can understand. He blesses us in ways we didn't think possible. The source of peace is different in your religion and in my faith, and someday I hope that you will see that there is a greater source, than your goddess. I hear you speaking from your spirit. :) I understand. Until I have the opportunity to post more at length- I hope you have a very good day. :)
I like you Betsy, but I have posted since 1995, and have no difficulty turning a pitch immediately into scroll by. You shouldn't waste your time giving one if I already said no thanks. I doubt Jesus even existed, frankly, which doesn't increase my interest in reading further about this possible person at this time. But thanks for sharing.
And, more importantly why do you think they back to Galilee and went to Nazareth? So, you have opened two questions for me, now. The first question is answered that they went to Bethlehem to register for the census: Luke chapter 2: 1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. 6 So it was, that while they were there, the days were completed for her to be delivered. 7 And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.(NKJV) Then after Mary's purification was complete IAW Mosaic Law, the family went to Jerusalem: 22 Now when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were completed, they brought Him to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord 23 (as it is written in the law of the Lord, "Every male who opens the womb shall be called holy to the Lord"), 24 and to offer a sacrifice according to what is said in the law of the Lord, "A pair of turtledoves or two young pigeons." 25 And behold, there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the Consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. (NKJV) Then we know of the visit of the wise men from the East. They inquired to Herod of the whereabouts of the King of the Jews. The account is in Matthew chapter 2: 1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him." 3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. 5 So they said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet: 6 'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, Are not the least among the rulers of Judah; For out of you shall come a Ruler Who will shepherd My people Israel.' " 7 Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. 8 And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also." 9 When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. 10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh. 12 Then, being divinely warned in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed for their own country another way. (NKJV) Then, 13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him." 14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son." 16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more." 19 But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt, 20 saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the young Child's life are dead." 21 Then he arose, took the young Child and His mother, and came into the land of Israel. 22 But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning over Judea instead of his father Herod, he was afraid to go there. And being warned by God in a dream, he turned aside into the region of Galilee. 23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, "He shall be called a Nazarene." (NKJV) In both the Luke and Matthew account Jesus goes back to Nazareth. I hope this answers your questions: 1. was the claim of tax evasion. Joseph took Mary with Child to Bethlehem to register for the census. The text does not tell us if he paid the tax up front or later, but gives no indication they avoided the tax. 2. Why did they go back to Galilee and went to Nazareth? Luke tells us Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, so it makes sense why they went back there. We also have to take into account that Matthew's audience was Jewish and Luke's Gentile. Anything further would be an opinion or speculation.
red- you have such an immature understanding. You really should be careful who you shame into the area of " opinion and speculation". buck's answers are in the book of Leviticus. There are very specific rules for atonement and sacrifice. There is a very, very good reason for the OT. Anyone who really understands the nature of God would send someone there as a starting point, to understand the movement of baby Jesus.
buck's answers are in the book of Leviticus. There are very specific rules for atonement and sacrifice. There is a very, very good reason for the OT. Anyone who really understands the nature of God would send someone there as a starting point, to understand the movement of baby Jesus. ("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
buck's answers are in the book of Leviticus. There are very specific rules for atonement and sacrifice. There is a very, very good reason for the OT. Anyone who really understands the nature of God would send someone there as a starting point, to understand the movement of baby Jesus. Hi diva, you obviously did not read buck's questions. He asked based on the NT Gospel accounts. So if you want to respond with a better answer, do so. I would love to see it. And on the issue of opinion and speculation, I made that statement given the Gospels do not offer a complete hour by hour history of Jesus Christ with regards to his birth and early years. So please either offer a rebuttal or response. Again I would love to hear it.
You should know-buck told me the same thing once... a long time ago. :) Ok then. Peace.
red- everything that happens in the Old Testament points to the New Testament- and vice versa. The gospel of Jesus is about the fulfillment of the OT. How can you separate the two? Want to understand the NT- Gospels? Look in the OT. It is all laid out there very simply and easy to find. It is obvious that you have not studied Leviticus, or you would be embarrassed that you can not speak to my point, other than trying to get me to show you. It would be so much rewarding, in your faith, if you were to think and study for yourself. Go and read Leviticus- and ask yourself- WHY would Mary and Joesph move baby Jesus in the NT? I can tell you, of course- but that is *yawn* boring- and to me it is so obvious that it hurts my brain to point it out. The point is that before you go mocking and shaming others, you may want to check your facts. Fact is- you don't know the character of God and can not speak to buck's questions.
I never have been a Christian. From my earliest age I felt frustrated and trapped when I had my parent or others try to use the minor leverage against me. I was estatic to be freed from the oppression of attempts to try to talk me into that faith. I would mention to that Stone showing demonstrably that someone who professes to be Christian can act like a prick and insufferable bastard also shows me it is just a faith meant to control people and manage societies; not a road to enlightenment. As for Buck, people often return if they were a faith, I never believed. At 57 when I am extremely satisfied with my faith; so don't hold your breath. ;-)
Rebellion is human nature. I completely understand, but Mike at the end of the day- it doesn't matter what anyone believes. It only matters what is the truth. You know the truth is that the world, and people, can not be easily explained in a neat sentence. We are all seeking some truth. I happen to have a unique POV, as I was in WICCA for a short time, and I wanted to shed some light for you. You won't find many Christians who will admit they were in WICCA, so I thought I would say, Hey. You say you don't want that- so ok. But now I have to respond to this: (which I don't mind- but don't get mad at me for doing so--ok?) Don't judge Jesus on the actions of me- or Stone- or anyone else, because we are not Jesus. I 100% agree with you that religion is meant as a way of controlling people ad societies. That is why I do not have a religion. You have a religion. I do not. I wish for you peace and freedom and joy. I am not trying to corner you in. I am trying to show you gate to breath taking freedom for your soul. Oh and I never- ever- ever-ever - ever give up hope on anyone! :)
What is the difference between belief and faith?
That is a very good question. For some people, there is no difference. In my experience, belief is something that I understand to be true, based upon what I have seen. I have belief in what has been proven to me. Faith is me trusting in something I do not see ,and can not prove. I can not prove God to you. I can share my faith in God, and explain to you why I believe in God's word.
Faith is me trusting in something I do not see ,and can not prove. So, you see an obvious difference between objective FACT and faith. Don't you have any objective facts to support your faith?
The gospel of Jesus is about the fulfillment of the OT. How can you separate the two? Want to understand the NT- Gospels? Look in the OT. It is all laid out there very simply and easy to find. It is obvious that you have not studied Leviticus, or you would be embarrassed that you can not speak to my point, other than trying to get me to show you. It would be so much rewarding, in your faith, if you were to think and study for yourself. Go and read Leviticus- and ask yourself- WHY would Mary and Joesph move baby Jesus in the NT? I can tell you, of course- but that is *yawn* boring- and to me it is so obvious that it hurts my brain to point it out. The point is that before you go mocking and shaming others, you may want to check your facts. Fact is- you don't know the character of God and can not speak to buck's questions. Hey diva. All those lines and not an answer. Leviticus has nothing to do with Buck's questions. Joseph went to Bethlehem with Mary for the reasons Dr. Luke gives us: 1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city. 4 Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem, because he was of the house and lineage of David, 5 to be registered with Mary, his betrothed wife, who was with child. (NKJV) It was a Roman decree and had nothing to do with Leviticus. So again, if you have something to share, please do so, but I know you won't. Perhaps you could offer us some insights into the gnostic texts you tout often. And who is 'shaming' and 'mocking' others. Buck asked a question, I respectfully answered the question and told him I would not speculate on anything that is not revealed in Scriptures.
It is a fact that my faith in Jesus is rewarded over a long, long period of time. It is that fact to you? No. Therefore is it objective? No, of course not. What is objective? What can you point to in the world is objective fact? What can be proved 100%? Nothing. You are led astray if you believe science is 100% accurate and trustworthy. You are taking your chances in anything you put your faith in. Man is not ever 100% correct. God is not about human fact, because facts are all manipulations anyway- God is supernatural. Fact is that there are many questions about the universe that can not be explained. Can I give you facts about that? No. I can share my faith and why I see it as fact in my world.
I am not sure what you suggest is true. Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, as one example?
sigh- red, your faith is so shallow. I could accept that from someone who doesn't profess to be the expert you claim to be. You think that Jesus had to flee because of the Romans? You think the Romans were in charge? There is so much rich and complex symbolism in the Bible- that will lead to great faith and conviction, if you would take some time and figure these things out. God has sovereignty, red. He always has- he always will. God came before the Romans. You do not even go and look? You do not even humble yourself enough to take a look? That is so sad. Leviticus 20:2-5 read that- and you may wonder- WHO is Molek. Look it up. Everything about Jesus was part of the plan. God is very clear about the plan. Go and read it in your favorite translation. The main idea is the same in each and every translation. God is large and in charge. Always. From the beginning to the end.
Explain your position from the Beginning of Time as recorded in Genesis to this day. It might be helpful to document your position within any of your Bible studies.
lol- pft.. that would be a huge undertaking, because I love this stuff, I could go on for days. I will write out a summary sometime soon. :) These are excellent questions and practice for me! I am getting offline for a bit. I love these interactions the last couple of days- and they have been great for my Lent observation- but I am done again. I will take a stab at it when I return. ciao!
oh and red- I figure this stuff out on my own, in prayer and meditation- and then I go and look around in Scriptures- and before I say anything here online, I have spent some time figuring things out... so I know what I am talking about, least anyone read me, looking for some answers. I never, ever answer off the cuff. You don't like it because I am a girl, and you are sexist- and I know far more than you do. You have spent time harassing me, and spitting at my understanding- and that is just shameful. Your understanding is not even elementary. That being said- I just went online to reconfirm something for my own understanding and I found this: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Vayikra/Yeshua/yes hua.html Even tho you have been hateful to me, I pray you will find deep comfort and healing in these ideas. I am not the only one who sees the obvious connections. You should really be careful of presenting yourself as an excerpt, when you ego is leading you by the mouth. I pray for your new understanding.
Without any context from which an informed view can be made.
So why is Judas a bad guy? Wasn't he part of the plan?
What relevance are the DSS to the subject of your questions? The DSS have confirmed the OT Scriptures. There were no new "revelations" or any contradictions.
I could accept that from someone who doesn't profess to be the expert you claim to be. You think that Jesus had to flee because of the Romans? You think the Romans were in charge? There is so much rich and complex symbolism in the Bible- that will lead to great faith and conviction, if you would take some time and figure these things out. God has sovereignty, red. He always has- he always will. God came before the Romans. You do not even go and look? You do not even humble yourself enough to take a look? That is so sad. Leviticus 20:2-5 read that- and you may wonder- WHO is Molek. Look it up. Diva I am truly concerned about you. I never claimed to be an expert. I offered a response to a poster and you either did not understand his questions or are totally confused. Because you are so out in left field, you should read the original post and then retract the nonsense you posted above. First I NEVER claimed Jesus was fleeing the Romans (Mary was carrying Jesus so that would make no sense). I stated what is in the Gospel of Luke, that Mary and Joseph went to register, a Roman ordered registration, and that is why they departed from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Not my words, but the words recorded in the Gospel of Luke. Second, the Romans were the earthly political power, the empire of the times. That too is in the Gospels and the remainder of the NT especially Acts. That is clear and plain. No one is claiming Rome had rule over God. That is your machination not mine. So either address the questions head on or don't respond. "Leviticus 20:2-5 read that- and you may wonder- WHO is Molek. Look it up." 2 "Again, you shall say to the children of Israel: 'Whoever of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who gives any of his descendants to Molech, he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. 3 I will set My face against that man, and will cut him off from his people, because he has given some of his descendants to Molech, to defile My sanctuary and profane My holy name. 4 And if the people of the land should in any way hide their eyes from the man, when he gives some of his descendants to Molech, and they do not kill him, 5 then I will set My face against that man and against his family; and I will cut him off from his people, and all who prostitute themselves with him to commit harlotry with Molech.(NKJV) Diva Leviticus 20:2-5 has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of Joseph and Mary going to Bethlehem. Molech has nothing to do with the Roman census, nor does it have anything to do with the flight to Egypt. Molech is a Amorite pagan god. Again absolutely no relevance.
Here is a good link that explains our need for a Savior: http://www.campuscrusade.com/fourlawsflash.htm This version gets the point across in cartoon fashion:
I never, ever answer off the cuff. You don't like it because I am a girl, and you are sexist- and I know far more than you do. You have spent time harassing me, and spitting at my understanding- and that is just shameful. Your understanding is not even elementary. That being said- I just went online to reconfirm something for my own understanding and I found this: http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Parashah/Summaries/Vayikra/Yeshua/yes hua.html Even tho you have been hateful to me, I pray you will find deep comfort and healing in these ideas. I am not the only one who sees the obvious connections. You should really be careful of presenting yourself as an excerpt, when you ego is leading you by the mouth. I pray for your new understanding. Diva you are the only one posting here claiming to be an expert. And those sexist comments are unfounded and false. If you are going to play ball (debate on a forum) then you need to suit up and take the hits. What you present here and on LP is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ and many posters seeking Him need to know that. You advocate "meditating" on gnostic texts that both Jesus and His Apostles warned us about in the NT. You have also claimed fellowship with the Cathar gnostic views. You will not admit that God's Words recorded in the Bible are authoritative. You peddle Smorgasbord-Christianity and Syncretism. If you truly want to convince folks about Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, perhaps you should offer them His recorded Words in the Bible.
also claimed fellowship with the Cathar gnostic views I regard her as a wiccan with a bible, posting satanic rantings. She once told me that I'm not a Christian, she couldn't be more wrong.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Faith and Believe are close but differ "The distinctive feature of faith, in contrast with mere belief, is the element in it of will to action. Belief is an act of the intellect, and faith has been described as “an act of the intellect commanded by the will.” But faith is more than an act of the intellect, and the will does more than command. Faith is not merely the assent that something is true, it is our readiness to act on what we believe true. Faith is will lured by value into action. Faith is decision (1955, p. 74). See Samuel Thompson’s, A Modern Philosophy of Religion, 1955, p. 44 for this kind of reasoning. The clearest example of both elements of faith in the same context is Hebrews 11. Verse 6 says, “he that cometh to God must believe that he is...” (emp. added). Beginning with verse 7, the writer observed that a number of notable Old Testament characters trusted in that about which they believed. They acted on their belief. Note the words indicating action—e.g., “prepared” (vs. 7) and “obeyed” (vs. 8).
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
So after all of this, here's my question: I'm thinking of becoming a Christian. Which one of these bibles are correct? My immortal soul hangs in the balance, so I gotta be sure!!
Tag line: I wuz HACKED, cuz I SAY so! (Boris Y) "I'd vote for obama" (Mad Dog, Paul voter) IF RonniePAULIE runs as a repukelican't, (OR even as a demonRAT), against the messiah "king" obammy; I'd vote FOR him.
ping-a roonie.
Tag line: I wuz HACKED, cuz I SAY so! (Boris Y) "I'd vote for obama" (Mad Dog, Paul voter) IF RonniePAULIE runs as a repukelican't, (OR even as a demonRAT), against the messiah "king" obammy; I'd vote FOR him.
"The distinctive feature of faith, in contrast with mere belief, is the element in it of will to action. Belief is an act of the intellect, and faith has been described as “an act of the intellect commanded by the will.” But faith is more than an act of the intellect, and the will does more than command. Faith is not merely the assent that something is true, it is our readiness to act on what we believe true. Faith is will lured by value into action. Faith is decision (1955, p. 74). See Samuel Thompson’s, A Modern Philosophy of Religion, 1955, p. 44 for this kind of reasoning. The clearest example of both elements of faith in the same context is Hebrews 11. Verse 6 says, “he that cometh to God must believe that he is...” (emp. added). Beginning with verse 7, the writer observed that a number of notable Old Testament characters trusted in that about which they believed. They acted on their belief. Note the words indicating action—e.g., “prepared” (vs. 7) and “obeyed” (vs. 8). Buck, you asked the wrong person that question. Proof is subjective, but evidence is objective. The Christian faith is built on Historical evidence which is objective. You have to decide if the evidence rises to the level of proof.
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
IMO Judas was part of the story but not part of the plan. Judas tried to stop the plan, but he couldn't. No one can.
A Man on His Harley was riding along a California beach when suddenly the sky clouded above his head and, in a booming voice, God said, 'because you have tried to be faithful to me in all ways, I will grant you one wish. The biker pulled over and said, 'Build a bridge to Hawaii so I can ride over anytime I want. God replied, Your request is materialistic; think of the enormous challenges for that kind of undertaking; the supports required reaching the bottom of the Pacific and the concrete and steel it would take! I can do it, but it is hard for me to justify your desire for worldly things. Take a little more time and think of something that could possibly help man kind. The biker thought about it for a long time. Finally, he said, 'God, I wish that I, and all men, could understand women; I want to know how she feels inside, what she's thinking when she gives me the silent treatment, why she cries, what she means when she says nothing's wrong, why she snaps and complains when I try to help, and how I can make a woman truly happy. God replied: 'You want two lanes or four lanes on that bridge...?"
"The trouble with our liberal friends are not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."
That is an excellent question. To really understand Judas- you have to learn the character of Judas. I actually prayed about this exact topic a few weeks ago. I was lead to scripture about Judas. What I discovered was that Judas was a flawed man. Judas was greedy, and had idols. Judas also thought that Jesus was going to overthrow the Romans- and was not interested in love and peace. So Judas is the perfect topic for bucks questions about the overthrow of the Roman government. Judas was not a bad man. Judas left doors open to be tempted by evil, and so Satan walked through the door- and tempted him and ended up stealing his soul. That is the very reason we need a savior in the first place. So yes- Judas was part of the plan. Yes- he was part of the plan. The Lord gives us free will to betray him or follow him. We have that choice every single day- 100 times a day. He does not cast spells on us to take our free will. Satan does that. That is what witchcraft is all about. That is why witchcraft is sinful. Judas shows us why sin separates us from the love of the Father. Judas didn't disrupt the plan at all, you will notice. Jesus told his disciples that he was going to die at the hands of men. Isiah had already foretold, and the other prophets had already foretold of the slain lamb that would take the sins of the world away. The only thing Judas did was betray love. He is the only one who suffered. Judas saw the same signs and wonders, and love of Judas- as he walked around with Jesus- and he chose to look away and follow his earthy heart and lust for money. That is how powerful sin is in our lives- and how deceitful sin is. In my mind Judas isn't a bad guy. He is a broken guy, a lost guy and a lesson for us. A person who lacked faith and understanding. I pray for Judas and anyone else like him- and wish for better for them. Want an interesting POV about Judas? Think about Judas being a keyhole/peephole. Look up the meaning of the name- Judas. He was a view - to life without faith. (Death) God has a perfect plan. We are told to follow Jesus- and not think up the plan for ourselves. In a brilliant twist- it is Judas- who teaches us that. The Bible is full of fascinating brilliant twists like that. It is very entertaining. :) I hope that answers your questions.
