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Title: ACLU objects to killing of al Qaeda leader
Source:
The Hill
URL Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief ... -to-killing-of-al-qaeda-leader
Published: Sep 30, 2011
Author: Erik Wasson
Post Date: 2011-09-30 12:40:46 by Sebastian
Keywords: None
Views: 125826
Comments: 179
The American Civil Liberties Union has objected to the killing of the U.S.-born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen by U.S. forces. Awlaki was a U.S. citizen, and the ACLU said President Obama does not have the authority to kill an American without due process of law. The White House confirmed the cleric was killed by a U.S. drone attack. “The targeted killing program violates both U.S. and international law,” ACLU Deputy Legal Director Jameel Jaffer said. “As we’ve seen today, this is a program under which American citizens far from any battlefield can be executed by their own government without judicial process, and on the basis of standards and evidence that are kept secret not just from the public but from the courts.” The ACLU said the government only has the authority to kill Americans when a threat is imminent. “It is a mistake to invest the president — any president — with the unreviewable power to kill any American whom he deems to present a threat to the country,” Jaffer said. Ben Wizner, litigation director of the ACLU’s National Security Project, added: “If the Constitution means anything, it surely means that the president does not have unreviewable authority to summarily execute any American whom he concludes is an enemy of the state.” Obama’s actions also garnered criticism from GOP presidential candidate Rep. Ron Paul (Texas).
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#67. To: nolu chan (#59)
You asked me a question which I determined would require one of a "yes" or a "no" in response and, after such determination was made, I then answered it. Why were you expecting a point to be made?
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If you stick to humor like this, you're ok in my book.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
In 1801, President Jefferson denied the authority of himself, as president, to take offensive action without the sanction of Congress. On September 20, 2001, President G.W. Bush said to the nation before a joint session of Congress, "we will meet violence with patient justice." Senator Byrd stated in the Senate on October 1, 2001, "First, the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack. It was not the intent of Congress to give the President unbridled authority—I hope it wasn’t—to wage war against terrorism writ large without the advice and consent of Congress. That intent was made clear when Senators modified the text of the resolution proposed by the White House to limit the grant of authority to the September 11 attack." Senator Byrd, on October 20, 2001, read the White House proposed draft of the AUMF nto the record and pointed out how the Senate had rejected that open-ended language and deliberately changed it and narrowed it. Sen. Byrd explained, "the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack. It was not the intent of Congress to give the President unbridled authority—I hope it wasn’t—to wage war against terrorism writ large without the advice and consent of Congress. That intent was made clear when Senators modified the text of the resolution proposed by the White House to limit the grant of authority to the September 11 attack." Senators Warner and Wellstone thanked Sen. Byrd for placing the White House proposed legislation directly into the Congressional Record. Senator Warner commented, "The final resolution we adopted provided that the authority granted to the President is to respond to the attack of September 11—not to some unspecified future attacks but to that particular attack of September 11." Senator Wellstone commented, "I thought it was too broad, too open ended. I think Senator LEVIN did say this, but while you were busy on that appropriations bill, Senator LEVIN was one of the key Senators—along with staff—who really did yeomen’s work to try to have that resolution focus on the September 11 attacks. It was entirely different wording." In 2002, President George W. Bush sought authorization to use military force against Iraq. The resulting joint resolution contained the following: Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens; And the Congressional Record for October 9, 2002 shows: Of course, if the AUMF of 2001 actually was an open-ended grant of power as some claim, then there would have been no need for President Bush to seek any resolution to invade Iraq, nor for Congress to debate it at great length. In a letter of August 7, 2002 in response to an inquiry by Sen. Byrd, William Van Alstyne of Duke University School of Law rendered his opinion: In a letter of July 31, 2002 in response to an inquire by Sen. Byrd, Laurance H. Tribe of Harvard University Law School rendered his opinion: Excerpts from the Congressional Record re Authorization to Use of Military Force - - - - - Cong-Rec H5632-5633, 09-14-2001, DeFazio, AUMF in Response to Terrorist Attacks Congressional Record, H5632-33, 14 Sep 2011, Authorizing Use of Military Force in Response to Terrorist Attacks, Rep. DeFazio. He told Congress that he was ‘‘unauthorized by the Constitution, without the sanction of Congress, to go beyond the line of defense.’’ It further noted that it was up to Congress to authorize ‘‘measures of offense also.’’ I believe maintaining this solemn congressional prerogative to send our young men and women into battle is critical to protecting the delicate balance of power between the legislative and executive branches. This balance of power was carefully crafted by our founders in Philadelphia more than 2 centuries ago and has allowed the United States to remain one of the most stable and enduring democracies in the world. There was a time when such a power was threatened. Congress enacted the War Powers Resolution of 1973 in response to the military activities of successive Presidents while waging war in rescuing victims, my heart and my soul soar like an eagle, knowing that this country’s promise is yet ahead; and yet the dark days are still engulfing our memories. - - - - - Cong Rec H5859-H5862, Pres George W Bush, Address to Nation, 09-20-2001 Congressional Record, H5861-62, 20 Sep 2011, Authorizing Use of Military Force in Response to Terrorist Attacks, Address to The Nation by the President of the United States, President George W. Bush. - - - - - Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Congressional Record, S9949, 20Sep 2001, Authorizing Use of Military Force in Response to Terrorist Attacks, Sen. Byrd. I was reassured by the President’s remarks. But as I delved more deeply into the resolution passed by Congress, I began to have some qualms over how broad a grant of authority Congress gave him in our rush to act quickly. Because of the speed with which it was passed, there was little discussion establishing a foundation for the resolution. Because of the paucity of debate, it would be difficult to glean from the record the specific intent of Congress in approving S.J. Res. 23. There were after-the-fact statements made in the Senate, and there was some debate in the House, but there was not the normal level of discussion or the normal level of analysis of the language prior to the vote that we have come to expect in the Senate. And so I think it is important to take a second look at S.J. Res. 23, to examine its strengths and weaknesses, and to put on record the intent of Congress in passing the resolution. I am not sure we are doing that. Just as this is my speech, just as it is one Senator’s observations, those observations might have been worth a little more had we made them before we passed that resolution in such a great hurry. Two aspects of the resolution are key: First, the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack. It was not the intent of Congress to give the President unbridled authority—I hope it wasn’t—to wage war against terrorism writ large without the advice and consent of Congress. That intent was made clear when Senators modified the text of the resolution proposed by the White House to limit the grant of authority to the September 11 attack. Let me at this point read into the RECORD the original text of proposed joint resolution submitted to the Senate leadership by the White House on September 12 this year of our Lord, 2001. [...] And here is the resolving clause that was in the proposed legislation submitted by the White House to the Senate leadership— [...] The resolution as passed by the Senate on September 14 is as follows: [...] This joint resolution may be cited as the ‘‘Authorization for Use of Military Force’’. Sec. 2. Authorization for Use of United States Armed Forces. (a) That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons. - - - - - Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Congressional Record, S9951, 20 Sep 2011, Authorizing Use of Military Force in Response to Terrorist Attacks, Sen. Warner. The resolution we adopted, as the Senator from West Virginia said, is much narrower in terms of its authority. The draft we began with, that the White House submitted to us, had unprecedented broad authority, far too broad for most of us. It was unlimited by time and by other limits, as to what the President could do in response to these attacks. The final resolution we adopted provided that the authority granted to the President is to respond to the attack of September 11—not to some unspecified future attacks but to that particular attack of September 11, and also, as the Senator from West Virginia said, made specific reference and inclusion by reference