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Title: What Version of the Christian Holy Bible Do You read?
Source:
LF
URL Source: http://hereandnow
Published: Feb 18, 2012
Author: buckeroo
Post Date: 2012-02-18 17:52:56 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 289612
Comments: 449
Assuming you have a Christian Holy Bible of one flavor or another, what version do you read? As several examples, here are several variations: the New King James Version, New Living Translation, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version and so forth. Post your comment on this thread.
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 360.
#1. To: buckeroo, *Jack-Booted Thugs* (#0)
(Edited)
Romans 13 is probably the most devastating thing to a Christian in the hands of the ungodly. It sounds so convincing to obey those who appear to be in power. For too long, secular governments have used Romans 13 as a club to beat Christians into obedience to them. Just because a group maintains power through their guns and jails, does not mean God put them there. God said there are powers not ordained by Him at Hosea 8:4, "They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not." God didn't put them in power over the righteous. That's Satan's idea. The righteous don't need worldly, filthy authorities, which are no authorities at all. Do you think that they can instruct the righteous? They themselves steal. They themselves are perverts. And they presume to instruct the righteous? I don't think so. The NIV is revisionist history at it's worst, written by satist NWO neocon libtards. The following chart demonstrates just how far they strayed... Warning: Beware of the Living Bible and the Good News Bible. They are merely Bible paraphrases, not translations. The wording is not true to the original Hebrew and Greek. The scriptures are perverted to support secular Christianity. Romans 13:1-7 King James Bible Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Living Bible Obey the government, for God is the one who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. 2 So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow. 3 For the policeman does not frighten people who are doing right; but those doing evil will always fear him. So if you don't want to be afraid, keep the laws and you will get along well. 4 The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose. 6 Pay your taxes too, for these same two reasons. For government workers need to be paid so that they can keep on doing God's work, serving you. 7 Pay everyone whatever he ought to have: pay your taxes and import duties gladly, obey those over you, and give honor and respect to all those to whom it is due.
Using your comparison chart in your first post between the King James Version (KJV) and the Living Bible (LB), I want you to know that the New King James Version (NKJV) (note: NOT the KJV as in your chart) has the same meaning as the Living Bible (LB). Also, this same idea contained in your chart between Living Bible (LB) King James (KJV) version seems perpetuated all over the many variations that exist. I do not believe for a moment that the Bible instructs us, "So those who refuse to obey the laws of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow" (LB) or "The policeman is sent by God to help you. But if you are doing something wrong, of course you should be afraid, for he will have you punished. He is sent by God for that very purpose." (LB) This is total poppycock for the lame brain creating, dull mass lunatics (whom can't think for themselves) submitting to a fuckin' dictator. I checked the Coptic Church, too. They are the oldest group of "Christians" around even foreshadowing the Catholic Church by several hundreds of years and they use the English translation of the NKJV! Even the Arabic translation (SJV) converts to "submission unto the the Sultans." I don't believe many people understand the intent of Jesus Christ at all. He was a REBEL in his day, that is the reason for his crucifixion.
submission unto the the Sultans. Like the gov the Coptics try their best to rip you off. The ones running the liquor store are known far and wide for trying to short change their customers. Maybe they give the money to Sultan Oilbombers reelection campaign?
The Coptics are pretty much centralized in Egypt and have been as much or more victimized through time as any of the Jews. Their first original writings came from Mark (one of the apostles of Christ) in Alexandria. Still, they use the NKJV, as well which is curious to me.
The ones I mentioned (two brothers) are immigrants from Iran.
I was sure there was some subtle humour intended but I am studying the many variations of the Christian Bible right now. I am exceptionally curious about how the passage of Romans 13 has been interpreted in all these variations of English translation. Jesus of Nazareth was a REBEL not some cheap submissive, humble servant of the government that is represented in all these English Bible translations.
Kings and even religious leaders try to spin to bible and tell us they we have to kiss their asses. Revolutionary preachers taught that "resistance to tyranny is obedience to God". They considered King George to be a false god (idol). I'm taking a wild ass guess that Oilbomber and Big Sis are false gods too! No wonder I got banned twice from that statist NWO bushbot site.
Your original link, The American Revolution - How Preachers Incited Revolution by Harry S. Stout is another resource for my repertoire of understanding how and why anyone would BELIEVE some of these English translations of the Christian Holy Bible as taught these days in the churches across the USA. And we wonder HOW America failed? The entire American nation has been blinded into becoming a herd of sheep caged by ravenous wolves ready to strike at any moment. And, at the top of the list are the fucking ministers, pastors, priests and other BS artists that practice their Sunday SATANIC message of BS.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/understanding Try to keep the commandments of Jesus, and then you will get the understanding that you will never find, otherwise. Faith comes before knowledge. Job 28:28 And he said to man,’Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom, and to turn away from evil is understanding.’” That is awesome if you want to know Jesus. Turn from all evil, invite Him into your life-open your heart for the revolution of love that he will show you- and pray to God for forgiveness of past sin. THEN you will know which Bible is right. Until you do those things, you will be chasing your tail, and nothing will make sense. Jesus was NOT a rebel against the government. He was a rebel against darkness, illness and hatred. And God bless you and make His light to shine on your life.
