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Title: Jesus Statue Could Be Forced Off Montana Mountain
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: http://ksax.com/article/stories/S2341163.shtml?cat=10230
Published: Oct 23, 2011
Author: Associated Press
Post Date: 2011-10-23 19:36:43 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 72565
Comments: 97
The statue has been a curiosity to skiers at the famed Big Mountain ski hill for decades, mystifying skiers at its appearance in the middle of the woods as they cruise down a popular ski run. "This has been an illegal display. The lease should have never happened," said Gaylor. "Just because a violation is long lasting doesn't make it Rehberg, a Republican, is telling the Forest Service he agrees the historical significance outweighs other concerns. 
A statue of Jesus on U.S. Forest Service land in the mountains over a Montana ski resort faces potential eviction amid an argument over the separation of church and state.
The Forest Service offered a glimmer of hope late last week for the statue's supporters by withdrawing an initial decision to boot the Jesus statue from its hillside perch in the trees. But as it further analyzes the situation before making a final decision, the agency warned rules and court decisions are stacked against allowing a religious icon on the 25-by-25 foot patch of land.
But the Freedom From Religion Foundation isn't amused by the Jesus statue. The group argued that the Forest Service was breaching separation of church and state rules by leasing the small plot of land for the Jesus statue, and is pushing the agency to stand by its original decision to remove the religious icon.
"This has huge meaning for Americans. And if you aren't religious it has huge meaning as well," said Annie Laurie Gaylor, with the Madison, Wis.-based group. "If skiers think that it is cute, then put it up on private property. It is not cute to have a state religious association."
The local Knights of Columbus, a Catholic fraternal organization, have maintained the statue ever since members that included World War II veterans, who were inspired by religious monuments they saw while fighting in the mountains of Europe, erected the monument in the 1950s. But the group thinks the large statue made of a cement-type material is too fragile in its current state to be moved around the rugged mountainside to a different location.
The Forest Service in August initially rejected a renewal of the 10-year lease. It said the religious nature of the statue was obvious and believed it could be placed on private land as close as 2,600 feet away. The Knights have never been charged for use of the public land.
The agency, under fire from Congressman Deny Rehberg and others, announced Friday it would withdraw that decision and open the issue again to public comment. It said a notification that the statue is eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places could help - but is far from a guarantee it can stay.
Gaylor, with the group fighting the statue, called it a "ruse and a sham" to consider it an historic marker.
historic. It makes it historically bad. It makes it worse. It makes it all the more reason to get rid of it."
Bill Glidden, Grand Knight of the Kalispell Council, recently submitted the request asking the Forest Service to change its mind. He stressed the historical significance of the statue to the Whitefish, and believes it honors the memory of the veterans who installed it.
"We would like to see it stay there. The community would like to see it say there," Glidden said. "It's more than just a religious icon, it is a memorial to our vets."
"The Forest Service's denial of the lease defies common sense. Using a tiny section of public land for a war memorial with religious themes is not the same as establishing a state religion," Rehberg said in a statement. "That's true whether it's a cross or a Star of David on a headstone in the Arlington National Cemetery, an angel on the Montana Vietnam Memorial in Missoula or a statue of Jesus on Big Mountain."
The Forest Service in its original decision pointed to case law stacked against such a statue, and argues rules prevent the federal government from favoring or promoting religion. The Knights were ordered in that August letter to have a removal plan in place by the end of the year, and must have the statue moved and the site restored in a year.
Phil Sammon, media coordinator for the Forest Service's Northern Region, said the agency is carefully looking at the issue.
"We absolutely understand the local importance and local history of this statue," he said. "That's what makes this a complicated issue."
Whitefish resident Bob Brown, a former state legislator and Montana secretary of state, said the issue dominated talk at his American Legion meeting this week. He said residents, few old enough to remember a time when it wasn't there, don't understand the turmoil.
"We all agreed around the table this is a tempest in a teapot. This is making trouble for us in our little community. Why don't they just leave us alone?" Brown said. "We are accustomed to it. It is part of our tradition here. So we are thinking, `why does anyone want to tear that down."'