to the provisions of the War Powers Act. Those and other changes in the language of the resolution were significant. Our good friend from West Virginia pointed out that there was much greater care and caution—to use his words—in the final resolution we adopted. I hope history proves that those of us who worked so hard on that final resolution indeed used enough care and caution to satisfy the requirements of the Constitution and just good common sense. But history will judge that one—and I hope will judge it well—because the differences between the original draft resolution submitted to us and the one we adopted are indeed significant changes, major changes. - - - - - Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Congressional Record, S9954, 20 Sep 2011, Thanking Senator Byrd, Sen. Wellstone. I say to my colleague that up until about 1 o’clock in the morning, I did not think I could support it. I thought it was too broad, too open ended. I think Senator LEVIN did say this, but while you were busy on that appropriations bill, Senator LEVIN was one of the key Senators—along with staff—who really did yeomen’s work to try to have that resolution focus on the September 11 attacks. It was entirely different wording. But I thank you, Senator BYRD, for what you have done today in this Senate Chamber. - - - - - Cong Rec H7189-H7247, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Congressional Record, H7189, 10-08-2002, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, The Speaker. [...] Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq; Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of American citizens; - - - - - Cong Rec, H7706-H7735, 10-09-2002, AUMFAgainst Iraq Resolution of 2002 Congressional Record, H7706, 10-09-2002, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002, Rep. Becerra. - - - - - Cong Rec S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack Congressional Record, S10642, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack, Sen. Byrd (quoting a letter from William Van Alstyne). DUKE UNIVERSITY, Senator ROBERT C. BYRD, DEAR SENATOR BYRD: I am writing in response to your letter of July 22 inquiring whether in my opinion, ‘‘the Bush Administration currently has authority, consistent with the U.S. Constitution and the War Powers Resolution, to introduce U.S. Armed Forces into imminent or actual hostilities in Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from Power.’’ You raise the question because, as you say, in your letter, you are ‘‘deeply concerned about comments by the Bush Administration and recent press reports that our nation is coming closer to war with Iraq.’’ I was away from my office at Duke University During the week when your inquiry arrived. Because you understandably asked for a very prompt response, I am foregoing a fuller, more detailed, statement to you just now, the day just following my reading of your letter, on August 6. I shall, however, be pleased to furnish that more elaborate statement on request. Briefly, these are my views: A. The President may not engage our armed forces in ‘‘war with Iraq,’’ except in such measure as Congress, by joint or concurrent resolutions duly passed in both Houses of Congress, declares shall be undertaken by the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. As Commander in Chief, i.e., in fulfilling that role, the President is solely responsible for the conduct of whatever measures of war Congress shall authorize. It is not for the President, however, to presume to ‘‘authorize himself’’ to embark on war. Whether the President deems it essential to the National interest to use the armed forces of the United States to make war against one of our neighbors, or to make war against nations yet more distant from our shores, it is all the same. The Constitution requires that he not presumed to do so merely on his own assessment and unilateral order. Rather, any armed invasions of or actual attack on another nation by the armed forces of the United States as an act of war requires decision by Congress before it proceeds, not after the President would presume to engage in war (and, having unilaterally commenced hostilities, then would merely confront Congress with a ‘‘take-it-or-leave it’’ fait accomplis). The framers of the Constitution understood the difference vividly— and made provision against vesting any warinitiating power in the Executive.1 [...] 1 It is today, even as it was when Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Madison from Paris, in September, 1789, referring then to the constitutional clauses putting the responsibility and power to embark on war in Congress rather than in the Executive. And thus Jefferson observed: ‘‘We have given, in example, one effectual check to the dog of war, by transferring the power of letting him loose from the Executive to the Legislative body, from those who are to spend to those who are to pay.’’ C. Warren, The Making of the Constitution 481 n. 1 (1928). (See also Chief Justice Johnson Marshall’s Opinion for the Supreme Court in Talbot v. Seeman, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 1,28 (1803) (‘‘The whole powers of war being, by the constitution of the United States, vested in congress, the acts of that body can alone be resorted to as our guides.’’) Cong Rec S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack Congressional Record, S10644, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack, Sen. Byrd (quoting a letter from Laurence H. Tribe). HON. ROBERT C. BYRD [...] My study of the United States Constitution and its history, as a scholar and teacher of American constitutional law over the past thirty years, has suggested to me no authority for the President, acting as the Commander in Chief, to wage a purely preemptive war against another nation without at least consulting with Congress first, and without obtaining from Congress a formal authorization, whether in the form of a declaration of war or, at the least, a joint resolution expressing the assent of both the House and the Senate—with the exception of so exigent an emergency as to admit of no time for such consultation and authorization without mortal and imminent peril to our nation. [...] As many have famously observed, our Constitution is not a suicide pact. But that exception for cases of self-defense cannot be treated so elastically that the exception threatens to swallow the rule. [...] That said, it remains my view, as I wrote in volume one of the 2000 edition of my treatise, ‘‘American Constitutional Law,’’ § 4–6, at page 665, ‘‘although the Constitution does not explicitly say that the President cannot initiate hostilities without first consulting with and gaining the authentic approval of Congress, that conclusion flows naturally, if not quite inescapably, from the array of congressional powers over military affairs and especially the provisions in Article I, § 8, clause 11, vesting in Congress the power to declare war. To permit the President unilaterally to commit the Nation to war would read out of the Constitution the clause granting to the Congress, and to it alone, the authority ‘to declare war.’ ’’ (Footnotes omitted.) Whether with the aid of the War Powers Resolution of 1973—a resolution that some have regarded as a quasi-constitutional articulation of the boundaries between the Presidency and the Congress—or without regard to that much mooted (and arguably question-begging) assertion of congressional power to draw those boundary lines for itself—one would be hard-pressed to defend the proposition that, simply because the President thinks it inconvenient to bring Congress into his deliberations and to await Congress’s assent, he may suddenly proceed, like the kings and emperors of old, unilaterally to unleash the dogs of war. [...] It seems quite clear that S.J. Res. 23 (Pub. L. No. 107–40), the joint resolution authorizing the use of U.S. military force against those responsible for the attacks of September 11, 2001, would not furnish the requisite congressional assent to any such strike against Iraq, or even to the introduction of U.S. armed forces into imminent or actual military hostilities in Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from power. Unless convincing evidence of Iraq’s involvement in the terrorist attacks of September 11 were to emerge, that joint resolution could not be said to offer even a fig leaf of cover for such a military campaign. To its credit, the Bush Administration does not appear to have suggested the contrary. Cong-Rec H5632-5633, 09-14-2001, DeFazio, AUMF in Response to Terrorist Attacks Cong Rec H5859-H5862, Pres George W Bush, Address to Nation, 09-20-2001 Cong Rec H7189-H7247, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7268-H7301, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec, H7706-H7735, 10-09-2002, AUMFAgainst Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7739-H7799, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Cong Rec S10063-S1007, 10-08-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack Cong Rec S10164-S10217, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10233-S10342, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack
I didn't need the history lesson. Post 53 asked you several questions, not one of which you answered in your history lesson. Here they are again: Since when does the title of the resolution have the force of law? How convenient of you to cite the title but not the preamable: Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States... Emphasis mine... What is that Constituional authority that permits the POTUS to act "offshore"? Why did the general provision of the resolution not so constrain the POTUS to military means only?
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Thanks for the reply.
