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Title: The Electric Car Nightmare
Source:
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URL Source: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article30619.html
Published: Sep 26, 2011
Author: Andrew_McKillop
Post Date: 2011-09-26 14:12:16 by Capitalist Eric
Keywords: None
Views: 112698
Comments: 247
Electric car and low carbon energy boomers from Carlos Ghosn of Renault-Nissan and Dan Akerson of GM, to Sir Richard Branson, Al Gore, James Lovelock, Stewart Brand and a host of other promoters of the politically correct future never lose a chance preaching massive numbers of all electric cars in the national car fleets of every developed country by around 2020. To be sure, what "massive" means is variable geometry - it could be just a few million cars, it might be more and they hope out loud, a lot more. Ghosn says his firm will be able to crank out 1 million-a-year Leaf-type family electric saloons "by 2015", and much more after that. Other major car making chiefs like Akerson, and the chiefs of emerging giant automakers in China and India are less sure, or more cautious, but say they could easily match anything Renault-Nissan can do "within 10 or 15 years" if the market demand - and above all the government subsidies - are there. Ghosn thinks out loud that French and other European governments will jumpstart the electric car flood by handing out subsidies of up to 7000 euro on each electric car. For 1 million-a-year that would be a cool 7 billion euro-a-year tinkling through Renault-Nissan cash registers, handed out by generous, but unfortunately stony broke European governments. Is that credible ? Is that sustainable ? We also need to believe there will be magic scientific breakthroughs with electric car batteries, making them cheaper, easier and faster to charge, have longer life times, and not flake out after a few hundred recharges in fast charge mode, using high voltage and high amperage charging instead of regular home voltage plug-in charging at a mere 5 kW a time. We will hope, with the car industry, that rare earth element supply will keep up with mass production of electric cars (needing strange expensive metals like neodymium for electric motor magnets), noting that present world supply is at present about 95 percent sourced from China, which does not intend to raise production, but cut it. We will suppose that battery swapping problems will be solved: each electric car in the hoped-for new and massive all electric car fleets of Europe, the US, Japan, China and India will need as many as 3 batteries, at around 12 000 euro each, to keep the cars running 24/7. Funky highway swap stations run by Better Place and other new entrant, nice business model players will look after this, we are told, backed by supposedly serious banks - seriously close to failure and needing new and massive bailouts of public cash again - like HSBC which arranged $ 350 million of loans for Better Place. ITS NIGHTTIME AND WINTER We are imagining all those problems were solved - and the electric power nightmare is now certain. If the electric car future happens - if the things are built and operated in the numbers that the boomers dream about in public - we are almost sure to get massive electric power system failures. Power down. Lights out. System breakdown. Take the case of Europe. Say the boomers' dream came true in Europe, with its all-green low carbon energy quest written into the laws and regulations of all 27 member states since December 2008. This says at least 20 percent of all energy in Europe must be renewable by 2020, and also that energy demand per unit economic output will be cut by 20 percent: energy economy will be promoted by all means, including cuts in transport energy demand. In Europe's cities of 2020, the European Commission says, the public will love bicycles, electric trams, electric trains and gas powered buses - and will adore electric cars. Road and land transport presently takes about 7.8 million barrels a day, or one-half of all oil consumed in Europe. Replacing even a tiny part of that with biofuels is such a no-no that the first target of replacing oil in transport, of 10 percent by 2020 (not even 20 percent, you note) was cut to 5.6 percent a few months after the December 2008 European low carbon quest was announced. This new modest 5.6 percent goal could itself be cut even further. So the natural solution is: electric cars, recharged by windmills and solar power stations in those glitzy powerpoint shows on a host of European Union Web sites. Who cares if its not possible ? THE NIGHMARE COMES By 2020, lets suppose a massive 8 percent of Europe's car fleet is "all electric". To be sure, that 8 percent doesnt seem massive to normal persons,but if we supposed the European car fleet didn't grow by one single unit from 2011, from today's count of about 210 million cars, that would make about 16 million all electrics needing very regular charging, on Europe's roads in the year 2020. These 16 million all electric cars on Europe's roads would need about 5 kW when their batteries are recharged. As we know already from user and driver studies for electric car owners they have a paranoid and constant fear of running out of juice. They compulsively recharge the battery whenever it shows even a slight fall of its charge. They like fast charge high power battery boosting (440 volt triphase current), when it is available - despite it being very bad for battery life. Supposedly, again according to Ghosn of Renault-Nissan, high power booster charging will be made available in "hundreds of cities", in France at some undefined date, hinting that generous green-minded president Sarkozy will look after the problem of who will pay for that. So its Sunday evening in winter in Europe, in the year 2020. Everybody with an electric car is worrying about their Monday morning crawl-in to work on those 8-lane highways with thousands of other drivers making it to work, at an average 10 miles-per-hour in