Actually he was.
Could you please show me where I said you were not a Christian? Thanks. I was in WICCA for a little bit. Your sin is just as great in the world, so be careful. AND remember the good news is that Jesus came for the sinful- not for the righteous. Guess what that means? Jesus came for me. Before you start casting aspersions on other people- hondo- let's remind people that the great David of the Bible committed all sorts of sin in the Bible including murder of an innocent man to steal his wife- and his sin was great- and God says about David, that DAVID is the only man of the Bible who is a man after God's own heart. Not many reading this will have committed sin as great as David. Where does that leave the average sinner? In God's love and acceptance. Jesus does not look at the sin- he loves the sinner. Praise God.
I would love to sit here and discuss this with you- but I honestly have to run. Suffice it to say that I personally can not condemn Judas, I have not been given the authority to do that. When I look at the fact that Judas not only fulfilled the Prophey of the potter's field, when he turned the money into the church- but that he had such remorse and shame for his actions, that he killed himself- then I really can not condemn him as a bad person. I have more compassion for him, having made numerous mistakes- and even denied Christ myself, in my life. I can't judge Judas- since I, too am imperfect have done some pretty bad stuff, as I have already admitted. Why God saved me and blesses me constantly- is about God's grace. I hope Judas found God's grace. It is the same thing I pray for all of us.
Hehe- this is an excellent lesson for this thread- and for why it is important to have an open mind, to know the character of God- and not get addicted to one translation. I said- molek- also rendered as Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, or Moloc Semitic root meaning "king". You should be embarrassed, but you so much need to soothe your ego, and you refuse to learn.
This is where gary is an expert at killing the gospel of Jesus Christ. He insists that everyone has to come to the gate of God's paradise- by accepting his "facts". Only his "facts" do not exist and he exhausts and confuses people. Just as Satan had hoped for. Buck- faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God. gary likes to place heavy burdens and yokes on people, so that they are in bondage and can not possibly find God. That is a heart issue and people who call themselves Christians do it all of the time, and give us all a bad name. God can not be proved by any human alive- God can only be proved to you, by God. But he isn't going to force himself on you. You have to invite him into your heart. THAT is all faith amounts to. It starts with accepting Jesus died for our sins and asking Him into our lives to reveal His truth to us- and it is just as simple as that. ANYONE can do it. Anyone. No matter what they have done in their past or what they understand. People who are brain damaged can have faith- there is nothing to understand or prove. :) You can chase your tail for years trying to figure out what gary is talking about- and wondering where his fruit and blessings are- OR you could simply go sit down and have a talk with God. It is your birthright to go directly to the source with these questions. You have been given the right- and you are worthy of having fellowship with Jesus. I say- go do that- and don't listen to anyone. Best wishes.
Howdy Hondo, good to see you posting on this thread.
I said- molek- also rendered as Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, or Moloc Semitic root meaning "king". You should be embarrassed, but you so much need to soothe your ego, and you refuse to learn. First, you should realize you are teaching no one here. You are just adding to confusion. And again you miss the point. The account of the census has nothing to do with Molech and in Leviticus 20, The Lord is clearly telling Israel about the cult of Molech and idolitry. So since you threw out the "root meaning" of a word "king" what does it have to do with the Roman census? If you don't respond I will assume you think there is a linkage between the Birth of Christ and Molech. And I would just add that to the list of strange doctrine you peddle here.
I learn such great stuff at these sites! Growing and learning. Praise God. Apparently I am just a natural born student of something called hermeneutics. :) I think it is just too far over your head, red. Don't worry your little self over it from now on. Ok? But Praise God that I have finally figured out why you and gary and your buddies are so shallow and dry and boring and produce no fruit and receive no blessings or answered prayers. You don't see the excitement and glory of God in the fullest. It has baffled me beyond measure- but I see it now. It has shocked me and surprised me that your understanding of the Bible is so elementary. NOW I get it.. I figured it out from reading this: http://tcpiii.tripod.com/levit1.htm See I love all scripture. All of it. Leviticus, for example is beautiful and rich to me- and I learn so much from it, that brings me to great blessings. I bet you have never even read it- OR if you have, you simple don't understand what you are reading. That is why you have to try to discredit me. Because you are not able to understand. I keep saying it, and it is true, when we know the character and intent of God, these Scriptures make so much sense and fill us with hope and the ability to find deep blessings. God is so good and so faithful.
it is not possible that you are a Christ follower. :) I think we have been thru that before on this forum. Christ followers don't get so uncomfortable, as you do, when someone is talking about the gospels. diva betsy ross posted on 2011-08-26 libertysflame.com/cgi-bin...?ArtNum=23519&Disp=63#C63 Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God. Diva this has to be the most revealing post from you. Here are your words: "faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away." DBR Really? Fact hundreds of people witnessed the Risen Christ: 1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.(NKJV) How is that for a fact? Your words again: "No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God." DBR I don't know what "god" you are seeking, but the Bible IS God's Written Word, His Truth. So if you disregard the Bible, you are preaching a different gospel than delivered by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. So no facts, no Bible=spiritism
I think it is just too far over your head, red. Don't worry your little self over it from now on. Ok? Hermeneutics??!! What would you like to know about the literal, plain interpretation of Scriptures? So what is your Christology and soteriology? I went to the link provided. Absolutely no relevance to the discussion points. The same sermon was given at VBS when I was 12. Good to study but no relevance to the Roman decree.
Uh- I never said you were not a Christian. You don't seem to understand what I said there. Also- evil spin? You should read the Bible. I pray you do. I wonder what your hatred and constant stalking to start arguments with me- says about your understanding of a "house divided". Hint- that came about when Jesus, himself, was accused of being evil. I pray you find that seek and find that deep understanding.
red- chatting with you gives me excellent experience speaking to someone in a lower IQ range. I find it frustrating, but I know I have to learn how you people problem solve, so thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate your time and feedback.
oh and red- so because I stopped posting at LP on this topic- you decided to stalk me over here and start it all over again? Seriously? You need me that much? lol... you are a cyber stalker. It is sort of funny, but it is actually quite deranged. You and gary both want me so much that you can stand to let me alone on a different site? Worried I was going to talk to buck too much? Hope you don't break out in a fist fight over me. lol.....
I find it frustrating, but I know I have to learn how you people problem solve, so thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate your time and feedback. LOL!! Perhaps you could enlighten this caveman on how you can find Truth about God without reading and studying His revelation to man---The Bible. And remember the Gospel was clear to fishermen.
I'm not up to speed on this thread. Where did she say that?
Yeah, everyone is stalking you to learn what the perfect "christian" is like. /s
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Might I mention diva, I did not interdict your conversation. You decided to invite yourself to the Buckaroo conversation.
I just started looking at this thread again. I don't know every comment. But how do you know if Gary and redge produce any fruit or receive blessings or have their prayers answered?
Post #268: Diva: "No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God."
Stone- this discussion , between the three of us started over a year ago at LP. I left them to have their fun over at LP, and showed up here to talk to buck- and they followed. AND I know that they don't have any answered prayer because, do you ever hear them ever talking about their personal testimony? They think I am a witch, because I have answered prayer. What does that tell you? That is what alerted gary to start calling me a witch, when a poster at LP was asking me about my faith, and I was responding to them about why I beleive my faith has led me to answered prayer. Do you ever hear them talk about how God moves in their lives? How I know is this has been going on for over a year- and I have never heard them say a word about anything the Lord has done for them.. only what theology they have learned. Fruit? Do you see the fruit of spirit in them? Go back and look at the posts between us over the last year at LP. They showed up here to continue what I left behind over there. Go look for yourself. That's how.
I never said I was a perfect Christian, that is your insecurity talking. In fact I say the opposite- but self loathing is more comfortable to many people, so they get angry when someone tries to free people, who are addicted to that yuckiness. If you could try to pay attention, my message is that everyone is entitled and worthy to calling upon Jesus. I encourage people, no matter their sin- to seek God. I even pray that people receive the same exact blessings I have gotten. But ,anger and bitterness is a comfortable friend for many people. And I think it could be y'all just like to argue and that is why you stalk people around. But it is a great lesson for me on how a certain group of people react when anyone starts talking about the gospel of Jesus. You will notice people get very stirred up. That is perfectly how Satan wants it. People start acting all out of their ego. Just like back in the day. Even "Christians" start staling and ganging up on people. It is fascinating to see it unfold.
lol-you make my point. Did the fishermen study the Bible? In the Scriptures there are people who did not read the Bible, who sought God and were blessed. Cutting and pasting a post, from LP, out of context is all you have red? And then you use to make my own point back to me?? lol.. falls down laughing. You are hilarious. On the topic of theology. One does not need to be an expert on the Bible, to seek God. Altho I love the Bible and I am the one in fact, who actually reads it (because up thread you admit you have not even read the Old Testament).... It is not something that is necessary in seeking God. A prostitute and a tax collector will get into Heaven before a religious man. SO says the Lord. Matthew 21:31 Don't be mad a me- I didn't write it.
The old Testament was read by them. Someone can get saved by hearing the word of God without a Bible. But if you want to grow you will need to read the Bible and apply it to your life. So maybe you are both right to a degree.
You created an excellent dialog/understanding in post #232 but strangely concluded: In post #245 I indicated some confusion and asked: And then you state, in post#252: The relevence is exceptionally important to me. Especially, from two different sources, 1) Flavius Josephus and 2) the Dead Sea Scrolls because there seems to be immense, colorboating documented data about the Essenes which reflects upon John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth in the way they taught prophesies and lived a strict code of ascetic Judaism. You go onto state in post#252: That is NOT true as the the DSS shows how the Essenes lived in Qumran (desert and farmland or rural communities) and in the various populated cities (urban communities) prior to Jesus of Nazareth and upto the destruction of Jerusalem, circa ~70 CE . Where did you come by that data?
That is a pretty cool graphic for quick synthesis, although it simplifies issues for me. But your following point intrigues me: by NOT ringing any bells. The Jews do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah; if any group would have accepted him FIRST, it should have been these folks from Palestine, Galilee and Judea and Babylon (etc). Why do you suppose the JEWS largely discredit Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah? And don't discuss "Jews for Jesus!" that group is not representative of the Pharisees.
"The distinctive feature of faith, in contrast with mere belief, is the element in it of will to action. Belief is an act of the intellect, and faith has been described as “an act of the intellect commanded by the will.” But faith is more than an act of the intellect, and the will does more than command. Faith is not merely the assent that something is true, it is our readiness to act on what we believe true. Faith is will lured by value into action. Faith is decision (1955, p. 74). See Samuel Thompson’s, A Modern Philosophy of Religion, 1955, p. 44 for this kind of reasoning. The clearest example of both elements of faith in the same context is Hebrews 11. Verse 6 says, “he that cometh to God must believe that he is...” (emp. added). Beginning with verse 7, the writer observed that a number of notable Old Testament characters trusted in that about which they believed. They acted on their belief. Note the words indicating action—e.g., “prepared” (vs. 7) and “obeyed” (vs. 8). To me, that is a fine line of differentiation upon a simple question that was asked: So, it is an interesting remarck and requires testability. As an example: What holds the Jews together? Rhetorically, it is the Jewish "covenant with God or as they say, YHVH, YHWH and others." What is the Jewish covenant that creates this almost universal idea: "the Jews are the Chosen People"? More rhetoric is assured here: their bloodline from generation to generation for the nation of Israel. But Jews don't necessarily believe in a supreme creator (call the creator any noun you choose) or for that matter, most if not some 98% of all Jews reject jesus of Nazareth. So, please provide some empirical data to reflect on that which you state. Thanks in advance.
Cutting and pasting a post, from LP, out of context is all you have red? And then you use to make my own point back to me?? I did not cut and paste a post from LP. Pay attention that was a different poster. No, the fishermen did not read the NT...the WROTE it under God's divine inspiration. They did know the OT pretty well.
Anything further [based on a Bible] would be an opinion or speculation. In post #245 I indicated some confusion and asked: I am not sure what you suggest is true. Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, as one example? And then you state, in post#252: What relevance are the DSS to the subject of your questions? The relevence is exceptionally important to me. Especially, from two different sources, 1) Flavius Josephus and 2) the Dead Sea Scrolls because there seems to be immense, colorboating documented data about the Essenes which reflects upon John the Baptist and Jesus of Nazareth in the way they taught prophesies and lived a strict code of ascetic Judaism. You go onto state in post#252: There were no new "revelations" or any contradictions in [the DSS with respect to the OT]. That is NOT true as the the DSS shows how the Essenes lived in Qumran (desert and farmland or rural communities) and in the various populated cities (urban communities) prior to Jesus of Nazareth and upto the destruction of Jerusalem, circa ~70 CE . Where did you come by that data? Thanks for responding Buckeroo. The ending in 232 was an indication there is a lot of speculation about the years of Jesus not recorded in the Gospels. I stick to the Bible. You make a connection to John the Baptist and Jesus Christ and the Essenes. That connection is speculation. The DSS don't tell us John the Baptist or Jesus Christ were affiliated with the Essenes. There is nothing indicated in the Bible to come to that conclusion. What I meant by revelation is God's revelation to man through the OT and NT, the Bible. So please elaborate on the DSS connection you see. Thanks Thanks
.. explains our need for a Savior by NOT ringing any bells. The Jews do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah; if any group would have accepted him FIRST, it should have been these folks from Palestine, Galilee and Judea and Babylon (etc). Why do you suppose the JEWS largely discredit Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah? And don't discuss "Jews for Jesus!" that group is not representative of the Pharisees. Excellent questions and some of the best I have heard in quite some time. If you will excuse me for a few hours, I will offer you some feedback/answers. Gotta get some Z's, these 18-20 hour days are a hoot this week. Been wrapped up in a simulation exercise.
Please perform your personal and professional duties before responding to mere posts upon the Internet within a chit-chat channel. I also have been working around the clock and don't find much time to be posting, hence my oft delays for response. Your replies are more than welcome, here on LF and certainly by a number of other posters. And, I encourage you to consider serious questions/investigations into the Christian Bible and add as you have capability. Thanks in advance.
I understand, now, and fully agree. I have heard wild speculation that Jesus of Nazareth went to Tibet, India, Britain, blah, blah blah. I see NO supporting documentation that substantiates FACTS other than misunderstood interpretations of his name. Without any evidence, I don't read or care much about the speculation, either. Still, there is a myth that I used to misunderstand. You shall not find my opinion worth much, but I want to give "the ol' college try" in brief form. It is well known that Jesus wore a beard and very long hair and wore a white cloth as a garment to cover his body. I used to think, "no-one knows this sort of stuff as an absolute fact." Yet, this is exactly how the Essenes lived! The Pharisees and Sadducees did not live this way at all. It is an important connection from a historical point of view outside the Bible within the context of relatively new collaborative understanding about the life and time of Jesus of Nazareth. I am fascinated with these historical details. It is a convincing data point (at least to me) that is far from "faith" and so forth. Frankly, I am studying the material at such a phenomenal rate that my wife has suggested that I am becoming "weird."
This isn't a mere chit chat channel. This is Libertysflame.com. ;)
Are you sure Jesus had long hair? Remember Jhoffa_. He showed me something about that years ago.
actually stone, the word itself tells us that the disciples did not know about the prophecies, and were uneducated. Acts 4:13 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus The only POV I ever give is that God is gracious and shows mercy to those who call upon him. gary disagrees with me that 1) people do not find God after hearing people's testimony- so no one should give their testimony. 2) only highly educated theologians and ordained ministers should be allowed to speak, and God only saves certain people. I disagree. Both the historical evidence and the word of God say otherwise. It is quite clear to anyone who takes the time to look. In the meantime, it is absolutely true that God will save someone who has no understanding of the Bible, and I am living proof. I have a better understanding of the word than gary and red put together- and it was gifted to me because of my faith. I only understood the Bible after I was baptized. That makes gary angry- because he went to school to try and understand, what was given to me as a free gift. My story is to encourage others to ask questions and seek, and have faith that they can be blessed - just like me. One does not need to understand the Bible to be gifted and to be blessed. Faith comes before every good thing in the Bible. That is in the word and there is proof that Jesus is not giving us a Bible quiz. For personal growth, and deeper understanding and more complex gifts- we do need to study our Bible. I love the Bible. I study it every day- sometimes all day long. To be saved- it is in the word, just call on the name of the Lord. Romans 10:13- Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is in all the translations, btw. I believe that is true. :)
That is true. You have to pray and accept Christ. Also God doesn't hear all prayers. That is in the Bible too.
Being saved- and receiving blessings are two different things. A person can be saved by the grace of God - and blessed, with answered prayer, according to their faith. God won't answer the prayers of people who have not shown faith in him, but he does answer all prayers made by those who are faithful. Ezekiel 7:22 >> New International Version (©1984) I will turn my face away from them, and they will desecrate my treasured place; robbers will enter it and desecrate it. The word says that God will only turn away from people who have shown no faith! Ah hah! Once we call upon the Lord, and are saved- we are His child- his lamb, and he will not turn away from us, even IF we are imperfect and sin. Once we are redeemed, we are His. God can not turn away from anyone He has saved, because the word says that he is constant-never changing-compassionate and full of grace and mercy for His children. That is the goodnews. Sometimes the answer, to our requests, is not what we want to hear and some people say that is a prayer unanswered- but that is not true, every prayer-by the faithful- will be answered. And yes true, God does not hear the prayers of the unfaithful and God gifts according to our faith, and not our good works. Want more gifts? Show more faith. :) Romans 12:6 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; I also try to encourage people that showing more faith is something that they CAN do. They can establish more faith- and receive more blessings- and healing and all the good stuff. I say it is easy- and one does not need to be a student of the Bible to show faith and get blessed. I want to encourage everyone- where they are- today- to get more blessings. That is not so popular. :)
It is hard to tell you two apart, since you work in a tag team. But anyway, you may believe that the fishermen knew the OT and were theology students, however that is not true. The word tells us that they were uneducated. You really need to read the Bible red, and stop taking gary's word for it. He has led you astray. The 12 disciples represent all different walks of life. The word says that they did NOT know of the prophecies... meaning they were not educated in theology- because THAT was the entire theology at the time. The OT is the word of God from the prophets- THAT a savior was on His way. John 12:16 >> New International Version (©1984) At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him. New Living Translation (©2007) His disciples didn't understand at the time that this was a fulfillment of prophecy. But after Jesus entered into his glory, they remembered what had happened and realized that these things had been written about him So- there is what you say- and what the word says.
