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Title: Rand Paul: We Are Not All Georgians Yet
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URL Source: http://reason.com/blog/2011/12/05/r ... l-we-are-not-all-georgians-yet
Published: Dec 6, 2011
Author: reason.org reason.com reason.tv
Post Date: 2011-12-06 14:12:45 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 6351
Comments: 25
Jack Hunter, co-author of Sen. Rand Paul's book The Tea Party Goes to Washington, thinks that Sen. Paul saved us from war with Russia. How? By preventing a unanimous consent vote pushed by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) from passing, a vote that would have demanded the president fight to get the republic of Georgia into NATO. Details at the Daily Caller: Behind the scenes, Rubio moved to have a unanimous consent vote that would have hastened Georgia’s entry into NATO. The unanimous consent vote never happened because Senator Rand Paul single-handedly prevented it. This is not a triviality. Make no mistake: Bringing Georgia into NATO could lead to a new military conflict for the United States, which is why any move that would facilitate Georgia’s entry into the alliance should be publicly debated. Rubio’s attempt to push this through by unanimous consent — that is to say, without any formal debate or vote — is highly suspect and calls into question the senator’s better judgment. Hunter goes on to discuss the cross-partisan forces, often led by John McCain, to more tightly link the fates of Georgia and the United States, and the danger of conflict with Russia such a link creates. James Antle at American Spectator with more on Rand Paul, and this blocked Georgia vote: Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida, a fellow Tea Party triumph from last year's election, had bipartisan support for an amendment to bring the former Soviet republic of Georgia into NATO. "It called for the President to lead a diplomatic effort to get approval of Georgia's Membership Action Plan during the upcoming NATO Summit in Chicago," a Rubio spokesman explained in an email. Paul blocked the amendment. He believed that NATO expansion in this sensitive area could embroil the United States in Georgia's conflicts with a nuclear-armed Russia, potentially risking war.
Poster Comment: Rubio sucks.
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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)
I don't understand why NATO still exists. I certainly don't understand why these neo-commies want to piss the Russians off by moving former parts of the Soviet Union into NATO. It doesn't make any senses.
Why not? Is it really their fault they were overrun by the Soviets in the last part of that war in the European theater and kept part of the system of Soviet satellites by force? I see some of the policies of NATO as being problematic, but see nothing wrong with a general alliance like this to provide standardization of doctrine and equipment, and other components useful to have in place to provide for the general defense of Europe and North America.
Because the fate of Georgia has nothing whatsoever to do with America's freedom and prosperity. Georgia became part of the Russian Empire 100 years before there was any Soviet Union. They have never been part of the West. They have never been part of America's strategic interests. Bringing them into NATO will do nothing helpful for anyone.
I do not concur. when and how they were subjected into the Soviet empire, even before it became that does not make them unsuitable for NATO. Besides, NATO is just not about the interests of the U.S.A., it is about how many countries who have all got self interests can also work together to create the best defense for the common good. We spent precious time and capital overcoming equipment incompatibilities, doctrine and command structural differences, and working out the details of alliances building a military monolith that could take on and defeat the German Nazis. This translates into lives that could of been saved on our side of the war. I see NATO as still having value and a key role for the general defense and protection of many countries, and increasing the alliance's size only enhances the pluses in having this organization.
The Russians have been paranoid about their borders for their 1,000 year history. One reason that the Russians wanted to control eastern Europe after WWII was to set up a buffer between them and the Germans and French, both of whom had invaded Russian in the past. Now, the American government is antagonizing the Russians by setting up alliances, missiles, and god knows what else in countries on Russia's border that were either once part of Russia or were in their sphere of influence. There is NO good reason to do this. NONE. Communism is done. Over. Kaput... We won. We should be doing everything possible to cement Russia in the West. Instead, Clinton, Bush and Obama have screwed the pooch on Russia, for no good reason at all. It's insane.
All three of them were idiots so what do you expect!!!!
"CHANGE" you can step in..... God help us...