their non-electric cars able to hit 100 miles-per-hour. In those urban daily crawl-ins the recommended battery stretching maximum cruise speed of about 40 miles-per-hour for electric cars is not such problem - but the battery charging mania is. Like we already know, electric cars are quiet, accelerate fast if the battery is charged, and as long as you dont run the heater and de-icer in winter or airconditioning in summer, the wipers, the headlamps, the in-car stereo, the GPS, telephone, computer and other power-consuming needs and gimmicks, you might get 100 miles with a fully charged battery, if you run economic for the last 30 or 40 miles of the charge, at a speed of 25 or 30 miles-per-hour. And that only costs about 35 000 euro for a Leaf ! HOW DO WE CHARGE THE THINGS ? Running real sweet and low, that is slow and economical in the daily crawl-in to work should not be a problem for proud owners of planet saving all electrics, but funny thing, Carlos Ghosn and Dan Akerson, and all the other boomers and promoters never say that. Our problem is that its Sunday night in winter, in Europe in 2020, and there are 16 million all electric cars out there to charge at 5 kW each. Its cold, the wind is not blowing so you can forget about windmills (Europe proudly has about 45 percent of the world's entire windfarm capacity, as of early 2011), and its nighttime, so those expensive solar power plants are also off-line. We will however be generous, and imagine that only 80 percent of the European all electric car fleet is going to be on charge at those somber moments. Say 13 million plugged in and needing 5 kW for 5 hours, to charge their big, heavy, low power storage capacity (able to store about the energy equivalent of 1 US gallon of fuel), and very expensive batteries. Down at Better Place and its highway battery swap station clones, imagine what they are doing on Sunday nights ? Charging batteries. To be sure, the electric car boomers never get on to how we supply the power, but we will. Charging 13 million cars, some 80 percent of a massive 8 percent of Europe's car fleet number of today, will make it necessary to find 5 x 13 million kilowatts of additional power. That is 65 million kilowatts of power. In the electricity business they talk megawatts, so the need is 65 000 MW. One way to understand what that means: in Carlos Ghosn's soft touch France of Nicolar Sarkozy, its much vaunted nuclear power programme - supplying the most national nuclear electric power in the world - has a total of 58 nuclear reactors with a combined total capacity of around 63 600 MW. That is if all of them could run at full power simultaneously - which they can't. It took France around 40 years to build up that 63 600 MW of nuclear capacity, we can add. So one way we could or might charge up a lot less than 8 percent of the European car fleet would be to build 65 000 MW of new electric power capacity. Since that in fact is not going to be possible - electric car owners will need to be told to not use their electric cars and use one or other of their family fleet of good old thermal-type cars, or take a day off, use bicycles or buses, work at home, or give up working entirely - after all, they are saving the planet by preventing global warming catastrophe ! Otherwise, it is easy to forecast what happens when around 13 million all electric cars plug-in simultaneously. We get total system overload, large area power cuts, and possible long term damage to overused power grids, transformer stations, and electrical equipment as power surges and collapses with the onslaught of demand. AND WHAT WOULD IT COST ? What would it cost to charge the hoped for mass market electric car fleets of 2020 ? This depends on how you do it. If we choose either offshore windfarms or nuclear power to do it, we have per-kilowatt capital costs of around 6000 euro in Europe. This is based on German, UK, Danish and other offshore windfarm construction and projects, and French EPR nuclear power plants being cumbersomely, slowly and expensively built at two-only locations in Europe (Finland, France). Each electric car costing the state 7000 euro in government hand-outs, would therefore also need about 30000 euro of invstment in new wind or nuclear power plants to handle its 5 kW power demand (and 3 times more if its needs 15 kW high charge boosting). The time limit would also be problem, but because we are discussing pure fantasy schemes and childish daydreams that does not matter. For amusement purposes, we could compare that 37000 euro total of subsidies-plus-power plant capacity needs, with the the lifetime average fuels costs of a normal thermal-type automobile - about 1600 litres of fuel, or 10 barrels, each year of its operating life. To be sure, $200-a-barrel oil, the favourite scary oil price forecast of Carlos Ghosn and Sir Richard Branson, would help make the electric car seem just a little less vanity tech. If we are talking solar power plants, plus nighttime storage of electricity able to supply 65 000 MW on demand the costs are so far out - if it was technically possible - there is no need even imagining them. We end up with a simple readout: we would need coal or gas power plants, but again for amusement purposes, we can give a price tag for charging less than 8 percent of Europe's fantasy fleet of all electric cars in the year 2020 using "low carbon" nuclear or offshore wind power. At 6000 euro per kilowatt, and 6 billion euro for 1000 MW of power generating capacity, we find that for 65 000 MW the spending need would be 378 billion euro. At a mere 1500 euro per kilowatt for coal fired plants with CCS, the price tag would only be around 95 billion euro - but who is going to pay ? IT WONT HAPPEN Welcome to the "all electric" car future - that will not happen. If it did, there would be a permanent threat of total breakdown for national, or even continental power grids in the European case. Anybody who believes in that "ecological" future is just plain stupid or too lazy to work out a few simple numbers.