Really? But before going too far... stick with hondo's post#1 Romans 13 1-7 post. USE POST #1 FOR THE REST OF YOUR DISCUSSION. Also, show how some of these interpretations of Romans 13 provide that GOVERNMENT is TO BE OBEYED as some squirming maggot to be squished by some black booted thug.
buck- if you sincerely and honestly want to understand Jesus, then I pray blessings all over you and want to encourage you. There is no greater pursuit or use of your time. Something you really need to get your head around is the character of Jesus, so you can understand the Scriptures. When you understand the character of Jesus, you will be able to pick up any Bible, and understand the Word of God. Until you surrender to God, and ask for Jesus- and seek salvation, the Bible is not going to make any sense to you. You have no foundation, without your cornerstone. Jesus saves those who seek Him. Jesus, himself said that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law. Jesus himself said, render to Caesar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's. Jesus himself told us to follow laws and commandments. Jesus himself paid the temple tax that was required. Jesus told his followers to observe the laws. Jesus was a revolutionary- because He was talking about love and salvation and repentance from sin. No one else was talking about that stuff. He was not talking about revolution over the government. There is a very good reason for that and it is much deeper than you understanding of one simple translation of Romans 13. You have to go so much deeper. Pray for salvation first- before going any further, if your are serious. And of course, God bless your period of seeking. If you are playing games, turn back now- because you would be mocking God, and that is so unwise.
DBR - Let me caution you about something ... this is NOT a thread about your personal salvation and all that muck to get all emotional for my soul because some snake-handler told you to "walk on the waters and spread the word" as Jesus did. I am a deist. I am so convinced that the world is full of shit because people like you believe in some STUPID TRINITY and all that cockamamie, I don't want to hear about it. Well, unless YOU CAN PROVE YOUR BELIEF. I am interested in what version of the BIBLE you read, that is ALL, hence the title of this thread. If you provide convincing arguments about the reasons for your choice, fine; I shall research that, too. One person already did so and it was the Geneva Bible which is similar to the KJV. So, what version of the Bible do you read?
pft! Your research on the Bible? lol.... Yeah- that is something smart for people to consider.. ok buck. Follow your free will. Whatever.
I guess YOU do. Still what version of the Christian Bible so you read?
I read them all. Any one that I want to read. I also listen to people from all different denominations- go to temple on occasion, observe Jewish holy days- pray to keep all of the commandments- and read the Gnostic gospels. I also pray and ask for revelation. I am very confident that there is nothing that you could explain to me. :) You are not going to find understanding in any one single translation. It is not there. God is love and is spirit. The great spirit in the sky, is the Holy Spirit. People have understood this for thousands of years- and somehow it has totally evaded you. That is a heart matter. THE one and only way to understand the ministry of Jesus- and to know God, is to be reborn with the Holy Spirit. that means that you allow your spirit to be alive. What deity of yours is going to do that for you? What deity of yours has shown you the way? I say none have. Jesus did tho- and that is historical not just spiritual. Since that is not something you are interested in understanding- your pursuit of knowledge of the Bible- is hopeless, because all you are going to learn is the ways of man and religion. Good luck with that. Man is a mess. Jesus is the hope of the entire world. Best wishes tho- have fun.
I see .... what does the following passage mean: Certainly, since you read all of them [Bibles] you can find a moment to explain this single passage? I haven't suggested that I WOULD explain anything. Far from it, I have a relatively simple question and to this moment in the thread, you have yet to answer it. GREAT!!! So help me out on that one example I have cited above.
Honestly... I have to spend some more time trying to figure out why you don't see the common threads, that connect all of those interpretations. I am speechless that you don't see it. I'll have to figure you out later, buck. Lent is here. 40 days. See you after Easter. bye.
Me to. Here is the KJV again: Matthew 11:12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. How did Kingdom of Heaven "suffer" violence? Seems pretty fishy to me. Yeah ... I scratch my head on this one. Why "figure" me out? Why not just interpret the passage? WoW ... are leaving me hanging here?
buck- honestly- I really am observing Lent, and praying and fasting and that has been a great experience, but I don't want to leave you hanging, and I apologize if that answer sounded curt. I didn't mean for it to sound negative. I honestly want to help you understand. BUT.. You have burned me in the past, and I really do not want to waste valuable energy arguing with you, or playing cyber games. If you are sincere about seeking this knowledge, I can think of nothing more valuable to do- right now- than hang out with you and discuss your questions. I want you to be honest, are you being authentic here? The message of all of those verses is the same. The Kingdom of Haven suffered violence when He was beaten to a bloody pulp, mocked and humiliated- and hung on a cross to be a curse, to absorb the wrath of God, to fulfill the law of atonement for sin- for every person on Earth. The violent take the Earth by force- and God sends us a savior- that whoever shall believe in Him shall be set free. God in not violent. He does not take the Earth by force. Each person has free will. Those verses are also to set the stage that Jesus knew that he would suffer violence- and he knew he was not going to bring an overthrowing of the violence. Jesus knew the violence of man was not going to stop- but that he was still willing to die- to make the statement that HE was the way to the Father and to Heaven. It leaves us a working legacy. That verse teaches us about the character of Jesus. Here is a man who knew exactly what violence he was going to face- and he faced. WHY would he do that? He did it because he is who he says he is- and.. Jesus showed us how to live in peaceful resistance ,to the violence of the world. The Bible speaks of the past, present and future at the same time. Just like there is the Trinity. To someone who does not understand the supernatural existence of God- these things make no sense at all. To gain understanding of anything in the Bible- you MUST first accept that God's ways are not man's ways. So listen- honestly- I want to take this time for my spiritual retreat- but I will respectfully address any sincere questions you have. Please don't play games. If you have an honest question, I will answer honestly and kindly, to the best of my ability. Just because it is the internet and we don't know each other- doesn't mean it is cool to waste each other's time. Ok?