Here is Matt 5:22 in the KJV: Matthew 5:22 (KJV) "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." Here is how the NIV puts it. 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister[b][c] will be subject to judgment. Jesus got angry, is and is subject to judgement according to the NIV. That is the way it appears to me. So if I am correct how many other errors are in the NIV?
Jesus taught them the scriptures from the Old Testament.
I disagree. Both the historical evidence and the word of God say otherwise. It is quite clear to anyone who takes the time to look. Diva, your statements regarding me are blatantly false. I have always stated the Christian faith is based on the historical evidence of the Christ of the Bible. I believe it is the duty of "every" Christian to give an account of how they came to a saving faith in Christ. The focus of a Christian's testimony is Jesus Christ, NOT ME. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!
OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND.
gary- when you address me in the future, understand that you are addressing an ordained minister. Okay? Now- you started this all with your attacks and gossip and stalking when I was giving a personal testimony, to a poster last year- and you have continued to attack personal testimony. The Bible is clear about where faith comes from. You can believe that people ONLY come to faith by the historical evidence. That may be for some people- but that is NOT for all people- and nothing you can say will prove otherwise. You beleive there is one way- and you know the one way and nothing you say comes from faith or understanding. It comes from what you have been told, by another human being. That is idolatry. That is a sin. And you know it. You chase people away- who come to faith by hearing, and that is so demonic. You use your status to cause people to doubt their faith by hearing, and that is why you are a useful tool for Satan. Not everyone HAS to be into theology. That is many times, a call from God- because He has gifted wisdom. Reading the Bible and teaching the Bible are not the same thing. The only ONE WAY- is Jesus, and everyone born is entitled seek after Him and expect to be addressed by God himself. You do not have the one way. In fact- you do not represent the word of God. You represent the word of gary ,and that is where we are always divided. You call me a witch and evil and get others to rally to your cause- because I don't bow to you. That is called ego. No one has to bow to any of us- they are only to bow to God. You point the way to you, with your personal narrow understanding. That is not how God works. We are gifted according to faith. YOU are the one who makes it about YOU YOU YOU. You have been gifted according to your faith. You need to step it up if you find yourself being jealous. And do not shut the doors to others, because you, yourself- do not want to surrender. Romans 10:17 >> New International Version (©1984) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. New Living Translation (©2007) So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ You are very clearly wrong- and you should not put a heavy yoke on people, that their faith in Jesus MUST come from embracing historical evidence. The historical evidence is not 100% conclusive. I like data, history, logic and I did not come to my faith by any of that. Don't mislead people. Nothing is 100%. If the historical evidence speaks to someone- great. If not- that is ok too.
.. explains our need for a Savior by NOT ringing any bells. The Jews do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah; if any group would have accepted him FIRST, it should have been these folks from Palestine, Galilee and Judea and Babylon (etc). Why do you suppose the JEWS largely discredit Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah? And don't discuss "Jews for Jesus!" that group is not representative of the Pharisees. I am assuming there are two questions above. One is why we need a Savior and the other was why did the Jews reject Jesus Christ. If I am in error of defining your questions please let me know. I will start with the Israelite rejection of Jesus Christ. In the OT Isaiah reports the following in Chapter 53: www.biblestudytools.co m/nkjv/isaiah/53.html Here are some other OT references predicting that the Messiah would be rejected by His own people: "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Isaiah 53:3) "Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth ..." (Isaiah 49:7) "I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting." (Isaiah 50:6) "Thou hast known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine adversaries are all before thee. Reproach hath broken my heart: and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none." (Psalm 69:19,20) Now for the Jews of Jesus' time, it is clear they were looking for a political/military leader to throw the Romans out of Israel and set up an eternal Kingdom. Jesus in the Gospels offered the Kingdom of God (in Matthew called the Kingdom of Heaven) to His people Israel. However, the Kingdom of God presented by Jesus Christ was on His terms, His Will. The Jews, especially the religious leaders, rejected the Kingdom presented by Christ. So in summary, the Jews wanted an earthly King who would defeat Rome and the Herod's. Also, when the Jewish religious leaders saw how the miracles and sermons of Jesus were turning hearts to God, they became jealous and wanted Him dead. Finally, I should note that the early Christian church was predominately Jewish. The second point "explains our need for a Savior." You probably have read Romans several times, but may I suggest reading chapters 1-10 again with your question in mind? Here is a good link to the book of Romans: www.biblestudytools.com/nkjv/ romans/ Below are key points from Romans Chapter 3: 9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Someone can get saved by hearing the word of God without a Bible. But if you want to grow you will need to read the Bible and apply it to your life. So maybe you are both right to a degree. Your statement is true. My point was the message of Salvation is IN the Bible, but diva seems to miss that point I was making.
Diva words cannot describe how much I restrain myself from responding to your barbs and insults. However, I do read and study the Bible every day with diligent expository. Most of the disciples were practicing Jews, went to Synagogue and heard the Word read to them each Sabbath. That is how they recognized Christ when they heard His Words.
New Living Translation (©2007) His disciples didn't understand at the time that this was a fulfillment of prophecy. But after Jesus entered into his glory, they remembered what had happened and realized that these things had been written about him So- there is what you say- and what the word says. Diva I am sure since you are an ordained minister you know that you used a dynamic equivalent version (NIV) and a Free translation (paraphrase) version (NLT) to make your point. You should have started with either a literal translation like the KJV, NKJV or NASB and then go to the other translations.
lol. So passive agressive. Let's remember the truth about how you got here, to this site. You dish out far more offensive statements then you receive. Anyway- Where in the word does it tell you that the disciples were practicing Jews and what their daily/weekly habits were? I showed you where in the word it says the opposite of what you are "peddling". Go to the word. Show me. Don't tell me what your opinion is of what gary says, or what you have read by an idol of yours- or how you feel about what you have read. Tell me where it is in the word, what you claim.
Where in these verses does it state the disciples were not adhering to the Mosaic Law or never heard or read the OT? All that is stated here is that the disciples did not connect the Triumphal Entry with Zechariah 9:9: 9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey. (NKJV) The verse you provided makes no claim that the disciples were apostate Jews untrained on Scriptures. They would be apostate Jews if they did not adhere to Mosaic Law before Jesus' ministry. Let's put your line of logic to the test. The Bible does not tell us whether or not the disciples were all circumcised at birth. Does that mean they were not circumcised? So, the Bible does not tell us the disciples read the OT Scriptures, are we to assume it never happened. Your point is pure speculation and unfounded.
The word tells us that they were uneducated. You really need to read the Bible red, and stop taking gary's word for it. He has led you astray. If you would read carefully the passage you quoted, then you would see they do not say the disciples were uneducated, rather they did not understand the prophecies until after Jesus Christ entered glory. The Jews accused Jesus of being uneducated and never having studied. "The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” John 7:15 He was a Rabbi, and you don't get that title without having been trained. Jesus spoke and wrote at least 2 or 3 languages. His accusers were wrong. In Acts 4:13 the Jews saw John and Peter as uneducated, but John and Peter both wrote several books in the NT in Greek.
How do you reconcile the apparent differences of text within the two versions that hondo68 posted in #1 of this thread? Don't the two versions read differently? I go to the Greek and Hebrew texts, and I check the various manuscripts if there is a problem with the texts.
gary- when you address me in the future, understand that you are addressing an ordained minister. Okay? Now- you started this all with your attacks and gossip and stalking when I was giving a personal testimony, to a poster last year- and you have continued to attack personal testimony. Diva, I likewise have restrained myself from responding to you. I have been on LF for many years, and I did not follow you here. You initiated the attacks on LF, with your post #83 to Buckaroo. Likewise, you initiated attacks against me on LP, when I was witnessing to MrSpock. I never stated Christians are saved by historical evidence, rather the Christian faith is based on historical evidence. I have always maintained we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and His shed blood.
Gary any suggestions for learning Greek and Hebrew for the layman?
Forget the Hebrew, but for your iPhone pick up the little koine Greek program, which will help memorizing the words. There is also a wonderful little Greek Hebrew Bible, which is also an inter linear. My Greek is rusty, and I'm using both programs.
gary you are not a well person at all, for numerous reasons. Lying is a big problem for you. I pray for you.
But, 50 days after Passover when Jesus was crucified. 3,000 were added to the church in one day. Acts 2:41 A few days later the number of believers totaled 5,000 men, not counting women and children.Acts 4:4. The early church was almost entirely Jewish. The Gospel didn't even go to the Gentiles until approximately two years later. "Now, it has sometimes been suggested that Jesus, himself, or maybe even John the Baptist, were members of this group. And that can't be proven at all.". http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/portrait/essenes.html I have been to Qumran, and can tell you the community would have been very small. I would be shocked if 100 lived there, and if the truth were known it was likely less than 50...at most.
I am not interested in arguing with you. Your doctrines are heretical, clearly Gnostic, and not worth discussing.
You are not interested in arguing- you are interested in trying to make me stop talking about my POV. Typical religious man. That is why, in the Bible, Jesus rebukes the religious men. Of course my beliefs are heresy to you gary and your religion. I am proudly open minded and interested in learning the true ways of Jesus. Jesus himself is a heretic - to you and your way. I have seen healing miracles in people's lives- so I know what I know. I have my proof that faith in Jesus produces all the promises of the Bible- in my own life and in other people. You have no proof of anything. I have seen fruit in the people in every denomination, in the people who truly follow Jesus the Christ and hear him as their Shephard. Your close minded religion doesn't interest me and it didn't interest Jesus, because it proudces no joy in the world- it heals no one- and the people who practice your religion show no fruit, or tangible blessings in your lives. Jesus saves and religion kills. You and I do not know the same God. You can have yours. And you are not interested in discussing things, that is true. You are interesting in death, and dominance, lying and attacking other people's peace. Darkness does that to it's followers. I am praying for you. You have totally missed the mark of what Jesus was teaching. It is so sad.
+1
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Yet- y'all can not stop following me around and reading and commenting about what I say. Strange, that. :) I am the only one who ever discusses the Bible. Irony is so ironic that YOU- who doesn't understand the Bible- calls ME a heretic. Then again- The revolution in religion says that Jesus is a heretic. Jesus was a rebel against the religious- NOT the government. (There is that old delicious irony again, eh?) I am in excellent company. Praise God. "You will keep on hearing, but you will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive." (Matthew 13:10,11,13,14)
ME a heretic Get thee behind me satan. You might as well quit stalking me, I'm not converting to your cult.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
You are a very odd person. You keep following me around for a reason. Try to learn something ok: Since I am the one who is always talking about how much I love Jesus and the Bible- it is illogical that I would have anything to do with Satan. Jesus himself was accused of being a demon, by the religious people, and he talked about a house divided. Go and read Matthew 3:25 ish.. ok? It would be very helpful to you, no doubt, if you would actually read the Bible and try to understand it. You would not have these irrational beliefs, if you did. God be with you.. and if hearing about my ideas is so upsetting to you-you might want to stop following around and reading everything I post. Praying for you, hondo. Blessed be the name of the Lord, Jesus.
Not saying you aren't. But that isn't an accurate statement. Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven
Actually, you would have to go deeper into: Mark 9:39 But Jesus said, “Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me I do believe it is true that not all people who pray out asking for God's help will enter Heaven. Asking for a blessing from God is not surrender or inviting God into our lives. The people who obey God and do His will, have a relationship and go to Heaven.
If one says there was no Trinity prior to the Incarnation, then they are denying Jesus is God, and therefore a heretic. Christ is God, hence eternal.
Eternal means without beginning and without end.
Someone can have a couple of dozen bibles and read them frequently, but if they don't accept the divinity of Christ, I have a tough time taking them seriously as a Christian. Anyway, enough of he witch hunts for me, we know who they are.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Then again, gary you will stalk and harass people who say no such thing- and hang that accusation around their neck- because they refuse to worship YOU. You want things specifically and perfectly defined in the same exact words you, yourself, use.. or you call that person a witch and a heretic. But your ideas are wrong and it is obvious to anyone who knows the character of God- so you leave no choice for people. That is exactly what happened to me, with you. How many others have you lied about? You are a very wicked person with your accusations and lies. You speak death and evilness. I pray for the people you have harmed and abused. So , so sad. Jesus is the Lord, God.. not you gary. In the book of Genesis it says that the Trinity existed at the foundation. You have zero authority to define anything.
Yes- however, when a minster is attempting to explain the trinity to a non- believer, and that minister explains that Jesus is God in a human body- and was born from a human- THAT is NOT someone who MUST be an evil witch. THAT is not denying that Jesus was God, and it is not even close to the insanity you have shown in your repeated attempts to discredit my POV. You are a sick, sick man- gary. Very sick. God have mercy on you, because you are so far from Christ like. How many people have you abused because they did not speak your insane language? I know you abused your aunt- for forming her own ideas about the Holy Spirit... how many children have you hurt and turned away from God? I bet plenty. Your ideas are not only wrong and not Biblical- you are a stalker. You have no sense of boundaries.
“One who refuses truth cannot be refuted or healed with truth or its prophet, reason. There is in him no sense of obligation, even to truth, and therefore no obligation to anything.” --Peter Kreeft
Excellent quote. This from Francis Schaeffer: "It is an important principle to remember, in the contemporary interest in communication and in language study, that the biblical presentation is that though we do not have exhaustive truth, we have from the Bible what I term true truth. In this way we know true truth about God, true truth about man, and something truly about nature. Thus on the basis of the Scriptures, while we do not have exhaustive knowledge, we have true and unified knowledge." (Francis A. Schaeffer, Escape From Reason, Ch. 2)
red- Are you and gary gay lovers? That would explain many unanswered questions, like why you rush in to defend him when he gets his backside handed to him for being evil.
Colossians 2:8 (King James Version) Colossians 2:8 King James Version (KJV) 8Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ A professor of philosophy? PFT.. gary you have so many human idols it is hard to keep up with you. People who love worldy knowledge and men, over God and the Bible, do not know the character of God or the Bible. The word is very clear about worldly knowledge. You seem to be addicted to the world of what men think. Weird - that.
In the ancient Hebrew words that are used to described distance and direction are also used to describe time. The Hebrew word for east is qedem and literally means “the direction of the rising sun” Your definitions are wrong and out of syncs with the character of God. Not in the Bible, it doesn't mean without beginning and without end. You make grave errors when you try to define God and His creations- with your worldly male idols. You worship males, gary. Your ego has you led by the nose. Jeremiah 32:40 >> New International Version (©1984) I will make an everlasting covenant with them: I will never stop doing good to them, and I will inspire them to fear me, so that they will never turn away from me. God says , I WILL make. That means it is new to them- and has not always been so. What a twisted and sick man you are. You are hardly an expert on the word of God. You don't even understand the word eternal.
40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
:) Yes. Praise God. Stone- God makes good on all His promises. That is the good news. He does not turn away from us. And the good news is that God really does want everyone to see how to enter through HIS gate. Not man's gate- but God's gate, into paradise.
How is his definition of eternity wrong? Post 329. How is that out of character with God. It simply means he always was and always will be. Is there something I'm missing. If so I don't see it.
gary is trying to re-introuduce the point that last year, in a discussion on Libertypost with a non-believer- in defining the Trinity to another poster, I explained Jesus (in the trinity) as God in a human form , born from a human. I said the concept of Jesus was alway there, but his human body was born of a human body, and was a gift for us- to show us God. gary says I am a witch and evil, because Jesus is everlasting and has always been. I said show me where Jesus was walking around on the Earth in that body in the OT. gary says I am an evil witch. So now he is bringing the old discussion from LP, last year, back up here. He followed me around LP for a year- calling me names and saying I was born of Hell.. and now he is here to do the same thing- with his friend, red the lap dog. So out out of the blue - he posts something that seems out of place- but I know what he is referring to- and there is my answer, He says in the Bible the word eternal/everlasting means without beginning or end. That is not what that passage says- is it? Why would God make new covenants that are eternal/everlasting... if they have always been? When God makes a covenant with you, and nay believer- and it will be an eternal promise. Does that mean the covenant has always been, and is without beginning? No. The character of God is that He is our loving Father in Heaven. He creates things for us- for our own good. gary's idea is that there is one *man made* way to get to God- to hear God - and one way God does it- and HE (gary) holds the keys to all understanding of God. Except gary doesn't. God wants a relationship - and that may look different in other people- and we are told NOT to judge and that we will not understand God's ways. If you beleive gary's definition- then you are just a number bub- and there is no need for surrender, there is no need for relationship. There is no need for personal revelation. God would not answer personal prayer- because everything would have already been decided and written in stone about who you are and your life. Jut follow behind and do what you are told , by man. Oh and give man all authority to your power too. It is a pretty convent definition for a man who refuses to acknowledge the Holy Spirit and the idea of total surrender and dependence upon God, the Father. But in the word of God, God makes eternal covenants with people, based upon their faith. If it always has been- then what is the need for faith? gary says we don't have to show faith. which is convenient for someone who wants all authority under Heaven, for himself- and doesn't want to go out of his comfy box and show faith. (Someone might laugh). So there you go. :) As with anything in the Word- it depends on who you use as your guide. gary says use gary I say use God.