Look Mildred!!! NIGGERS!!!! war posted on 2011-10-03 14:29:18 ET
You obviously did need the history lesson and an update of your short term memory loss. Your untenable position, which my history lesson just viscerated, is that the AUMF of 2001 authorized the action in Yemen of CIA and military in killing American citizen al-Aulaqi. No Authorization for the Use of Military Force authorizes the non-military CIA to do anything. The authorization to do stuff does not come from any military authorization. The AUMF of 2001 was deliberately narrowed from the White House proposed language so that it only pertained to the events in 2001. Here they are again: Since when does the title of the resolution have the force of law? Did you not read the resolution text? The heading of Section 2 is in bold faced caps in the original. And Section 2(b): (1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION.—Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. (2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS.—Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution. Section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution: The War Powers Resolution is about the use of the United States Armed Forces. Section 8(a) of the War Powers Resolution: SEC. 8. (a) Authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances shall not be inferred— (2) from any treaty heretofore or hereafter ratified unless such treaty is implemented by legislation specifically authorizing the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution. As the history lesson from the Congressional Record showed, Let me at this point read into the RECORD the original text of proposed joint resolution submitted to the Senate leadership by the White House on September 12 this year of our Lord, 2001. Cong Rec S9951, Sen. Warner: The final resolution we adopted provided that the authority granted to the President is to respond to the attack of September 11—not to some unspecified future attacks but to that particular attack of September 11, and also, as the Senator from West Virginia said, made specific reference and inclusion by reference to the provisions of the War Powers Act. S9954, Sen Wellstone: S10642, Byrd quoting letter of William Van Alstyne, Duke University, School of Law: DUKE UNIVERSITY, SCHOOL OF LAW, Durham, NC., August 7, 2002. Senator ROBERT C. BYRD, Chairman, U.S. Senate Committee on Appropriations, Washington, DC DEAR SENATOR BYRD: I am writing in response to your letter of July 22 inquiring whether in my opinion, ‘‘the Bush Administration currently has authority, consistent with the U.S. Constitution and the War Powers Resolution, to introduce U.S. Armed Forces into imminent or actual hostilities in Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from Power.’’ You raise the question because, as you say, in your letter, you are ‘‘deeply concerned about comments by the Bush Administration and recent press reports that our nation is coming closer to war with Iraq.’’ I was away from my office at Duke University During the week when your inquiry arrived. Because you understandably asked for a very prompt response, I am foregoing a fuller, more detailed, statement to you just now, the day just following my reading of your letter, on August 6. I shall, however, be pleased to furnish that more elaborate statement on request. Briefly, these are my views: A. The President may not engage our armed forces in ‘‘war with Iraq,’’ except in such measure as Congress, by joint or concurrent resolutions duly passed in both Houses of Congress, declares shall be undertaken by the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. As Commander in Chief, i.e., in fulfilling that role, the President is solely responsible for the conduct of whatever measures of war Congress shall authorize. It is not for the President, however, to presume to ‘‘authorize himself’’ to embark on war. Whether the President deems it essential to the National interest to use the armed forces of the United States to make war against one of our neighbors, or to make war against nations yet more distant from our shores, it is all the same. The Constitution requires that he not presumed to do so merely on his own assessment and unilateral order. Rather, any armed invasions of or actual attack on another nation by the armed forces of the United States as an act of war requires decision by Congress before it proceeds, not after the President would presume to engage in war (and, having unilaterally commenced hostilities, then would merely confront Congress with a ‘‘take-it-or-leave it’’ fait accomplis). The framers of the Constitution understood the difference vividly— and made provision against vesting any warinitiating power in the Executive. [1] [...] [1] It is today, even as it was when Thomas Jefferson wrote to James Madison from Paris, in September, 1789, referring then to the constitutional clauses putting the responsibility and power to embark on war in Congress rather than in the Executive. And thus Jefferson observed: ‘‘We have given, in example, one effectual check to the dog of war, by transferring the power of letting him loose from the Executive to the Legislative body, from those who are to spend to those who are to pay.’’ C. Warren, The Making of the Constitution 481 n. 1 (1928). (See also Chief Justice Johnson Marshall’s Opinion for the Supreme Court in Talbot v. Seeman, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 1,28 (1803) (‘‘The whole powers of war being, by the constitution of the United States, vested in congress, the acts of that body can alone be resorted to as our guides.’’) S10644, Byrd quoting ltr of Laurence H. Tribe, Harvard University, Law School: HARVARD UNIVERSITY, LAW SCHOOL, Cambridge, MA, July 31, 2002 HON. ROBERT C. BYRD [...] It seems quite clear that S.J. Res. 23 (Pub. L. No. 107–40), the joint resolution authorizing the use of U.S. military force against those responsible for the attacks of September 11, 2001, would not furnish the requisite congressional assent to any such strike against Iraq, or even to the introduction of U.S. armed forces into imminent or actual military hostilities in Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from power. Unless convincing evidence of Iraq’s involvement in the terrorist attacks of September 11 were to emerge, that joint resolution could not be said to offer even a fig leaf of cover for such a military campaign. To its credit, the Bush Administration does not appear to have suggested the contrary. Harumph is not an effective rebuttal. Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States; and Whereas, the President has authority under the Constitution to take action to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States... As for your nonsense expansion of the AUMF of 2001 to authorize unrelated attacks in Yemen in 2011, it is clear that it would not even authorize attacks on Saddam Hussein in 2002. It would not even offer a fig leaf of cover for military action. If you are to find authority for the action in Yemen, it cannot be found in the AUMF of 2001. "Whereas..." whatever is not a grant of authority to do anything. At S99489, Senator Byrd identified the resolving part. That ain't it. I provided the entire resolution in a scribd reader. As scrolling proved too great an impediment, I provided the entire resolution as an image. I will do it again. For the action in Yemen, not the AUMF of 2001. As that is your claim, and it has failed badly, your attempt to divert from your claim is your to answer with your next attempt to find a viable justification for the 2011 action in Yemen. It was a purposely limited authorization to use military force. The president is not constrained from using non-military assets. An AUMF is irrelevant to the authorization to use, or refrain from using, those assets. Non-military forces are not the subject of an AUMF. The CIA is not a military force. To put you back on topic, your untenable position is that the AUMF of 2001 authorized the action in Yemen of CIA and military in killing American citizen al-Aulaqi. That's dead. The Congressional Record verifies it is an impossible stretch. The WPA bars such a stretch. The legal experts say it is wrong. And the GWB administration, in 2002, alleged a direct link between Saddam and al Qaeda, and still sought another AUMF to go into Iraq, demonstrating that such an interpretation was wrong. This is the nonsense your are defending: (a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's pretty clear that such a "determination" about this asshole was so made. That was just skewered by a history lesson which your are attempting to ignore.
That was just skewered by a history lesson which your [sic] are attempting to ignore. I can cite "speeches" from the floor of the Senate made in the late 19th century in which the OPINION of a particular Senator, voting in the affirmative, stated that the 14th amendment did not convey birthright citizenship. You and I both **know** that it does in fact so convey. So, as I stated, I don't need the history lesson. What I do need is for you to offer a concise argument that your very narrow interpretation of the AUMF against Al Qaeda is the correct one. Thanks.
Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
The "perpetrators" under your narrow interpretation, perished in the planes. Oh...I forgot...you don't believe that there were planes...and that my own eyes and ears deceived me..."figments of my imagination" is what I believe you called them...
Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
Can you cite any law which forbids the CIA from acting in a military capacity?
Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
So, as I stated, I don't need the history lesson. What I do need is for you to offer a concise argument that your very narrow interpretation of the AUMF against Al Qaeda is the correct one. Apparently you need another history and law lesson. Congresscritters pass laws. They do not ratify amendments to the Constitution. Acting in their sovereign capacity, the people, not government officials, ratify amendments and breathe life into them. They act based on the black letter text of proposed amendments. The preferred interpretation is in accord with the meaning of the black letter text as understood by the people, upon which they based their ratification. The opinion of a particular Senator, or the entire Congress is not controlling. If the Congress does not like the interpretation by SCOTUS, their only recourse is to propose to the people to change the amendment, because Congress cannot change it or override the SCOTUS interpretation. Congress passes Federal laws, not amendments to the Constitution. But go ahead and humor me and cite the irrelevant speech[es] you say you can cite, but have neither cited nor provided. On the AUMF, I actually posted relevant pages from the Congressional Record on scribd, and linked, cited, and quoted here. Cong-Rec H5632-5633, 09-14-2001, DeFazio, AUMF in Response to Terrorist Attacks Cong Rec H5859-H5862, Pres George W Bush, Address to Nation, 09-20-2001 Cong Rec H7189-H7247, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7268-H7301, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec, H7706-H7735, 10-09-2002, AUMFAgainst Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7739-H7799, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Cong Rec S10063-S1007, 10-08-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack Cong Rec S10164-S10217, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10233-S10342, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack
I need only show that your interpretation is legally impossible. Your interpretation, inferring in what Congress deliberately removed from the White House draft, is directly contrary to the War Powers Act, Section 8(a). AUMF of 2001, Section 2(b): (1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION.—Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution. (2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS.—Nothing in this resolution supercedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution. War Powers Resolution, Section 8(a): SEC. 8. (a) Authority to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances shall not be inferred— (2) from any treaty heretofore or hereafter ratified unless such treaty is implemented by legislation specifically authorizing the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and stating that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution.