Show me, in the canons of the Holy Bible where there is a reference to a "trinity." Thank you.
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ. Ask a Catholic. I don't beleive in most things Catholics believe in - you would have to ask a Catholic. The power of God is within us, when we accept the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the kingdom of Heaven (aka -Kingdom of God).. (again, see the theme from the other verses?) Jesus lives in the faithful, by the indwelling - Holy Spirit. Have a good weekend. God bless you, buck. Hope that is helpful.
This thread is not designed to dispel your personal beliefs or religion, you are free to be what-ever-you-want. Have you read Flavius Josephus?
Buck- what annoys me about you, the very most is that you ask personal questions and then you rebuke the answer. It totally annoys me. It is so rude. THAT is why humans need a savior, to learn to be kind to one another. Anyway- yes I have read. I tell you my personal faith, because you seem to be ignorant to the fact that not everyone reads the cannon, which is what YOU asked about. People who call themselves Christians do not all have faith in the same things. THAT fact speaks directly to the reason there are different translations and interpretations. Jesus warned us about men and power trips and their religion. He told us to rebel against religion. You talk about a rebel.. he was a rebel against religion. Read the Bible. I am telling you who I am, so you can start to understand the foundation of what I am sharing with you. For example, gary and I do not have faith in the same things at all. His brand of christian and mine are not the same. I look at gary's behavior and I do not see Jesus. THAT is all I need to know. I don't think the source of his religion and my faith is the same, as a matter of fact. He and I do not operate the same, read the same things in the Scriptural- or have the same understanding of God. SO- you are going to get two very different explanations of Scripture from the two of us. You should understand that every person who you seek answers from is going to put our experiences into our understanding. My experiences with Jesus are personal- profound, radical, healing and audacious. I had a radical transformation and walk in great blessings and good health. That is what I bring to the table. Don't want to know about that? Then stop asking me. And yes, history is very important and sound theology is very , very important- but the Bible says that all understanding starts with the fear of the lord- and is given to us by the Holy Spirit. Gary has neither. Gary is all about religion- nothing spiritual or supernatural. There are people, such as myself, who believe God is spirit and supernatural. KNOW the difference and you will gain understanding of why there are so many interpretations. Want to know WHO is the closest to Holy and accurate- then look at the person's life and the blessings - peace and good health of the person. THAT is called the fruit. Matt 7:16 You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Like there is proof in the pudding.... well, there is proof in the fruit. So- know WHO you are talking to, and what they believe- while you seek. In fact, want to get directly to the heart of WHO is God, and what are HIS ways? Stop reading everyone's opinions and get on your knees and pray. You have a brain and a heart. Open them to God, and He will answer you. God bless you buck. This is a great season to be seeking. I pray you find all your answers. :) Blessed be the name of the Lord, Jesus.
I am not interested in your personal faith. If you are annoyed, it is because of THAT fact. I am interested in WHAT VERSION OF THE BIBLE YOU READ. You don't seem to have a handy Bible available. Why?
Ok- so you are just playing games. I told you- I read any of them I want to read. I answered that question - you asked more. I answered- you spit. I wanted to be open and honest- you bark. Typical buck. There is no transformation here. I thought so, but I wanted to experiment with what would happen if turned around and authentically answered your questions from a human place. So I did that ,and you play games. For anyone reading that is why we need to ask God to transform us into the beings He would like us to be. The world is full of ego driven- selfish people, who are very abusive to our spirits. Someone has to pay for that sin. Someone always does- your lover, wife, children, friends, co-workers... anyone who is around you, buck- pays for your ego. If you are smart- you seek Jesus and accept His gift of debt free peace. OR- you can play games with theologians, who have no fruit in their lives- and pretend along with them that you are trying to understand. OR you are looking for comfort in someone's words that you don't need God- because their ideas are nuts. God isn't fooled. Play your games. Pay the consequences. I am so thankful for an awesome God who blesses me, and gives me all understanding. Anyone else reading- this is for you- not buck-if you want the answers and blessings, they are for YOU too. Get into any Bible, and when you have a question, seek God- by praying - and asking for understanding. God will show up. The love, joy,peace, good fortune, good health, relationships, adventure and daily blessings are for anyone. THAT is the gospel. You do have to give up sin- and ego, and chaos and illness - however. The only thing I have that is different from those who attack me- is that I have a fear of Lord, I love Jesus will all my heart-mind and soul and I have surrendered a broken life of pain and abuse. I get attacked by people who are addicted to their illness and sin. Don't let anyone tell you that THIS peaceful life isn't for you- or you have to have some lofty knowledge of history.. or you have to recite some list of prayers in a perfect way. Those are lies. The Lord transformed my life- and restored my joy, and made every single ache and pain of life - so beautiful. Whoever you are who is following along- It is for you as well. Start in the gospel of John and keep reading. Or start anywhere. If you want a transformation in your life- you have to change the way you think. God bless you all. Peace.
