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Title: Germany Threatens To Halt Submarine Sale to Israel
Source: SPIEGEL ONLINE
URL Source: http://www.spiegel.de/international ... ,1518,794991,00.html#ref=nlint
Published: Oct 31, 2011
Author: SPIEGEL ONLINE
Post Date: 2011-10-31 19:13:16 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 39167
Comments: 87

Germany is threatening to stop the delivery of a "Dolphin" submarine to Israel in protest over the country's settlement policies. Government sources confirmed the development when asked by SPIEGEL following speculation last week in the Israeli media that Germany might halt the sale.

The move is in response to the recent decision by the Israeli government to approve the construction of 1,100 homes in Gilo, an Arab part of Jerusalem captured from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War. The Israeli government considers the area to be a Jewish suburb, but the international community contests that description.

The threat by German Chancellor Angela Merkel has been the subject of considerable concern in Israel.

The nuclear-weapons capable Dolphin submarines are an important part of the Israeli military strategy. The navy already owns three of the submarines and two further vessels are currently being built by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft (HDW), the shipbuilding division of German steelmaker Thyssen-Krupp, in Kiel, Germany.

This summer, the German government approved €135 million ($189 million) in funding to assist Israel with the purchase of a sixth Dolphin submarine over the next four years. Now, however, that deal for the sixth submarine is in jeopardy.

In addition to its capability of firing nuclear warheads, the submarine also has a larger cruising range because of its advanced modern fuel-cell propulsion technology.

Germany has been delivering submarines to Israel since the end of the 1990s following the first Gulf War. The first two submarines given to Israel were entirely subsidized by the German government, but those subsidies are being reduced with each additional purchase. Under the current program, the government is subsidizing one-third of the cost of the submarine.

'A Five-Year Plan on Holocaust Reparations'

In January, SPIEGEL reported on a United States diplomatic cable obtained by WikiLeaks dating back to January 2005 indicating that the partial subsidization of some submarine sales could be a backchannel diplomatic response to demands for Holocaust reparations payments made by Israel at the time.

An advisor to then-prime minister Ariel Sharon informed the United States Embassy in Tel Aviv of a "five-year plan on Holocaust-era reparations, pensions and restitution." The document cited the advisor stating that the plan envisioned the Israeli government calling for Germany to take over responsibility for restitution payments that had been ignored by East Germany in the sum of around $500 million, "possibly in the form of new German-made submarines." It was a portion of a 1953 German-Israeli reparations agreement "that had been attributed to East Germany, but never paid." A member of the working group from the prime minister's office contended "that such a GOI claim would not violate any 'closure' agreements about Holocaust-era claims because it would be based on the unfulfilled portion of a pre-existing agreement."

The timing of the demand was good because in 2005, Germany and Israel celebrated 40 years of diplomatic relations. Redress also played a role in the submarine deals at the time, sources with knowledge of it confirmed to SPIEGEL in January. Then-Chancellor Gerhard Schröder approved the deal for the submarine exports during his last days in office in November 2005.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 86.

#1. To: Brian S (#0)

There is no reason why Germany or anyone else should be providing Israel with nuclear capabilities. If whatever they did to the Jews in WWII was their first mistake, enabling Israel with offensive nuke capability is their second.

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-10-31   22:02:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Pinguinite (#1)

If whatever they did to the Jews in WWII was their first mistake, enabling Israel with offensive nuke capability is their second.

The playing ground is becoming a little more equal this time around. Paybacks a bitch, ain't it?

Murron  posted on  2011-10-31   22:24:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Murron (#3)

The playing ground is becoming a little more equal this time around. Paybacks a bitch, ain't it?

It won't be Germany who pays next time. Though who knows? I think Israel has what they call a "Samson Option", named of course for the biblical character who after his capture killed himself and thousands of others by destroying the structure he was restrained in. I pretty much expect that if the day comes where Israel is facing destruction at the hands of some future army, they would simply nuke any cities of any countries they felt betrayed them just out of spite.

Whatever the Germans did to the Jews, why didn't they make Germany give up a slice of their land to make a Jewish state? Why did the Arabs and others in the ME region have to give up their land for it? How would Americans feel if the PTB's of the day decided to make Delaware into the new Jewish state?

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-11-05   12:27:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Pinguinite (#35)

"Why did the Arabs and others in the ME region have to give up their land for it? How would Americans feel if the PTB's of the day decided to make Delaware into the new Jewish state?"