They also wanted to create a bigger base ti advance the goals of creating a communist world. It involved more then building a buffer, or they wouldn't of violated the intent of the post war partitioning of Germany by creating a walled off new country, and trying to starve other occupying powers out of berlin; a policy that was defeated with the Berlin Airlift. Appeasing old sentiments of a failed empire and failed socio-economic system with is exactly the case with Soviet style communism and socialism is not a productive, forward way to deal with building alliances that help keep the peace. Georgia is an autonomous country and fully capable of deciding their destiny despite what countries like Russia feel about it. I contend that by waffling to a policy of appeasing the Russians here only shows we do not respect the right of countries like Georgia to make up their own minds on how they provide for defense and the common good. The Soviet Union is dead and buried and everyone has to get over it and move on with their lives; and this includes Russia.
God help us... Most of the presidents of this country in the last 100 years have been idiots!!! So many of them have bought into the "Progessiveism" line of bullschitt it isn't funny, why do you think this country is in big time decay.... Hell in a few years we will be like Haiti!!!!
"CHANGE" you can step in..... Yes, but their future has nothing to do with us. Nothing. That's the point. Our future depends more on good relationships with Russia than it does with Georgia. There isn't any good reason at all why we would risk antagonizing Russia for Georgia. No good reason at all.
You might want to first answer the question "Who has more tanks and troops, Georgia or Russia" before you make that statement?????
"CHANGE" you can step in..... Georgia doesn't qualify for NATO membership and their leader is a corrupt thug.
We have upcoming confrontations with Russia about their ridiculous claim to all of the polar sea bed for oil, and with China on what is international waters or Chinese territorial waters. So what kind of foundation to show we have the will and backbone to look at these countries eye to eye if we waffle on Georgia's desire to join NATO because we don't want to displease Russia by allowing an autonomous country to decide it's own destiny? We should work to mollify and smooth the waters as best we can in the aftermath of this country joining NATO, but we should never be intimidated by them into giving them their way. England did a great deal of appeasement to Nazi Germany before it became obvious that did more harm then good, so why should we do a similar policy of appeasing of Russia now? If they have a bee in their bonnet about this new country in NATO, let them work out this problem themselves. It belongs to Russia; it is not our problem.
Wow, you sound like a neo-con. Are you really Ferret Mike or did someone hijack the account? Seriously... When we have a vested interest in something, then we should stand up and protect it. Absolutely, 100%. We had a vested interested in defeating communism. We did whatever it took to do this. We were right in doing so. If we don't have a vested interest, we shouldn't waste our time with political positioning. We have no vested interest in Georgia. Yes, Russia is on a bad path now. My view is that they are partially on a bad path because idiot American politicians didn't completely embrace the defeat of communism in Russia and work hard to cement Russia in the west. The politicians are still thinking about things in Cold War terms because our government is completely incapable of change. Our government's lack of ability to change is what is wrong with our foreign policy, our economy, and our schools. Are your ancestors from Georgia? Is that the issue here?
I am mainly of Irish ancestry, and my Dad was a naval officer in WW II, and I have a total of nine years in the U.S. Army. I know a fair amount of history, and there is scant evidence that appeasement does anything good. It can buy you time, but it sets one up all too often to be considered weak and to be considered fair prey. Denying Georgia entry into NATO makes keeping the peace worldwide harder, not easier. This is a large reason I want us to stop being so controlled by Israel. I know that we should be making them work for and working to justify us giving them aid and military support. It is too much such a given now this is so, that they get what they want from us so much that makes us weak and manipulatable. Appeasing them at every turn is an embarrassing thing to have to watch. I say this is the entirety of NATO and the government of Georgia to decide. Georgia is divorced from Russia now. Russia it an ex-spouse of Georgia, but that only gets them sympathy for feeling pain at this entry into NATO by Georgia, not say in the matter.
Appeasing them at every turn is an embarrassing thing to have to watch. The Soviet Union was our enemy. Russia is not. Who would we be "appeasing"??? You haven't answered the basic question -- WHY is Georgia of any relevance to the U.S. at all??? They aren't. That's the point. None of this makes any sense.