No you didn't. You said, "read ALL of them." That infers you have some 100+ Bibles in front of you at all times which is absurd.
Oh God bless you buck. You are stuck. You are in a box. You only understand what the eyes of your flesh tell you is true. You only have faith in humans. If I have an internet connection I have access to every bible and all the gospels and every way of thinking- at my fingertips. So it is more ridiculousness that you are chatting with me online- and do not make the connection that I can look up anything I want to look up- in .2 seconds. I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions. Pay attention, or the world is going to pass you by- and you will never understand anything. You are lead by people who tell you what you want to hear, because it soothes your ego. Jesus was a rebel because He is telling you not to be held in bondage to other people's ideas. You gotta get out of your ego- and open your heart and your mind- and be transformed by the renewal of your mind. :) Romans 12:2 Here is a whole bunch of translations- read them all- google more if you want. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A2&version=NIV You do not need anyone else, other than God, to tell you which one of these is the right one. That is true for anyone. :) Best wishes- I am going to back to observing a peaceful Lent, learning the ways of my Lord. I pray you are blessed with understanding and joy in the Lord, today. I thank you for this time, because it is actually valuable to me, in understanding human nature. So, while it is right in line with my Lent observation- I am not going to get back here for awhile again.
Have you read and understood the thread banner? It poses a simple question. Take a peek at it before posting again on this thread. If you don't want to answer the simple question posted at the top of the thread, just say so and move on or don't post at all. If you do want to answer the question, please be factual instead of elusive to the question. You do not read 100+ Bibles at any one time despite that which you claim.
Oh, guess that was at the other site. ;) lol.. Anyway- I never said I have read 100 plus Bibles. I said I can read any Bible I want to read- and it all makes perfect sense to me. I can google any Bible I want to- and I do. For the record, the Bible that I took with me to church today is a New Revised Standard Version. I like to cross reference with other Bibles, at times, because I talk with people (mostly pastors) about lots of Old Testament theology. You seem to be fascinated with the idea that Jesus was a rebel. Yes- of course he was. Hey- at least we are getting somewhere- last year you told me Jesus didn't exist- and I told you he was a brilliant rebel, who I thought you would be interested in learning about! :) So YAY! We are making some progress.... awesome. As long as you are reading the word- I think we are doing pretty well, in progression here. If you are interested in the Jewish Jesus- I think that is brilliant. For me, Jesus makes a great deal more sense when we understand the Jewish Jesus. It is a great time of the year to make sense of that,in your studies. God bless you and best wishes.
How?
As I have explained many times before- by way of the Holy Spirit. I have given my life as a living sacrifice to the Lord, giving up addictions and sinful behavior (including a suicide attempt). I started by learning the character of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I follow the commandments- which is actually really easy to do. I have been baptized in Water and in the Spirit. All of these things came about by my faith. My faith started with a fear of the Lord. My fear of the Lord started with knowing that there was more to this world than what meets the eye. I am now at the point in my journey- after years of work- that I can write down a question and get an answer and a revelation within a few moments. I like to listen to the Bible, sometimes. Read from all different translations. I was listening in Exodus the other day- and I had a need to understand Moses and his motivation, and how Moses did not get frustrated with those people-and I was led, to great understanding- backed up with verses and connections to other parts of the Bible. I pray and ask to be shown things in Scripture. I like it to be sound theology, so that is what I ask for and that is what I get. And I am telling you- that YOU have the same ability I do. I am not standing here as a Bible student- but as a person who was so broken and busted up- that I could barely crawl to church at one point in my life- who has great blessings and deep understanding of the world- all from one simple thing.... trust in Jesus. You want all your questions answered? Ask Jesus yourself. Do not go to anyone else. Look up a sinners prayer- ask Jesus into your life- accept that He died for you- and then simply follow. Jesus was a rebel who can rock your world, better than anything else you are going to find under the sun. Want to know why he was a rebel? Because it is a broken , messed up world and he came to kick it's butt. :) So- it all makes perfect sense to me, because I have the right tool for the job.
You don't believe in a God as in a monotheistic concept. You believe in a "trinity of GODS" as in a polytheistic concept. Why?
I believe in one God- in three *forms of communication*. Everyone , who is honest, struggles with this concept and how to explain it. God is supernatural, so it is very difficult to put into words- but people try and of course no two explanations are the same. Let me try to explain this, from my POV: There is one God. Jesus is a human- who walked the Earth showing us God's ways. The Holy Spirit is the helper, that Jesus left for us when he departed. This is a very simple way of explaining of course. But they are ,three in one. Three separate purposes- one system. One God. I used to be fascinated with Greek mythology. That is more than one God. :)
Very very simplified. I was raised in the Catholic Church and I learned the Trinity defines God as three distinct persons. However, the are co-existent and co-equal in unity. You have 'the Father' who creates, 'the Son' who is "only begotten;" meaning he is of nature or basically Son of God in a very different sense from that in which men are said to be made by him children of God, and the 'Holy Spirit' which preceeds. While they are distinct from one another in the functions they preform as the unique individuals they are, they are one and the same in all else. That is how I was made to understand this concept to be.
