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Title: An indecent proposal
Source:
Daily Kos
URL Source: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/ ... /1021032/-An-indecent-proposal
Published: Oct 3, 2011
Author: Hunter
Post Date: 2011-10-03 15:57:49 by Ferret Mike
Keywords: None
Views: 3268
Comments: 13
Conservatives seem to think they've stumbled on a very clever argument, which is that people who want taxes raised on the wealthy should just donate money instead and let the various more greedy sons-of-bitches in America continue on as usual. Ha ha! Take that, you intellectuals! First off, I note that Grover Norquist is too cheap to spring for a stamp, indicating that the total sum Mr. Norquist is willing to invest in his clever scheme is considerably less than one dollar. And I don't expect Norquist particularly gives a damn if someone points out that his solution is, shall we say, spurious, because most of what Grover Norquist does in life is come up with spurious arguments as to why wealthy Americans should be held to different standards than other Americans, when it comes time to support their own government, and why government itself should exist solely as greaser of corporate wheels, and to hell with all of the rest of it. Rather than a long, drawn-out explanation of the basic economic principles of taxation, then, since Norquist neither cares about such things nor has any understanding of them, I'm going to counter-propose my own entirely spurious plan. And I think it's one Grover Norquist could get behind. My proposal is that we make taxes for wealthy Americans and corporations entirely optional. That's it. If a corporation wants to pay zero percent in taxes, they should be allowed to, and if they want to pay the full tax rate, that is also allowed. The same for wealthy Americans. The only caveat is that non-contributing corporations and individuals will be barred from taking advantage of any government services. It is the perfect free-market-based opt-out: If you do not want to support the American infrastructure and population to the same extent that your fellow citizens do, you can simply decline to, and live your life as the libertarian god you have always longed to be. You will be free! You will be allowed to go Galt, or not go Galt, to whatever degree you wish; as a special bonus, we shall prevent you from becoming that most dreaded of figures, the parasite, since if you are not contributing to the benefit of society it only stands to reason you should not gain profit from it either. For starters, companies that do not pay the going tax rate will be barred from shipping their products on American roads. They will be prevented from connecting to the American electric grid, or from using municipal water or sewer systems. Instead, they will have to provide these services on-site. The good news: They can feel free to pollute as much as they like, as long as no pollution crosses the boundaries of their property (above, below or horizontally) into the rest of America. That would be considered an act of war. Wealthy Americans that opted out of paying the going tax rate would also, of course, be prohibited from using American roads. This would not be a problem for them, as they generally can afford airplanes or helicopters, which would be similarly fine so long as they did not use American airspace (sorry, but the FAA costs money too, you know). But they could certainly fly around the property, which might be a pleasant experience. Then we must consider the issue of security. Fire and police protection would be right out, so there would be no particular incentive for poorer Americans not to loot their properties (wealthy Americans tend to have nicer things than the rest of us). The American elite might consider the approach taken by wealthy Mexican families, which is to install a high perimeter fence around the property with a heavily armed private guard service. This would be expensive and unsightly, but it would be up to each individual to decide, for themselves, what the appropriate free-market level of protection for their own property might be. My one tip would be to spend a good deal of time on that decision. It goes without saying that non-contributing Americans, corporate or otherwise, would not have access to the courts. This should be fine with them, since we know that meddlesome lawsuits are the biggest non-tax-related threat to America today. There is the minor issue of no recourse, if armed mercenaries do manage to overpower your guards and make off with your antique commodes or whatever it is you rich people hoard these days: Again, though, think of the tax savings. Some government functions are a bit harder to parcel out. Food safety efforts, for example. I'm not worried about the safety of your products, since they won't actually be leaving your factories. But the food you eat, that has been through cursory tests for safety—how do we price that service? An individual tax on food testing for Americans that choose to not support their government is one option, but I suppose a tax is a tax, and probably that would be frowned upon as well. The same with government standards for an array of potentially dangerous products. We have already discussed elsewhere how weather reports represent something akin to uber-socialism; we may want to pull the plug on all communications whatsoever, since the government has its meddlesome hand in all of it, deciding which frequencies should be reserved for which products. All of that would have to be worked out. A true libertarian would live on a completely isolated plot of land, with not so much as the light from a public street lamp crossing their pristine border of Freedom. That does sound like a fine way to reduce government, though: Reduce it one freedom-loving soul at a time. If wider society wants some government function that a smaller political segment of the population emphatically does not want, like bridges that do not collapse when you cross them, the liberty lovers can cross the goddamn river the old way, by swimming for it and hoping for the best. The natural libertarian response to all of this is that the rich could perhaps opt into a pay-as-you-go scheme, similar to the sales tax. If you pay no taxes, you could still drive on public roads but only by paying rather hefty a per-mile toll; you could still gain police protection, but as a pay-to-use service. Yes, the rest of us took a vote on that. We refuse. We simply can't create an entire national infrastructure on the off chance that you might use one road, or need electricity in one location, or have law enforcement everywhere you might ever go on the off chance that you might go there, or field an entire military on the slight chance that another country might declare war on you and your mansion and nothing else. It's not cost efficient. That is why the rest of us do these things together. Opt in, or opt out. Now this, I think the rest of us could get behind. I have always wondered what would happen if the libertarians among us took themselves up on their own threats, and started to live entirely independent from accouterments of the country they claim to be so very independent from. Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous would become a much, much more interesting reality show once you added malaria or smallpox to the mix. I continue to have the sneaking suspicion that anti-government types are not in fact anti-government at all, but simply greedy, self-important little bastards looking for any excuse not to support their nation, their neighbors, or anything they cannot directly own: I base this on their insistence that they must have the government do X, Y or Z for them while all the while caterwauling about how they will not pay for it. And if the issue is tax rates, and that the rich and poor should be taxed the exact same dollar amount because that would be fair? Yes, fucketh that. There is nothing that says the free market is fair; the free market says that the proper price for something is the maximum amount a person will pay for that thing. The free market would dictate that we crank tax rates on the rich up as high as we can before wealthy Americans decide to flee the country in droves, and then set it one bare dollar below that point. In previous generations, the rate was 50 percent, or as much as 90 percent, and very few of the whiners actually left. I remain quite confident that we could return to Clinton-era or Reagan-era rates without causing a mass exodus of rich, unpatriotic assholes, no matter how badly they might complain. Thus is my entirely spurious, nonsensical argument, Mr. Norquist. If you are interested, you may sign on. Please note that I have not enclosed a stamp because I do not really give a crap. Oh, and while we're talking about things that only exist due to the largess of the government: Get the hell off our internet, Mr. Grover Norquist.
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#1. To: Ferret Mike (#0)
....ZZZZZzzzzzzz. Oh, its just the midget muttering again, pay it no mind....
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
What would The Gipper do? Of course, what this shows is that the Commie Socialist Red Ronald Reagan wouldn't have a prayer of being nominated in today's GOP.
It is alleged that income taxes are "voluntary." Why not make them so, for all Americans, all corporations? That'll certainly force the U.S. government to quit blowing money on all the welfare/warfare programs... and it would be Constitutional! [GASP!] No, we can't have that, though... because then all of your pet-programs would have to survive (or die) on their own merits... And God knows, you DON'T want that!
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... I support a revamping of the tax code, but I do not advocate for the end of a Federal Income Tax. I support the proposals to increase the tax rate for wealthier Americans and agree that they should help more in these bad economic times.
Clearly, you're NOT a "wealthier American," or you'd be singing a completely different tune... You see, those of us who have worked our ASSES off to get where we are, have devoted a lot of our time, our effort and our MONEY to get to that point. In other words, like any business, we have invested resources, with the expectation of a return for the sacrifices that we made. And to have some limp-dick wannabe like YOU come along, and demand more of OUR money, that you didn't work for, didn't invest anything into, and now DEMAND because you were too stupid, too LAZY, to better yourself, is not the problem of those of us who HAVE worked our asses off... You scum-bag leftists think that, because you want something, you can just TAKE it. Think again, you miserable parasite. NOT gonna' happen.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... "Whenver the dwarf sees something negative about a Democrat, he tries to change the topic of the thread to something else. Usually a personal attack, followed by mutterings about correct 'grammar' 'spelling' whatever. Anything he can think of to avoid a discussion about a Democrat screwing up or looking bad. It's a decade long pattern." --Badeye observation--
As I see it, the weathiest people here want to take as much as they can even if it destroys the Middle Class. Union rights, pentions, a living wage that provides real security and a future for the kids of workers, they support it. They have to do more then sit on their money trying to play political leverage games by doing so, to earn my sympathy as someone who allegedly can create jobs to get any sympathy from me on this point. If these people were smart, they would be proving their contention they need low taxes to create jobs by actually doing so to take the wind out of the sales of the 'tax the rich' advocacy. Their attempt to bully or buy their way out of this mess is only goig to help them lose on this issue. As Elizabeth Warren said very well, "nobody gets rich on their own efforts alone." The wealthy have an obligation to pony up at the same level as lower income people. And I predict that at the end of this process they will be doing so.
That's not what I said, and you know it. I said you're demanding something that does NOT belong to you, simply because you WANT it. You didn't WORK for it. You didn't INVEST for it. You didn't sacrifice ANYTHING for it. Yet you WANT it... and in your collectivist mind, that's all that matters. If you WANT something, go EARN it. Don't want to EARN it? Then LIVE with the consequences of the choices you made. It really is that simple, and all your gyrations won't alter that. The rest of your tripe, BTW, I didn't bother to read; when you can't make it a single sentence without lying, then the rest of your response is unworthy of consideration.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... "Whenver the dwarf sees something negative about a Democrat, he tries to change the topic of the thread to something else. Usually a personal attack, followed by mutterings about correct 'grammar' 'spelling' whatever. Anything he can think of to avoid a discussion about a Democrat screwing up or looking bad. It's a decade long pattern." --Badeye observation--
In other words, like any business, we have invested resources, with the expectation of a return for the sacrifices that we made. No one has a problem with that, dummy. But, there is a problem with those who have power exploiting that power to get richer, at the expense of those they exploit. For instance, bribing politicians, paying shit wages, bullying employees to work overtime for free, etc.