The "perpetrators" under your narrow interpretation, perished in the planes. This text does not appear in my #72 to which you are nominally responding. They are the words of Senator Robert Byrd, and appear in my #69. Just for context, I provide Sen. Byrd's full presentation below. As you seem to need a lesson on the meaning of the word perpetrator, I will provide the definition from Black's Law Dictionary, 6th Ed. Perhaps not all the agents of the acts perished in planes. If they did, I wonder who the hell we have been chasing after for the past ten years. Congressional Record, S9948-S9954 10-01-2001 Use of Force Authority by the President - - - Congressional Record, S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack
AP I, 43.1, AP I, 37. There's that whole uniform thing going on. Without one, your CIA operative is prohibited from taking part in military hostilities. Military combat is not clothing optional. Falsely wearing a military uniform to get combatant POW eligibility status is perfidy. See Vincent-Joël Proulx, If the Hat Fits Wear It, If the Turban Fits, Run for your Life: Reflections on the Indefinite Detention and Targeted Killing of Suspected Terrorists, Hastings Law Journal, Volume 56, 2004-2005, page 888, discussing the targeted killing, by drone strike, of Mullah Mohammed Omar. At 888:
I believe this claim is a figment of your imagination, but if you believe I said I believed there were no planes on 9/11, you can produce the link and post it. This claim is a figment of your imagination. I guess it will pass as your best attempt to create a diversion from your other debunked claims that you find yourself unable to defend with any substance.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/1198379522001/the-plain-truth-about-executive-assassination/
Gotta love that guy. He asks "Who will the President kill next?". You guys agree with the Judge?
War. You weren't there. That has already been proven on the 911 thread.
You care to chime in on this issue Mike? I am curious as to what your take on it is.
He does that a lot you know. He is too lazy to do any research, and he hates it when he is wrong so he just pretends this is not so and tries to move on.
I don't wish to offer an opinion on this story here at this time. Some interesting points have been raised, so I am still in the middle of taking a new look at the story and the issues around it in terms of international law.
I'm talking about our law. You know the constitution. You already answered the question. You support Obama assassinating people. If you didn't you would condemn it. You know, what you would do if it was Bush or Herman Cain.
Did you hear that war. Slapped down by your fellow liberal. You two are both liberals but I have detected some animosity towards each other here and in the past. You're different types of libearls. War is more pro government. Mike is more pro freedom. That is what I see.
No, I made an error as to whom nolu chan was talking to in the post. I had thought he was refering to someone else. Basically, you asked and I answered I want to do more checking into this issue. That is the point of my answer to you. I support war's viewpoint, but I am careful as ths is an important point. So I am doing some research on this for my own benefit.
..you proved squat...you posted a couple of
YouTube videos of a handful of people when there were 10's of thousands in the
WTC alone. You may as well have posted a video of someone claiming that they saw
Elvis do it. And stop censoring people, Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
First watch your mouth or I will take out the trash. Next. I posted videos of people as the came out of WTC saying the basement was blown up. Garcia or Lopez or whoever the Janitor was said the same thing. You said you were there but you weren't. As proved on the thread you are chickenshit of. As for censoring people. I am now going to censor your post.
So you support the star chamber. Murder of American citizens. Got ya witch.
Apparently, you need to lay off of the 'shrooms. I challenge you to post the statement in which I claimed that Congress RATIFIES amendments. Apparently, you also need a lesson in HOW the USCON is amended. There are two ways, one is a Constitutional convention of the States; the other is that the CONGRESS may PROPOSE amendments to the USCON and submit them to the States for ratificaton by their legislatures. This can me found in the Fifth Article opf the USCON which states, in part: The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution... The 14th amendment passed out of the Congress in June of 1866...
Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
You've posted the floor speech of one of 535 members of the US Congress. Do you have 534 more stating that they share Byrd's opinion as to what was passed on 9/18/01. Senator McCain: “The focus on Al Qaeda and its affiliates was intentional. Al Qaeda is, and has been for the last 10 years, the focus of the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) that Congress passed overwhelmingly after the attack on our country on September 11, 2001. We are at war with Al Qaeda and its affiliates. The President has said so plainly. “In fact, it was just days ago that the Obama Administration used the fact that we are at war with Al Qaeda to kill an American citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, in Yemen. That was a decision I fully support. Awlaki had become a leading operational planner for what Administration officials now regard as the branch of Al Qaeda that poses the most significant threat to the United States. Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
Go fuck yourself, Stone. It matters not to me if anyone else sees it. You saw it...that's all that counts. Have a nice day...I'll be at True Blue/// /asshole
Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs
A religious bigot like you IS the trash.
Even were I to agree with you, I'd offer you no support because you try to insult when I don't. I would say someone of your maturity level has zero influence on me.
When Stone grows up he wants to be like all those despots he admires.
When the people are afraid, that's when the greatest long term money is made.~~~~Clark Howard
He has one of those Napoleon complexes apparently.
Gee, its ground hog day.....again.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
Thanks. And we killed Izzy Yamamoto... - - - [nc #34] Please show where AUMF pertains to anything other than military force in combat? How do you translate it to non-military force engaged in assassination? Do you really find the status of American/Yemini citizen Al-Aulaqi comparable to that of Admiral (Japanese Naval General) Yamamoto? - - - [war #37] Please cite your authority for claiming that a) the resolution requires that all military actions be "combat" when the resolution clearly states "all necessary and appropriate force" and that command and control structures and personnel would be immune from any type of military strike or that b) a drone attack is not "military force"? And please don't cite wikipedia as being some sort of authority. Thanks. Permit me to give a fuller exploration of your Izzy Yamamoto remark with a quote from competent legal authority. See Yoram Dinstein, The Conduct of Hostilities under the Law of International Armed Conflict, Second Edition, Cambridge University Press, 2010, pp. 103-104. As for your CIA led drone strike, see Vincent-Joël Proulx, If the Hat Fits Wear It, If the Turban Fits, Run for your Life: Reflections on the Indefinite Detention and Targeted Killing of Suspected Terrorists, Hastings Law Journal, Volume 56, 2004-2005, page 888, discussing the targeted killing, by drone strike, of Mullah Mohammed Omar. In this case it is much more than likely that CIA operatives coordinated the targeted killings. Such has been stated to be the fact.