Mike- I am in the process of observing Lent, and this coming weekend I am going to the mountains- so I may not be on for awhile, but I wanted to answer this to you. I beleive that you are a spiritual person. Most people into white magic are spiritual beings looking for something that makes sense to their spirit. It is my belief and understanding and experience that the Roman Catholic church does more to harm a person's spirit than it does to free that beautiful spirit. I try not to say negative things about people's religion, BUT- the Roman catholic church is a sore point for me. If you want to talk about that POV , at a latter date- I am glad to. But please- please - please understand this- Jesus loves women. He loves women so much that He showed himself to a woman, first- when He rose. God loves women. Your spirit is not out of the realm with what Jesus was talking about, and with what resonates with your heart. Just food for thought, so don't get upset. and I didn't want you to think I just cruised off- but this is an important and introspective time for me in my faith. I don't want to be online too much in the next few weeks- and miss something. Best wishes. :) And talk soon?
best wishes to you to, and by all means help talk some sense into my immature and anger oriented friend here fixated on shit covered apple if you would. If you could make him less arrogant and revengeful, we all would be grateful ;-D I'm sure you would agree, his sense of religion does no one any good at all.
Mike- we are all works in progress. We all fall short, we all make mistakes. Anger IS a sin, indeed and something I have had to work VERY hard at handing over to Jesus. I have gotten very good at handing it over and being peaceful- BUT it was a long journey. The thing about Jesus, that is different than your goddess, and I think you will appreciate is that Jesus trains us up in the way we should go. He accepts us and loves us- but does correct us. A follower of Jesus will be a new person... and better... along with time. There is always hope, for a new day, for an honest follower. In this case I would pray that all posters on this site would treat each other with more kindness today- and that there would be no stalking, no harassment and no ill intent toward each other. God loves us all- but He can only offer hope to those of us who are willing to follow Him. On a side note- I understand your goddess. I am offering you that if you would take a very deep look at your goddess- you will find that she is a mirror image of the true Jesus. I offer that to you- not to upset you OR to hurt you, but to show you love. If you looked at the real Jesus, I beleive you would fall in love. :) Have a peaceful day. Be the change you want to see in the world. (We all have to do that) :) Best wishes.
I'm glad your religion give you as much as mine gives me. Thanks for sharing. ;-)
:)ok- ok... I am not going to give up on you. JUST FOR TODAY, I am going to have to stop posting- at just reminding you I don't have a religion. The difference between your religion and my faith in Jesus, is this for example: Yesterday, while in prayer and meditation- I have been shown an area of sin in my life- that is preventing me from getting to where I want to be. So I have to go and work that out and pray and surrender, and allow God to have sovereignty in my life. I consider myself a bond-servant/slave of Jesus. So- that relationship is the process of my personal peace. I beleive I am greatly rewarded for such faith. And it always leads to the most amazing blessings and peace. I know how to cast spells- and I could cast a spell and change things and people- OR I could take my correction, admitting that I need to come into correction, and allow myself to me more like the image of my Lord. That is the pursuit of a follower of Christ. I give those decisions and power to the Lord. I ask for what I want, if it is His will, He will give it to me. The Lord gives me everything I desire- that is good and right for me. AND He has the power to bless me, beyond my imaginings! THAT is a difference as well. In WICCA you are limited by your imagination. God's ways are so much more profound than what we can understand. He blesses us in ways we didn't think possible. The source of peace is different in your religion and in my faith, and someday I hope that you will see that there is a greater source, than your goddess. I hear you speaking from your spirit. :) I understand. Until I have the opportunity to post more at length- I hope you have a very good day. :)
I like you Betsy, but I have posted since 1995, and have no difficulty turning a pitch immediately into scroll by. You shouldn't waste your time giving one if I already said no thanks. I doubt Jesus even existed, frankly, which doesn't increase my interest in reading further about this possible person at this time. But thanks for sharing.
You should know-buck told me the same thing once... a long time ago. :) Ok then. Peace.
I never have been a Christian. From my earliest age I felt frustrated and trapped when I had my parent or others try to use the minor leverage against me. I was estatic to be freed from the oppression of attempts to try to talk me into that faith. I would mention to that Stone showing demonstrably that someone who professes to be Christian can act like a prick and insufferable bastard also shows me it is just a faith meant to control people and manage societies; not a road to enlightenment. As for Buck, people often return if they were a faith, I never believed. At 57 when I am extremely satisfied with my faith; so don't hold your breath. ;-)
Rebellion is human nature. I completely understand, but Mike at the end of the day- it doesn't matter what anyone believes. It only matters what is the truth. You know the truth is that the world, and people, can not be easily explained in a neat sentence. We are all seeking some truth. I happen to have a unique POV, as I was in WICCA for a short time, and I wanted to shed some light for you. You won't find many Christians who will admit they were in WICCA, so I thought I would say, Hey. You say you don't want that- so ok. But now I have to respond to this: (which I don't mind- but don't get mad at me for doing so--ok?) Don't judge Jesus on the actions of me- or Stone- or anyone else, because we are not Jesus. I 100% agree with you that religion is meant as a way of controlling people ad societies. That is why I do not have a religion. You have a religion. I do not. I wish for you peace and freedom and joy. I am not trying to corner you in. I am trying to show you gate to breath taking freedom for your soul. Oh and I never- ever- ever-ever - ever give up hope on anyone! :)
What is the difference between belief and faith?