The present inhabitants of the Jewish state maintain an ancient, ancestral connection to their modern homeland. A Jewish nation flourished on the territory of today’s Israel for more than a thousand years prior to mass exiles by the Roman occupiers. The pioneers of the Zionist movement felt that they were coming home, speaking the same Hebrew language that their forebears spoke, rebuilding the cities and towns that had been part of the people’s history for millennia.

When settlers arrived in North America, however, none of them suggested that they were reconnecting with some forgotten homeland, or re-establishing a national presence on the sacred soil of long-ago ancestors. They claimed America as their inheritance because they chose to live there, and toiled tirelessly and courageously to establish a beautiful society on a promising but underpopulated continent.

Long before Israelis defended themselves against invading Arab armies in their war of independence, leading international organizations recognized the right of Jews to settle there and establish a new nation. The British Empire authorized a “Jewish National Home” in today’s Israel in 1917, followed by the League of Nations, in 1923, and finally the United Nations, in 1948, with near- universal recognition of the new state.

America-haters and Israel-haters, almost always the same people, regularly denounce both nations for building their prosperity and power on genocidal crimes against indigenous inhabitants of their territory. It’s not true in either case, but in the United States the arrival of European settlers did result in an undeniable reduction in native populations, from an estimate of 3 million Native Americans when the British first arrived to less than 250,000 by 1900. (The numbers have rebounded sharply in the last century.)

By contrast, the Palestinian population never declined during the period of Jewish resettlement of the ancestral homeland; since Israeli independence, the Palestinian Arab population between the Jordan River and the sea, including Israel proper and all areas claimed by the Palestinian Authority, increased by nearly 500 percent. Even in the decade of the celebrated Palestinian refugees, 1941–50, internationally recognized population figures show a slight increase in Palestinian population in the area, from 1,111,398 to 1,172,100.

Without a historic connection to the land or endorsement by world organizations— and with the unmistakable, drastic decline of indigenous peoples as the result of American nation building—how can the United States possibly justify its right to exist?

The answer is easy, on the Fourth of July or any other occasion, as our forebears built a great nation from the ground up, then defended it with valor and determination through almost incessant warfare, and somehow managed to forge a new identity and vibrant culture in the process, assimilating idealistic immigrants from around the world.

To an amazing extent, Israelis have accomplished the same feats in a shorter time, creating a complex, dynamic society barely envisioned when resettlement began in 1880s, and even reviving an ancient and distinctive language that hadn’t been used in daily conversation for at least two millennia.

The three-dimensional actuality of its flourishing cities (with the metropolis Tel Aviv founded on desolate sand dunes in 1909), great universities, reforested hillsides, network of national parks, superhighways, and high-tech research centers, the idea of questioning the nation’s existence seems every bit as unthinkable as challenging the reality of the United States.

SOURCE

Murron  posted on  2011-11-05   14:48:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Murron (#39)

Your source is simply a commentator giving an opinion.

I also had ancestors inhabiting places on earth 3000 years ago. Does that give me the right to go back to those areas and kick out whomever might have ancestors going back only 2000, 200, or 20 years ago?

If you believe this, do you also believe in returning North America to the native Indians?

Where do you draw the line? Or are today's "Israelis" really special people above and beyond the rest of humanity?

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-11-05   15:58:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Pinguinite (#43) (Edited)

Or are today's "Israelis" really special people above and beyond the rest of humanity?

I beleive in this comparsion with all my heart, and I could ask you the same question about Europeans who conquered this land, and I do.

What is your true reason for your hate of the jewish nation, what have they ever done to you personally?

Israel is our ONLY ally in the ME, do you expect that if the jews were somehow eliminated, or uprooted and run off, that the islamic savages who are left will somehow suddenly become your best friends?

Murron  posted on  2011-11-05   16:31:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Murron (#44)

What is your true reason for your hate of the jewish nation, what have they ever done to you personally?

Hate them? I guess everyone who criticizes Israel automatically *hates* the "jewish nation", is that it?

The heavy criticism I have is that they bomb and kill innocent men, women and children. They take their land. They lobby Washington so hard that they can openly campaign for the release of a man who spied for them against the USA (no doubt in part to give assurances to current spies that should they be caught that Israel will do it's best to give them a big welcome and free citizenship in Israel), get 3 billion dollars a year in free money, much of which snakes back into campaign contributions for those who favor the country, (which is why they get so much alliances in Congress). As a US citizen, I would think that would be sufficient grounds to be "personally" affected by them.