Here is acopy of Diva's post on LP contained in the response I made to her. Diva, your reputation is well known across the Internet for being combative, playing the victim, and having an accusative spirit. Using Jesus Christ for entertainment purposes is wrong, however, I have no intention of partaking in your games. I am going to provide a copy of a post you made denying the eternity of Jesus Christ, which is the spirit of anti-christ. In case anyone doesn't understand everyone with the spirit of anti- christ is opposed to Christ. I do not intend to post to you again. The post follows: "#1520. To: MrSpock (#1516) To answer to your answer two-there was no trinity before the birth of Jesus. Book of Hebrews. There was prophecy of the Trinity. Prophecy of Jesus. There was God and Heaven. Jesus, the son, completes and shows us the Trinity. Jesus was a new covenant. A new agreement. He was a new way. He told us to forget religion and all of the blood sacrifices and odd ceremonies, and all of the things that people did, like removing their shoes on a specific day- as a way of getting to God- and just start being with him. That is why Jesus didn't like religion- because it keeps people FROM God and from Heaven. And God wants all of us- not a few of us. He is head over heels about his people. He told us to have a personal relationship with him and forget dos and don't - and cans and can't. The 10 commandments are his laws, yes and they are all ways to show that we love each other.. that and Obey him- and what he wants us to obey is simple: Love others as I have loved you. That's it! It is all about love. Not fear, not sacrifice, not rules, OR even memorizing Scripture. No ceremony or membership needed. People, before Jesus was born, had no way of getting to the Father, themselves, and getting into Heaven. They were imperfect sinners then too- and according to the plan at the time, which was just "be perfect"- no one had God in their lives. They had fear and darkness. SO- Jesus laid down his life- to pay the sin debt of the world- once and for all the final sacrificial lamb. He shed his blood so that everyone who heard the story would understand, NO MORE BLOOD is needed. It is done- he said- and then he committed his spirit to the Father.That is why we do not have to be perfect today- to know Jesus. He is the way and the truth and the light. The Father is our Father, (who is Jesus), The Son- born to flesh is Jesus (who is God) and the Holy Spirit (Is God-Jesus)who dies and rose again after three days, like he promised- and is alive. The trinity is one person in three experiences. Heaven, Earth, and Spirit.
gary says I am a witch and evil, because Jesus is everlasting and has always been. I said show me where Jesus was walking around on the Earth in that body in the OT. gary says I am an evil witch. So now he is bringing the old discussion from LP, last year, back up here. He followed me around LP for a year- calling me names and saying I was born of Hell.. and now he is here to do the same thing- with his friend, red the lap dog. So out out of the blue - he posts something that seems out of place- but I know what he is referring to- and there is my answer, I never said you are a witch or evil. I reported you had previously stated on LF you had previously been into witchcraft. I said your doctrines are evil. He says in the Bible the word eternal/everlasting means without beginning or end. Eternal means without beginning or end. I used the term in referring to God. That is not what that passage says- is it? Why would God make new covenants that are eternal/everlasting... if they have always been? When God makes a covenant with you, and nay believer- and it will be an eternal promise. Does that mean the covenant has always been, and is without beginning? No. The character of God is that He is our loving Father in Heaven. He creates things for us- for our own good. God's covenant with man was in His mind before the foundation of the world. In His mind it is eternal, but from man's perspective everlasting. gary's idea is that there is one *man made* way to get to God- to hear God - and one way God does it- and HE (gary) holds the keys to all understanding of God. There is only one way to eternal life, and that is through Jesus Christ, by grace through faith in His shed blood. Except gary doesn't. God wants a relationship - and that may look different in other people- and we are told NOT to judge and that we will not understand God's ways. I judge a person's doctrine, NOT their heart. And yes, I certainly believe in having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. If you beleive gary's definition- then you are just a number bub- and there is no need for surrender, there is no need for relationship. There is no need for personal revelation. God would not answer personal prayer- because everything would have already been decided and written in stone about who you are and your life. Jut follow behind and do what you are told , by man. Oh and give man all authority to your power too. It is a pretty convent definition for a man who refuses to acknowledge the Holy Spirit and the idea of total surrender and dependence upon God, the Father. I certainly believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As I have stated to divia several times Revelation is closed. Christians receive illumination or enlightenment from the Holy Spirit, but not new revelations.. She likes to subject the Word of God to her revelations. But in the word of God, God makes eternal covenants with people, based upon their faith. If it always has been- then what is the need for faith? gary says we don't have to show faith. which is convenient for someone who wants all authority under Heaven, for himself- and doesn't want to go out of his comfy box and show faith. (Someone might laugh). So there you go. :) As with anything in the Word- it depends on who you use as your guide. gary says use gary I say use God. That is a lie from beginning to end. I have always insisted on faith in Jesus Christ as the only way. I do believe in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers. That said, I do not witness to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit always witnesses to Christ, NOT HIMSELF.
You are a cyber stalker gary. Please, God, do not allow other posters to think gary represents Jesus. OY! Jesus is the new covenant. New. As in new. Of course you will have to read the Book of Hebrews, and see if from the POV of someone who understand God's character. :) Praying for you gary.
Here is another revelation that was given to me- Praise God and thank you Holy Spirit- Jesus is an answer to a prayer from David. David was a sinful man- who showed incredible obedience to the God- and foresaw Jesus, and walked in faith every day of his life- AND even made many greivious errors- and yet- David is protected by the eternal covenant that God made with David. But the covenant was based on the faith David walked in daily. Like when he killed the Giant. Anyway- your teachings do not allow for the power of prayer, faith or the Holy Spirit and that is why what you teach, gary is wrong and dry and sends people away from Jesus. Jesus always existed- but it took a prayer from the beloved child of God, David- to put the human form of Jesus into action. Psalm 51 The Holy Spirit is a powerful force in the world. You blaspheme the Holy Spirit all of the time, and so it is no wonder you just don't get it. In the word it says the only unforgivable sin is blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Mark 3:29 You have so much to learn,gary. God be with you.
I hardly ever watch TV. I am watching this show starring Sister someone. I was led to watch it, and here I sit learning about Saint Catherine of Sienna- whose story is almost exactly mine. Here is a Catholic Nun- talking about the Holy Spirit, saying the EXACT same things I have posted about the Holy Spirit. I can't shake off how very sick and depraved you are- but I forgive you gary. You are as lost and broken as anyone else. I just pray that you have not damaged too many people. I fear that you have had contact with children- and I pray that if that is the case, they will forget any interactions with you. I pray that the hearts of the faithful that have been open to you, are filled with the Holy Spirit and with comfort.
We certainly are to judge. We just aren't to judge as hypocrites. You are judging Gary an awful lot. And I would say not the right way. That is my opinion.
Children of God are told to have discernment and we are told to judge what is right, actually. gary travels these sites as a minister- and harasses people who don't agree with him. I was responding to him cutting and pasting my posts from LP- from last year- which he has obviously indexed and stored away. Who does that? Cyber stalkers do that. He posted my comments from here- over there. He needs to be judged. He is very sick and uses the internet to harass people, not just me. I have been dealing with it for over a year now. He is not only wrong, but he shames people for sharing their testimony in an effort to shut them up. He followed me to this thread, in an attempt to try to shame me. gary needs to be judged. He calls me an evil witch , and that my ideas are born in Hell, all of the time. he gossips by email to get others to help me harass me. Trust me, gary is no saint. John 7:24 Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” 1 Cor 2:15 (KJV) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things Luke 12:57 (NIV) "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 1 Thes 5:21 (Phi) "By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good. I am judging him exactly the right way. I have been nice about this stuff for over a year and prayed for him hundreds of times.
Stalkers? I always get amused when people who participate in forums say that. He is just interested in the Bible. So he debates it on the internet. That isn't stalking.
This is the first mention of Gary on this thread. You mentioned him. Post 83 For example, gary and I do not have faith in the same things at all. His brand of christian and mine are not the same. I look at gary's behavior and I do not see Jesus. THAT is all I need to know. I don't think the source of his religion and my faith is the same, as a matter of fact.
What evil and vile comments diva. I posted that vid because it has a catchy tune. Your posts are sounding more like the biker bar posters on LP. Read you post again and tell me if you see the Love of Christ.
PFT- you just aren't thinking. You are going to encourage people to bring their personal vendettas from other sites over here and get other posters to come over and bully people? Ok- it's your site- whatevah. Good luck with that.
:) that is because there is more going on than you see or are trying to understand. Obviously.
Stone, please see post #336. I think this is a violation of your posting rules. I would also consider it a defamation of character.
Ding..Ding..Ding..give the sista a cigar! That's right rev. mutha, it is his site, libertysflame is not your personal pulpit..
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
lol- is it yours? You have been trying to run me off since before I started posting. Would you prefer if this site was you and stone- and no one else? Hey that's cool. Just tell other posters what the deal is, because Stone invited me here- and then sent me a note and invited to start posting again, after being gone for a long time. Is this your site, laine? Do you have the final say on posters and what they post? If you are - fine- cool... just be up front about it. What are the rules around here? Who is in charge? If carrying vendettas around from all over the web is the game here- just say it. I never post to you- and you are hot and bothered over every single thing I post. What is up with that? Who are you? When did I pick you up?
So you would prefer that everyone is passive aggressive and posts little youtube videos? Sorry, I can't play that way. That is for little girls, not me. Red- you fall a little more, from a position of grace, with every post. I have spent time wondering what God is teaching me, about the amount of time I have prayed over you- your sick child and your family- and how you are a backstabbing, nasty person. And why? Why all this harassment from you? What it comes down to is, because I believe in the power of the Holy Spirit and that upsets gary. And you are very attached to gary. You were all over me at LP- and You came here to get into it with me- and now you cry to the mod because I said something that touched your fragile ego? HOW would what I posted be a violation of anything? Why do you believe you have special privileges? Well, what I am going to take away from it is that we are not supposed to hold grudges- and we are to forgive and love each other. So- fine. :) I was right all along. Your behavior is far from Godly. Praying for you red. God be with you. And if you are a homosexual with gary- I pray God will remedy that situation for the good of His kingdom and according to His will for your lives.
Hey diva making false accusations IS slander. I am a married man with children and now by slandering me, you drag my family into this exchange. I will make the necessary arrangements to address your slander towards me.
Just going to be honest. You slandering Gary and Redge says more about you then them.
There is a definition of slander you know. :) It seems to me that they may be gay lovers, since red follows gary's directions and gets very upset at anyone who disagrees with gary. What would you call it? I am just being honest about what I have seen over a year's long period of thread stalking. Just sayin'. Is that allowed around here? Drawing conclusions from what I see in their behavior.
Drawing a conclusion based on your behavior is not malicious. I really have come to the conclusion that you and gary are gay lovers, based on your behavior. I had a feeling you would be threatening legal action. Please go right ahead and contact the authorities, red. Find out what they think of that post of mine and how it is slanderous- but remember they will have to look over all the posts you have made to me. That should be interesting, no? You followed me here for a reason- and now you want to cry? You have said much more outrageous things about me, and you follow me around from site to site. Call a lawyer. Go ahead. Noting else you do is Godly. Why not?
Diva, I won't. I forgive you.
No one enters suit justly; no one goes to law honestly; they rely on empty pleas, they speak lies, they conceive mischief and give birth to iniquity :) That is the smart thing to say, since as you prolly found out, a lawyer would laugh at you. Slander has a definition. The law is there not for someone who insults your ego on a message board. Also bear in mind what the bible says about calling the faithful into needless arguments with the law. Not a wise thing to do. I hope you have learned a lesson. Godly people do not threaten lawsuits, esp over something so very childish. The Bible is an excellent guide for us to use in all matters. It is true. I pray you will seek the word of God today for better understanding. Hopefully this will be your last post to me- for real this time.
Also bear in mind what the bible says about calling the faithful into needless arguments with the law. Not a wise thing to do. I hope you have learned a lesson. Godly people do not threaten lawsuits, esp over something so very childish. The Bible is an excellent guide for us to use in all matters. It is true. I pray you will seek the word of God today for better understanding. Hopefully this will be your last post to me- for real this time. Diva, forgiving you for the slander you put forth, is not capitulating to your theology. The post above does not show grace. I forgive you even though you exhibited no sorrow or remorse. Perhaps you should examine that. I have never personally attacked you. I have debated your doctrine. You on the other hand when faced with doctrinal debate chose to make it personal by defaming character. I never did that to you. If you choose not to defend your theological or doctrinal stance, then say so. So please exit gracefully, I forgive you for falsely calling me a sexual deviant. I forgive you for insulting my family. You are forgiven, so please exit gracefully. I highly recommend you put me on bozo.
You attacked him first: But you knew that.
Oh God red- you are a very sick man. I have no sorrow, for what I said, because I do believe that you and gary are gay lovers and you have followed me here to avenge your lover, who disagrees with me- you are correct, I am not sorry for having discernment. Your behavior, over the past year, has led me to beleive that. I am sorry that you do not understand the character of God, and that you insist on spitting at the Bible. God is clear and I understand that- and you seem bewildered by that. You attack my theology- and yet- you have not read the Bible!! What in the world is all of this stalking and gossip about with other posters? Gay love could be it- it would make sense. OR you are the same posters? It is very clear how God would judge you calling a lawyer. So- Call a lawyer. A Gold person would make the point that threatening lawsuits against people is not part of God's plan, and in fact address that in the word- to help us shape our behavior and become more like Him. You have stalked me over here from LP- because you saw that your harassment of me at LP got me to leave the site for awhile- and you want to try to make me leave this site. So you signed up - and jumped right in. You have no reason to beleive that you have been gifted with grace red. You are threatening a person who prayed for you and your family. You are very ill. I pray for you. You think a lawyer is going to fix what is broken in your life? Pft... Turn to God. A lawyer is going to tell you to pay up- and then laugh at you. No court would take your case! Please.
Do you think anyone believes anything you post? lol. Please.. but God knows what happened. I have no need to defend myself against that statement, because God will avenge me. He always does. He avenges me and then blesses me. That concept is a promise from the word of God. That is how a follower can have peace in their hearts. I pray you find some of that peace today. It's awesome. God bless you harrowup.
They don't have to. They just have to see that you claimed redleg was stalking you and the record shows that you whacked at him first. But that is what you do everywhere you post. Thought you were taking off for Lent or did Jesus give you a choice of which 40 days you want?
:) You do follow every word I post, don't you? You really pay attention to me and keep note. I learn such huge things at this forum. I did take a break, it led me to some great revelations. These posts with red and gary give me some great insight about the very religious. They are both very religious. It is fascinating to me what lengths they will go to to try and shut me up, because they do not share my theology about the Holy Spirit. People who are very firm in their faith do not do the things they do, or say the things they say.. so I wonder- WHY do the lack faith in God? Why would red not have the faith that God would avenge him- IF he were wronged? Why would gary get so personally upset if I talk about the Holy SPirit? Does he lack faith that God's word does not go out and produce what it was meant to produce? So- anyway- I love to study people, and I am studying this whole interchange and interestingly enough I have been able to predict almost everything they have done and said, so I am being guided by the Holy Spirit to see how horrible people are - when they lack faith. It is the downfall of our society. People threatening to sue each other- harassment - ego- all of that. All the ugly stuff- right here in a safe container for me to see. SO- the answer is I am sort of taking a break, but I don't want to miss this opportunity to learn either, and I am being guided to learn Biblical lessons about- so it's all good. I am doing a study in the Book of Numbers- want to chat about that? And actually it the Holy Spirit that guides us. Jesus redeems and defends us. God bless you harrowup.
*smh*
Well, drop kick me jeezass...to coint a phrase.
I swore an oath to care for the sick.
lol- you are so fascinated with me. You and your whole crew. I wonder if an hour goes by that one of you don't think of me. lol... ah.. too funny. But hey- if y'all start talking about the Bible and God- while you stalk and harass me around- that will be good. :) God does make everything beautiful. God even loves nutty cyber stalkers. Tell everyone I said a prayer for them all then next time you have a stalking site- or PM gossip session. God has risen so we can have peace- so peace be to you. Peace harrowup. Seek God.
Diva, if you review every one of my posts on this thread you will not find malice towards you or your family. I debate your doctrine and theology. You put your personal experience and perceived authority ahead of the Apostles of the NT. That is our point of contention. The first rule of debating is to discuss the issue and not make it personal. When folks make a debate personal, it is a sure fire sign of admitting they choose to no longer discuss the issue or a clear admission they can no longer continue a reasoned discussion. I invite you to post to me where I have introduced malice towards you. As you review this thread you will find that at no point do I even respond to you other than when you address me personally. I was in a dialogue with Buckaroo, then you decided to point out to him, you had "better" knowledge to inform him. You will then realize, if you are honest, that what you posted had absolutely nothing to do with what Buck and I were discussing. So I challenged you to explain yourself, and instead you concluded that since I challenged you, I was a sexual deviant. It is evident to me and many others on LF and other places, that you want to talk on these message boards and not listen. If someone disagrees with you...challenges you, you then proceed to defame the person. I am not the first, nor will I be the last to receive your defamation. Ultimately, the LF community will make their reasoned judgments of posts here. I trust they will find me fair. So put me on bozo and you will not have to hear from me again.
diva what is with the nonsense? It isn't very christ like.
Stone- as I have said before- gary and red have been constantly on the attack of my theology for over a year. It started at LP. I didn't have an issue with red- I even prayed for him and his family and posted prayers for something he asked for prayer about... gary doesn't agree with my theology regarding the Holy Spirit and he is very threatened by what I say- and very nasty about me as a person, so we had some discussions about that at LP. Red became very defensive of gary- and then red started to just call me names and thread stalk me, and encourage other people to call me names, to malign me and what I was posting- over at LP... So I left the site for a few days, because they were being downright childish- and lo and behold red shows up at this site- with gary- on this very thread, where I was talking to buck , and there they are posting things about our discussions over at LP, from over a year. Note that gary cut and pasted my posts from LP- from over a year ago!!! Hello!! Stone... paying attention? :) Do you like that stuff at your site? Look a little weird to you? Gary starts posting to "all" ,things related to discussions that the three of us had over at LP. Therefore- I really do beleive that red's reaction to my disagreements with gary says they are either lovers- OR they are the same poster. WHO gets so personally involved with another poster, over disagreements that are not theirs? Anyway- go an look up our posts at LP to each other, note the dates. Note the date of red's sign up here at LP.. Notice anything? Using right judgement is very Christ like. Paul told us to discern who is who. These two posters can not tolerate the idea of me speaking. Do you think THAT is Christ like? I don't. FWIW- threatening a nonesense lawsuit against an old line argument is not Christ like. I would think a forum owner would want to point that out. Just sayin. :)
I am YOU, but without the stamp of approval from 'Christ' you seem to think you have, to do what it is you do. You picked me up, along with multitudes of others, when you decided to resgister under an anonymous pseudonym on the internet and engage with strangers....you picked me up when you began your crusade of bearing false witness, took it upon yourself to spread lies other's uttered about posters you didn't even know, and carry those lies farther than anyone ever could. If you're what passes for 'Christ like', then Jim Jones is in line for Sainthood.