My dad was in the Army Air Core for 8 years and I was in the Air Force for 4 years. But, I don't believe that we should sacrifice our future to play games with other countries. We do have strategic interests in the world and I am the first one who believes that we need to stand up for our real interests. But the U.S. government spends too much time playing "King of the Hill" and not enough time understanding the economic impact that those games are costing our society. By they way, a casual observer of our conversation would declare you the rightest and me the leftest in this discussion. Are you comfortable with that?
You make entry into NATO as just something for the U.S. to decide which is not accurate. You also ignore how their location is strategically advantageous, and that having a signatory in that part of the world helps deter aggression, not increase the danger of it happening. There are many questions and points I raise you don't answer in turn. You don't demonstrate well why we should arbitrarily deny membership to a nation that otherwise qualifies to join NATO. If NATO wants to allow Georgia in, and they want to join, there is no reason to let Russia's hissy fit about this stop that from happening.
And I respect your service and that of your Dad. I was a helicopter crew chief on a UH-1H helicopter my first enlistment, so much of my military background is as a 'rotor-head.' (As qn infantryman would describe us.)
grrr... Go back to the points I made at the beginning of thread. NATO was created to protect Europe from the Soviet Union. There is NO Soviet Union anymore. They imploded 20 years ago. So why is there still a NATO????? It's an OBSOLETE government entity -- even worse than the Post Office.
I absolutely respect yours as well. It's something that we share. Even though we are world's apart on policy.
I disagree that NATO has no mission in today's world. I understand the benefits of an alliance like it to help seamlessly and efficiently marshal several nations into a useful entity large enough to meet a challenging threat, or to deter one from manifesting. We are entering an era where more nations will have a nuclear option in terms of weapons and delivery systems, we have nations that will be going to the high ground of space and competing for resources up there, and who will learn how having the high ground out of this gravity well that is Earth offers incredible tactical advantages. You write the obit for NATO far too soon. We would be far less safe or positioned for defense, and in dealing with emerging threats in the world and beyond.
Pakistan is the most dangerous entity in the world because they do have nuclear weapons and also have radicals in the government and military. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear weapons. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. The only hereditary communist dictatorship in the word (North Korea) has nuclear weapons. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. How about India? NATO did nothing.
Pakistan is the most dangerous entity in the world because they do have nuclear weapons and also have radicals in the government and military. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. Israel has 200 to 300 nuclear weapons. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. The only hereditary communist dictatorship in the word (North Korea) has nuclear weapons. What did NATO do to prevent them from acquiring nuclear weapons? Nothing. How about India? NATO did nothing. BUT, NATO is really good at pissing the Russians off, for no good reason.
It is too much such a given now this is so, that they get what they want from us so much that makes us weak and manipulatable. Appeasing them at every turn is an embarrassing thing to have to watch. Mike,.....I would revise the Israel control reality to one of geopolitical strategics. The Globalists needed the Christians and Conservatives to remain focused on America's dreaded enemies in the form of Russia,Chi coms.....and Islam. Zionist Israel was a creation of the British East India Company Levant....a counter to Egypt,France and Damascus. The Church/Priest cast,the Banker and the Black Nobility/Family/Oligarchys are the worlds problem. until mankind terminates their power...this planet will only know terror and betrayal.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#2. To: jwpegler (#1)
"It doesn't make any senses."
#3. To: Ferret Mike (#2)
Why not?
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#4. To: jwpegler (#3)
#5. To: Ferret Mike (#4)
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#6. To: jwpegler (#5)
Instead, Clinton, Bush and Obama have screwed the pooch on Russia, for no good reason at all.
My dogs have created more shovel ready jobs than the self appointed Messiah!!! Number of shallow, inadequate, hypocritical Leftards who have me on BOZO---3.......... That means I'm doing my job correctly !!!!!!!!!
#7. To: CZ82 (#6)
All three of them were idiots so what do you expect!!!!
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#8. To: jwpegler (#5)
#9. To: jwpegler (#7)
All three of them were idiots so what do you expect!!!!
My dogs have created more shovel ready jobs than the self appointed Messiah!!! Number of shallow, inadequate, hypocritical Leftards who have me on BOZO---3.......... That means I'm doing my job correctly !!!!!!!!!
#10. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
Georgia is an autonomous country and fully capable of deciding their destiny despite what countries like Russia feel about it.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#11. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
Georgia is an autonomous country and fully capable of deciding their destiny despite what countries like Russia feel about it.