That is a very good question. For some people, there is no difference. In my experience, belief is something that I understand to be true, based upon what I have seen. I have belief in what has been proven to me. Faith is me trusting in something I do not see ,and can not prove. I can not prove God to you. I can share my faith in God, and explain to you why I believe in God's word.
Faith is me trusting in something I do not see ,and can not prove. So, you see an obvious difference between objective FACT and faith. Don't you have any objective facts to support your faith?
"The distinctive feature of faith, in contrast with mere belief, is the element in it of will to action. Belief is an act of the intellect, and faith has been described as “an act of the intellect commanded by the will.” But faith is more than an act of the intellect, and the will does more than command. Faith is not merely the assent that something is true, it is our readiness to act on what we believe true. Faith is will lured by value into action. Faith is decision (1955, p. 74). See Samuel Thompson’s, A Modern Philosophy of Religion, 1955, p. 44 for this kind of reasoning. The clearest example of both elements of faith in the same context is Hebrews 11. Verse 6 says, “he that cometh to God must believe that he is...” (emp. added). Beginning with verse 7, the writer observed that a number of notable Old Testament characters trusted in that about which they believed. They acted on their belief. Note the words indicating action—e.g., “prepared” (vs. 7) and “obeyed” (vs. 8). Buck, you asked the wrong person that question. Proof is subjective, but evidence is objective. The Christian faith is built on Historical evidence which is objective. You have to decide if the evidence rises to the level of proof.
This is where gary is an expert at killing the gospel of Jesus Christ. He insists that everyone has to come to the gate of God's paradise- by accepting his "facts". Only his "facts" do not exist and he exhausts and confuses people. Just as Satan had hoped for. Buck- faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away. Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God. gary likes to place heavy burdens and yokes on people, so that they are in bondage and can not possibly find God. That is a heart issue and people who call themselves Christians do it all of the time, and give us all a bad name. God can not be proved by any human alive- God can only be proved to you, by God. But he isn't going to force himself on you. You have to invite him into your heart. THAT is all faith amounts to. It starts with accepting Jesus died for our sins and asking Him into our lives to reveal His truth to us- and it is just as simple as that. ANYONE can do it. Anyone. No matter what they have done in their past or what they understand. People who are brain damaged can have faith- there is nothing to understand or prove. :) You can chase your tail for years trying to figure out what gary is talking about- and wondering where his fruit and blessings are- OR you could simply go sit down and have a talk with God. It is your birthright to go directly to the source with these questions. You have been given the right- and you are worthy of having fellowship with Jesus. I say- go do that- and don't listen to anyone. Best wishes.
No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God. Diva this has to be the most revealing post from you. Here are your words: "faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away." DBR Really? Fact hundreds of people witnessed the Risen Christ: 1 Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.(NKJV) How is that for a fact? Your words again: "No one needs to understand or accept the Bible, to seek God. Faith comes from wanting to know the truth and seeking God." DBR I don't know what "god" you are seeking, but the Bible IS God's Written Word, His Truth. So if you disregard the Bible, you are preaching a different gospel than delivered by Jesus Christ and His Apostles. So no facts, no Bible=spiritism
red- chatting with you gives me excellent experience speaking to someone in a lower IQ range. I find it frustrating, but I know I have to learn how you people problem solve, so thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate your time and feedback.
I find it frustrating, but I know I have to learn how you people problem solve, so thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate your time and feedback. LOL!! Perhaps you could enlighten this caveman on how you can find Truth about God without reading and studying His revelation to man---The Bible. And remember the Gospel was clear to fishermen.
lol-you make my point. Did the fishermen study the Bible? In the Scriptures there are people who did not read the Bible, who sought God and were blessed. Cutting and pasting a post, from LP, out of context is all you have red? And then you use to make my own point back to me?? lol.. falls down laughing. You are hilarious. On the topic of theology. One does not need to be an expert on the Bible, to seek God. Altho I love the Bible and I am the one in fact, who actually reads it (because up thread you admit you have not even read the Old Testament).... It is not something that is necessary in seeking God. A prostitute and a tax collector will get into Heaven before a religious man. SO says the Lord. Matthew 21:31 Don't be mad a me- I didn't write it.
The old Testament was read by them. Someone can get saved by hearing the word of God without a Bible. But if you want to grow you will need to read the Bible and apply it to your life. So maybe you are both right to a degree.
actually stone, the word itself tells us that the disciples did not know about the prophecies, and were uneducated. Acts 4:13 13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus The only POV I ever give is that God is gracious and shows mercy to those who call upon him. gary disagrees with me that 1) people do not find God after hearing people's testimony- so no one should give their testimony. 2) only highly educated theologians and ordained ministers should be allowed to speak, and God only saves certain people. I disagree. Both the historical evidence and the word of God say otherwise. It is quite clear to anyone who takes the time to look. In the meantime, it is absolutely true that God will save someone who has no understanding of the Bible, and I am living proof. I have a better understanding of the word than gary and red put together- and it was gifted to me because of my faith. I only understood the Bible after I was baptized. That makes gary angry- because he went to school to try and understand, what was given to me as a free gift. My story is to encourage others to ask questions and seek, and have faith that they can be blessed - just like me. One does not need to understand the Bible to be gifted and to be blessed. Faith comes before every good thing in the Bible. That is in the word and there is proof that Jesus is not giving us a Bible quiz. For personal growth, and deeper understanding and more complex gifts- we do need to study our Bible. I love the Bible. I study it every day- sometimes all day long. To be saved- it is in the word, just call on the name of the Lord. Romans 10:13- Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. That is in all the translations, btw. I believe that is true. :)
I disagree. Both the historical evidence and the word of God say otherwise. It is quite clear to anyone who takes the time to look. Diva, your statements regarding me are blatantly false. I have always stated the Christian faith is based on the historical evidence of the Christ of the Bible. I believe it is the duty of "every" Christian to give an account of how they came to a saving faith in Christ. The focus of a Christian's testimony is Jesus Christ, NOT ME. IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME!