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
Diva, I did not follow you over here. I have been a member of LF for many years. It is wild speculation on your part that red and I are gay. I have never even met the man in person. He claims to be married, and I am likewise married. I was posting to MrSpock on LP last year, when you jumped into the discussion, and made remarks critical of me. You continued interrupting, and finally I responded. Your attacks left me no choice, but to respond to your posts. I could respond, with several additional harsh posts regarding your doctrines, but out of love for Christ I will pass.
murron- you have stalked me all over the place making all sorts of claims and calling names and ganging up with other people and spreading gossip- for years and I never even post to you. I like seeing posts from you, because it gives me a moment to reflect and thank God for the many blessings he has given me. I thank him that I don't have to stalk and harass people and lie and manipulate and distort- and all of the yucky things you do. I praise God for the peace in my heart, for the fact that if anyone has wronged me HE will avenge me. I am so thankful for that calm assurance. I wish you had that peace and didn't have to obsess about me. I wish you could have the assurance that if you were wronged, your name would be cleared. I haven't done those things, but your blind hatred and bitter spirit holds you in deep bondage. I will pray for you- but you really do need to release your obsession with me. I am on your mind every single time you are on these sites. Go have fun. Grow up, let go. I have nothing to do with you. Unless you really are laine and I offended your gay lover by speaking the truth. I have never lied about one thing online. I don't have to. Why would I? That is so silly. You just have invented a grudge and you refuse to let it go. It is controlling you. :shrugs: If you are someone's gay lover- well- then that would explain this tremendous passion you hold for me, and I would offer that it has made you blind with rage and anger and it controls you. I am not returning it- ok? Peace See ya bye :) God bless you.
Stone, cleanup in Aisle 381 please.
gary- you have proved to be a liar so many times that it would be a waste of my time to entertain anything you say. You gossip and lie and you will do anything to try to prevent me from speaking. But God bless you, because I have learned so much about why Jesus warned us about the religious legal experts. As a minister myself , I will pray for you- as I have for a year now.
&;-)
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
You say things like that quite often, one has to wonder if you might be a DYKE on a fishin trip of her own! This is an open forum rev. mutha, everyones opinion is welcome here, unless the site owner thinks that the person might have crossed the line. As for me, you lying POS, you've smeared quite a few people with your filthy, low-down "gay lover" insinuations. You'd like to think that, you'd like for your fans (whoever they may be) to think that, but to be honest, we are the few who have your number drama queen, and it galls the hell out of you. What you are messin with rev. mutha, is a Kentucky Woman, who has fire and ice in her blood. I can throw a punch, pack heat, bake a cake, fish with the boys, and love with a passion. And if I have an opinion, or think for a moment you're lying, you bet you're gonna hear it. ("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
hehe- murron, thank you for being a part of this thread. I really learn so much from these interactions. I never post to you, except for when you attack me-but you are all over me, all of the time. You read everything I say. You have devoted hours to me- and why? Your obsession is duly noted, and you are not honest at all- so I won't even entertain what you say. I had a question in my mind about human nature and why the people around Jesus reacted the way they did. The Lord is amazing the resources he will use to help me understand human nautre. These threads are priceless. It is so helpful, when I minister to people, to understand the fallen nature of people. You help me see it. Why would you care so much about me? What lengths will gary and red go to to prove they are right? What strange bedfellows you all make- in hunting down and mocking one single person, in an attempt to run someone off one more forum. That is about the ego. Egos will attract other egos- and be satan's playground. It helps me see that the people who reject the Spirit of God are hopeless. You have not changed in the years you have been following me around- and it is still not clear what the course of your passion is for me. Just blind hate. You are defined by hate. I can't make you put the hate down and experience goodness. You have to want to do it- and actually do it- and then reap the benefits. When you are here being egged on by the others, you will cling to your hate - in order to soothe your ego. So to buck- it doesn't matter what version of the Bible anyone reads. It only matters who has the Spirit of God- and walks in faith. :) God bless you murron.
And, once again, diva, you are lying: And for gary and the artillery man who may not know how diva's psychotic drive has been constant for over ten years so take a look at this thread where it started here, libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=5325&Disp=132#C132 as a carry over. Mel and Murron both give a damn good capsule of diva's destructive behavior. Diva won't stop as long as she is supported by the likes of buckeroo, liberator and war, so just ignore her. She will still interject but move on if you will. Meaning no disrepect to the Diety, Diva is as far from Jesus/God as I am from Pluto + infinity.
No one is following you around. Murron was her years before you. So was Gary.
:) ok stone. See what you want to see. I think that is a running theme around here. Best wishes with that. If you enjoy a forum where people thread stalk each other bringing up all sorts of nonsense- just let people know what they are getting into when you invite them to post here. That would good of you. But if you want a nasty mess of thread stalkers and fights- go for it.. just be honest with the posters. I think the time has come that many of the posters are wondering what the rules are and who your favorites are- and what they are allowed to get away with. Kinda like FR redux ... lol.. But spell it out for us. :) Other posters want to know too.
Your link is broken. :)
Harrowup seems to be stalking me and lucysmom too, with his lies and innuendo. And yesterday he really got his tit caught in the ringer
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
No one is stalking anyone. You all post in the same forums. People are going to reply to the posts. I'm pretty sure you and Lucysmom are two different people just like me and all the people I'm claimed to be are different people. Spend too much time in these joints, and paranoia creeps up on you. (Not you, but you get my drift, I'm sure.) I've been hearing stalking claims for so many years, I just laugh at them now. lol
I used to post in the same office with my now dead friend john Delato when I ran the Community Media Center in Eugene, Oregon on Willamette St. He used 'Raisedeyebrows' as a nick when we tag teamed on eLPee. We hear much whining from Goldi about how I allegedly had two nicks and that he was me. After all, we had the same IP address. People need to get a life rather than spend so much time trying to play Detective Columbo. John Delato/akasha/Raisedeyebrows 1956-2009
lol....Well stated, Mike. <3
And i'm sorry to hear about your friend.
Thanks, we miss him a great deal. Some of the best fun I had posting online was with him as a tag team partner in the days when eLPee was actually a free speech site. He was a well of inspiration we all miss here.
LOL Harrowup says that I post here at my own peril. Your friend is quite funny, I think you needed to ping him to your 'assessment'.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
If he's stalking you, then I need not ping him. lol
Glad you are still here, you and Lucysmom both. I get so tired of this sort of attempt to fix what is not broken.
I'm just stating the obvious, as I really don't take him seriously. He's too obsessive to not get caught in his own trap.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Be careful not to accuse everyone of stalking you or people will start thinking you are DBR. She is the most stalked person on the Internet. :)~ lmao j/k
What is thread stalking? People reply to posts they are interested in. There are no formal rules. That would lend itself to all kinds of semantic attacks on me if I didn't word it exactly correct. Here are some guidelines. Don't piss the host off by calling him nasty names. Debate issues you are interested in. Be honest. Going around calling Gary and Redge faggots isn't exactly what I'm looking for. But I let it pass because that is what people do sometimes. And I'm sure everyone knows you are just making that up anyway. Like I said it reflects more on you then them. Don't get mad I'm just telling it like I see it.
You mean the host that quotes Exodus about how people of a religion he detests should not be suffered to live. you mean that one? Perhaps he could use a wee bit more politesse and respect for human life in his presentation, yes? Perhaps too, it would behoove said forum functionary to not call people liars to bait them because he feels the view he calls false does not match the stereotype he feels is how all people to the left of him is. I never gave you back in forum anything you did not richly deserve. You should think about that.
This isn't Canada. People can quote scripture. Why do you hate the Bible? What the Bible says about witches is true. I say it as a someone concerned for you.
Do you square or trim your beard, eat shellfish or do any of those spoken against as bad by various people who wrote that religious tome? There are plenty of old testament passages that are wacko. It was as big a crime as the Shoah against Jews in WW II to kill people by the thousands over religious disagreement in the 15th century in England and other parts of Europe. Often it was done just to do in a political enemy or 'uppity' woman; or one who was old and merely talked to herself, or her animals. And you say it you do it to bait and belittle. I am not ever fooled by your attempts to be coy. No one is.
Stalking is creating a thread about posters with whom you have occasional disagreements and inviting the whole forum to pile on while you openly try to create animosity for those same posters on other forums. Too bad it backfired so badly on you. Boo Hoo
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
If Christianity were merely a philosophy or a political idea, no one would be bound to believe it. There are rival schools of philosophy; there are rival teachings and theories, and one person believes this and another that. But what we are facing here is not what you and I believe, but facts, and the facts are about this person called Jesus—what He did and what He said and the meaning of His person. So there is nothing more tragic than when men and women say, “Shut your Bibles; the facts don’t matter at all. What does it matter whether Jesus was a man, or God as well as man?” They have got it all wrong. It is the person who matters most of all.
Sorry dude, he more than likely did not exist, and that religion was formulated and groomed for the purpose to exercise social control over people. I have zero use for Christianity, and no belief in it in the slightest bit. I never have, and that sort of thing will never happen. You have leave to feel what you want about it, but I have no toleration for intolerance of others over religion; whether the Jihadist is Islamic, or Christian. Try to force me to comply with belief, and get reciprocal force back atcha.
Sorry dude, he more than likely did not exist, and that religion was formulated and groomed for the purpose to exercise social control over people. I am not here to force anything on you, rather I am here to witness to the FACTS of the Gospel, which are solid historical EVIDENCES. Myth? There is enough evidence to send ten men to the gas chamber. That said, I will not force what I know for certainity on you. Your blood is on your head.
Like the word says willingly ignorant. We all choose where we go in the afterlife. You have willingly chose the hot place. I pity you fool.
Likewise, you arrogant dumb shit.
That is so sales pitch oriented only. It has nothing to do logically with the inherent nature of living things to move to a higher plateau of consciousness. As a Wicca practitioner, I have been very forgiving of Stone's childishness in his ineffective bull in a china shop routine trumpeting your religion. I am left very satisfied I am comporting myself religiously far better than some of you Christians. No complains against you specifically, but some of you all are ate the fuck up when it comes to allegedly witnessing your faith to those of us who will never want to hear any more about the sales pitch we reject. I'm glad your faith gives you comfort, but it does nothing for me, and never will. I never believed it when I was coerced to go to church as a child, and I will never return to a faith I never had in the slightest bit.
What do you get from your Wicca faith?
Mike probably doesn't see Wicca as a faith, but it clearly is his faith.
Everyone has some sort of faith. It is hotwired into humans to have faith in something even if it is only yourself.
Stone has been a poison pill dampening that aspect of religious discussion. He has harassed me about my strong religious beliefs since before he had a forum. Any place like this one where he is the moderator is going to be a place of hatred and loathing of anyone not Christian or Jewish. I would love to answer you; but not in this climate. he has to grow up and learn to respect others before that sort of discussion is remotely possible at flamerland.
You're ashamed of your "faith". Good.
Translation: I like Wiccan because there's no 10 commandments or hell, so anything goes! God bless Stone for keeping FM from revealing the truth. /s Your cop out excuse is weak, very weak.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
Too bad more Christians don't practice their 'faith'.
Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET
Fuck off. I am disgusted by your childish and intolerant nature.
Nice picture of you, hope your split tongue heals well.
Cop out? your spin is stupid. I am supposed to discuss something that causes the childish and immature forum moderator to whine because everyone is not as toxic in their religion as him and that's a cop out? I don't think so. Talk about weak bait. Very amusing Hondo, very amusing.
Stone is very self centered and malicious, and he uses his faith to bait others with. Perhaps the boy will grow up someday, but I doubt it.
You presume I am here to continue posting as usual on your site. The religious topic is hardly the only thing I have written off as a useless exercise in discussion with you. You are no one I feel comfortable talking to on many things, not just my faith. I am concerned you are increasingly removed from reality and irrationally insulting and aggressive. You are not a good choice of a person to discuss much of anything with. Hope this reality check helps.
Mike, you ignorant slut... When are you going to make good on your promise to stop posting on this site?
Mike. I am intolerant of evil. I want to squash it like a bug. Mike you are a cockroach. You aren't a cultural American. Your religion is the path to Satan. Your religion is that of murderers. I spit on the wiccan "religion". Now watch your mouth or I will give you the boot.
If you don't like it here leave and never come back. You will hardly be missed. This is a pro American website. Not a satanist website. I will mock your religion as long as you are here. I don't care for it. I certainly have no respect for it or its adherents. It isn't even a religion you have. It is just a bunch of stupid beliefs by drug abusers and losers.
Not to bait little dweeb. To bash your sick Obama voting ass with. You voted for the destruction of America. You aren't a real American. You should consider leaving this land, it isn't for you and your satanists. It is for christians and people with values. You have none. None at all.
I'm red hot. God doesn't want luke warm. But you don't know about God you only know about you pretend "goddess" who is actually the devil.
They would never leave because they know anywhere else they go they probably wouldn't be around very long..... besides that the handouts are too enticing!!
A taxpayer that votes for Obama is like a chicken that votes for Col Sanders!!!!
Your childish and quite pedestrian baiting does not bother me, and impresses very few in here.
I pity you fool. Jeremiah 17 says it all: 5 Thus says the Lord: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the Lord. 6 For he shall be like a shrub in the desert, And shall not see when good comes, But shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, In a salt land which is not inhabited. 7 “Blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, And whose hope is the Lord. 8 For he shall be like a tree planted by the waters, Which spreads out its roots by the river, And will not fear[b] when heat comes; But its leaf will be green, And will not be anxious in the year of drought, Nor will cease from yielding fruit. 9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? 10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings. 11 “As a partridge that broods but does not hatch, So is he who gets riches, but not by right; It will leave him in the midst of his days, And at his end he will be a fool.”
What does your faith say about abortion? Is it murder or a choice?
I am against abortion. Generally my faith is like the Christian one; some support a woman's choice to do so, some don't. This is another reason I don't care for the jerk owning this forum. I give my opinion on this topic, and he capriciously and maliciously claims I believe the opposite.
Just the facts. You voted for Obama. Pro abortion. You voted for Gore. Pro abortion. You voted for Kerry. Pro abortion. You voted for Clinton. Pro abortion. You voted for Dukakis. Pro abortion. You voted for Mondale. Pro abortion. You voted for Carter. Pro abortion. Was McGovern Pro abortion too? Your record is the record of a pro abortionist. Actions speak louder then words. I expect you to vote for pro abortion Obama this election. You are a known liar.
I am anti-abortion. And any interlocutor with so much hubris and insanity they would argue against a person having a view they have had for seventeen years is too stupid to take serious except as a wacko. Face it Stonie, you can't stand having people support an end to abortion who once believed in it. But that is exactly what we need to have happen to end the procedure. Good political advocacy involves spending time and energy working to change opinions; not crucifying those who once supported abortion. If you succeed in pissing people off enough to change ther minds again to be pro-choice, what have you accomplished? Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory? What a waste of time and energy that could be spent in advocacy to end abortion. You are insane and a clown who cares more about baiting fellow anti-abortion advocates than in ending the practice. Go away boy; you bother me. You probably upset any farm animals you get close to too.
If you succeed in pissing people off enough to change ther minds again to be pro-choice, what have you accomplished? Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?" If you are sincere in what you say in the first place, NOTHING stone says, or anyone else for that matter, will change your mind, if you change your mind because someone pissed you off, you wern't honest to begin with. jmho!
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
Actually Moron with a U and extra r, people can be made to look agasp at some of the characters they are aligned with in the pro-life movement and decide that though they do not like abortion, they would rather the problem as it exists than to empower insatiable fanatics that are out for their blood for having once been pro-choice. If you want to make the difference in the life of a child and keep her or him alive, a wee bit of diplomacy and pragmatism works wonders to make people feel comfortable with a new way of looking at the issue. We are not going to get the numbers needed to stop the foul practice of abortion with routine fifteen minutes of hate sessions complete with torches and pitchforks to chide and belittle people for once believing in a pro-choice philosophy. One way of building consensus saves the lives of children, the other starts a cultural war and gives the pro-abortion ammunition. Of course though, your angle is a typical reflexive reactionary attitude toward anything I say. And you will not grasp the concept I explain that has always been a component in well organized and run activism. Now run along back to your still now mammy, you hear? You are a big a bother as boy Stonie.
I cannot speak for your faith, but those who profess to be Christian and are pro abortion are fooling themselves. They are obviously following a different Gospel preached by Jesus Christ. For the Christian the premise for pro Life is the Bible. What is your premise for being pro Life?
What you mean, you bloviating narcissist pig, is that I, like a few others, have your act down pat, we don't fall for your sugar coated politically correct bull shit, you never say anything without an ulterior motive. You're not here for anything as nobel as 'pro-life', you're here, in your own words, to "encourage anyone here to shun (stone's) your forum".... You've made your boast that if you ever get into a forum with stone again, you will 'kick his ass', well, I'm waiting, when does it begin, because so far, it's your ass that's getting kicked. You're a small minded person who has high ideas about himself, yet you've never created anything of importance yourself, you're no good at it, but you have proven yourself good at going from forum to forum, under anonymous psuedos, attempting to round up other's who will join you in the fun, attempting to destroy what another person has built up. You use people, you lie to them, and about them, you'll say anything to get them to let their guard down, you're a snake in the grass.... Loathing you, and everything about you Mike, is my only 'angle'. I may be a 'mammy' to you and the lil idiots who think you're cute, but I have your number, and you know it, and you hate me for it! jmho!
("Every fetus that DOESN'T go on welfare in 18 years because he/she was aborted yesterday... brings a smile to my face today" ~ GrandIsland - LibertyPost)
It hates me more, the cornflake girl bozoed me! LOL It can't handle the truth.
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
Any guy who calls himself corn flake girl doesn't have even a passing acquaintance with truth.
war has to do something for entertainment; the voices in his head aren't speaking to him and his imaginary friends have found reasons not to come over anymore.