My dogs have created more shovel ready jobs than the self appointed Messiah!!! Number of shallow, inadequate, hypocritical Leftards who have me on BOZO---3.......... That means I'm doing my job correctly !!!!!!!!!
#12. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#13. To: jwpegler, CZ82 (#10)
(Edited)
#14. To: Ferret Mike (#13)
So what kind of foundation to show we have the will and backbone to look at these countries eye to eye if we waffle on Georgia's desire to join NATO because we don't want to displease Russia by allowing an autonomous country to decide it's own destiny?
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#15. To: jwpegler (#14)
"Are you really Ferret Mike or did someone hijack the account?"
#16. To: Ferret Mike (#15)
Denying Georgia entry into NATO makes keeping the peace worldwide harder, not easier.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#17. To: Ferret Mike (#15)
(Edited)
I am mainly of Irish ancestry, and my Dad was a naval officer in WW II, and I have a total of nine years in the U.S. Army.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#18. To: jwpegler (#16)
#19. To: jwpegler (#17)
My dad was in the Army Air Corp for 8 years and I was in the Air Force for 4 years.
#20. To: Ferret Mike (#18)
(Edited)
You make entry into NATO as just something for the U.S. to decide which is not accurate.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#21. To: Ferret Mike (#19)
And I respect your service and that of your Dad.
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#22. To: jwpegler (#20)
#23. To: Ferret Mike (#22)
We are entering an era where more nations will have a nuclear option in terms of weapons and delivery systems...
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#24. To: Ferret Mike (#22)
We are entering an era where more nations will have a nuclear option in terms of weapons and delivery systems...
Gold is the money of kings; silver is the money of gentlemen; barter is the money of peasants; but debt is the money of slaves.
#25. To: Ferret Mike (#15)
This is a large reason I want us to stop being so controlled by Israel. I know that we should be making them work for and working to justify us giving them aid and military support.
and here...its Not really the USA calling the shots,...but the various US admins and political partys being driven by a Globalist agenda which seeks to exploit divisions to enhance control...and to leverage fear over nations...along with the many tiers of controlled media influence.
Israel becomes leverage....and it continues...as Iran supplies China with oil and other resources,...and if cut off,...China might have to step out with her navy into the Pacific and take oil concessions..if not intimidate several country's....and bring all that to the edge as China's Navy and USN dance.
Israel is pure leverage.
There is of course some* Juice Banker power...and political..ie...USA
They are not however in control.....the Vatican and Jesuits would historically and factually have far more influence in the machina we know of as the NWO/ Globalism
The Reich in Exile/Bormann Flight Capital program built Western Europe,...set up Bilderberg,....and that* Legacy is whats driving the current Euro Banking extortion where sovereignty is yielded to Banker control.
Bormann planned for a return of the Reich in several decades via wealth and political influence.....it was Bormann and an Elite hierarchy which envisioned a unified Europe as early as 1943.
They knew the war was lost then....and planned the next decades moves.
They have succeeded.
and by the way.....the Nazi influence in America via the Republican party,CIA ,Nazi Pharma,defence experten,and Bormann Capital program which banked with Goldman Sachs,JP Morgan etc......that Corporate style*....is why you have rampant Fascism,TSA and Viper teams hauling citizens out of their vehicles inland.
They have not only grasped Europe back......You have now morphed into their Philosophy....Eugenics for example.
HG Wells wrote of the intention of the Globalists to use Zionism to create divisions,,,and to turn world opinion against Judaism.
Wells also writes at length about the same tactic in *The Shape of Things to Come...concerning Christianity and Islam.
The Globalists are fronting the image game....so that parts of the World hate Christian America for its overt military adventurism....and of course...causing people in the world to fear Islam.
Globalist could not give a RIP,...they burned Europe down in 2 world wars,...and have seeded Russia and China with newer tech and of course...nukes...to take the game to the next level.
America is in Great Danger!....and so is Israel.
God is nowhere in this picture....this is the the work of man....no Messiah's are showing up to rescue at 11:59....nor any Muckdee's for Islam.
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