Poster Comment: "Anybody who believes in that "ecological" future is just plain stupid or too lazy to work out a few simple numbers..." ***AHEM*** Paging goober56, Rat-boy mike, loonymom/whining-old, calCON and the REST of the stupid, lazy leftists on this forum... LOL.
Paging goober56, Rat-boy mike, loonymom/whining-old, calCON and the REST of the stupid, lazy leftists on this forum...
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#1. To: Capitalist Eric (#0)
Stop posting your dull-witted drivel.
------------------------------------- What, are you mad that I didn't mention your name in the list of stupid, dull- witted and lazy leftist losers? I'll try to remember next time. For now, if you have a problem with the article, please post something of substance, or kindly STFU.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 You thought your joke was so funny you put it in your tagline so everyone could see it. Loser.
------------------------------------- Translation: You're desperately trying to derail the thread. DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 I thought your mail order bride was Russian.
Oh Eric, that is funny!
"You post articles- intellectual excrement, really- that support your inane, insipid mentality, on a regular basis. Capitalist Eric
Capitalist eDick is always comical as he rants and rails against the global warming that is so obviously happening, or any conveyance other then something like a large SUV which is what I'm sure he drives. To him, it just can't be true unles it resembles the sort of copy one finds in Archie comic books.
He's too stupid to realize that which I will not tell him...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
When you leftist losers knee-jerk back to the 25 rules of disinformation (coupled with Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals,"), you confirm what I already knew: you've got nothing to contradict the facts of the article. And with that I'll say to you all: "Thanks for playing, asshat!" Ping to the rest for your amusement.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 Read my tag line, Eric.
"You post articles- intellectual excrement, really- that support your inane, insipid mentality, on a regular basis. Capitalist Eric
Oh, GOODY! Trying to be clever, eh? Sadly, you failed. As usual. Were I so inclined, I'd perform a statistical analysis posting the veracity and accuracy of the articles and comments I post, against yours... But I'm not. Frankly, you're just aren't worth the time it would take, to rub your nose in your own shit... Even when directly confronted with facts, you still insist that your wishful-thinking trumps reality. WebMD describes your situation perfectly, HERE: People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted. Although delusions might be a symptom of more common disorders, such as schizophrenia, delusional disorder itself is rather rare. Delusional disorder most often occurs in middle to late life and is slightly more common in women than in men. And there you have it... You're mentally ill, loonymom. So there's no point in demonstrating how consistently wrong you are, in everything you post. You're happy in your delusions, and have no interest in facing real life. You're happy to be a parasite on the rest of society, with the motto of "gimme, gimme, GIMME!" You're happy to be a sheep, bleating with the rest of the herd, waiting to be fleeced. And finally, you're happy to attack ANYONE who refuses to be deluded as you are. Go see a psychiatrist... you need help.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 Pretty much summed yourself up there, Jr.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
I don't specialize in mental disorders, but it's a convenient way to get the point across. You're starting to look more desperate than usual... If you have something of substance, we're still waiting... Something to refute the article, perhaps??? Hmmmmmmmm??? It's obvious you're getting desperate for attention...
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 you've got nothing to contradict the facts of the article. And THAT is why it's next to impossible to find an honest socialist to debate reality. It's a losing argument. IF they admit the obvious, they've admitted to consent of the destruction of "America as we know it." The safe play for 98% of forum leftists/socialists is...slinging batsh*t disinformation by the ton, changing the subject, tangential emoting, joking instead, dismissing the subject, acting dopey, and creating strawmen.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
At 6000 euro per kilowatt, and 6 billion euro for 1000 MW of power generating capacity, we find that for 65 000 MW the spending need would be 378 billion euro. At a mere 1500 euro per kilowatt for coal fired plants with CCS, the price tag would only be around 95 billion euro - but who is going to pay ? Pounding THIS horsesh*t into the pods' heads as a "solution" to our energy needs is beyond ridiculous... Besides these batteries being a net negative to the environment, it's unfeasible unreliable and inconvenient for anything more than local driving. Why would people pay $40,000 on this roll of the transportation dice? They won't. It's ONLY the elites and guilty liberal white metrosexual who will be the only ones buying them - mostly as a style statement or in support of the new state religion: SOCIALISM.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
Actually, if youtry to argue in good faith with Capitalist eDick you only get belittlements and insults back. He has gotten courtesy and reasonable replies from me before and if there is no reciprocation, he gets the response he asks for. Exactly what you get from the eDick who only likes to make edicts, not discussion.