------------------------------------- As usual, you go from one barrage of insults to the next one. Money should be spread out to fertilize the feilds of the farm of commerce, not be horded into a stinky manure pile doing nothing to help this country, it's people or the economy. Like John Kennedy sain in his inaugural address; "If we cannot help the many who are poor, we cannot save the few who are rich."
VERY good... I used small words, so your lips wouldn't get tired... Hmmm... that's a very slippery slope you're describing... OK, I'm with you on this. You're out to lunch on this. If an employer pays too little, the employees leave, when they find better pay. Ultimately, the employer must raise wages, to have a work-force, or they go out of business. It's called the "labor market," dummy... See my point above. Also, that's what the NLRB is all about. If you feel you're being overworked, then you have a place to voice your complaint... And since most government watchdog agencies are having their funds cut, they're hungry to impose fines on those companies that break the law... So you start out venting on a subject which you clearly haven't thought all the way through, and we eventually get down to agreeing on "it's bad that rich people pay off politicians." But keep at it... you're making progress.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... "Whenver the dwarf sees something negative about a Democrat, he tries to change the topic of the thread to something else. Usually a personal attack, followed by mutterings about correct 'grammar' 'spelling' whatever. Anything he can think of to avoid a discussion about a Democrat screwing up or looking bad. It's a decade long pattern." --Badeye observation--
You flatter yourself. I'm calling you out on your gross ignorance of business. As determined by who? YOU? Don't make me laugh. The fertilizer you spread comes out the back end of a cow. Aha, government programs! People- entrepreneurs, businessmen, risk-takes, investors... ARE the economy. YOU think that your oh-so-Holy government can do better, make better decisions, decide what technology will work, what systems will be most efficient??? Get a GRIP. Aha... nice try. Let's try "a rising tide lifts ALL boats." Beelzabubba Clinton.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... "Whenver the dwarf sees something negative about a Democrat, he tries to change the topic of the thread to something else. Usually a personal attack, followed by mutterings about correct 'grammar' 'spelling' whatever. Anything he can think of to avoid a discussion about a Democrat screwing up or looking bad. It's a decade long pattern." --Badeye observation--
Nah, I'm juat engaged in a game that is more boring then talking to a parrot. I am not going to waste time on your game of 'Let's make a Bait.' For one thing, Monty Hall you are not. If you can't substitute the propagandizing to sell an image of me as an alleged socialist/commie/whatever with facts and arguments, you will get no response. You know as well as I do my political skin is too tough to be bothered by the trivialities of your ad hominem based rants. So you just want to engage in a game to use me sa a rhetorical foil to paint pictures for potential forum lurkers. I'll always try talking to you time to time Eric to see if you have settled down and learned how to play nice in forum. But you are not interested in that, so no more wasted time on you. ;-)
Aha.... THAT explains your long-winded rant. Thanks for the laughs! DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... "Whenver the dwarf sees something negative about a Democrat, he tries to change the topic of the thread to something else. Usually a personal attack, followed by mutterings about correct 'grammar' 'spelling' whatever. Anything he can think of to avoid a discussion about a Democrat screwing up or looking bad. It's a decade long pattern." --Badeye observation--
dailykos
#2. To: Ferret Mike (#0)
(Edited)
#3. To: Ferret Mike (#0)
My proposal is that we make taxes for wealthy Americans and corporations entirely optional.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35
#4. To: Capitalist Eric (#3)
#5. To: Ferret Mike (#4)
I support the proposals to increase the tax rate for wealthier Americans...
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#6. To: Capitalist Eric (#5)
#7. To: Ferret Mike (#6)
As I see it, the weathiest people here want to take as much as they can even if it destroys the Middle Class.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#8. To: Capitalist Eric (#5)
You see, those of us who have worked our ASSES off to get where we are, have devoted a lot of our time, our effort and our MONEY to get to that point.
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#9. To: Capitalist Eric (#7)
(Edited)
#10. To: Biff Tannen (#8)
No one has a problem with that, dummy.
there is a problem with those who have power exploiting that power to get richer, at the expense of those they exploit.
For instance, bribing politicians,
paying shit wages,
bullying employees to work overtime for free, etc.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#11. To: Ferret Mike (#9)
As usual, you go from one barrage of insults to the next one.
Money should be spread out to fertilize the feilds of the farm of commerce,
not be horded into a stinky manure pile doing nothing to help this country,
it's people or the economy.
Like John Kennedy sain in his inaugural address; "If we cannot help the many who are poor, we cannot save the few who are rich."
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#12. To: Capitalist Eric (#11)
"You flatter yourself..."
#13. To: Ferret Mike (#12)
You know as well as I do my political skin is too tough to be bothered by the trivialities of your ad hominem based rants.
;^)
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
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