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#58. To: buckeroo (#57)
I thought you weren't coming back. Is it harder then giving up booze?
I am smoking a cocaine rock of the purest origin upon the planet. And you worry about booze? What is the matter with you? Are you really a DUMBFUCK?
Here. I'll help you keep your word.
You are lazy and blind. I did in post #34, 'BETWEEN THE NOTATION MARKS,' dumbshit. Learn how to read.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Or are you so ill educated you don't comprehend the word 'thereof?'
What did you do? Ban buckeroo?
You are lazy and blind. I did in post #34, 'BETWEEN THE NOTATION MARKS,' dumbshit. Learn how to read. Hey dumbshit. Like I said. You posted 3 words then twisted the meaning. You're not an honest person. Here is all you offered. You must be offended by the constitution. You're an Obama groupie what would you expect. Your quote "this statue impedes 'the free exercise of religion' " Now dummy. Taking the statue down "impedes the free exercise of religion". Dumb ass.
When people talk like that to me they get the axe. Temporarily or permanently. Besides he is a crack head. He admitted it.
Look up the word "or". You're welcome.
You repeatedly show you don't know much about how case law works and what a legal precedent is. So it's no surprise the meaning of the First Amendment seems to go over your head. It is pointless discussing this issue with you. As for the bait and insults, they have nothing to add to the discussion. There is no point in either of us engaging each other that way. It is just a waste of time, and it doesn't add anything to a dialog on anything.
I don't give a shit about precedent. I care about what the document ACTUALLY SAYS! Not some asshole usurpers spin on it. Comprende?
This is off topic. Stay on topic.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Stare_decisis You don't understand. Your opinion does not change the way the legal system works. You are always welcome to have your opinion on the system or stare decisis, but you are taking issue when people explain it as well as support it. You may not like the system of creating consistency and fairness in the legal system this way, but your opinion does not change reality. Je le comprende, mec. Le probleme est tu ne le comprende jamais.
Likewise, I am sure.
That isn't in the constitution. Unconstitutional. The constitution means what it says. Says what it means. All spin by the freaks in black robes is subject to being overturned. For example. The interstate commerce clause doesn't mean the government can do whatever it wants to. The General Welfare clause doesn't mean that either. I hope for a Gadaffi like fate to those who are presently destroying and perverting the constitution. Think Obama and his masters.
You should really take the time to learn the topic. others and myself have tried to explain this topic to you, but you don't want to listen. That is your choice; as is mine to not want to try to show you over and over again where you are not comprehending how the U.S. Constitution works and it's relation to the legal system. Your argument has no standing with me because I have spent a great deal of time in school and in doing activism where I've learned how the Constitution and legal system works, how it affects what I care about, advocate and what it's faults and graces are. I'm sure there is an institution of higher learning near you that allows folks to enroll in classes that deal with the high court and the U.S. Constitution.
There's nothing in the USCON which establishes uniform rules of interpretation. When a controversy arises, whether it's based on statutory, common or constitutional law, in deciding the case, a judge will always consider previous similar cases in making his or her decision. The Framers make reference after reference to Blackstone and other, lesser legal authorities, in their deliberations: But here a very natural, and very material, question arises: how are these customs or maxims to be known, and by whom is their validity to be determined? The answer is, by the judges in the several courts of justice. They are the depositaries of the laws; the living oracles, who must decide in all cases of doubt, and who are bound by an oath to decide according to the law of the land. The knowledge of that law is derived from experience and study; from the viginti annorum lucubrationes [war: iirc, the learning of life or lifelong learning], which Fortescue mentions; and from being long persoually accustomed to the judicial decisions of their predecessors. And indeed these judicial decisions are the principal and most authoritative evidence, that can be given, of the existence of such a custom as shall form a part of the common law. The judgment itself, and all the proceedings previous thereto, are carefully registered and preserved, under the name of records, in public repositories set apart for that particular purpose; and to them frequent recourse is had, when any critical question arises, in the determination of which former precedents may give light or assistance. And therefore, even so early as the conquest, we find the præteritorum memoria eventorum [iirc, the memory of previous events] reckoned up as one of the chief qualifications of those, who were held to be legibus patriæ optime instituti [teachers or deciders of law, I think]. For it is an established rule to abide by former precedents, where the same points come again in litigation: as well to keep the scale of justice even and steady, and not liable to waver with every new judge’s opinion; as also because the law in that case being solemnly declared and determined, what before was uncertain, and perhaps indifferent, is now become a permanent rule, which it is not in the breast of any subsequent judge to alter or vary from according to his private sentiments: he being sworn to determine, not according to his own private judgement, but according to the known laws and customs of the land; not delegated to pronounce a new law, but to maintain and expound the old one. Blackstone, Commentaries of the Laws of England Stare decisis in contract law is why, when someone rips you off by not paying you for work, you have legal recourse to collect and, possibly, punish.