“The focus on Al Qaeda and its affiliates was intentional. Al Qaeda is, and has been for the last 10 years, the focus of the Authorization for the Use of Military Force (AUMF) that Congress passed overwhelmingly after the attack on our country on September 11, 2001. We are at war with Al Qaeda and its affiliates. The President has said so plainly. “In fact, it was just days ago that the Obama Administration used the fact that we are at war with Al Qaeda to kill an American citizen, Anwar al-Awlaki, in Yemen. That was a decision I fully support. Awlaki had become a leading operational planner for what Administration officials now regard as the branch of Al Qaeda that poses the most significant threat to the United States. --Senator McCain Floor Speech, October 6, 2011 As for the McCain claim that "[w]e are at war with Al Qaeda and its affiliates," we are not at war. We are engaged in an armed conflict. McCain's misstatement does not change international law. He's the one who said Iran was training al Qaeda operatives and sang Bomb, bomb, Iran. See Gary D. Solis, U.S. Military Academy, The Law of Armed Conflict, Cambridge University Press, 2010, paragraph 1.4.1, "The Law of War" or "The Law of Armed Conflict"? at pp. 20-21. See Nils Melzer, Targeted Killing in International Law, Oxford monographs in International Law, Oxford University Press, 2008, reprinted 2010, pp. 246-247. a) From War to Armed Conflict Before the establishment of the United Nations at the end of the Second World War, 'war' was generally understood as a formally declared, and mutually recognized, state of hostility between sovereign States, which found its expression in the application of armed force. Peace and war were not so much factual situations as they were formalized legal conditions to which either the entire law of peace (jus pacis) or, alternatively, the full law of war (jus in bello) applied. [...] [T]he contemporary concept of 'international armed conflict' no longer requires a declaration of war, nor does its existence depend on the willingness of the parties to recognize a state of war. Certainly, in cases where neither hostilities nor any other infringement of foreign sovereignty have taken place, a formal declaration of war still ipso facto gives rise to the applicability of the Geneva Conventions. In all other cases, the existence of an international armed conflict is simply determined by the actual occurrence of unilateral or mutual hostilities, which must express the belligerent intent of one or both parties to the conflict. In practical terms, the existence of an armed conflict obliges the involved parties to respect IHL 'in all circumstances' —regardless of reciprocity— as soon as, and the latest when, hostilities are initiated as a matter of fact. Even the Defense Authorization Bill that McCain was addressing uses the term armed conflict and not war. The material I quoted, and linked to in its entirety, was contemporaneous with the passage of the resolutions. Your unsourced, unlinked quote is from last week, 10 years after the debate on the resolutions. Most congressmen are whores and what distinguishes them is what streetcorner they work. McCain's streetcorner is the Senate Armed Forces Committee. As for the McCain floor speech, you forgot to mention that the floor debate was on the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, not the Authorization for the Use of Military Force of 2001, nor did you provide the context of McCain's remarks. He was pimping the 1,145-page Defense Authorization Act. It is stuck in the Senate committee since May and Senator McCain is upset that he cannot get it brought to the floor with some of the crap that is in it. It would appear from his speech that he identifies the problem as Section 1034 at pages 567-568. Apparently, it is not going to reach the floor with that in it (among other things). Notably, this provision tarting up the bill has nothing whatever to do with funding authorization. H.R. 1540, National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012, Subtitle D—Counterterrorism, Section 1034, Affirmation of Armed Conflict with Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Associated Forces, pp. 567-568 of 1145, last action as of 10/11/2011 - Received in the Senate and Read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services. Congress affirms that— (2) the President has the authority to use all necessary and appropriate force during the current armed conflict with al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and associatec1 forces pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note); (3) the current armed conflict includes nations, organization, and persons who— (B) have engaged in hostilities or have directly supported hostilities in aid of a nation, organization, or person described in subparagraph (A); and (4) the President's authority pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40; 50 U.S.C. 1541 note) includes the authority to detain belligerents, including persons described in paragraph (3), until the termination of hostilities. The McCain floor speech in its entirety from the Congressional Record: Cong Rec, S6323-S6324, 06 Oct 2011, McCain, National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2012 Opposition to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012: Rep. Van Hollen directly on point shows the crap that McCain wants to insert into the AUMF that was deliberately removed from the GW Bush administration draft of the bill before passage. If the AUMF already did this crap, they would not still be trying to sneak it in the back door. Other congressmen point out additional problems with this $690 BILLION Christmas tree festooned with ornaments, plus a reversal of the repeal of DADT. Whatever one thinks of the repeal of the DADT policy, this provision does not belong in the financial authorization bill, attempting to hold military funding hostage to crap not related to funding. The policy issue is fair game for congress, but not in this bill. Cong. Rec. ER-988, May 27, 2011, Rep. Van Hollen. Section 1034 of this bill gives this President and all future Presidents vastly expanded authority to take America to war without further congressional action. It gives the Executive a virtual blank check by authorizing the President to deploy an unlimited number of troops into a war of unlimited duration based on illdefined standards. The language in 1034 represents a total abdication of congressional responsibility under the Constitution. The President already has broad authority to use military force against al Qaeda and Taliban forces pursuant to the Authorization of the Use of Military Force (AUMF) that was adopted in 2001. That provision states: That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons. This bill replaces the existing AUMF with a new provision that provides the President with vast new war-making authority. Under the umbrella of the war against terrorism, it expands the existing broad authority in at least three ways: DE-LINKS USE OF FORCE FROM 9/11 ATTACKS The original language gave the President the authority to use military force against any entities he determined to be connected to the attacks of September 11, 2001 or any nation, organization or persons he determined harbored such entities. The new language expands the authority to target entities regardless of their connection to the September 11 attacks. PERMITS ATTACKS ON UNDEFINED ‘‘ASSOCIATED FORCES’’ The original language authorized all necessary force against the entities responsible for the 9/11 attacks, but did not provide the authority to wage war against undetermined ‘‘associated forces.’’ The term ‘‘associated forces’’ is totally undefined and would allow any President to apply that term with great elasticity to go to war without congressional approval in any number of situations. ALLOWS USE OF FORCE AGAINST ENTITIES THAT ‘‘SUPPORT’’ THE TALIBAN, AL QAEDA OR ‘‘ASSOCIATED FORCES’’ The original language allowed the use of force against entities that ‘‘harbored’’ the terrorist groups that perpetuated the attacks of 9/11. The new language allows the President to wage war, without additional congressional consent, against any entities that substantially support the Taliban, al Qaeda or ‘‘associated forces.’’ This is a much weaker standard than the existing requirement. Had the Congress included this language in the 2001 AUMF, President Bush could have sent American troops into Iraq without seeking a separate resolution to use force. This language authorizes the Executive to launch military action against an entity that had nothing to do with the attacks of September 11, 2001 so long as the President determines that a country or organization is substantially supporting the Taliban, al Qaeda or ‘‘associated forces.’’ The Bush administration claimed that the regime of Saddam Hussein was allowing Iraqi territory to be used to train al Qaeda elements. While I believe the Congress made a mistake in voting to authorize President Bush to go to war in Iraq, at least Congress debated and voted on the decision. With this new provision in place, no such vote would have been required. Under the Constitution, the President of the United States already has relatively broad powers to use military force as Commander in Chief. In addition, the existing Authorization of the Use of Military Force provides the President with additional authority to take military action in a wide array of situations without seeking additional congressional approval or a declaration of war. It is a reckless surrender of congressional responsibility for the Congress to write this new open-ended blank check for the use of military force. Not even the Executive has been brazen enough to request this new broad grant of authority. The language in Section 1034 is sloppy, illconsidered and poorly conceived. No hearings were held to consider its full ramifications. This Congress should be ashamed of itself for its careless and cavalier approach to a question of such grave national significance. I urge the Senate and the President to reject this provision and hope to have an opportunity to vote for a revised Defense Authorization Act that doesn’t undermine the constitutional responsibilities of the Congress. Cong. Rec. ER-988, May 27, 2011, Rep. Inslee. As you know, USFHP has been an extremely popular program within the Military Health System since its introduction in 1981, serving more than 115,000 active duty service members, veterans, and their families 16 states, including more than 11,000 in Washington state. USFHP consistently earns a 90 percent satisfaction rating among its enrollees— by far the highest among military beneficiary programs. In addition to its success and popularity, this program plays an integral component in the Department of Defense (DoD) meeting its commitment to provide health care to those who have served our country in uniform. The provision included in this year’s Defense Authorization bill would terminate health care services under the plan when beneficiaries reach the age of 65 and become eligible to transfer to Medicare. Over one third of all USFHP beneficiaries are currently over 65 and are taking advantage of the USFHP managed