gary- when you address me in the future, understand that you are addressing an ordained minister. Okay? Now- you started this all with your attacks and gossip and stalking when I was giving a personal testimony, to a poster last year- and you have continued to attack personal testimony. The Bible is clear about where faith comes from. You can believe that people ONLY come to faith by the historical evidence. That may be for some people- but that is NOT for all people- and nothing you can say will prove otherwise. You beleive there is one way- and you know the one way and nothing you say comes from faith or understanding. It comes from what you have been told, by another human being. That is idolatry. That is a sin. And you know it. You chase people away- who come to faith by hearing, and that is so demonic. You use your status to cause people to doubt their faith by hearing, and that is why you are a useful tool for Satan. Not everyone HAS to be into theology. That is many times, a call from God- because He has gifted wisdom. Reading the Bible and teaching the Bible are not the same thing. The only ONE WAY- is Jesus, and everyone born is entitled seek after Him and expect to be addressed by God himself. You do not have the one way. In fact- you do not represent the word of God. You represent the word of gary ,and that is where we are always divided. You call me a witch and evil and get others to rally to your cause- because I don't bow to you. That is called ego. No one has to bow to any of us- they are only to bow to God. You point the way to you, with your personal narrow understanding. That is not how God works. We are gifted according to faith. YOU are the one who makes it about YOU YOU YOU. You have been gifted according to your faith. You need to step it up if you find yourself being jealous. And do not shut the doors to others, because you, yourself- do not want to surrender. Romans 10:17 >> New International Version (©1984) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. New Living Translation (©2007) So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ You are very clearly wrong- and you should not put a heavy yoke on people, that their faith in Jesus MUST come from embracing historical evidence. The historical evidence is not 100% conclusive. I like data, history, logic and I did not come to my faith by any of that. Don't mislead people. Nothing is 100%. If the historical evidence speaks to someone- great. If not- that is ok too.
gary- when you address me in the future, understand that you are addressing an ordained minister. Okay? Now- you started this all with your attacks and gossip and stalking when I was giving a personal testimony, to a poster last year- and you have continued to attack personal testimony. Diva, I likewise have restrained myself from responding to you. I have been on LF for many years, and I did not follow you here. You initiated the attacks on LF, with your post #83 to Buckaroo. Likewise, you initiated attacks against me on LP, when I was witnessing to MrSpock. I never stated Christians are saved by historical evidence, rather the Christian faith is based on historical evidence. I have always maintained we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, and His shed blood.
gary you are not a well person at all, for numerous reasons. Lying is a big problem for you. I pray for you.
I am not interested in arguing with you. Your doctrines are heretical, clearly Gnostic, and not worth discussing.
+1
Yet- y'all can not stop following me around and reading and commenting about what I say. Strange, that. :) I am the only one who ever discusses the Bible. Irony is so ironic that YOU- who doesn't understand the Bible- calls ME a heretic. Then again- The revolution in religion says that Jesus is a heretic. Jesus was a rebel against the religious- NOT the government. (There is that old delicious irony again, eh?) I am in excellent company. Praise God. "You will keep on hearing, but you will not understand; And you will keep on seeing, but will not perceive." (Matthew 13:10,11,13,14)
ME a heretic Get thee behind me satan. You might as well quit stalking me, I'm not converting to your cult.
If one says there was no Trinity prior to the Incarnation, then they are denying Jesus is God, and therefore a heretic. Christ is God, hence eternal.
Then again, gary you will stalk and harass people who say no such thing- and hang that accusation around their neck- because they refuse to worship YOU. You want things specifically and perfectly defined in the same exact words you, yourself, use.. or you call that person a witch and a heretic. But your ideas are wrong and it is obvious to anyone who knows the character of God- so you leave no choice for people. That is exactly what happened to me, with you. How many others have you lied about? You are a very wicked person with your accusations and lies. You speak death and evilness. I pray for the people you have harmed and abused. So , so sad. Jesus is the Lord, God.. not you gary. In the book of Genesis it says that the Trinity existed at the foundation. You have zero authority to define anything.
red- Are you and gary gay lovers? That would explain many unanswered questions, like why you rush in to defend him when he gets his backside handed to him for being evil.
Just going to be honest. You slandering Gary and Redge says more about you then them.
#361. To: A K A Stone (#360)
(Edited)
There is a definition of slander you know. :) It seems to me that they may be gay lovers, since red follows gary's directions and gets very upset at anyone who disagrees with gary. What would you call it? I am just being honest about what I have seen over a year's long period of thread stalking. Just sayin'. Is that allowed around here? Drawing conclusions from what I see in their behavior.
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(Translation)
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
(Paraphrase)
5 Obey the laws, then, for two reasons: first, to keep from being punished, and second, just because you know you should. 