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
I know the concept. The constitution has been destroyed.
Three dimensional representations of Jesus are a heresy condemned by the Christian councils.
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
The constitution can be intrepreted with a dictionary. People are liars. They lie about what it says. That is how you get precedents that pervert it. For example you don't know what "no law" means. Then you spin it. I know there are judges who put great thought and deliberation into a case. Then they write an opinion on it. That is fine. But today we are in the place where these "precedents" have been put in place and have made the constitution say things that it CLEARLY isn't saying. So if you read the constitution use that as your basis then you can get to the TRUTH is something violates it or not. If you are willing to be honest with yourself.
"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that 'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law." Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody."
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
Who cares what some council says. What does the Bible say? You might have a point. I know what you are referring to, about making a likeness or something. I don't think that is a problem if you are not worshiping a statue. Show me the text and I would be happy to read it and see if it alters my opinion.
Interesting. I don't believe it though. How about quoting the text Jefferson was referring to. Jefferson was great but not perfect.
The Old testament says you should be killed for making graven (Old English word for engraved, carved, 3D) images. See the 10 Commandments. Seriously, for someone who comes across as some holy roller type you are ignorant of your own book of faith. The Second Commandment reads: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4)
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
The new "blackstone" isn't the same as it was back then from my understanding. I understand that many things have been changed. What I am mainly trying to say is that they have perverted the constitution with "precedents". Two that are quite obvious are "the interstate commerce clause" and the General welfare clause. Here let me give you an honesty test. Is the interstate commerce clause interpreted correctly through the precedents that the black asshole robes have established?
Jefferson was great but not perfect. "This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
Wherein the USCON does it so claim? That's your argument, afterall. For example you don't know what "no law" means. Then you spin it. That's a lie. I know exactly what NO LAW means. It means any law that is directly legislated or inferred from legislation that puts religion squarely in the public domain. I gave a perfect example of why your narrow [minded] interpretation is wholly against the spirit of the Framers' meaning. You wholly ignore the writings of Madison, who not only uses that same word "separation" but went so far as to even state that religious proclamations of the executive offend the 1st amendment as do chaplains in the legislature and military. The Framers wanted public discourse FREE from the BOUNDS of religion. Religion was a matter of the PRIVATE CONSCIENCE not PUBLIC. Here's a pop quiz...in 20 words or less, why did Virginia pass a religious freedom act in 1786?
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
See the 10 Commandments. Seriously, for someone who comes across as some holy roller type you are ignorant of your own book of faith. The Second Commandment reads: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth" (Exodus 20:4) First. I am talking about the government stopping people from doing what they want when they harm no one. Second. having a debate on graven images and how a christian should view that is a fine discussion to have. I would also add that Jesus came to the earth as a man. He was flesh and blood too like us. So as I see it right now, this wouldn't apply. I am not entrenched in this position by any means. I don't make graven images by the way. Taking what you said. An argument could be made that because of "church and state" the government is enforcing the 10 commandments and the statue should remain. That argument could be made. You know lawyers can argue anything.