care structure. Removing them from the program could undermine the highly effective disease management and prevention aspects of the USFHP, not to mention potentially ending longstanding patient-doctor relationships due to the change in coverage. USFHP is a fully capitated program, providing quality and efficient care to beneficiaries. Even recently, Congress highlighted the effectiveness of USFHP in the 111th DoD authorization bill, while directing DoD to examine opportunities to improve the broader TRICARE Program. Additionally last year the Director of TRICARE Management engaged USFHP to assist in educating the rest of the DoD system about their highly successful prevention and disease management programs. Cong Rec, ER-987, May 24, 2011, Rep. Stark. It does not make sense to waste billions of tax dollars on an already bloated defense department, particularly in our current economic state. This bill is loaded with unnecessary and redundant funding. For example, it calls for the reckless continuation of the V–22 Osprey program, which has killed over 30 Americans in training alone, and whose termination could save us $10–12 billion over the next 10 years. Defense spending currently constitutes almost 60 percent of our discretionary spending. As we are forced to consider cutting important programs that working families depend on, we cannot continue to spend money we do not have—especially on an overly saturated Department of Defense. Americans have voiced their priorities: They want jobs, affordable health care and better education. This Congress must listen. Cong. Rec. ER-987, May 27, 2011, Rep. Blumenauer The bill continues the misguided affront on civil liberties by further stalling the implementation of ‘‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,’’ and requires that ‘‘marriage’’ for any regulation or benefit program at DoD means only a legal union between one man and one woman. This is a step backwards and unacceptable. It reverses the House victory from earlier this year that finally eliminated the unnecessary alternate engine for the F–35 Joint Strike Fighter. Similarly, the bill continues to fund the Marine Corps’ Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle (EFV) which has also been cited as uneconomical and unwanted by the Secretary of Defense. Embarrassingly, this authorization contains two key provisions that continue to tie the President’s hands by restricting his ability to transfer detainees to the United States for trial in Federal court and to release detainees to countries willing to take them. It is absurd to think that the United States, which currently has thousands of dangerous criminals locked safely behind bars, is incapable of doing the same for terrorists. These provisions continue the Guantanamo quagmire which is ill-advised and a sign of failure at home and to those observing abroad. Cong Rec, ER-957, May 24, 2011, Rep. Quigley. More specifically, I rise in fierce opposition to provisions of this bill which seek to deter and derail the repeal of Don’t-Ask-Don’t-Tell. A repeal, which has been implemented only after the Department of Defense completed a comprehensive review of the issues associated with the repeal. A repeal, which has been implemented only after DOD solicited the views of nearly 400,000 active duty and reserve component Servicemembers. A repeal, which has been implemented only after DOD conducted one of the largest surveys in the history of the U.S. military. Still, we stand here today to consider a measure that demonstrates that this body doesn’t believe that Secretary Gates and Admiral Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are right to support the repeal. I believe in our military’s ability to evaluate and make recommendations, and I fully support their plan to implement repeal. Cong Rec, E-1000, May 31, 2011, Rep. Israel. I am very disappointed that H.R. 1540, the Fiscal Year 2012 National Defense Authorization Act, included section 533, which would add a further step on the path to final repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. It requires that each of the Armed Forces service chiefs approve repeal. While I believe that the input of the military is critical to a smooth transition to open military service, the current process that is already underway to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell includes significant input from the uniformed military personnel and Defense Department leadership. In fact, under current law, the policy only ends 60 days after the President, Secretary of Defense, and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff approve a Defense Department report confirming that the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell will not harm military readiness. Section 533 is nothing more than an attempt to delay final repeal.
Apparently, you need to lay off of the 'shrooms. [...] Stay Hungry...Stay Foolish --Steve Jobs I guess this must be your latest tactic of distraction, linking back to the wrong post. Once again, what you quote is from #76 is not from #77 to which you respond. If this is not intentional, then I am not the one who needs to lay off the 'shrooms. You did not claim Congress passes Amendments. I pointed out that that congress does not, demonstrating the insignificance of your claim that you could (you did not) "cite 'speeches' from the floor of the Senate made in the late 19th century in which the OPINION of a particular Senator, voting in the affirmative, stated that the 14th amendment did not convey birthright citizenship." It is irrelevant to the issue of AUMF for which I produced actual debate of two resolutions. Also, whatever a Senator may blather about congressional intent regarding a constitutional amendment does not carry much weight as the federal congress is not the body that votes whether to ratify an amendment. Others vote on the black letter text presented to them.
I provided unedited debate sessions from the time they started speaking about the AUMF until they moved on to something else. I did so for both houses. That includes about 300 pages and everybody who spoke at the time. I provided a link to the material I cited and quoted. I'll do it again, only better. You are invited to read "the floor speech of one of the 535 members of the US Congress." This "response" to #78 is sad, attempting to ignore #76. If I do not repeat all of it in each post you claim it was never said at all. Enjoy the reread done with extra effort for the completeness you seek. As you are aware, there was very scant floor debate on the 9/18/2001 Resolution. There was a tremendous amount of floor debate about the Iraq AUMF of 2002. You remember, the one about the guy with WMD who was directly linked to al Qaeda, and whose imminent production of nuclear weapons threated to engulf NYC in a mushroom cloud. That guy. And they needed to pass another AUMF to use the troops there. So, as I stated, I don't need the history lesson. What I do need is for you to offer a concise argument that your very narrow interpretation of the AUMF against Al Qaeda is the correct one. Apparently you need another history and law lesson. Congresscritters pass laws. They do not ratify amendments to the Constitution. Acting in their sovereign capacity, the people, not government officials, ratify amendments and breathe life into them. They act based on the black letter text of proposed amendments. The preferred interpretation is in accord with the meaning of the black letter text as understood by the people, upon which they based their ratification. The opinion of a particular Senator, or the entire Congress is not controlling. If the Congress does not like the interpretation by SCOTUS, their only recourse is to propose to the people to change the amendment, because Congress cannot change it or override the SCOTUS interpretation. Congress passes Federal laws, not amendments to the Constitution. But go ahead and humor me and cite the irrelevant speech[es] you say you can cite, but have neither cited nor provided. On the AUMF, I actually posted relevant pages from the Congressional Record on scribd, and linked, cited, and quoted here. Cong-Rec H5632-5633, 09-14-2001, DeFazio, AUMF in Response to Terrorist Attacks Cong Rec H5859-H5862, Pres George W Bush, Address to Nation, 09-20-2001 Cong Rec H7189-H7247, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7268-H7301, 10-08-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec, H7706-H7735, 10-09-2002, AUMFAgainst Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec H7739-H7799, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S9948-S9954, 10-01-2001, Use of Force Authority by the President Cong Rec S10063-S1007, 10-08-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack Cong Rec S10164-S10217, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10233-S10342, 10-10-2002, AUMF Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Cong Rec S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack This is the fuller extent of stuff that I quoted from and linked to. - - - Congressional Record, H5859-H5862, President George W Bush Address to Nation, 09-20-2001 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Congressional Record, S9948-S9954 10-01-2001 Use of Force Authority by the President - - - Congressional Record, S10063-S10077, 10-08-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack - - - - - - - - - Congressional Record, S10642-S10645, 10-17-2002, Presidential Ability to Launch an Attack
I believe this claim is a figment of your imagination, but if you believe I said I believed there were no planes on 9/11, you can produce the link and post it. This claim is a figment of your imagination. I guess it will pass as your best attempt to create a diversion from your other debunked claims that you find yourself unable to defend with any substance. *** C R I C K E T S *** Where is the link to the figment of your imagination?
Thanks for that. And I should regard you as an authority to negate what McCain knows or does not know why again? Oh right...you're that guy on the internet... I've read through the floor speeches of both chambers long prior to this discussion. There are several speakers, in both the House and the Senate, who stated that the war would last years and span several nations for the purpose of eradicating the organization that perpetrated 9/11 not just the perps themselves but Al Qaeda's ability to strike again. There were House members and Senate members who stated this. But, since you kindly provided the Congressional record of those floor debates, I am sure that you are well aware of this and that you omission was to save space. Then again, if you are not so familiar, then I'd suggest that you familiarize yourself with the floor statements made in the House from the moment Rep Lantos was recognized, made his statement and then yielded time. IN speech after speech, the members of Congress, including IIRC, Ron Paul, did not question the authority of the POTUS to wage a retaliatory action under the War Powers Act alone - oddly invoked if we aren't at war but in an armed conflict...and thank you for your redundant euphemism. It reminds me how dealing with lawyers has made me mistrustful of language.