#22. To: hondo68 (#1)
#23. To: buckeroo, *Ron Paul for President* (#22)
the Coptic Church
#24. To: hondo68 (#23)
#25. To: buckeroo (#24)
The Coptics are pretty much centralized in Egypt
#26. To: hondo68 (#25)
#27. To: buckeroo (#26)
(Edited)
Article I posted ages ago at TOS... How Preachers Incited Revolution
#28. To: hondo68 (#27)
#33. To: buckeroo (#28)
#35. To: diva betsy ross, hondo68 (#33)
(Edited)
Jesus was NOT a rebel against the government. He was a rebel against darkness, illness and hatred.
#36. To: buckeroo (#35)
(Edited)
#37. To: diva betsy ross (#36)
You have to go so much deeper.
#38. To: buckeroo (#37)
#40. To: diva betsy ross (#38)
Follow your free will. Whatever.
#52. To: buckeroo (#40)
(Edited)
#55. To: diva betsy ross (#52)
read them all. Any one that I want to read. I also listen to people from all different denominations- go to temple on occasion, observe Jewish holy days- pray to keep all of the commandments- and read the Gnostic gospels. I also pray and ask for revelation.
I am very confident that there is nothing that you could explain to me.
You are not going to find understanding in any one single translation. It is not there.
#57. To: buckeroo (#55)
#58. To: diva betsy ross (#57)
Honestly... I have to spend some more time trying to figure out why you don't see the common threads, that connect all of those interpretations.
I am speechless that you don't see it.
I'll have to figure you out later, buck. Lent is here. 40 days. See you after Easter.
bye.
#59. To: buckeroo (#58)
(Edited)
#69. To: diva betsy ross (#59)
Just like there is the Trinity.
#72. To: buckeroo (#69)
(Edited)
Don't you realize that all of you together are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God lives in you? 1 Corinthians 3:16
#73. To: diva betsy ross (#72)
I am not catholic. Catholicism is a religion. I don't have a religion. I am a non-religious follower of Jesus the Christ.
#83. To: buckeroo (#73)
(Edited)
#85. To: diva betsy ross (#83)
#91. To: buckeroo (#85)
#93. To: diva betsy ross (#91)
I answered that question
#99. To: buckeroo (#93)
(Edited)
#101. To: diva betsy ross (#99)
I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions.
#182. To: buckeroo (#101)
#183. To: diva betsy ross (#182)
I said I can read any Bible I want to read- and it all makes perfect sense to me.
#184. To: buckeroo (#183)
(Edited)
#185. To: diva betsy ross (#184)
I started by learning the character of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
#186. To: buckeroo (#185)
(Edited)
#190. To: diva betsy ross (#186)
(Edited)
"This is a very simple way of explaining of course."
#195. To: Ferret Mike (#190)
#196. To: diva betsy ross (#195)
#228. To: Ferret Mike (#196)
#229. To: diva betsy ross (#228)
#230. To: Ferret Mike (#229)
#231. To: diva betsy ross (#230)
(Edited)
#236. To: Ferret Mike (#231)
#238. To: diva betsy ross (#236)
(Edited)
#239. To: Ferret Mike (#238)
(Edited)
#240. To: diva betsy ross (#239)
it doesn't matter what anyone believes
#241. To: buckeroo (#240)
#242. To: diva betsy ross (#241)
In my experience, belief is something that I understand to be true, based upon what I have seen. I have belief in what has been proven to me.
#260. To: buckeroo (#242)
So, Faith and Believe are close but differ
#268. To: GarySpFC, buckeroo (#260)
#273. To: diva betsy ross, GarySpFC, buckeroo (#268)
faith is not fact. gary would prefer you not having any faith in Jesus- and it is his mission to turn you around and chase you away.
#276. To: redleghunter (#273)
#278. To: diva betsy ross (#276)
red- chatting with you gives me excellent experience speaking to someone in a lower IQ range.
#286. To: redleghunter (#278)
#287. To: diva betsy ross, Garyspfc (#286)
Did the fishermen study the Bible? In the Scriptures there are people who did not read the Bible, who sought God and were blessed.
#298. To: A K A Stone (#287)
#304. To: diva betsy ross (#298)
gary disagrees with me that 1) people do not find God after hearing people's testimony- so no one should give their testimony. 2) only highly educated theologians and ordained ministers should be allowed to speak, and God only saves certain people.
#305. To: GarySpFC (#304)
(Edited)
#314. To: diva betsy ross (#305)
#317. To: GarySpFC (#314)
#320. To: diva betsy ross (#317)
#322. To: GarySpFC, A K A Stone, diva betsy ross (#320)
Your doctrines are heretical, clearly Gnostic, and not worth discussing.
#323. To: hondo68 (#322)
#324. To: diva betsy ross (#323)
Jesus is a heretic
#328. To: hondo68, A K A Stone (#324)
(Edited)
#331. To: GarySpFC (#328)
(Edited)
#335. To: diva betsy ross (#331)
#336. To: redleghunter (#335)
#360. To: diva betsy ross (#336)
red- Are you and gary gay lovers? That would explain many unanswered questions, like why you rush in to defend him when he gets his backside handed to him for being evil.
Replies to Comment # 360.
End Trace Mode for Comment # 360.
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