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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Bible Study See other Bible Study Articles Title: What Version of the Christian Holy Bible Do You read? Source: LF URL Source: http://hereandnow Published: Feb 18, 2012 Author: buckeroo Post Date: 2012-02-18 17:52:56 by buckeroo Keywords: None Views: 289607 Comments: 449 Assuming you have a Christian Holy Bible of one flavor or another, what version do you read? As several examples, here are several variations: the New King James Version, New Living Translation, New International Version, New Revised Standard Version and so forth. Post your comment on this thread. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-85) not displayed.       .       .       . #86. To: jwpegler (#84) There are also huge differences between the Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox versions of the Old Testament. JW - You are on "TOP" of this thread. You seem to understand that the documentation that we have at our disposal is diverse. This is why there are so many variations in Jewish faith (tons of variations, BTW) as well as variations in the Christian faith (many more tons, BTW). I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion. Weird, isn't it? buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   10:53:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #87. To: buckeroo (#86) Weird, isn't it? No it's not weird it's typical, and just another example of that 'rugged individualism' we love to brag about. How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me. Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   10:58:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #88. To: buckeroo (#80) I think the entire Bible MUST be taken from a historical context, too The story of the ancient world is recorded by several historians of old, such as Homer, Josephus, Tacitus, Xenophon, Herodotus—called “the father of history,” and Thucydides, who is credited as being one of the most trustworthy of ancient sources. All of them suffer in comparison to the historical pinpoint accuracy of Luke. Luke was undeniably brilliant, possessing remarkable literary abilities and a deep knowledge of the Greek language. He was the only non-Jewish author of the Bible. Yet he wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else—28 percent. He was a physician and a scientist. He was a writer and a medical missionary. He has proved himself a historian of first rank. Here he tells us that before writing his Gospel, he did the work of an investigative journalist, recording his findings in an orderly manner based on careful investigation: “It seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught” ( With that in mind, remember that Luke painstakingly and confidently described the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in his Gospel, chapters 23 and 24; and he repeatedly made reference to the Resurrection in the book of Acts. The brilliant Wilbur Smith said: "Of all the writers in the New Testament, Luke was the one who knew better than any of them, from his own medical experience, that it was utterly impossible for a dead body to come to life again by its own power. He was also a man who would have no faith in such a great doctrine as the resurrection of Christ, were it based upon a vision, a hallucination, mental excitement, or the blowing of the wind, or the rattling of a window. It was the conviction of this scientist and scholar, true Grecian and true Christian, that the Lord manifested himself to his disciples in many proofs." To reject the Resurrection, you have to disregard the demonstrated reliability of one of the foremost historians of the first century, a man who has been proven accurate even in the minutia of his narrative. How accurate was Luke's historical record? He tied everything into history and gave us historical anchors all along the way, both in his Gospel and Acts. His historical pegs have proven accurate even in minute points. For example, notice the way he began chapter 2: those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. (This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) And everyone went to his own town to register” (Luke 2:1–3). Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria. A hundred years ago, critics had a field day with that statement, finding no evidence in history to suggest that Caesar ever issued such a decree. Furthermore (critics charged) there was nothing to suggest that Quirinius was ever governor of Syria at the time prescribed by Luke. Then a series of discoveries were made. Sir William Ramsay, the Scottish archaeologist, dug up first-century documents showing that the Roman Empire conducted a regular taxpaying census every fourteen years and that this system originated in the days of Caesar Augustus. Another document was found in Egypt, an edict of G. Vibius Maximus written on papyrus, describing the procedure used in such a census, directing taxpayers to return to their ancestral towns to register. Another inscription discovered by Ramsay in Antioch showed that with brief interruptions, a man named Quirinius functioned as military governor in Syria from 12 b.c. to a.d. 16. Notice in the next chapter, Luke 3, how meticulously Luke nails down his historical references: “In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar—when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene—during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert” (Luke 3:1–2) Sound like misty legend and fabricated fable? Anything but! Luke tacks John’s ministry to the wall of history using six