Look, Sebastian, a COCK!!! Let's suck it!!! Luberator posted on 2011-10-11 12:55:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Oh let's!!! Sebastian posted on 2011-10-11 13:01:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
Since we are discussing the resolution that was passed in 2001, providing a copy of the Congressional Record from 2002 when the debate was regarding Iraq and going to war, er, entering into an armed conflict against them, that "information" is extrinsic and thus spurious. We're discussing the authorization to destroy Al Qaeda and their enablers. Maybe you didn't check the date?
Look, Sebastian, a COCK!!! Let's suck it!!! Luberator posted on 2011-10-11 12:55:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Oh let's!!! Sebastian posted on 2011-10-11 13:01:33 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI would respond to your specific point but you did not make one.
#68. To: war (#66)
As opposed to representing the same sides [sic] of the sexual identity coin that YOU share with Yukon.
#69. To: war, A K A Stone, Liberator (#53)
What is that Constituional authority that permits the POTUS to act "offshore"? Why did the general provision of the resolution not so constrain the POTUS to military means only?
Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;
Just this Tuesday, CIA director George Tenet told Congress that Saddam Hussein, if provoked by fears that an attack by the United States was imminent, might help Islamic extremists launch an attack on the United States with weapons of mass destruction.
A. The President may not engage our armed forces in ‘‘war with Iraq,’’ except in such measure as Congress, by joint or concurrent resolutions duly passed in both Houses of Congress, declares shall be undertaken by the President as Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. As Commander in Chief, i.e., in fulfilling that role, the President is solely responsible for the conduct of whatever measures of war Congress shall authorize. It is not for the President, however, to presume to ‘‘authorize himself’’ to embark on war.
It seems quite clear that S.J. Res. 23 (Pub. L. No. 107–40), the joint resolution authorizing the use of U.S. military force against those responsible for the attacks of September 11, 2001, would not furnish the requisite congressional assent to any such strike against Iraq, or even to the introduction of U.S. armed forces into imminent or actual military hostilities in Iraq for the purpose of removing Saddam Hussein from power. Unless convincing evidence of Iraq’s involvement in the terrorist attacks of September 11 were to emerge, that joint resolution could not be said to offer even a fig leaf of cover for such a military campaign. To its credit, the Bush Administration does not appear to have suggested the contrary.
In 1801, President Thomas Jefferson sent a small squadron of frigates to the Mediterranean to protect against possible attacks by the Barbary pirates.
Fellow citizens, we will meet violence with patient justice assured of the rightness of our cause, and confident of the victories to come. In all that lies before us, may God grant us wisdom, and may He watch over the United States of America.
I supported the resolution granting the President the authority to use military force against the perpetrators of this terrible attack, and I applauded his address to Congress and to the Nation. I note that the President wisely drew lines of discrimination, specifying that the punishment must be directed against those who are guilty of this crime, so that we cannot be accused of broadening our response to those who were not involved in the September 11 attack. Our resolve and our ferocity of response must carefully discriminate against the guilty, and surely if we do so, all men of reason, all nations of conscience, will support and applaud us.
That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations or persons he determines planned, authorized, harbored, committed, or aided in the planning or commission of the attacks against the United States that occurred on September 11, 2001, and to deter and pre-empt any future acts of terrorism or aggression against the United States.
Section 1. Short Title.
First, on the second action we took, giving the President authority to respond to the attacks of September 11, the Senator did us a great service by laying out the version of that resolution with which we started and the version with which we ended. I made the same effort that day we voted on it, but I do not believe I actually put the drafts in the RECORD. I made reference to them, but I think that perhaps this is the first time the actual draft we began with is in the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. I think that is a very important service.
Mr. WELLSTONE. Mr. President, before Senator BYRD leaves the Chamber, I also want to thank him for his service to the Senate and the country. I am annoyed with myself for not having thought that we should have as a part of the RECORD the difference between the language that came from the White House and the resolution that we passed. It is so important that that be part of the RECORD.
The text of House Joint Resolution is as follows:
Just this Tuesday, CIA director George Tenet told Congress that Saddam Hussein, if provoked by fears that an attack by the United States was imminent, might help Islamic extremists launch an attack on the United States with weapons of mass destruction.
There being no objection, the material was ordered to be printed in the RECORD, as follows:
SCHOOL OF LAW,
Durham, NC., August 7, 2002.
Chairman, U.S. Senate
Committee on Appropriations,
Washington, DC HARVARD UNIVERSITY,
LAW SCHOOL,
Cambridge, MA, July 31, 2002.
U.S. Senate, Washington, DC.
#70. To: nolu chan (#69)
(Edited)
#71. To: nolu chan (#24)
I believe el-Shifa would not be an opinion of the court in case law, at least not in the sense of deciding anything about the issue other than that the court could not decide it or render any opinion on it, at least not in the sense you appear to convey.
#72. To: war (#70)
I didn't need the history lesson.
Post 53 asked you several questions, not one of which you answered in your history lesson.
(b) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS.—
(b) Within sixty calendar days after a report is submitted or is required to be submitted pursuant to section 4(a) (1), whichever is earlier, the President shall terminate any use of United States Armed Forces with respect to which such report was submitted (or required to be submitted), unless the Congress (1) has declared war or has enacted a specific authorization for such use of United States Armed Forces, (2) has extended by law such sixty-day period, or (3) is physically unable to meet as a result of an armed attack upon the United States. Such sixty-day period shall be extended for not more than an additional thirty days if the President determines and certifies to the Congress in writing that unavoidable military necessity respecting the safety of United States Armed Forces requires the continued use of such armed forces in the course of bringing about a prompt removal of such forces.
INTERPRETATION OF JOINT RESOLUTION
(1) from any provision of law (whether or not in effect before the date of the enactment of this joint resolution), including any provision contained in any appropriation Act, unless such provision specifically authorizes the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and states that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution; or
Two aspects of the resolution are key: First, the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack. It was not the intent of Congress to give the President unbridled authority—I hope it wasn’t—to wage war against terrorism writ large without the advice and consent of Congress. That intent was made clear when Senators modified the text of the resolution proposed by the White House to limit the grant of authority to the September 11 attack.
The resolution we adopted, as the Senator from West Virginia said, is much narrower in terms of its authority. The draft we began with, that the White House submitted to us, had unprecedented broad authority, far too broad for most of us. It was unlimited by time and by other limits, as to what the President could do in response to these attacks.
I say to my colleague that up until about 1 o’clock in the morning, I did not think I could support it. I thought it was too broad, too open ended. I think Senator LEVIN did say this, but while you were busy on that appropriations bill, Senator LEVIN was one of the key Senators—along with staff—who really did yeomen’s work to try to have that resolution focus on the September 11 attacks. It was entirely different wording.
Just this Tuesday, CIA director George Tenet told Congress that Saddam Hussein, if provoked by fears that an attack by the United States was imminent, might help Islamic extremists launch an attack on the United States with weapons of mass destruction.
There being no objection, the material was ordered to be printed in the RECORD, as follows:
U.S. Senate, Washington, DC. How convenient of you to cite the title but not the preamable:
What is that Constituional authority that permits the POTUS to act "offshore"?
Why did the general provision of the resolution not so constrain the POTUS to military means only?
#29. To: nolu chan (#24)
#73. To: nolu chan (#72)
Your untenable position, which my history lesson just viscerated, is that the AUMF of 2001 authorized the action in Yemen of CIA and military in killing American citizen al-Aulaqi.
#74. To: nolu chan (#72)
Two aspects of the resolution are key: First, the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack.