Sounds like you are scratching the meth mites a wee bit too hard, mammy. ;-D
the fact that I outed the returning bannee account after I was done with it says I do. I always outed all my returning bannee accounts on FR too as the point was not to post as someone else to fool anyone for any length of time. ;-)
If I saw someone beating a child, i'd jump on and defend the young one even if it put my life in jeopardy. That is just good ethical conduct, and one need not apply religion to get comprehension of what is or is not ethical. I have talked people out of getting an abortion, and pointedly told others who got them I did not believe in the practice. I believe that the fight to end abortion requires respect of the fact it is legal when the law is followed, because being violent to end violence in this case actually will cost lives, as it gives the pro abortion ammunition they use to polarize the issue in their favor. The fight to end abortion must be a legal one that does not undermine our system of governance, and the manner in which we enforce and prosecute crime.
In order for this to happen, there has to be some moral principles followed. How are moral principles determined in your worldview?
Heal me, O Lord, and I shall be healed; Save me, and I shall be saved, For You are my praise. Jeremiah 17:14
Ok, your post was just TOO good to pass up...! And your conclusions are exactly correct. However, I believe you missed some very interesting details that clarify what rat-boy is all about... So I'll go point-by-point... You're not here for anything as nobel as 'pro-life', you're here, in your own words, to "encourage anyone here to shun (stone's) your forum".... You've made your boast that if you ever get into a forum with stone again, you will 'kick his ass', well, I'm waiting, when does it begin, because so far, it's your ass that's getting kicked. rat-boy gives away plenty about who he really is... All you have to do is remember the details- which I happen to be very good at. Rat-boy was washed out of the Army, for having a big mouth, and being a political activist (an incrediby stupid thing to do, while you're in the military!). You can't even really call him a "soldier," as he was simply a mechanic in a helicopter yard. After he got booted from the Army, he slummed around for a while, working odd jobs, and bragged about the "trust" someone put in him, by hiring him to be a janitor. LMAO. I can just imagine the building manager saying, "yeah, we TRUST him... to unplug the toilets!" WOW. Aren't you impressed? So rat-boy, to be blunt, has no marketable skills, a huge ego, and is basically broke. Here, let me give you an example: He alluded that the pic I posted of a twin to my 2000 Mercury Gran Marquis- a 10 year-old [disposable] tuna-boat car that I paid $5000 cash for- was a fancy "luxury" car... LMAO. God knows what POS he drives... and still makes monthly payments on! So you see, he's a complete loser, basically living off of others, because he's infected with a such dull stupidity, yet too arrogant to realize he's got nothing. His high-falootin' ideology aside, he's a friggin' janitor. This is how he makes himself feel like a man... because he's too weak, and too effeminate, to ever actually BE a man. (And yes, he posted his pic, once... imagine Lenny Kosnowki, AKA "Lenny," from the Laverne and Shirley Show: As you now understand, the closest he gets to "kicking ass" is when he pounds somebody's fist with his face three, maybe four times, to get the message across... He's a douche, pure and simple. Exactly correct, as the above explanation clarifies. No, he does this because this is the ONLY way he can feel "power." It's all he's got. At the end of the day, he's just another wannabe, a person who envies what he has neither the courage nor strength to work for and get on his own. Because he can't earn what he wants, he'll settle for stealing it from others who did earn what they have... And thus he's established that he'll be a loser for the rest of his pathetic life... Being so shallow, so feckless, he'll never have a family, never know what life is really all about. There are two kinds of people: those who give, and those who take. rat-boy will never be able to afford to give to others, because his life is devoid of anything worthy. Taking from others is all he knows. And taking condemns him to an unhappy, pathetic existence. He isn't to be hated, just ignored as the feral little mutt he is. And if he tries to take from you, then dispatch him, without remorse.
To: mcToejam, rat-boy, drippy, Alzheimer Fred, whitesands, t-bird,
(Translation)
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(Paraphrase)
5 Obey the laws, then, for two reasons: first, to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should. 
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#2. To: hondo68 (#1)
#3. To: freedomsnotfree (#2)
#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)
#5. To: freedomsnotfree (#4)
no doubt Stone...my only comment was the ridiculousness of GOD wanting us to follow/obey evil and corrupt government.
#6. To: A K A Stone (#5)
#7. To: hondo68 (#1)
The NIV is revisionist history at it's worst, written by satist NWO neocon libtards. The following chart demonstrates just how far they strayed...
#8. To: freedomsnotfree, hondo68 (#2)
I use the Geneva bible, often called the pilgrims bible because it's the bible brought over on the Mayflower, and pre-dates the King James bible by 51 years.
#9. To: A K A Stone (#3)
God gave the government certain responsibilities. Such as punishing murderers and thieves. Maybe a lot of other stuff that governments do that aren't sanctioned in the Bible are not legitimate.
#10. To: buckeroo (#9)
What version or variation of the Christian Bible do you most often refer to, Stone? You say you are a devout Christian from time to time.
#11. To: buckeroo (#9)
Does your quote (above) have any impact regarding the behaviour of those in the United States Government? I only ask because you brought it up.
#12. To: A K A Stone (#10)
I use the King James Bible.
#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)
God gave the government certain responsibilities. Such as punishing murderers and thieves.
#14. To: buckeroo (#7)
American printers discovered that they could leave out the Apocrypha and sell the Bible for the same price, and no one would care because it wasn’t used much. Some of the homegrown religious groups naïvely assumed that whatever was not in their Bible was not in the canon. Later, when Catholics became a significant segment of the population, a non-Catholic would say, “That’s not in the Bible” to a Catholic, completely unaware that it was the printer who left it out. A Lutheran pastor told me that one of his parishioners was insistent that the Lutheran Church did not recognize the Apocrypha as canonical. The parishioner was astonished when he saw the church by-law that says it is.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#15. To: hondo68 (#14)
Gideon is just a KJV
#16. To: buckeroo (#15)
passages of Romans 13 with respect to the Gideon Bible
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#17. To: buckeroo (#12)
I use the King James Bible.
#18. To: hondo68 (#16)
Should be the same as KJV.
#19. To: A K A Stone (#17)
Things are watered down.
#20. To: buckeroo (#18)
Why is that other version you offered so different? How did you know that, too?
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#21. To: hondo68 (#20)
I keep it in the bathroom in case I run out of toilet paper
New Living Translation (NLT) Romans 13 Respect for Authority
#22. To: hondo68 (#1)
#23. To: buckeroo, *Ron Paul for President* (#22)
the Coptic Church
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#24. To: hondo68 (#23)
#25. To: buckeroo (#24)
The Coptics are pretty much centralized in Egypt
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#26. To: hondo68 (#25)
#27. To: buckeroo (#26)
(Edited)
Article I posted ages ago at TOS... How Preachers Incited Revolution
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#28. To: hondo68 (#27)
#29. To: buckeroo (#28)
hy anyone would BELIEVE some of these English translations of the Christian Holy Bible as taught these days in the churches across the USA
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#30. To: jwpegler (#29)
#31. To: buckeroo (#30)
what English translation do they use?
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#32. To: jwpegler (#29)
(Edited)
The Eastern Orthodox Church officially uses the Septuagint, the Greek Old Testament which was translated from the original Hebrew language into Greek in the third century B.C. The Septuagint of the Orthodox Church contains all the Canonical Books and the Anaginoskoinena Books "worthy to be read" (called Apocrypha in the English Versions). For the New Testament, the original Greek text is used by the Greek Church, while the other Orthodox Churches have translated the Bible into their own native languages from the original Greek, with the Slavonic translation the oldest. The Orthodox Church has not, as yet, translated the Bible into English and so has no official English translation. In the meantime, the Orthodox are temporarily using both the King James Version and the Revised Standard Version.
Rom.13 [1] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.
#33. To: buckeroo (#28)
#34. To: freedomsnotfree (#2)
Good grief...I use the Geneva bible, often called the pilgrims bible because it's the bible brought over on the Mayflower, and pre-dates the King James bible by 51 years
The Epistle Of The Apostle Paul To The Romans - Romans 1-7
#35. To: diva betsy ross, hondo68 (#33)
(Edited)
Jesus was NOT a rebel against the government. He was a rebel against darkness, illness and hatred.
#36. To: buckeroo (#35)
(Edited)
#37. To: diva betsy ross (#36)
You have to go so much deeper.
#38. To: buckeroo (#37)
#39. To: hondo68, all (#28)
From Library Journal Stout provides an exhaustive, scholarly survey of the content of both regular and special-occasion sermons in New England from 1630 to 1776. Unlike most previous studies, this monograph treats manuscript sources as well as printed sources. The more than 2000 sermons Stout studies are divided into five generational cohorts based on the dates of the clergy's education, and they give a creditable sample of what the average colonial New Englander heard from the pulpit. For Stout, all five colonial clergy generations experienced and preached a continuing concept of New England settlers as a convenanted people with a unique relationship to God similar to ancient Israel's. Strongly recommended for academic and seminary libraries.Susan A. Stussy, Marian Coll. Lib., Indianapolis Copyright 1986 Reed Business Information, Inc.
#40. To: diva betsy ross (#38)
Follow your free will. Whatever.
#41. To: buckeroo (#32)
The Eastern Orthodox Church officially uses the Septuagint...
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#42. To: jwpegler (#41)
#43. To: buckeroo, diva betsy ross, *Yukon neo-Progressive Vermin* (#39)
Harry Stout. I'm buying his book: The New England Soul: Preaching and Religious Culture in Colonial New England
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#44. To: hondo68, diva betsy ross (#43)
#45. To: buckeroo (#42)
If you're gonna stir my pot, you'd better get a good grip on the handle!
#46. To: buckeroo (#44)
(Edited)
The New Testament was NOT dropped from heaven.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#47. To: buckeroo (#42)
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#48. To: jwpegler (#46)
Finally in 396 AD, the new Testament was declared finalized. However there were still bibles produced in the east that contained Barnabas, but not Revelations for sometime after the decree.
#49. To: All (#39)
#50. To: buckeroo (#49)
(Edited)
a timeline upto 1776. HAHAHAHAHA .. I wonder why?
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#51. To: jwpegler (#47)
#52. To: buckeroo (#40)
(Edited)
#53. To: buckeroo (#51)
(Edited)
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#54. To: hondo68 (#50)
Eventually they seemed to end up on FR and LP, claiming that they wuz hacked.
#55. To: diva betsy ross (#52)
read them all. Any one that I want to read. I also listen to people from all different denominations- go to temple on occasion, observe Jewish holy days- pray to keep all of the commandments- and read the Gnostic gospels. I also pray and ask for revelation.
I am very confident that there is nothing that you could explain to me.
You are not going to find understanding in any one single translation. It is not there.
#56. To: jwpegler (#53)
Is the Bible the "inspired" Word of God or the "inerrant" Word of God? In other words, did God dictate word-for-word what the authors of the New Testament books wrote or did God just inspire them to what to write what God was communicating?
#57. To: buckeroo (#55)
#58. To: diva betsy ross (#57)
Honestly... I have to spend some more time trying to figure out why you don't see the common threads, that connect all of those interpretations.
I am speechless that you don't see it.
I'll have to figure you out later, buck. Lent is here. 40 days. See you after Easter.
bye.
#59. To: buckeroo (#58)
(Edited)
#60. To: jwpegler (#46)
Paul, in 1 Timothy 5:18 joins both Old and New Testament references, and calls them Scripture.
[4] *“You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain. Luke 10:7 (ESV)
[7] And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for *the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.
#61. To: buckeroo (#0)
#62. To: hondo68 (#14)
American printers discovered that they could leave out the Apocrypha and sell the Bible for the same price, and no one would care because it wasn’t used much. Some of the homegrown religious groups naïvely assumed that whatever was not in their Bible was not in the canon. Later, when Catholics became a significant segment of the population, a non-Catholic would say, “That’s not in the Bible” to a Catholic, completely unaware that it was the printer who left it out. A Lutheran pastor told me that one of his parishioners was insistent that the Lutheran Church did not recognize the Apocrypha as canonical. The parishioner was astonished when he saw the church by-law that says it is. Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians use the Apocrypha, and it is part of the Bible for them. Many independent churches and low-church denominations think it is a Catholic addition when it is really a printer’s subtraction.
#63. To: jwpegler (#29)
The New Testament was originally written in Greek.
#64. To: GarySpFC (#60)
(Edited)
The books of the New Testament were complete prior to the end of the First Century.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#65. To: GarySpFC (#63)
(Edited)
The OC used the NKJV for their NT.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#66. To: GarySpFC (#62)
Judaism, which produced these books, has never accepted them into its Bible (the Hebrew Scriptures, corresponding to our OT).
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#67. To: GarySpFC (#60)
(Edited)
“You have to understand that the canon was not the result of a series of contests involving church politics. The canon is rather the separation that came about because of the intuitive insight of Christian believers. They could hear the Good Shepherd in the Gospel of John; they could hear it only muffled and distorted way in the Gospel of Thas miomxed in with a lot of other things. “When the pronouncement was made about the canon, it merely ratified what the general sensitivity of the church had already determined."
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#68. To: buckeroo (#58)
(Edited)
Prov 1:28-33 (NIV) "They will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me. Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord, since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke, they will eat of the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes. For the waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them; but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease, without fear of harm."
#69. To: diva betsy ross (#59)
Just like there is the Trinity.
#70. To: diva betsy ross (#68)
Unless I missed it, you didn't answer.
I have made a choice that my perception of life will not be from the eyes of a human being- who is not possible of healing, love and peace. And since I chose that- my life is blessed, safe and peaceful. THOSE are the consequences of my choice.
(KJV) Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
#71. To: GarySpFC, diva betsy ross, hondo68 (#61)
I generally read the ESV, NIV, NLT, NASB1995, and the KJV for English translations
#72. To: buckeroo (#69)
(Edited)
Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16
#73. To: diva betsy ross (#72)
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ.
#74. To: jwpegler (#64)
You are confusing 2 completely separate things:
#75. To: buckeroo (#44)
Strange as it may seem, the many variations we find with the Christian Holy Bible *IS* the very reason for the many variations of churches and interpretations of Jesus of Nazareth own words.
#76. To: GarySpFC (#75)
Church doctrine almost always is based on the Greek or Hebrew text, and seldom if ever translations.
#77. To: buckeroo (#56)
#78. To: buckeroo (#76)
#79. To: buckeroo (#76)
#80. To: GarySpFC, hondo68 (#77)
3-4. For those engaged in government are not a cause for fear to the good work but to the evil. Dost thou wish not to fear the authority? Do what is good, and thou shalt receive praise from it; for it is God's minister to thee for good. But, if thou doest evil, fear; for it is not to no purpose that it is armed with the sword; for it is God's minister, an agent of punishment for wrath to him who does evil.
These two verses are puzzling. The difficulty is that Paul seems to take no account of the possibility of the government's being unjust and punishing the good work and praising the evil. There seem to be three possible explanations: (i) Paul is so taken up with his own good experiences of the Roman authority that he is oblivious of the possibility that it might do what is unjust. But Paul himself had had other experiences (see Acts 16.22f, 37; 2 Cor 11.25ff). And could he ever forget that it was this same authority which had condemned and executed his Lord? (ii) Paul, though fully aware of this possibility, is here, as Calvin suggests, speaking only `of the true and natural duty of the magistrate', from which however `those who hold power often depart'. But it is hard to see how the giving of such a one-sided picture could be compatible with a serious pastoral purpose. Moreover, it would be in striking contrast to the realism of 8.35-39. (iii) Paul means that consciously or unconsciously, willingly or unwillingly, in one way or another, the power will praise the good work and punish the evil. The promise of v.3 is absolute: the Christian, in so far as he is obeying the gospel, may be sure that the power will honour him. It may indeed intend to punish him, but its intended punishment will then turn out to be praise. It may take his life, but in so doing it will but confer a crown of glory. On the other hand, if he does evil, it must needs punish him - though it may be by shameful honours or a false security. This third explanation, though admittedly difficult, seems preferable to the other two.
C. E. B. Cranfield. Romans: A Shorter Commentary (Kindle Locations 4650-4655). Kindle Edition.
#81. To: GarySpFC (#74)
(Edited)
they didn't need a church council to tell them what was canon, and neither do I.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#82. To: GarySpFC (#79)
HOW DO WE KNOW THAT THE BIBLE CAME FROM GOD?
#83. To: buckeroo (#73)
(Edited)
#84. To: buckeroo (#82)
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#85. To: diva betsy ross (#83)
#86. To: jwpegler (#84)
There are also huge differences between the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox versions of the Old Testament.
#87. To: buckeroo (#86)
Weird, isn't it?
#88. To: buckeroo (#80)
I think the entire Bible MUST be taken from a historical context, too
#89. To: mininggold (#87)
How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me.
#90. To: buckeroo (#89)
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists.
#91. To: buckeroo (#85)
#92. To: GarySpFC (#88)
Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria.
#93. To: diva betsy ross (#91)
I answered that question
#94. To: buckeroo (#82)
#95. To: buckeroo (#92)
#96. To: buckeroo (#92)
Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective.
#97. To: GarySpFC (#94)
The Talmud = Jewish oral Torah comprised of the Mishnah and the Gemana (Palestinian and Babylonian versions).
#98. To: GarySpFC (#96)
there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group.
#99. To: buckeroo (#93)
(Edited)
#100. To: buckeroo (#89)
We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists.
#101. To: diva betsy ross (#99)
I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions.
#102. To: GarySpFC (#100)
#103. To: buckeroo (#102)
But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain.
#104. To: buckeroo (#86)
(Edited)
I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion.
Philonic Talmudic Augustinian Exodus 20:1- 17 Deuteronomy 5:4- 21 — 1 — 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 4–5 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire ... saying, Pre 1 — 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 1 2 1 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 2 2 1 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 2 2 1 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 2 2 1 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 3 3 2 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 4 4 3 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 4 4 3 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 4 4 3 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 4 4 3 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. 5 5 4 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 6 6 5 13 Thou shalt not kill. 17 Thou shalt not kill. 7 7 6 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 8 8 7 15 Thou shalt not steal. 19 Neither shalt thou steal. 9 9 8 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10 10 9 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, 21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, 10 10 10 thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#105. To: buckeroo (#97)
This is a fitting title for a work that is a library of Jewish wisdom, philosophy, history, legend, astronomy, dietary laws, scientific debates, medicine, and mathematics. The Talmud is made up of interpretation and commentary of the Mosaic and rabbinic law contained in the Mishna, an exhaustive collection of laws and guidelines for observing the law of Moses. As a guide to following the law, the Talmud also serves as a basis for spiritual formation. More than 2,000 scholars or rabbis worked across a period of 250 years to understand the meaning of God’s word for their particular situation. Out of these efforts they produced the Talmud.