different pins. John the Baptist appeared when (1) Tiberius Caesar was in his fifteenth year of rule; (2) Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; (3) Herod was tetrarch of Galilee; (4) Herod’s brother Philip was tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis; (5) Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene; and (6) Annas and Caiaphas were sharing the office of high priest. Most of these facts are easy to verify, but a couple of them caused problems. A hundred years ago, critics were attacking Luke’s reference to Lysanias, saying, “The only Lysanias mentioned in history was killed in 36 b.c., sixty years before John the Baptist.” But the critics were stilled when archaeologists excavated an inscription near Damascus, stating that a man named Lysanias was indeed tetrarch of Abilene at the time mentioned by Luke. The skeptics also made hay with Pontius Pilate. For most of modern history his name has been absent on every historical document we have from the ancient world. Critics charged that Pilate was a fabrication. But a stone I have personally seen and took a picture of was excavated in Caesarea. It has the name Pontius Pilate plainly engraved for all the world to see. He was governor of Judea during the very time given by Luke, and he was headquartered at Caesarea. I mentioned earlier how William Ramsay traveled to the Middle East to disprove Luke’s historical references and how, to his great surprise, he found the writings of Luke accurate in their tiniest details. This is even more remarkable when we consider that every other historian in the ancient world—men like Polybius, Quintilian, Xenophon, Josephus, and even Thucydides—did not hesitate to misrecord the facts to suit their own purposes. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   11:05:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #89. To: mininggold (#87) How the founders ever thought we could keep this country united is beyond me. We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists. So, their individual faith was not an important issue. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   11:06:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #90. To: buckeroo (#89) We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists. Yep.... a certain amount of group think was insured, and by force if need be. Isn't that what the current type of conservatives love to bitch about? Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   11:16:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #91. To: buckeroo (#85) Ok- so you are just playing games. I told you- I read any of them I want to read. I answered that question - you asked more. I answered- you spit. I wanted to be open and honest- you bark. Typical buck. There is no transformation here. I thought so, but I wanted to experiment with what would happen if turned around and authentically answered your questions from a human place. So I did that ,and you play games. For anyone reading that is why we need to ask God to transform us into the beings He would like us to be. The world is full of ego driven- selfish people, who are very abusive to our spirits. Someone has to pay for that sin. Someone always does- your lover, wife, children, friends, co-workers... anyone who is around you, buck- pays for your ego. If you are smart- you seek Jesus and accept His gift of debt free peace. OR- you can play games with theologians, who have no fruit in their lives- and pretend along with them that you are trying to understand. OR you are looking for comfort in someone's words that you don't need God- because their ideas are nuts. God isn't fooled. Play your games. Pay the consequences. I am so thankful for an awesome God who blesses me, and gives me all understanding. Anyone else reading- this is for you- not buck-if you want the answers and blessings, they are for YOU too. Get into any Bible, and when you have a question, seek God- by praying - and asking for understanding. God will show up. The love, joy,peace, good fortune, good health, relationships, adventure and daily blessings are for anyone. THAT is the gospel. You do have to give up sin- and ego, and chaos and illness - however. The only thing I have that is different from those who attack me- is that I have a fear of Lord, I love Jesus will all my heart-mind and soul and I have surrendered a broken life of pain and abuse. I get attacked by people who are addicted to their illness and sin. Don't let anyone tell you that THIS peaceful life isn't for you- or you have to have some lofty knowledge of history.. or you have to recite some list of prayers in a perfect way. Those are lies. The Lord transformed my life- and restored my joy, and made every single ache and pain of life - so beautiful. Whoever you are who is following along- It is for you as well. Start in the gospel of John and keep reading. Or start anywhere. If you want a transformation in your life- you have to change the way you think. God bless you all. Peace. diva betsy ross  posted on  2012-02-25   11:22:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #92. To: GarySpFC (#88) Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? At any rate, you wrote: Luke did not just say that Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem. He said they traveled there because of a census instituted by Caesar Augustus and that this particular census occurred while a man named Quirinius was governor of Syria. Now, we are getting somewhere! The history of the Jews/Rome (circa ~67 BCE) is the crux of the New Testament. Prior to 67BCE, there were Essenes, the Pharisees and the Sadducees. After Pompeii's conquest of Syria/Judea/Israel something amazing happened: a new Jewish sect rose up against the Pharisees and the Romans. That was the fourth group: the Zealots. When the Zealots rose up and attacked the Romans because of TAXATION, the Zealots lost time and again (circa ~4 CE) but this continual conflict created a blood lust against the Jews. Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   11:24:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #93. To: diva betsy ross (#91) I answered that question No you didn't. You said, "read ALL of them." That infers you have some 100+ Bibles in front of you at all times which is absurd. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   11:26:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #94. To: buckeroo (#82) The Mishnah is not part of the Bible, but a record of Jewish oral tradition. The O.T. Canon was closed prior to the writing of the Mishnah. MISHNA [MISH nah] (repetition) — the first, and basic, part of the Talmud and the written basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism. The Mishna contains a written collection of traditional laws (halakoth) handed down orally from teacher to student. It was compiled across a period of about 335 years, from 200 b.c. to a.d. 135. The Mishna is grouped into 63 treaties, or tractates, that deal with all areas of Jewish life—legal, theological, social, and religious—as taught in the schools of Palestine. Soon after the Mishna was compiled, it became known as the “iron pillar of the Torah,” since it preserves the way a Jew can follow the Torah. For many Jews, the Mishna ranks second only to the canon of the Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, many Jews consider it part of the Torah. Because it is the core for both the Jerusalem and Babylonian Talmuds, the Mishna serves as a link between Jews in the land of Israel and Jews scattered around the world. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   11:30:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #95. To: buckeroo (#92) Your entire post is a KEEPER. That was brilliant and to the point and I thank you. Did you write that post or was it "lifted" from some obscure out-of-the-way remote location of the Internet? I have a large Logos Bible Software collection, and Ramsey's 7 volume works are included. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   11:37:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #96. To: buckeroo (#92) Are you aware of that? You see, the Pharisees and the Sadducees basically permitted the Romans to co-exist and this attitude further created the conflicts in religion and politics by the Zealots. The Essenes appear to be nearly aloof of this situation with the exception of John the Baptist and Jesus Christ. This is important stuff from a historical perspective. Yes, I am aware of theses groups. That said, there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   11:41:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #97. To: GarySpFC (#94) Lets break this down a bit (I am not arguing, I am trying to learn this stuff) ... The Talmud = Jewish oral Torah comprised of the Mishnah and the Gemana (Palestinian and Babylonian versions). The Torah = first five books of the Hebrew Scriptures that is the oral Torah The Tanakh = the entire kit set of oral and written documents finally completed in ~600 CE) Fix the above stuff before we can go on. Because THE REALLY BIG STUFF IS history of the Zealots, IMO. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   11:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #98. To: GarySpFC (#96) there is nothing to indicate either Jesus or the Baptist were members of either group. They were Jews, correct? Just so you know, the Zealots were centralized in Galilee ... guilt by association with Jesus and associates? Hmmmm. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   11:48:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #99. To: buckeroo (#93) (Edited) Oh God bless you buck. You are stuck. You are in a box. You only understand what the eyes of your flesh tell you is true. You only have faith in humans. If I have an internet connection I have access to every bible and all the gospels and every way of thinking- at my fingertips. So it is more ridiculousness that you are chatting with me online- and do not make the connection that I can look up anything I want to look up- in .2 seconds. I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions. Pay attention, or the world is going to pass you by- and you will never understand anything. You are lead by people who tell you what you want to hear, because it soothes your ego. Jesus was a rebel because He is telling you not to be held in bondage to other people's ideas. You gotta get out of your ego- and open your heart and your mind- and be transformed by the renewal of your mind. :) Romans 12:2 Here is a whole bunch of translations- read them all- google more if you want. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+12%3A2&version=NIV You do not need anyone else, other than God, to tell you which one of these is the right one. That is true for anyone. :) Best wishes- I am going to back to observing a peaceful Lent, learning the ways of my Lord. I pray you are blessed with understanding and joy in the Lord, today. I thank you for this time, because it is actually valuable to me, in understanding human nature. So, while it is right in line with my Lent observation- I am not going to get back here for awhile again. diva betsy ross  posted on  2012-02-25   11:49:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #100. To: buckeroo (#89) We had methods of maintaining "core" values about God, family and country at that time. And despite, that many people think the founders were Christians ... they were more the following: deists. So, their individual faith was not an important issue. I am going to emphatically disagree. Only two, Jefferson and Franklin, we're Deists, and their form of Deism was not at all like today's Deism or atheism. See for yourself. What did our Founding Fathers have to say? Was America founded by Christians? Was it founded to be a Christian nation?   "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religion but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.","Give me liberty or give me death. "Patrick Henry of the Constitutional Convention. http://www.errantskeptics.org/ChristianNation.htm Did you know that 52 of the 55 signers of "The Declaration of Independence" were orthodox, deeply committed, Christians? The other three all believed in the Bible as the divine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.  It is the same Congress that formed the American Bible Society, immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation. Part of our commitment should be to raise Old Glory across the nation's flagpoles and http://www.errantskeptics.org/Quotes_Founding- Fathers.htmbe grateful we live in a nation committed to these ideals. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   12:01:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #101. To: diva betsy ross (#99) I told you, above, what my own personal Bible is, that is in front of me. I already told you and you asked more questions. Have you read and understood the thread banner? It poses a simple question. Take a peek at it before posting again on this thread. If you don't want to answer the simple question posted at the top of the thread, just say so and move on or don't post at all. If you do want to answer the question, please be factual instead of elusive to the question. You do not read 100+ Bibles at any one time despite that which you claim. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   12:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #102. To: GarySpFC (#100) I dispute what you are suggesting for several reasons. First, there is a known association of the "closeness" of the local church with community activities in very early colonial America by local leaders and of course they went to a Christian church and were active within local community efforts. To be otherwise, could ensure being ostracized from their relative positions. But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain. In fact, within the Declaration of Independence (written by TJ) Jefferson's inclusion of the slavery issue was completely removed by the Continental Congress. There was no consensus of or about a Christian concept in that exclusion in the concept of slavery. Jefferson threw EVERYTHING at King George ... yet the adoption of the DoI doesn't indicate one iota of "faith" or a "religion" certainly not from a Christian perspective. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   12:19:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #103. To: buckeroo (#102) But, for the most part most were deists not atheists (as you associate the term) ... they simply didn't believe in an organized religion at the level of increasing "hell fire&damnation." They believed in a creator but it did not mean that the creator would intervene in our day-to-day lives much less with breaking away from Britain. The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule. Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   12:34:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #104. To: buckeroo (#86) (Edited) I have noted that NO two Christians agree as to their faith. The fundamental question is WHY? I strongly believe that the interpretation of the Bible between Christians is because they do not have a common ground for discussion. Very true. Just look at the "10 Commandments". The "10 Commandments" appears twice in the Bible -- in Exodus and Deuteronomy. They are not identical. There were three attempts to organize these rules into 10 commandments: 1.) The Philonic division. Eastern Orthodox and most Protestants use this version. 2.) The Talmudic version. 3.) The Augustinian version. Catholics and Lutherans use this version. Philonic Talmudic Augustinian Exodus 20:1- 17 Deuteronomy 5:4- 21 — 1 — 1 And God spake all these words, saying, 4–5 The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire ... saying, Pre 1 — 2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 6 I am the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 1 2 1 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. 2 2 1 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 2 2 1 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, 2 2 1 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. 3 3 2 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 11 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 4 4 3 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 4 4 3 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 4 4 3 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 4 4 3 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. 5 5 4 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee. 6 6 5 13 Thou shalt not kill. 17 Thou shalt not kill. 7 7 6 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery. 8 8 7 15 Thou shalt not steal. 19 Neither shalt thou steal. 9 9 8 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. 