#75. To: nolu chan (#72)
No Authorization for the Use of Military Force authorizes the non-military CIA to do anything.
#76. To: war (#73)
I can cite "speeches" from the floor of the Senate made in the late 19th century in which the OPINION of a particular Senator, voting in the affirmative, stated that the 14th amendment did not convey birthright citizenship. You and I both **know** that it does in fact so convey.
#77. To: war (#73)
So, as I stated, I don't need the history lesson. What I do need is for you to offer a concise argument that your very narrow interpretation of the AUMF against Al Qaeda is the correct one.
(b) WAR POWERS RESOLUTION REQUIREMENTS.—
INTERPRETATION OF JOINT RESOLUTION
(1) from any provision of law (whether or not in effect before the date of the enactment of this joint resolution), including any provision contained in any appropriation Act, unless such provision specifically authorizes the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into such situations and states that it is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of this joint resolution; or
#78. To: war (#74)
Two aspects of the resolution are key: First, the use of force authority granted to the President extends only to the perpetrators of the September 11 attack.
Perpetrator. Generally, this term denotes the person who actually commits a crime or delict, or by whose immediate agency it occurs.
#79. To: war (#75)
Can you cite any law which forbids the CIA from acting in a military capacity?
Moreover, the fact that CIA operatives are most likely to coordinate targeted killings using the drone is also problematic. Since these operatives themselves do not conform to the laws of war, by failing to wear distinctive insignia and by not carrying arms openly, they may be subject to prosecution for war crimes.
#80. To: war (#74)
Oh...I forgot...you don't believe that there were planes...and that my own eyes and ears deceived me..."figments of my imagination" is what I believe you called them...
#81. To: A K A Stone (#42)
U.S. Const., Amdt 5: "No person shall be … deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…." If the AUMF is interpreted to bypass any provision of the Constitution, then it must be unconstitutional.
#82. To: nolu chan, cz82, war (#81)
#83. To: nolu chan (#80)
Oh...I forgot...you don't believe that there were planes...and that my own eyes and ears deceived me..
#84. To: Ferret Mike (#81)
#85. To: nolu chan (#80)
"I guess it will pass as your best attempt to create a diversion from your other debunked claims that you find yourself unable to defend with any substance."
#86. To: A K A Stone (#84)
#87. To: Ferret Mike (#86)
international law.
#88. To: Ferret Mike, war (#85)
He does that a lot you know. He is too lazy to do any research, and he hates it when he is wrong so he just pretends this is not so and tries to move on.
#89. To: A K A Stone, war (#88)
#90. To: A K A Stone (#83)
(Edited)
War. You weren't there. That has already been proven on the 911
thread.
#91. To: war (#90)
#92. To: Ferret Mike (#89)
support war's viewpoint,
#93. To: nolu chan (#77)
Apparently you need another history and law lesson. Congresscritters pass laws. They do not ratify amendments to the Constitution.
#94. To: nolu chan (#78)
#95. To: A K A Stone, Fred Mertz (#91)
#96. To: A K A Stone (#91)
"First watch your mouth or I will take out the trash."
#97. To: A K A Stone (#92)
"So you support the star chamber. Murder of American citizens. Got ya witch."
#98. To: war, A K A Stone (#90)
And stop censoring people,
#99. To: war (#90)
And stop censoring people,
#100. To: Sebastian (#0)
#101. To: war (#37)
[war #33] Please show me where "appropriate force" means "Shoot but not kill".
To give a more pointed edge to the legal position, it may be useful to compare two prominent instances of targeting enemy individuals in the course of World War II. In 1943, the US targeted the Commander-in-Chief of the Japanese Fleet, Admiral Yamamoto, whose plane was ambushed (subsequent to the successful breaking of the Japanese communication codes) and shot down over Bougainville.635 This was a faultless targeted killing. In contrast, the ambush of the car of SS General Heydrich in 1942 amounted to an exercise in unlawful combatancy. Heydrich — as a military officer — was a lawful target, just like Yamamoto. Still, the act constituted unlawful combatancy, since Heydrich was killed by members of the Free Czechoslovak army (parachuted from London) who were not wearing uniforms (see supra 99)636
Moreover, the fact that CIA operatives are most likely to coordinate targeted killings using the drone is also problematic. Since these operatives themselves do not conform to the laws of war, by failing to wear distinctive insignia and by not carrying arms openly, they may be subject to prosecution for war crimes.
#102. To: war (#94)
[war #94] Senator McCain:
What is "war"? Wars on drugs, on poverty, and on illiteracy are laudable political constructs but are not literally wars, of course. A state of war has wide-ranging repercussions in contracts, insurance, constitutional issues, neutrality, and governmental wartime emergency powers, not to mention the life and death issues played out on the battlefield. The "War on Terrorism" is not a war in the sense of Geneva Convention common Article 2 … not all armed conflicts are wars, but all wars are armed conflicts."
1.1. International Armed Conflict
SEC. 1034. AFFIRMATION OF ARMED CONFLICT WITH AL-QAEDA, THE TALIBAN, AND ASSOCIATED FORCES.
(1) the United States is engaged in an armed conf1ict with al-Qaeda) the Taliban) and associated forces and that those entities continue to pose a threat to the United States and its citizens, both domestically and abroad;
(A) are part of, or are substantially supporting, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners; or
Mr. VAN HOLLEN. Mr. Chair, this will be the first time that I have voted against a Defense Authorization Act and I do so with great reluctance. But I also do so with confidence that it is the right decision.
Mr. INSLEE. Mr. Chair, I rise today to express my concern over a provision in the National Defense Authorization Act of 2012 that would limit the access of certain military retirees to the TRICARE Uniformed Services Family Health Plan (USFHP).
Mr. STARK. Mr. Chair, I rise today in opposition to H.R. 1540, the National Defense Authorization Act.
The bill authorizes $690.1 billion for defense programs in FY12. This level of defense spending is almost as much as the rest of the world combined—most of which is done by friendly allies such as NATO (approximately $350 billion). It also includes an additional $118.9 billion in specific funds for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan without a plan for a full redeployment from the region. I am disappointed that amendments to require a rapid and thoughtful withdrawal from Afghanistan were not approved. For me, this is reason enough not to support this legislation.
Mr. QUIGLEY. Mr. Chair, I rise today in opposition to H.R. 1540, the National Defense Authorization Act for FY 2012.
Mr. ISRAEL. Mr. Speaker, last year, the House of Representatives approved historic legislation that repealed the Defense Department policy known as ‘‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.’’ For too long, this discriminatory policy forced many patriotic Americans who wanted to serve their nation to decide against military service, lie about their sexual orientation, or leave the military against their will. It was shameful that Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell was allowed to continue for so many years, and it gave me tremendous pride to support the policy’s repeal last year.
#103. To: war (#93)
#93. To: nolu chan (#77)
Apparently you need another history and law lesson. Congresscritters pass laws. They do not ratify amendments to the Constitution.
#104. To: war (#94)
[war #94] You've posted the floor speech of one of 535 members of the US Congress. Do you have 534 more stating that they share Byrd's opinion as to what was passed on 9/18/01.
#76. To: war (#73)
I can cite "speeches" from the floor of the Senate made in the late 19th century in which the OPINION of a particular Senator, voting in the affirmative, stated that the 14th amendment did not convey birthright citizenship. You and I both **know** that it does in fact so convey.
#105. To: war (#80)
Oh...I forgot...you don't believe that there were planes...and that my own eyes and ears deceived me..."figments of my imagination" is what I believe you called them...
#106. To: nolu chan (#102)
(Edited)
As for the McCain claim that "[w]e are at war with Al Qaeda and its affiliates," we are not at war. We are engaged in an armed conflict. McCain's misstatement does not change international law. He's the one who said Iran was training al Qaeda operatives and sang Bomb, bomb, Iran.
#107. To: nolu chan (#104)
(Edited)
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