The wide variety and comprehensive detail of the Talmud’s subject matter conveys a deep thirst for learning. Questions as minute as why God created a gnat and as universal as the origin of the universe filled the teachers of Israel with wonder. A passion for truth and understanding led the Jewish teachers deep into the marvels of the human experience.
The Pharisees were the first to give greater attention to the laws of Moses. The Roman historian Josephus reported that their oral tradition included regulations that were not recorded in the Mosaic Law at all. The Mishna collected all of these oral regulations into one permanent record. In response to the Mishna, wide discussions concerning its content and meaning began, resulting in the Talmud.
The centers for these learned discussions were the academies in Babylonia and Israel. As a result, two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, were created. Because the Babylonian rabbis were far more thorough in word-by-word interpretation of the Mishna than were the rabbis in Israel, the Babylonian Talmud is much more complete. An English edition of this work fills 36 volumes and almost 36,000 pages.
The Talmud is divided into six major sections. The first of these deals with agriculture and crops and the offerings, tithes, and prayers associated with them. The second section is about holidays and festivals such as the Sabbath, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and others. A third section discusses laws about marriage, divorce, property, and related subjects. Another section concerns the rules governing the courts. The next section deals with the laws pertaining to the Temple and the sacrifices and Jewish foods. The final section discusses the laws of ritual purity.
At some points during Jewish history, traditions and the Talmud have been considered equal to or better than the Scripture itself. Jesus encountered such an attitude among the Pharisees even before the existence of the Talmud (Matt. 15:3). Christians must be careful not to make the same mistake in regard to our own traditions.
#106. To: mininggold, hondo68 (#103)
The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule.
How Preachers Incited Revolution
Angry colonists were rallied to declare independence and take up arms because of what they heard from the pulpit.
By Harry S. Stout
#107. To: GarySpFC (#105)
#108. To: GarySpFC (#105)
#109. To: mininggold (#103)
The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule.
#110. To: buckeroo (#108)
#111. To: GarySpFC, mininggold (#109)
Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration, US Minister to England and France, oldest Founding Father: "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern." America's God and Country, William Federer, p.251
#112. To: All (#110)
#113. To: jwpegler (#104)
#114. To: GarySpFC (#109)
#115. To: Liberator (#111)
(Edited)
Excellent citation, but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic.
#116. To: GarySpFC (#110)
The Orthodox and Conservative Jews see authority for their belief system in the written Word, whereas Reformed Jews do not. My mentor and best friend for ten years was a Jew, who converted to Christianity.
#117. To: mininggold (#114)
#118. To: buckeroo (#116)
And Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. What faction of the Jews did he represent? At his time: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Zealots represented the known Jewish factions according to Josephus' in "Jewish Antiquities.
#119. To: buckeroo (#113)
And, the Ten Commandments is the bedrock for Judaism and Christianity and Muslim faiths.
#120. To: GarySpFC (#117)
Baloney, where do you think we got our 3 branches of government from? Madison found it in the Bible.
#121. To: All (#119)
#122. To: All (#121)
#123. To: Liberator, GarySpFC, mininggold (#111)
but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic.
#124. To: GarySpFC (#119)
I would not include Muslims in that group.
#125. To: GarySpFC (#122)
#126. To: GarySpFC (#121)
John Adams...
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#127. To: GarySpFC (#121)
John Adams,
#128. To: GarySpFC (#118)
buckeroo: And Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. What faction of the Jews did he represent? At his time: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Zealots represented the known Jewish factions according to Josephus' in "Jewish Antiquities."
#129. To: buckeroo (#123)
You must have skipped class in a formal institution concerning History of America that day, while attending a local church about some sermon practicing HELL_FIRE&DAMNATION if you are not baptized in the blood of Christ. This is incorrect from a historical perspective. The idea of taking up arms against the British wasnot and isnot a CHRISTIAN concept. Similar to the poppycock about the same in a modern sense: GOTO WAR AGAINST THE MUSLIMS. It is all pure unadulterated crapola.
#130. To: GarySpFC (#129)
(Edited)
hat's not correct. Where do you think the term unalienable rights originated? Are you aware that American Churches and pastors played a major role in the Revolution?
#131. To: buckeroo (#123)
The idea of taking up arms against the British wasnot and isnot a CHRISTIAN concept.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#132. To: hondo68 (#131)
It was a Christian duty to refuse to worship King George, and rebel.
#133. To: buckeroo (#113)
And, the Ten Commandments is the bedrock for Judaism and Christianity and Muslim faiths.
#134. To: A K A Stone (#133)
the so called muslim faith isn't based on the 10 commandments.
#135. To: buckeroo (#134)
#136. To: A K A Stone (#135)
They worship Mohammad. They say to kill christians and Jews. They want the land God gave the Jews. Those are just a few of the facts about the muslim cult that you seem to like so much.
#137. To: buckeroo (#136)
#138. To: A K A Stone (#137)
What I said is true.
#139. To: buckeroo (#128)
#140. To: mininggold (#130)
how was taking up arms against a Christian theological entity such as Britain considered a Christian
#141. To: buckeroo (#134)
Prove to me that the Muslims deny Abraham/Sarah/Isaiah whom are the same roots of Judaism and Christianity. Keep in mind, while performing your research, that I know better. So prove to me your perspective with links or references.
#142. To: GarySpFC (#139)
I am saying he [Jesus of Nazareth] was not a member of any of those groups. He wasn't required to be a member of a group.
his [Jesus of Nazareth] parents took him to Egypt to escape Herod. He was less than two years old.
#143. To: GarySpFC (#140)
Read the Declaration of Independence from beginning to end, and then tell me if you think King George was a Christian.
#144. To: GarySpFC (#141)
The 10 Commandments came on the scene via Moses about 600 years after Abraham.
#145. To: A K A Stone (#135)
They worship Mohammad.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#146. To: buckeroo, A K A Stone, *Yukon neo-Progressive Vermin* (#143)
depends on which side of the Atlantic you take sides with
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#147. To: hondo68 (#145)
but the moon god is their deity which is why they use the muzlim crescent moon symbol.
#148. To: buckeroo (#147)
#149. To: hondo68 (#146)
#150. To: Ferret Mike (#148)
#151. To: buckeroo (#142)
How do you know?
#152. To: buckeroo (#125)
Deism and atheism are not the same concepts. You are incorrect from a conceptual perspective.
#153. To: mininggold (#127)
So they copied certain principles of Christianity that could also be found in any number of other religions. And it's not like most colonists then wouldn't have been familiar and more accepting......
#154. To: buckeroo (#136)
#155. To: buckeroo (#144)
Of course. You have actually added to the thread not denying or suggesting otherwise that the three great religions are mutually inclusive from the original Jewish documents, circa ~1250 BCE.
#156. To: buckeroo (#150)
One of my ideas, although not advanced with supporting material (just yet) is that Jesus of Nazareth was caught up in a revolution in Judea at around the time of severe subjugation by both the Romans and Jews. The resultant events created the myths we read, irrespective of the variation of the Bible anyone reads.
#157. To: buckeroo, *Liberal Rehab Staff* (#150)
Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL!
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#158. To: GarySpFC (#154)
And this Islam calls for everyone in the world to submit to their way of life...Or die.
#159. To: GarySpFC (#151)
Herod was affiliated with the Herodians, and was an evil butcher, even murdering his own sons. Caesar said, "better to be a hog of Herod's than his son."
#160. To: hondo68 (#157)
#161. To: buckeroo (#159)
Herod was affiliated with the Herodians, and was an evil butcher, even murdering his own sons. Caesar said, "better to be a hog of Herod's than his son." Was Herod (pick any of them) a Jew?
#162. To: buckeroo (#160)
Of course, Jesus' earlier Sermon on the Mount in Galilee, pissed off a lot of folks, too. He was a REBEL!
#163. To: GarySpFC (#161)
Herold was a half Jew.
#164. To: GarySpFC (#162)
Jesus was murdered because He claimed to be God.
#165. To: GarySpFC (#162)
Jesus was murdered because He claimed to be God.
1. Now Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to be a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it, by the persuasion of Joazar, who was the son of Beethus, and high priest; so they, being over-pesuaded by Joazar's words, gave an account of their estates, without any dispute about it. Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, (1) of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, (2) a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction.
#166. To: All, Redleghunter (#165)
#167. To: GarySpFC (#156)
One of my ideas, although not advanced with supporting material (just yet) is that Jesus of Nazareth was caught up in a revolution in Judea at around the time of severe subjugation by both the Romans and Jews. The resultant events created the myths we read, irrespective of the variation of the Bible anyone reads.
#168. To: buckeroo, GarySpFc (#0)
Assuming you have a Christian Holy Bible of one flavor or another, what version do you read?
#169. To: GarySpFC (#153)
Baloney! They were Christians.
#170. To: mininggold (#169)
That's baloney as they were not all Christians, but they were definitely selling it to a Christian audience.
#171. To: GarySpFC (#166)
#172. To: A K A Stone (#170)
(Edited)
So you do acknowledge that the America is/was a Christian nation by in large.
#173. To: A K A Stone, GarySpFC (#167)
(Edited)
GarySpFC: post#156: There wasn't time for myths to develop prior to the writing of the Gospels. Furthermore, there were too many eyewitnesses still alive, and none came forth to refute the Gospel accounts.
#174. To: redleghunter (#168)
Coming in late to this thread. However, on subject below is a good summary I can across in MacDonald's Bible Commentary:
#175. To: GarySpFC, jwpegler, hondo68 (#105)
Btw, the Torah is not oral.
#176. To: buckeroo (#175)
(Edited)
the Christian NEW TESTAMENT can be said to predate the OLD TESTAMENT or were roughly produced AT NEARLY THE SAME TIME.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#177. To: buckeroo (#174)
Still what Bible do YOU read?
#178. To: hondo68 (#176)
#179. To: buckeroo (#178)
(Edited)
OK, when was the OT written?
The Old Testament Canon
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#180. To: redleghunter (#177)
The Kindle is great
#181. To: hondo68 (#179)
Looks like around the 1st century AD before
#182. To: buckeroo (#101)
#183. To: diva betsy ross (#182)
I said I can read any Bible I want to read- and it all makes perfect sense to me.
#184. To: buckeroo (#183)
(Edited)
#185. To: diva betsy ross (#184)
I started by learning the character of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
#186. To: buckeroo (#185)
(Edited)
#187. To: diva betsy ross (#186)
But they are ,three in one. Three separate purposes- one system. One God.
#188. To: buckeroo (#187)
#189. To: buckeroo (#0)
#190. To: diva betsy ross (#186)
(Edited)
"This is a very simple way of explaining of course."
#191. To: diva betsy ross (#188)
"Oh for sure- God is very complex."
#192. To: Ferret Mike (#191)
she is
#193. To: A K A Stone (#192)
#194. To: Ferret Mike (#193)
#195. To: Ferret Mike (#190)
#196. To: diva betsy ross (#195)
#197. To: Ferret Mike (#196)
I'm sure you would agree, his sense of religion does no one any good at all.
#198. To: Ferret Mike (#193)
#199. To: A K A Stone (#197)
Hey Mike. Go to HELL! You helped usher in Obama.
We will work with each other, we will work side by side,
And we'll guard each man's dignity and save each man's pride;
Yes they'll know we are Christians by our love.
#200. To: buckeroo, hondo68, GarySpFc (#180)
What do you think of hondo68's post #1? He starts off the thread with an excellent comparison between two Bible versions and and analysis. Do you think that Paul's Romans 13:1-7 letter is about being subservient to government?
#201. To: lucysmom (#199)
#202. To: buckeroo (#165)
Judas of Galilee (circa ~ 6 CE) lead a revolt against the Romans. 2000 Jews died and the rub was Jesus of Nazareth (and John the Baptist) were somehow involved with this Jewish Zealot group, hence: death to John and Jesus and the disciples, many of which were originally John the Baptist's disciples.
#203. To: buckeroo (#164)
Jesus was murdered because He claimed to be God.
#204. To: buckeroo (#171)
#205. To: A K A Stone (#201)
And when he had opened the fifth seal,........
#206. To: A K A Stone (#198)
(Edited)
#207. To: buckeroo (#108)
So, if you had a chance to view that video: it is the ORAL LAW not the Bible that establishes the Jewish traditions. Jesus was a Jew, for sure. Why would he reference a document (the Bible) that wasn't around at his time?
#208. To: buckeroo (#144)
Of course. You have actually added to the thread not denying or suggesting otherwise that the three great religions are mutually inclusive from the original Jewish documents, circa ~1250 BCE.
#209. To: buckeroo (#150)
One of my ideas, although not advanced with supporting material (just yet) is that Jesus of Nazareth was caught up in a revolution in Judea at around the time of severe subjugation by both the Romans and Jews. The resultant events created the myths we read, irrespective of the variation of the Bible anyone reads.
#210. To: GarySpFC (#209)
(Edited)
I understand as late as last year you were denying the existence of Jesus
#211. To: redleghunter (#200)
(Edited)
When it comes to tax time, yep give Caesar his due.
#212. To: NewsJunky (#158)
If that is true, how can you have non-Muslims living or even visiting Muslim nations?
#213. To: buckeroo (#210)
#214. To: GarySpFC (#202)
buckeroo: Judas of Galilee (circa ~ 6 CE) lead a revolt against the Romans. 2000 Jews died and the rub was Jesus of Nazareth (and John the Baptist) were somehow involved with this Jewish Zealot group, hence: death to John and Jesus and the disciples, many of which were originally John the Baptist's disciples.
GarySpFC: Firstly, that is total nonsense. John the Baptist and Jesus were 10 years old at most when Judas the Zealot lead his rebellion against Rome in 6 AD.Secondly, the Zealot cause of rebellion was in total conflict with Christ's non-violent and submission to ruling authorities (Rome) preaching. Sorry, but your theory is full of holes.
#215. To: buckeroo (#214)
#216. To: GarySpFC (#203)
John 8:58, 59 I AM: Jesus was not just claiming to have lived before Abraham; He was claiming eternal existence. He was claiming to be God Himself (see Ex.3:14). This time the Jewish leaders understood that Jesus was claiming to be God, so they took up stones to stone Him for blasphemy (see Lev. 24:16).
#217. To: All (#215)
#218. To: GarySpFC (#215)
Jesus and the Zealots. By S. G. F. Brandon. New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1967. xviii + 413 pp.
#219. To: buckeroo (#216)
#220. To: GarySpFC (#219)
He [Jesus] Claimed to Be God
#221. To: buckeroo (#216)
Here is the REAL STUFF, backed by a youtube movie. Jesus was denied plausible merit BECAUSE of the RULING CLASSES (Pharisees&Sadducees) in Jerusalem. You should take this following movie (which is a reenactment of KJV John 8) into context before discussing a very deep subject concerning existence with the expression of "IAM." I should say, do you want to discuss a philosophical viewpoint?
#222. To: buckeroo (#220)
#223. To: GarySpFC (#204)
buckeroo: And, what did you think about the historical perspective from Flavius Josephus that was posted on #165? Isn't it remarckable that the founder of the Zealots was also from Galilee? That they formed for active and hostile assault against the Romans and often incited riotous rebellion amongst the Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducee?
GarySpFC: And John Brown was from Kansas, and i also deplore slavery, but our methods and beliefs are very different. You are barking up the wrong tree.
#224. To: GarySpFC (#221)
"I AM" is God's name.
#225. To: GarySpFC (#222)
Have a nice evening.
#226. To: GarySpFC (#213)
(Edited)
#227. To: buckeroo (#223)
#228. To: Ferret Mike (#196)
#229. To: diva betsy ross (#228)
#230. To: Ferret Mike (#229)
#231. To: diva betsy ross (#230)
(Edited)
#232. To: buckeroo, GarySpFc, AKA Stoner (#211)
This idea is diametrically opposed to what Joesph&Mary performed with baby Jesus, scurrying off/escaping the census of Rome for later tax collections. They immigrated to Egypt, home of Osiris, not any of the Jews such as back in Babylon. In fact, the family traveled to Nazareth (Galilee) not long afterwards as a result of Herod's death. Why do you suppose they escaped vital tax audits required by the government?
#233. To: redleghunter, buckeroo (#232)
(Edited)
#234. To: diva betsy ross (#233)
red- you have such an immature understanding. You really should be careful who you shame into the area of " opinion and speculation".
#235. To: diva betsy ross (#233)
red- you have such an immature understanding. You really should be careful who you shame into the area of " opinion and speculation".
#236. To: Ferret Mike (#231)
#237. To: redleghunter (#235)
#238. To: diva betsy ross (#236)
(Edited)
#239. To: Ferret Mike (#238)
(Edited)
#240. To: diva betsy ross (#239)
it doesn't matter what anyone believes
#241. To: buckeroo (#240)
#242. To: diva betsy ross (#241)
In my experience, belief is something that I understand to be true, based upon what I have seen. I have belief in what has been proven to me.
#243. To: diva betsy ross (#237)
red- everything that happens in the Old Testament points to the New Testament- and vice versa.
#244. To: buckeroo (#242)
(Edited)
#245. To: redleghunter (#232)
Anything further [based on a Bible] would be an opinion or speculation.
#246. To: redleghunter (#243)
#247. To: diva betsy ross (#246)
Everything about Jesus was part of the plan. God is very clear about the plan
#248. To: buckeroo (#247)
#249. To: redleghunter (#243)
#250. To: diva betsy ross (#249)
I figure this stuff out on my own, in prayer and meditation- and then I go and look around in Scriptures- and before I say anything here online, I have spent some time figuring things out
Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate
#251. To: diva betsy ross (#246)
Everything about Jesus was part of the plan. God is very clear about the plan.
#252. To: buckeroo (#245)
I am not sure what you suggest is true. Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, as one example?
#253. To: diva betsy ross (#246)
sigh- red, your faith is so shallow.
#254. To: buckeroo (#247)
#255. To: diva betsy ross (#249)
oh and red- I figure this stuff out on my own, in prayer and meditation- and then I go and look around in Scriptures- and before I say anything here online, I have spent some time figuring things out... so I know what I am talking about, least anyone read me, looking for some answers.