10 10 9 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, 21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, 10 10 10 thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's. neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's. What do America dispensationalists say about this? The Catholics "changed" the 10 commandments, so it must be the work of Satan. What a hoot. Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate jwpegler  posted on  2012-02-25   12:41:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #105. To: buckeroo (#97) Tanakh - A New Translation of THE HOLY SCRIPTURES According to the Traditional Hebrew Text. (copied from title page) TORAH The Hebrew word Torah means teaching or instruction. Used originally to refer to specific instances of instruction in Israel’s story (cf. Exod. 13:9; 18:16; Num. 19:2; Deut. 17:8–11; Josh. 1:7–8; Jer. 6:19), Torah later became a technical term referring to the Pentateuch. It is also used in a broader sense to refer to the totality of Jewish teaching, both written and oral. Because Israel’s Torah abounds in commandments and statutes, both ethical and ritual, the word law is frequently used as synonymous with Torah. The understanding of Torah as law is already apparent in the LXX, where Torah is translated as nomos (law), and the NT builds on this understanding. However, Israel’s Torah is more than legal codes. It is God’s instruction to Israel on how to keep the covenant, instruction set in the context of story and promise. So it is that Matthew can speak of Jesus as coming to fulfill the law, the Torah (cf. also TBC on 5:17–48). TALMUD — a collection of books and commentary compiled by Jewish rabbis from a.d. 250–500. The Hebrew word talmud means “study” or “learning.” This is a fitting title for a work that is a library of Jewish wisdom, philosophy, history, legend, astronomy, dietary laws, scientific debates, medicine, and mathematics. The Talmud is made up of interpretation and commentary of the Mosaic and rabbinic law contained in the Mishna, an exhaustive collection of laws and guidelines for observing the law of Moses. As a guide to following the law, the Talmud also serves as a basis for spiritual formation. More than 2,000 scholars or rabbis worked across a period of 250 years to understand the meaning of God’s word for their particular situation. Out of these efforts they produced the Talmud. The wide variety and comprehensive detail of the Talmud’s subject matter conveys a deep thirst for learning. Questions as minute as why God created a gnat and as universal as the origin of the universe filled the teachers of Israel with wonder. A passion for truth and understanding led the Jewish teachers deep into the marvels of the human experience. The Pharisees were the first to give greater attention to the laws of Moses. The Roman historian Josephus reported that their oral tradition included regulations that were not recorded in the Mosaic Law at all. The Mishna collected all of these oral regulations into one permanent record. In response to the Mishna, wide discussions concerning its content and meaning began, resulting in the Talmud. The centers for these learned discussions were the academies in Babylonia and Israel. As a result, two Talmuds, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud, were created. Because the Babylonian rabbis were far more thorough in word-by-word interpretation of the Mishna than were the rabbis in Israel, the Babylonian Talmud is much more complete. An English edition of this work fills 36 volumes and almost 36,000 pages. The Talmud is divided into six major sections. The first of these deals with agriculture and crops and the offerings, tithes, and prayers associated with them. The second section is about holidays and festivals such as the Sabbath, Passover, Rosh Hashanah and others. A third section discusses laws about marriage, divorce, property, and related subjects. Another section concerns the rules governing the courts. The next section deals with the laws pertaining to the Temple and the sacrifices and Jewish foods. The final section discusses the laws of ritual purity. At some points during Jewish history, traditions and the Talmud have been considered equal to or better than the Scripture itself. Jesus encountered such an attitude among the Pharisees even before the existence of the Talmud (Matt. 15:3). Christians must be careful not to make the same mistake in regard to our own traditions. Btw, the Torah is not oral. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   12:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #106. To: mininggold, hondo68 (#103) The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule. Exactly. I think hondo68 (way up the thread) provided this link: How Preachers Incited Revolution Angry colonists were rallied to declare independence and take up arms because of what they heard from the pulpit. By Harry S. Stout The reason for the link is the complete denial of some of Paul's readings in Romans 13:1-7. A good Christian would bow down to government, if you read that crap. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   12:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #107. To: GarySpFC (#105) Thanks for the clarification. This is the education that I am after, FWIW. Here to compliment your understanding is a quick rundown by a YouTube clip: buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   12:54:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #108. To: GarySpFC (#105) So, if you had a chance to view that video: it is the ORAL LAW not the Bible that establishes the Jewish traditions. Jesus was a Jew, for sure. Why would he reference a document (the Bible) that wasn't around at his time? buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:03:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #109. To: mininggold (#103) The founders and framers were fulling aware of the perils of a Christian theocracy and had they wanted to form one we might has well have stayed on as colonies under British rule. The word "Religion" as used by the Founders meant denomination. You might not be aware of it, but. Several states had their own denomination as late as 1820. And this is important to note, the early Americas came here seeking freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion. The colonies had state churches. Furthermore, the Founders had CONTEMPT for atheism. Does Franklin sound like a modern Deist? Benjamin Franklin in a letter to the President of the first Constitutional Congress, 1789: " I have lived a long time, Sir, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that " except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and hat one or more Clergy of the city be requested to officiate in that service." speech to Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787 , America's God and Country, William Federer, pp.247-248 As it turned out, after the convention, and nine days after the first Constitutional Congress convened with a quorum (April 9, 1789), the Congress implemented Franklin's recommendation. Two chaplains of different denominations were appointed, one of the House and one to the Senate, with a salary of $500 apiece. This practice continues today, posing no threat to the first Amendment. How could it? The men who authorized the chaplains wrote the Amendment. Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration, US Minister to England and France, oldest Founding Father: "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern." America's God and Country, William Federer, p.251 OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:04:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #110. To: buckeroo (#108) I watched the video. The Orthodox and Conservative Jews see authority for their belief system in the written Word, whereas Reformed Jews do not. My mentor and best friend for ten years was a Jew, who converted to Christianity. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:13:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #111. To: GarySpFC, mininggold (#109) Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration, US Minister to England and France, oldest Founding Father: "History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern." America's God and Country, William Federer, p.251 Excellent citation, but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic. We recently clearly see how the eradication and undermining of Christianity in American has created a far more fundamentally immoral, un-ethical,and dishonorable Republic while instead embracing the moral relativism of secular humanism is now accepted. Liberator  posted on  2012-02-25   13:16:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #112. To: All (#110) Noah Webster: "The command of God is ' He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in fear of God.' 2 Sam. 23:3. This command prescribes the only effectual; remedy for public evils. It is an absurd and impious sentiment, that religious character is not necessary for public officers…But surely as there is a God in heaven who exercises a moral government over affairs of this world, so certainly will the neglect of the divine command, in the choice of rulers, be followed by bad laws, crimes, waste of public money, and a thousand other evils. Men devise and adopt new forms of government; they amend old forms, repair breaches, and punish violators of the constitution; but there is, there can be, no effectual remedy, but obedience to The Divine Law." John Marshal argued, by some to be our greatest Chief Justice of the Supreme Court: "The American population is entirely Christian, and with us Christianity and religion are identified. It would be strange indeed, if such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."…letter to Jasper Adams, May 9, 1833. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #113. To: jwpegler (#104) Excellent discussion. I found your same or similar table on WikiPedia, BTW. It is interesting to note that there is quite a bit of similarities, herein, irrespective of Bible translations or interpretations or versions, at least from my perspective. And, the Ten Commandments is the bedrock for Judaism and Christianity and Muslim faiths. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #114. To: GarySpFC (#109) The founders and framers all had a variety of beliefs, that is for certain. But if they wanted to found a theocracy similar to that of Britain they certainly could have done so. Instead they used it as the example they didn't want to imitate. Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   13:22:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #115. To: Liberator (#111) (Edited) Excellent citation, but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic. We recently clearly see how the eradication and undermining of Christianity in American has created a far more fundamentally immoral, un-ethical,and dishonorable Republic while instead embracing the moral relativism of secular humanism is now accepted. I guess the Church of England practicing Britain must be the exception. Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   13:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #116. To: GarySpFC (#110) The Orthodox and Conservative Jews see authority for their belief system in the written Word, whereas Reformed Jews do not. My mentor and best friend for ten years was a Jew, who converted to Christianity. And Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. What faction of the Jews did he represent? At his time: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Zealots represented the known Jewish factions according to Josephus' in "Jewish Antiquities. It is important to understand the historical roots of his Jewish background and the historical roots in Jewish in-fighting AND the Roman bloodbath. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:29:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #117. To: mininggold (#114) Baloney, where do you think we got our 3 branches of government from? Madison found it in the Bible. James Madison, At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22; “For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us.” [Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater] "Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe. And to the same Divine Author of every good and perfect gift [James 1:17] we are indebted for all those privileges and advantages, religious as well as civil, which are so richly enjoyed in this favored land." James Madison "Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."  James Madison - America's Providential History p. 93. "While we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess, and to observe, the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to them whose minds have not yielded to the evidence which has convinced us." James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance (Massachusetts: Isaiah Thomas, 1786). This can be found in numerous documentary histories and other resources. The religion of divine origin was obviously Christianity, of which Madison said he was convinced. "Waiving the rights of conscience, not included in the surrender implied by the social state, & more or less invaded by all Religious establishments, the simple question to be decided, is whether a support of the best & purest religion, the Christian religion itself ought not, so far at least as pecuniary means are involved, to be provided for by the Government, rather than be left to the voluntary provisions of those who profess it." James Madison response to an essay/sermon by Reverend Jasper Adams. Religion and Politics in the Early Republic: Jasper Adams and the Church-State Debate, Daniel L. Dreisbach, ed. (Kentucky: University Press of Kentucky, 1996), p. 117. "Religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, that all men should enjoy the fullest toleration in the exercise of religion according to the dictates of conscience, unpunished and unrestrained by the magistrate, unless under color of religion any man disturb the peace, the happiness, or safety of society, and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other." James Madison, ca. 1789, cited in Gaillard Hunt, James Madison and Religious Liberty (Washington: American Historical Association, Government Printing Office, 1902), p. 166. • I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way. Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773) • In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible. “ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: "We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government' far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the 10 commandments." OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #118. To: buckeroo (#116) And Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew. What faction of the Jews did he represent? At his time: the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Essenes and the Zealots represented the known Jewish factions according to Josephus' in "Jewish Antiquities. None of the four. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:32:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #119. To: buckeroo (#113) And, the Ten Commandments is the bedrock for Judaism and Christianity and Muslim faiths. I would not include Muslims in that group. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:34:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #120. To: GarySpFC (#117) Baloney, where do you think we got our 3 branches of government from? Madison found it in the Bible. So that must mean the founders should have created a theocracy, because one found inspiration in the Bible. Almost every country in the Middle East is awash in oil, and we have to side with the one that has nothing but joos. Goddamn, that was good thinkin'. Esso posted on 2012-01-13 7:37:56 ET mininggold  posted on  2012-02-25   13:35:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #121. To: All (#119) Does John Adams sound like a Deist? John Adams,  "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."  President Adams, July 4, 1821 "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon (Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40. "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net.  Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.  It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military.   "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756. "The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796. John Adams and John Hancock: "We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! " April 18, 1775 "A patriot without religion, in my estimation, is as great a paradox as an honest man without the fear of God. Is it possible that he whom no moral obligations bind, can have any real Good Will towards Men? Can he be a patriot who, by an openly vicious conduct, is undermining the very bonds of Society? ...The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "...a true American Patriot must be a religious man...He who neglects his duty to his maker, may well be expected to be deficient and insincere in his duty towards the public." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but the God of Israel is He that giveth strength and power unto His people. Trust in Him at all times, ye people, pour out your hearts before Him; God is a refuge for us." Abigal Adams, wife of President John Adams in letter to husband John Adams 1776. "Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, dated June 21, 1776. "The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever." OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #122. To: All (#121) Read carefully the first quote by Washington? does he sound like a Deist? What does this tell you about his view of atheism? George Washington, "The Hand of providence has been so conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks faith, and more than wicked, that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge his obligations." George Washington's letter of August 20, 1778 to Brig. General Thomas Nelson "Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prorate myself before Thee." George Washington's prayer at Valley Forge "No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men more than the people of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency...We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -- George Washington in his Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789 "Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being, who rules over the universe, who presides in the council of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States.." "...Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency"  From President George Washington's Inaugural Address, April 30th, 1789, addressed to both Houses of Congress. "Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion."-- George Washington, ca. 1789,  Maxims of Washington, ed. John F. Schroeder (Mt. Vernon: Mt. Vernon Ladies Association, 1942), p. 106. "And now, Almighty Father, if it is Thy holy will that we shall we shall obtain a place and name among the nations of the Earth...:grant that we may be enabled to show our gratitude for Thy goodness by endeavors to fear and obey Thee." George Washington "The General hopes and trusts that every officer and man, will endeavor so to live, and act, as becomes a Christian Soldier defending the dearest Rights and Liberties of his country." General George Washington, July 9, 1776 "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports . . . And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion . . . Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle." From President George Washington's Farewell Address "While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." George Washington--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343. OBAMA HAS SPENT MORE MONEY THAN ANY OTHER PERSON IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND. GarySpFC  posted on  2012-02-25   13:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #123. To: Liberator, GarySpFC, mininggold (#111) but the pagans, agnostics, atheists, and the ignorant will NOT concede that the tenets of Christianity and word of God was the Founders' foundation of what was the Hope that might help maintain the honor and integrity of this Republic. BAH! You must have skipped class in a formal institution concerning History of America that day, while attending a local church about some sermon practicing HELL_FIRE&DAMNATION if you are not baptized in the blood of Christ. This is incorrect from a historical perspective. The idea of taking up arms against the British wasnot and isnot a CHRISTIAN concept. Similar to the poppycock about the same in a modern sense: GOTO WAR AGAINST THE MUSLIMS. It is all pure unadulterated crapola. It is total chicanery that you have fallen for. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #124. To: GarySpFC (#119) I would not include Muslims in that group. Why not? All three religious groups (Jews, Christians and Muslims) use Abraham/Sarah as the foundation for their respective faiths. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:46:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #125. To: GarySpFC (#122) Deism and atheism are not the same concepts. You are incorrect from a conceptual perspective. buckeroo  posted on  2012-02-25   13:49:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #126. To: GarySpFC (#121) John Adams... John Adams wanted strong central government where power rested with a few people. Adams and the Federalists also opposed the Bill Of Rights. While President, Adams trampled on the Bill of Rights by passing the Alien and Sedition Acts, which among other things empowered the President to imprison people who spoke in a "false, scandalous and malicious" manner against the government. (Adams was kind of the George Bush of his day!) John Adams is hardly a paragon of American thought. I wouldn't be quoting him too much if I were you. Iran’s main drive for acquiring atomic weapons is not for use against Israel but as a deterrent against U.S. intervention -- Major General Zeevi Farkash, head of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate jwpegler  posted on  2012-02-25   13:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (127 - 449) not displayed. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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