Wherein the USCON does it so claim? That's your argument, afterall. Your argument is akin to me saying Obama can't be President because his name isn't in the constitution. Get a dictionary out and look up commerce. Then look up interstate. Then look up regulate. Then you will have the meaning of the interstate clause. It doesn't mean some African from Kenya can come here and make us buy healthcare. That is a huge stretch and if you are honest you will admit it.
Madison was a great man. But they didn't ratify the Federalist papers. Those were working documents that were discussed. Then the peoples representatives voted the actual constitution. Don't get me wrong they do shed light on certain things.
I know. That is "God" is carved in stone everywhere up there. The constitutions first phrase acknowledges God. Asking for a blessing. Blessings only come from God.
Be honest, that statue is put there as a way to influence or show the power of your particular faith over those of others. It is a statement of influence as much as anything else.
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
To show power. I don't think so, honestly. To have an influence..sure, so what.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." That is some spin on your part equating the term blessing in the preamble with proof of a theocratic acceptance of the Constitution. I tell you what, I will accept that interpretation of the preamble by you if you accept that the Founding Fathers wrote into the Constitution a pro activist govt with a pro welfare agenda (promote the general Welfare).
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
That statement makes 0 sense. What I am mainly trying to say is that they have perverted the constitution with "precedents". And you've provided 0 examples of why you believe this that is rooted in any sense of an objective standpoint. The only case that you have made is that it has been, in your opinion, "perverted" [sic] from the standpoint of your own biases. Here let me give you an honesty test. Is the interstate commerce clause interpreted correctly through the precedents that the black asshole robes have established? This Article I clause, inadvertantly, stands as a check against laissez faire capitalism which is why SCOTUS decisions are often under assault. Its intent was to maintain fair access among states and individuals transacting interstate to interstate conveyance and interstate movement of commodities to avoid monopolies. My answer to your question then, is no. On the other hand, were you to argue that the Congress, through legislation, and the executive, through regulation or adminstrative law, often misapply the legislative or adminstrative powers implicit in this clause, you'd get no disagreement from me.
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
The "first phrase" of the USCON is "We the People"... That said, it makes quite clear what blessings they wished to secure....the blessings of LIBERTY.
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
Only if you have a second grader's sense of logic. Your argument is that since stare decisis isn't in the USCON so therefore it cannot be used as a means of deciding cases. You then claim that you can use a dictionary. I properly pointed out that method is not in the USCON either. Your turn. Get a dictionary out and look up commerce. Then look up interstate. Then look up regulate. Then you will have the meaning of the interstate clause. What you would have to "look up" for each and every one of those words is their 18th century definition. And trust me when I tell you that you would not like the 18th century definition of "regulate" - especially when it comes to 2A. "Regulate" in 18th century dictionaries had "correct by control" and "adjust into a standard purpose" as elements of its definition. And what is to stop you or me or Harvey Fuerstein from publishing our own dictionaries?
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
The preamble also states govt should take an activist role in promoting the general welfare of the people - yet I don't see A K A arguing for that kind of govt? What gives?
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
The Federalist is contemporary to the USCON only and thus predates the Bill of Rights and explicitly argues the merits of Articles 1-VII only. IN fact, #84 argues against the inclusion of a Bill of Rights.
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
Jefferson was a big believer in that phrase being effective law. It's why he promoted uniform public education in the US and why he undertook the Louisiana Purchase.
I'll believe that a corporation is a person 1 second after Texas executes one...
#59. To: A K A Stone (#58)
#60. To: buckeroo (#59)
#61. To: A K A Stone (#42)
"Still you refuse to quote from the first amendment to make your case. You spin and twist........in the wind."
#62. To: A K A Stone (#60)
this statue impedes 'the free exercise of religion' by implying a preference of one religion over another by giving Christianity a spot to advertise and imply their faith is better then all others.
#63. To: A K A Stone, buckeroo (#60)
Here. I'll help you keep your word.
#64. To: Ferret Mike (#61)
"Still you refuse to quote from the first amendment to make your case. You spin and twist........in the wind."