It is very unfortunate that the Jewish faith pretty much teaches that gentiles exist to serve them. Goldi on LP told me herself long ago that Jews were not allowed to charge other Jews interest on loans. Now if whites did that, it would be considered racist, but when Jews do it, it's okay. So many christians in the US adhere to this idea that the Jews are the "chosen people", and it's very unfortunate as it enables those Jews who also believe it to disregard the rights of the rest of the world. Many Jews are not zionists and don't believe Israel should exist as a political entity. Those are the Jews I agree with.

Israel is our ONLY ally in the ME, do you expect that if the jews were somehow eliminated, or uprooted and run off, that the islamic savages who are left will somehow suddenly become your best friends?

If Israel was truly an ally of the US, then they would not be spying on the US. But again, Israel believes that the USA exists to serve them so they can operate to that end without being inhibited by conscience. So to the contrary, The US is the only ally of Israel, and if it weren't, we'd have a lot more friends in the ME since there would be much less cause for them to hate us as much as we do. Let's be clear. We don't need Israel for squat. If it disappeared overnight, there would be zero economic impact on the USA. We would still be importing and exporting all the same stuff. Our relations with the other ME countries would actually improve. I challenge anyone who thinks otherwise to give one example of how their disappearance would adversely affect the USA. No, we don't need Israel. Israel needs the USA.

I honestly believe that Israel may well be the biggest disaster the US has endured in the 2nd half of the 20th century.

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-11-05   18:12:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Pinguinite (#50)

Hate them? I guess everyone who criticizes Israel automatically *hates* the "jewish nation", is that it?

The heavy criticism I have is that they bomb and kill innocent men, women and children. They take their land.

What a bunch of shit, Neil. Are you posting this bullshit from South America while avoiding tax evasion charges?

The Jewish people bought and OWNED and developed that land from Ottoman merchants in the late 19th Century. Those Palestinians are squatters who the Israelis have graciously allowed to continue to reside. The Israelis just want to protect themselves from being bombed out of existence.

You meet every definition of a useful idiot. Are you arguing with South American authorities about why you don't need a driver's licence?

no gnu taxes  posted on  2011-11-05   18:40:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: no gnu taxes (#52)

What a bunch of shit, Neil. Are you posting this bullshit from South America while avoiding tax evasion charges?

The Jewish people bought and OWNED and developed that land from Ottoman merchants in the late 19th Century. Those Palestinians are squatters who the Israelis have graciously allowed to continue to reside. The Israelis just want to protect themselves from being bombed out of existence.

You meet every definition of a useful idiot. Are you arguing with South American authorities about why you don't need a driver's licence?

Question, gnu.... do you criticize me for what I did, or my motives for doing it? If it's my motives, then I can only assume you are all in favor of big government and a heavy police state. If you agree with my motives but criticize my actions, then I guess I'll ask you what *you* have done to try to restrain government. Anything that constitutes real action or just posted on web forums?

If you want me to rebut your comment about Israel, then keeping the subject limited to that, and not about me would be better protocol.

Other than that, I'd encourage you to not commit libel, which you basically did with the above.

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-11-05   23:26:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Pinguinite (#59)

I'd encourage you to not commit libel

Since when is asking a question libel?

no gnu taxes  posted on  2011-11-06   10:15:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: no gnu taxes, Pinguinite (#69)

"I'd encourage you to not commit libel"

"Since when is asking a question libel?"

What a self-serving, bloviating egotistical ass hole, libel your ass Neil, your own internet writing history would kick your own ass in any court of law, don't blame other's for repeating what you boasted about for years! PISHER!

Murron  posted on  2011-11-06   15:27:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Murron (#78)

What a self-serving, bloviating egotistical ass hole, libel your ass Neil, your own internet writing history would kick your own ass in any court of law, don't blame other's for repeating what you boasted about for years! PISHER!

With rants like that, you have the audacity to claim that *I* am full of hate?

With all I've done, can you name a single person whom I've ever harmed, ever?

Pinguinite  posted on  2011-11-06   18:16:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Pinguinite (#84)

She's sticking up for Boofer her Boyfriend. She saw how you routinely reduced him to a sniveling mass of Boofshit.

war  posted on  2011-11-06   18:38:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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