#256. To: redleghunter, diva betsy ross (#255)
#239. To: Ferret Mike: I was in WICCA diva betsy ross posted
You advocate "meditating" on gnostic texts that both Jesus and His Apostles warned us about in the NT
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#257. To: buckeroo! Redleghunter (#240)
What is the difference between belief and faith?
#258. To: GarySpFC (#257)
#259. To: buckeroo (#257)
#260. To: buckeroo (#242)
So, Faith and Believe are close but differ
#261. To: Skip Intro (#251)
So why is Judas a bad guy? Wasn't he part of the plan?
#262. To: All (#0)
#263. To: Skip Intro (#251)
(Edited)
#264. To: diva betsy ross (#263)
Judas was not a bad man.
#265. To: hondo68 (#256)
(Edited)
#266. To: A K A Stone (#264)
#267. To: redleghunter (#253)
#268. To: GarySpFC, buckeroo (#260)
#269. To: hondo68 (#256)
#270. To: diva betsy ross (#267)
Hehe- this is an excellent lesson for this thread- and for why it is important to have an open mind, to know the character of God- and not get addicted to one translation.
#271. To: redleghunter (#270)
#272. To: diva betsy ross (#265)
Could you please show me where I said you were not a Christian?
BTW, I don't get uncomfortable talking about the gospels unless someone's trying to put a misleading or evil spin on them.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#273. To: diva betsy ross, GarySpFC, buckeroo (#268)
faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away.
#274. To: diva betsy ross (#271)
I learn such great stuff at these sites! Growing and learning. Praise God. Apparently I am just a natural born student of something called hermeneutics. :)
#275. To: hondo68 (#272)
(Edited)
#276. To: redleghunter (#273)
#277. To: redleghunter (#273)
(Edited)
#278. To: diva betsy ross (#276)
red- chatting with you gives me excellent experience speaking to someone in a lower IQ range.
#279. To: redleghunter (#278)
LOL!! Perhaps you could enlighten this caveman on how you can find Truth about God without reading and studying His revelation to man---The Bible. And remember the Gospel was clear to fishermen.
#280. To: diva betsy ross (#275)
constant stalking
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#281. To: diva betsy ross (#277)
lol... you are a cyber stalker. It is sort of funny, but it is actually quite deranged.
#282. To: diva betsy ross (#271)
(Edited)
But Praise God that I have finally figured out why you and gary and your buddies are so shallow and dry and boring and produce no fruit and receive no blessings or answered prayers.
#283. To: A K A Stone (#279)
#284. To: A K A Stone (#282)
(Edited)
#285. To: hondo68 (#280)
(Edited)
#286. To: redleghunter (#278)
#287. To: diva betsy ross, Garyspfc (#286)
Did the fishermen study the Bible? In the Scriptures there are people who did not read the Bible, who sought God and were blessed.
#288. To: redleghunter (#252)
Anything further [based on a Bible] would be an opinion or speculation.
I am not sure what you suggest is true. Have you read the Dead Sea Scrolls, as one example?
What relevance are the DSS to the subject of your questions?
There were no new "revelations" or any contradictions in [the DSS with respect to the OT].
#289. To: redleghunter (#254)
This version gets the point across in cartoon fashion:
.. explains our need for a Savior
#290. To: GarySpFC, Wood_Chopper (#257)
(Edited)
Faith and Believe are close but differ
What is the difference between belief and faith?
#291. To: diva betsy ross (#286)
lol-you make my point. Did the fishermen study the Bible? In the Scriptures there are people who did not read the Bible, who sought God and were blessed.
#292. To: buckeroo (#288)
You created an excellent dialog/understanding in post #232 but strangely concluded:
#293. To: buckeroo (#289)
That is a pretty cool graphic for quick synthesis, although it simplifies issues for me. But your following point intrigues me:
#294. To: redleghunter (#293)
If you will excuse me for a few hours, I will offer you some feedback/answers. Gotta get some Z's, these 18-20 hour days are a hoot this week. Been wrapped up in a simulation exercise.
#295. To: redleghunter (#292)
The ending in 232 was an indication there is a lot of speculation about the years of Jesus not recorded in the Gospels. I stick to the Bible.
#296. To: buckeroo (#294)
Please perform your personal and professional duties before responding to mere posts upon the Internet within a chit-chat channel
#297. To: buckeroo (#295)
It is well known that Jesus wore a beard and very long hair
#298. To: A K A Stone (#287)
#299. To: diva betsy ross (#298)
and God only saves certain people.
#300. To: A K A Stone (#299)
(Edited)
#301. To: redleghunter (#291)
#302. To: diva betsy ross, Garyspfc (#300)
New International Version
#303. To: diva betsy ross (#301)
It is hard to tell you two apart, since you work in a tag team. But anyway, you may believe that the fishermen knew the OT and were theology students, however that is not true.
#304. To: diva betsy ross (#298)
gary disagrees with me that 1) people do not find God after hearing people's testimony- so no one should give their testimony. 2) only highly educated theologians and ordained ministers should be allowed to speak, and God only saves certain people.
#305. To: GarySpFC (#304)
(Edited)
#306. To: buckeroo (#289)
That is a pretty cool graphic for quick synthesis, although it simplifies issues for me. But your following point intrigues me:
#307. To: A K A Stone (#287)
The old Testament was read by them.
#308. To: diva betsy ross (#301)
The word tells us that they were uneducated. You really need to read the Bible red, and stop taking gary's word for it.
#309. To: diva betsy ross, A K A Stone (#301)
New International Version (©1984) At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.
#310. To: redleghunter (#308)
(Edited)
#311. To: diva betsy ross (#310)
12 The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' The King of Israel!" 14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: 15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey's colt." 16 His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him. 17 Therefore the people, who were with Him when He called Lazarus out of his tomb and raised him from the dead, bore witness. 18 For this reason the people also met Him, because they heard that He had done this sign. (John chapter 12 NKJV)
#312. To: diva betsy ross, redleghunter (#301)
(Edited)
But anyway, you may believe that the fishermen knew the OT and were theology students, however that is not true.
#313. To: buckeroo (#71)
I generally read the ESV, NIV, NLT, NASB1995, and the KJV for English translations This is good news!
#314. To: diva betsy ross (#305)
#315. To: GarySpFC, buckeroo (#313)
I go to the Greek and Hebrew texts, and I check the various manuscripts if there is a problem with the texts.
#316. To: redleghunter (#315)
#317. To: GarySpFC (#314)
#318. To: diva betsy ross (#317)
#319. To: buckeroo (#289)
by NOT ringing any bells. The Jews do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah; if any group would have accepted him FIRST, it should have been these folks from Palestine, Galilee and Judea and Babylon (etc). Why do you suppose the JEWS largely discredit Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah? And don't discuss "Jews for Jesus!" that group is not representative of the Pharisees.
#320. To: diva betsy ross (#317)
#321. To: GarySpFC (#320)
(Edited)
#322. To: GarySpFC, A K A Stone, diva betsy ross (#320)
Your doctrines are heretical, clearly Gnostic, and not worth discussing.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#323. To: hondo68 (#322)
#324. To: diva betsy ross (#323)
Jesus is a heretic
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#325. To: hondo68 (#324)
(Edited)
#326. To: diva betsy ross (#325)
Since I am the one who is always talking about how much I love Jesus and the Bible- it is illogical that I would have anything to do with Satan.
#327. To: A K A Stone (#326)
#328. To: hondo68, A K A Stone (#324)
(Edited)
#329. To: All (#328)
#330. To: GarySpFC (#328)
they are denying Jesus is God, and therefore a heretic.
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#331. To: GarySpFC (#328)
(Edited)
#332. To: GarySpFC (#329)
#333. To: All (#330)
#334. To: GarySpFC (#333)
“One who refuses truth cannot be refuted or healed with truth or its prophet, reason. There is in him no sense of obligation, even to truth, and therefore no obligation to anything.” --Peter Kreeft
#335. To: diva betsy ross (#331)
#336. To: redleghunter (#335)
#337. To: GarySpFC (#333)
(Edited)
-Peter Kreeft?
#338. To: GarySpFC (#329)
(Edited)
Ancient Hebrew Word Meanings Eternity ~ olam
#339. To: diva betsy ross (#338)
#340. To: A K A Stone (#339)
(Edited)
#341. To: diva betsy ross (#338)
Your definitions are wrong and out of syncs with the character of God.
#342. To: A K A Stone (#341)
#343. To: A K A Stone (#341)
He told us that to get to the Father- go thru him. Jesus IS the Trinity. There is no other Trinity and never will be.
Answer is the Trinity exists in Jesus- where ever he is and where ever he exists. diva betsy ross posted on 2011-04-23 10:53:53 ET Reply Trace" =
#344. To: A K A Stone (#341)
#345. To: GarySpFC (#344)
(Edited)
#346. To: GarySpFC (#344)
#347. To: GarySpFC (#344)
#348. To: GarySpFC, Diva Betsy Ross (#344)
and we are told NOT to judge
#349. To: A K A Stone (#348)
(Edited)
#350. To: diva betsy ross (#349)
Who does that? Cyber stalkers do that
#351. To: diva betsy ross (#349)
#352. To: diva betsy ross (#336)
#353. To: A K A Stone (#350)
#354. To: A K A Stone (#351)
#355. To: A K A Stone (#336)
#356. To: diva betsy ross, A K A Stone (#353)
(Edited)
Ok- it's your site- whatevah. Good luck with that.
#357. To: Murron (#356)
#358. To: redleghunter (#355)
#359. To: diva betsy ross, A K A Stone, AKA Stone (#358)
And if you are a homosexual
#360. To: diva betsy ross (#336)
red- Are you and gary gay lovers? That would explain many unanswered questions, like why you rush in to defend him when he gets his backside handed to him for being evil.
#361. To: A K A Stone (#360)
(Edited)
#362. To: redleghunter (#359)
#363. To: diva betsy ross (#362)
I had a feeling you would be threatening legal action.
#364. To: redleghunter (#363)
Isaiah 59:4 ESV / 18 helpful votes
#365. To: diva betsy ross (#364)
:) That is the smart thing to say, since as you prolly found out, a lawyer would laugh at you. Slander has a definition. The law is there not for someone who insults your ego on a message board.
#366. To: diva betsy ross, redleghunter, A K A Stone (#362)
You followed me here for a reason- and now you want to cry? You have said much more outrageous things about me, and you follow me around from site to site.
What Version of the Christian Holy Bible Do You read? (#233) [Full Thread] Post Date: 2012-02-28 16:51:01 From: diva betsy ross To: redleghunter, buckeroo
#367. To: redleghunter (#365)
(Edited)
#368. To: harrowup (#366)
#369. To: diva betsy ross, redleghunter, A K A Stone (#368)
Do you think anyone believes anything you post? lol.
#370. To: harrowup (#369)
(Edited)
#371. To: harrowup (#369)
#372. To: mel (#371)
*smh*
#373. To: diva betsy ross (#370)
You really pay attention to me and keep note.
#374. To: harrowup (#373)
#375. To: diva betsy ross (#367)
#376. To: diva betsy ross (#374)
Seek God.
#377. To: diva betsy ross (#367)
Oh God red- you are a very sick man. I have no sorrow, for what I said, because I do believe that you and gary are gay lovers and you have followed me here to avenge your lover,
#378. To: A K A Stone (#377)
(Edited)
#379. To: diva betsy ross, DRAMA QUEEN (#357)
"Who are you? When did I pick you up?"
#380. To: diva betsy ross (#378)
#381. To: Murron (#379)
(Edited)
#382. To: A K A Stone, Murron (#0)
(Edited)
#383. To: GarySpFC (#380)
#384. To: harrowup (#382)
Stone, cleanup in Aisle 381 please.
#385. To: diva betsy ross, A K A Stone, harrowup, ALL (#381)
"Unless you really are laine and I offended your gay lover by speaking the truth.....If you are someone's gay lover-..."
#386. To: Murron (#385)
#387. To: diva betsy ross, Murron, Mel, redleghunter, A K A Stone, GarySpFC, all (#381)
murron- you have stalked me all over the place making all sorts of claims and calling names and ganging up with other people and spreading gossip- for years and I never even post to you.
2009-12-15 22:22:21 From: diva betsy ross To: Murron
2009-12-16 15:53:40 From: Murron To: war, diva betsy ross, mel, AKA Stone
#388. To: diva betsy ross (#386)
You have not changed in the years you have been following me around
#389. To: A K A Stone (#388)
#390. To: harrowup (#387)
#391. To: harrowup (#387)
#392. To: mel (#391)
Oh wow. That was 2009. lol
#393. To: mininggold (#392)
#394. To: mel (#393)
(Edited)
#395. To: Ferret Mike (#394)
People need to get a life rather than spend so much time trying to play Detective Columbo.
#396. To: Ferret Mike (#394)
#397. To: mel (#396)
#398. To: mel (#393)
No one is stalking anyone. You all post in the same forums. People are going to reply to the posts. I'm pretty sure you and Lucysmom are two different people just like me and all the people I'm claimed to be are different people. Spend too much time in these joints, and paranoia creeps up on you. (Not you, but you get my drift, I'm sure.)
#399. To: mininggold (#398)
LOL Harrowup says that I post here at my own peril. Your friend is quite funny, I think you needed to ping him to your 'assessment'.
#400. To: mininggold (#398)
#401. To: mel (#399)
If he's stalking you, then I need not ping him. lol
#402. To: mininggold (#401)
#403. To: diva betsy ross (#389)
If you enjoy a forum where people thread stalk each other bringing up all sorts of nonsense-
#404. To: A K A Stone (#403)
"Don't piss the host off by calling him nasty names."
#405. To: Ferret Mike (#404)
You mean the host that quotes Exodus about how people of a religion he detests should not be suffered to live. you mean that one?
#406. To: A K A Stone (#405)
#407. To: A K A Stone (#403)
(Edited)
What is thread stalking? People reply to posts they are interested in.
#408. To: Ferret Mike (#406)
Do you square or trim your beard, eat shellfish or do any of those spoken against as bad by various people who wrote that religious tome? There are plenty of old testament passages that are wacko.
#409. To: GarySpFC (#408)
#410. To: Ferret Mike (#409)
#411. To: Ferret Mike (#409)
I have zero use for Christianity, and no belief in it in the slightest bit. I never have, and that sort of thing will never happen.
#412. To: A K A Stone (#411)
"I pity you fool."
#413. To: GarySpFC (#410)
Your blood is on your head."
#414. To: Ferret Mike (#413)
#415. To: Don (#414)
#416. To: GarySpFC (#415)
#417. To: Don (#414)
#418. To: Ferret Mike (#417)
#419. To: Ferret Mike (#417)
he has to grow up and learn to respect others before that sort of discussion is remotely possible
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#420. To: Ferret Mike (#417)
"Stone has been a poison pill dampening that aspect of religious discussion. He has harassed me about my strong religious beliefs since before he had a forum. Any place like this one where he is the moderator is going to be a place of hatred and loathing of anyone not Christian or Jewish. I would love to answer you; but not in this climate. he has to grow up and learn to respect others before that sort of discussion is remotely possible at flamerland."
#421. To: A K A Stone (#418)
You're ashamed of your "faith". Good.
#422. To: A K A Stone (#418)
You're ashamed of your "faith". Good.
#423. To: Murron (#420)
#424. To: hondo68 (#419)
#425. To: mininggold (#421)
"Too bad more Christians don't practice their 'faith'."
#426. To: A K A Stone (#418)
#427. To: Ferret Mike (#426)
#428. To: Ferret Mike (#422)
Fuck off. I am disgusted by your childish and intolerant nature.
#429. To: Ferret Mike (#426)
You are no one I feel comfortable talking to on many things, not just my faith.
#430. To: Ferret Mike (#425)
Stone is very self centered and malicious, and he uses his faith to bait others with.
#431. To: Ferret Mike (#424)
I am supposed to discuss something that causes the childish and immature forum moderator to whine because everyone is not as toxic in their religion as him and that's a cop out?
#432. To: A K A Stone (#430)
You should consider leaving this land, it isn't for you and your satanists.
#433. To: A K A Stone (#430)
#434. To: A K A Stone (#411)
Like the word says willingly ignorant. We all choose where we go in the afterlife. You have willingly chose the hot place.
#435. To: Ferret Mike (#424)
#436. To: redleghunter (#435)
#437. To: Ferret Mike (#436)
This is another reason I don't care for the jerk owning this forum. I give my opinion on this topic, and he capriciously and maliciously claims I believe the opposite.
#438. To: A K A Stone (#437)
(Edited)
#439. To: Ferret Mike (#438)
(Edited)
"I am anti-abortion. ..Face it Stonie, you can't stand having people support an end to abortion who once believed in it...
#440. To: Murron (#439)
#441. To: Ferret Mike (#436)
I am against abortion. Generally my faith is like the Christian one; some support a woman's choice to do so, some don't.
#442. To: Ferret Mike, A K A Stone (#440)
"And you will not grasp the concept I explain that has always been a component in well organized and run activism."
#443. To: Murron, cornflakefag (#442)
I have your number, and you know it, and you hate me for it!
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#444. To: hondo68, murron (#443)
#445. To: Murron (#442)
"You use people, you lie to them, and about them, you'll say anything to get them to let their guard down, you're a snake in the grass...."
#446. To: Rudgear (#444)
#447. To: redleghunter (#441)
#448. To: Ferret Mike (#447)
The fight to end abortion must be a legal one that does not undermine our system of governance, and the manner in which we enforce and prosecute crime.
#449. To: Murron, Ferret Mike, A K A Stone (#442)
What you mean, you bloviating narcissist pig, is that I, like a few others, have your act down pat, we don't fall for your sugar coated politically correct bull shit, you never say anything without an ulterior motive.
You're a small minded person who has high ideas about himself, yet you've never created anything of importance yourself...
but you have proven yourself good at going from forum to forum, under anonymous psuedos, attempting to round up other's who will join you in the fun, attempting to destroy what another person has built up. You use people, you lie to them, and about them, you'll say anything to get them to let their guard down, you're a snake in the grass....
loonymom, ming, e-type jackoff, goober56, wreck, cal-CON, rabid dog, dummy DwarF, biff, harrowup the communist, and meguro. You're on the "a waste of human flesh" list. Brian S[ocialist], you're a propagandist moron. ALL of you can piss off.
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