#65. To: Fred Mertz (#63)
What did you do? Ban buckeroo?
#66. To: Ferret Mike (#62)
#67. To: A K A Stone (#64)
#68. To: Ferret Mike (#67)
You repeatedly show you don't know much about how case law works and what a legal precedent is. So it's no surprise the meaning of the First Amendment seems to go over your head.
#69. To: Ferret Mike (#67)
It is pointless discussing this issue with you. As for the bait and insults, they have nothing to add to the discussion. There is no point in either of us engaging each other that way. It is just a waste of time, and it doesn't add anything to a dialog on anything.
#70. To: A K A Stone (#68)
(Edited)
Stare decisis (Anglo-Latin pronunciation: /Èst[Yri dhÈsajshs]) is a legal principle by which judges are obliged to respect the precedents established by prior decisions. The words originate from the phrasing of the principle in the Latin maxim Stare decisis et non quieta movere: "to stand by decisions and not disturb the undisturbed."[1] In a legal context, this is understood to mean that courts should generally abide by precedents and not disturb settled matters.[1]
#71. To: A K A Stone (#69)
"This is off topic. Stay on topic."
#72. To: Ferret Mike (#70)
stare decisis
#73. To: A K A Stone (#72)
"That isn't in the constitution. Unconstitutional."
#74. To: A K A Stone (#72)
That isn't in the constitution. Unconstitutional.
#75. To: Ferret Mike (#73)
#76. To: A K A Stone, Ferret Mike (#75)
#77. To: war (#74)
There's nothing in the USCON which establishes uniform rules of interpretation.
#78. To: A K A Stone, war (#74)
Blackstone, Commentaries of the Laws of England
#79. To: Godwinson (#76)
Three dimensional representations of Jesus are a heresy condemned by the Christian councils.
#80. To: Godwinson (#78)
#81. To: A K A Stone, war (#79)
What does the Bible say? You might have a point. I know what you are referring to, about making a likeness or something. I don't think that is a problem if you are not worshiping a statue. Show me the text and I would be happy to read it and see if it alters my opinion.
#82. To: war, Ferret Mike, Godwinson (#74)
The Framers make reference after reference to Blackstone and other, lesser legal authorities, in their deliberations:
#83. To: A K A Stone (#80)
Interesting. I don't believe it though. How about quoting the text Jefferson was referring to.
#84. To: A K A Stone (#77)
The constitution can be intrepreted with a dictionary.
#85. To: Godwinson (#81)
The Old testament says you should be killed for making graven (Old English word for engraved, carved, 3D) images.
#86. To: war (#84)
The constitution can be intrepreted with a dictionary.
#87. To: war (#84)
I gave a perfect example of why your narrow [minded] interpretation is wholly against the spirit of the Framers' meaning. You wholly ignore the writings of Madison, who not only uses that same word "separation" but went so far as to even state that religious proclamations of the executive offend the 1st amendment as do chaplains in the legislature and military.
#88. To: war (#84)
The Framers wanted public discourse FREE from the BOUNDS of religion. Religion was a matter of the PRIVATE CONSCIENCE not PUBLIC.
#89. To: A K A Stone, war (#87)
#90. To: Godwinson (#89)
Be honest, that statue is put there as a way to influence or show the power of your particular faith over those of others. It is a statement of influence as much as anything else.
#91. To: A K A Stone, war (#88)
The constitutions first phrase acknowledges God. Asking for a blessing. Blessings only come from God.
#92. To: A K A Stone (#82)
The new "blackstone" isn't the same as it was back then from my understanding. I understand that many things have been changed.
#93. To: A K A Stone (#88)
(Edited)
The constitutions first phrase acknowledges God. Asking for a blessing. Blessings only come from God.
#94. To: A K A Stone (#86)
Your argument is akin to me saying Obama can't be President because his name isn't in the constitution.
#95. To: war, A K A Stone (#94)
#96. To: A K A Stone (#87)
#97. To: Godwinson (#95)
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