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Title: Rand Paul: We Are Not All Georgians Yet
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://reason.com/blog/2011/12/05/r ... l-we-are-not-all-georgians-yet
Published: Dec 6, 2011
Author: reason.org reason.com reason.tv
Post Date: 2011-12-06 14:12:45 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 6313
Comments: 25

Jack Hunter, co-author of Sen. Rand Paul's book The Tea Party Goes to Washington, thinks that Sen. Paul saved us from war with Russia. How? By preventing a unanimous consent vote pushed by Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) from passing, a vote that would have demanded the president fight to get the republic of Georgia into NATO.

Details at the Daily Caller:

Behind the scenes, Rubio moved to have a unanimous consent vote that would have hastened Georgia’s entry into NATO. The unanimous consent vote never happened because Senator Rand Paul single-handedly prevented it.

This is not a triviality. Make no mistake: Bringing Georgia into NATO could lead to a new military conflict for the United States, which is why any move that would facilitate Georgia’s entry into the alliance should be publicly debated. Rubio’s attempt to push this through by unanimous consent — that is to say, without any formal debate or vote — is highly suspect and calls into question the senator’s better judgment.

Hunter goes on to discuss the cross-partisan forces, often led by John McCain, to more tightly link the fates of Georgia and the United States, and the danger of conflict with Russia such a link creates.

James Antle at American Spectator with more on Rand Paul, and this blocked Georgia vote:

Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida, a fellow Tea Party triumph from last year's election, had bipartisan support for an amendment to bring the former Soviet republic of Georgia into NATO. "It called for the President to lead a diplomatic effort to get approval of Georgia's Membership Action Plan during the upcoming NATO Summit in Chicago," a Rubio spokesman explained in an email.

Paul blocked the amendment. He believed that NATO expansion in this sensitive area could embroil the United States in Georgia's conflicts with a nuclear-armed Russia, potentially risking war.


Poster Comment:

Rubio sucks.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 13.

#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)

I don't understand why NATO still exists.

I certainly don't understand why these neo-commies want to piss the Russians off by moving former parts of the Soviet Union into NATO.

It doesn't make any senses.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-12-06   14:39:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: jwpegler (#1)

"It doesn't make any senses."

Why not? Is it really their fault they were overrun by the Soviets in the last part of that war in the European theater and kept part of the system of Soviet satellites by force?

I see some of the policies of NATO as being problematic, but see nothing wrong with a general alliance like this to provide standardization of doctrine and equipment, and other components useful to have in place to provide for the general defense of Europe and North America.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-12-06   16:26:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Ferret Mike (#2)

Why not?

Because the fate of Georgia has nothing whatsoever to do with America's freedom and prosperity.

Georgia became part of the Russian Empire 100 years before there was any Soviet Union.

They have never been part of the West. They have never been part of America's strategic interests. Bringing them into NATO will do nothing helpful for anyone.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-12-06   16:43:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: jwpegler (#3)

I do not concur. when and how they were subjected into the Soviet empire, even before it became that does not make them unsuitable for NATO.

Besides, NATO is just not about the interests of the U.S.A., it is about how many countries who have all got self interests can also work together to create the best defense for the common good.

We spent precious time and capital overcoming equipment incompatibilities, doctrine and command structural differences, and working out the details of alliances building a military monolith that could take on and defeat the German Nazis. This translates into lives that could of been saved on our side of the war.

I see NATO as still having value and a key role for the general defense and protection of many countries, and increasing the alliance's size only enhances the pluses in having this organization.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-12-06   17:05:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Ferret Mike (#4)

The Russians have been paranoid about their borders for their 1,000 year history.

One reason that the Russians wanted to control eastern Europe after WWII was to set up a buffer between them and the Germans and French, both of whom had invaded Russian in the past.

Now, the American government is antagonizing the Russians by setting up alliances, missiles, and god knows what else in countries on Russia's border that were either once part of Russia or were in their sphere of influence.

There is NO good reason to do this. NONE.

Communism is done. Over. Kaput... We won.

We should be doing everything possible to cement Russia in the West.

Instead, Clinton, Bush and Obama have screwed the pooch on Russia, for no good reason at all.

It's insane.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-12-06   17:15:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: jwpegler (#5)

They also wanted to create a bigger base ti advance the goals of creating a communist world. It involved more then building a buffer, or they wouldn't of violated the intent of the post war partitioning of Germany by creating a walled off new country, and trying to starve other occupying powers out of berlin; a policy that was defeated with the Berlin Airlift.

Appeasing old sentiments of a failed empire and failed socio-economic system with is exactly the case with Soviet style communism and socialism is not a productive, forward way to deal with building alliances that help keep the peace.

Georgia is an autonomous country and fully capable of deciding their destiny despite what countries like Russia feel about it.

I contend that by waffling to a policy of appeasing the Russians here only shows we do not respect the right of countries like Georgia to make up their own minds on how they provide for defense and the common good.

The Soviet Union is dead and buried and everyone has to get over it and move on with their lives; and this includes Russia.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-12-06   17:25:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Ferret Mike (#8)

Georgia is an autonomous country and fully capable of deciding their destiny despite what countries like Russia feel about it.

Yes, but their future has nothing to do with us. Nothing.

That's the point.

Our future depends more on good relationships with Russia than it does with Georgia.

There isn't any good reason at all why we would risk antagonizing Russia for Georgia.

No good reason at all.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-12-06   17:30:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: jwpegler, CZ82 (#10) (Edited)

We have upcoming confrontations with Russia about their ridiculous claim to all of the polar sea bed for oil, and with China on what is international waters or Chinese territorial waters.

So what kind of foundation to show we have the will and backbone to look at these countries eye to eye if we waffle on Georgia's desire to join NATO because we don't want to displease Russia by allowing an autonomous country to decide it's own destiny?

We should work to mollify and smooth the waters as best we can in the aftermath of this country joining NATO, but we should never be intimidated by them into giving them their way.

England did a great deal of appeasement to Nazi Germany before it became obvious that did more harm then good, so why should we do a similar policy of appeasing of Russia now?

If they have a bee in their bonnet about this new country in NATO, let them work out this problem themselves. It belongs to Russia; it is not our problem.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-12-06   18:13:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 13.

#14. To: Ferret Mike (#13)

So what kind of foundation to show we have the will and backbone to look at these countries eye to eye if we waffle on Georgia's desire to join NATO because we don't want to displease Russia by allowing an autonomous country to decide it's own destiny?

Wow, you sound like a neo-con.

Are you really Ferret Mike or did someone hijack the account?

Seriously...

When we have a vested interest in something, then we should stand up and protect it. Absolutely, 100%.

We had a vested interested in defeating communism. We did whatever it took to do this. We were right in doing so.

If we don't have a vested interest, we shouldn't waste our time with political positioning.

We have no vested interest in Georgia.

Yes, Russia is on a bad path now. My view is that they are partially on a bad path because idiot American politicians didn't completely embrace the defeat of communism in Russia and work hard to cement Russia in the west.

The politicians are still thinking about things in Cold War terms because our government is completely incapable of change. Our government's lack of ability to change is what is wrong with our foreign policy, our economy, and our schools.

Are your ancestors from Georgia? Is that the issue here?

jwpegler  posted on  2011-12-06 18:30:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 13.

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