To him, it just can't be true unles it resembles the sort of copy one finds in Archie comic books. Congratulations are in order to Mike for at least dedicating 17% of his post to addressing the issue of this thread. The rest of you are mentally impotent. Mike...Do you really believe electric cars are a solution to energy needs OR viable transportation option? Even IF this so-called "global warming that is so obviously happening" is a concern, isn't it true that Planet Earth historically does what she wants WHEN she wants? Q: Have scientists found SUV fossils from the last Ice Age embedded in the Great White North?
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
Eric, Mike has more often than not impressed me as a socialist who is able to discuss issues without personal animus getting in the way. Are you able to discuss this subject on those terms with him?
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
When someone's arrogance and attacks have earned my personal animus, they get that. I've been somewhat more forgiving towards people like Mad Dog because face it, what is the good of insulting the insane? Eric has no intention of giving any opponent in an argument or issue any quarter, thus none is given him.
Exactly what you get from the eDick who only likes to make edicts, not discussion. Yeah, I understand, but why then did the forum leftists comment at all? IMO, this forum's socialist jackels are LP's statist version of yukon, Grand Island, and Gatlin. Debate and analysis is hijacked 95% of the time. What's the use other than peeing on their "territory"?
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
Why ask the whys that emanate from problems with the sort of moderation management provides? You are talking atmosphere here, and any issue concerning it can be easily managed. Perhaps the manager can explain why he prefers bombastic verbal rollar derby instead of having a level playing field and clear will defined and maintained standards that produce a good forum?
OK, so conservatives hate trains AND in general any devices that use electricity for locomotion. Maybe they are addicted to sniffing gasoline and that explains their irrational hatred of things that don't use gas?
"This is what economic policy in the West has become--a tool of the wealthy used to enrich themselves by spreading poverty among the rest of the population." Paul Craig Roberts
Lol, great description.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
LOL... Hey, rat-boy....? PSSSSSSSST........... A couple of our vehicles... left is a clone to my daily driver, right is identical to my wife's vehicle: As usual, you're WRONG.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 Are you able to discuss this subject on those terms with him? rat-boy mike is more clever than your typical socialist... but that does not confer to him a level of intellectual honesty that is superior than that of the others. For example, consider my reply above, where he passes off global warming as... "so obviously happening," when the reality is that it is not only not "obvious," it has been empirically demonstrated that it's just not happening. In other words, when you get down to brass tacks, he can no more discuss objective facts than loonymom. Another example: he gave his "opus" several months ago to Stone, said something along the lines of "oh, I'm done with this place, I don't get free speech," all that crap... And then he comes slithering back in... as soon as I called him on it, coming back after he was so adament about this place being unfair, he bozoed me, and now prefers to take cheap pot-shots... As I told loonymom on another thread, everybody deserves a certain amount of respect upon first meeting, whether a CEO, a janitor or a homeless person. Whether that respect goes up or down from there, is strictly a function of that persons' behavior. rat-boy mike deserves- and gets- none. Edit: As to animus, nothing angers me off more than some schmuck trying to piss on my shoes, and then tell me it's raining... The socialist sheeple may be sufficiently stupid to buy into that crap... and I'll put the facts out there for them to understand... but when they refuse to accept objective reality, then their either too brainwashed or too delusional to think for themselves... And for them, facts be damned. My mother has made the observation on several occasions, "Eric, you've no patience for fools."
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 Here are the results of honest socialism: You know, your point is excellent. I think it's very appropriate to have occasional reminders of what the resident leftists really want. Thank you.
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 What the Leftards just refuse to believe is that most of them will end up just like those in JW's picture.... They don't realize/care that their masters could give a shit less about them, that they are only a means to an end.... Maybe they should start reading some some history of Socialism/Fascism/ Communism/Naziism!!!!
"CHANGE" you can step in..... From Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation (Includes The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist) by H. Michael Sweeney. These 25 rules are everywhere in media, from political debates, to television shows, to comments on a blog. 1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. Regardless of what you know, don’t discuss it - especially if you are a public figure, news anchor, etc. If it’s not reported, it didn’t happen, and you never have to deal with the issues. 2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit. 3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such “arguable rumors”. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a “wild rumor” which can have no basis in fact. 4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. 5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues. 6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to- the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning - simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint. 7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive. 8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources. 9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect. 10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with. Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually them be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues - so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source. 11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions. Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the “high road” and “confess” with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made - but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, “just isn’t so.” Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later. Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for “coming clean” and “owning up” to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues. 12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues. 13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards with an apparent deductive logic in a way that forbears any actual material fact. 14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best for items qualifying for rule 10. 15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place. 16. Vanishing evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won’t have to address the issue. 17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can “argue” with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues. 18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can’t do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how “sensitive they are to criticism”. 19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the “play dumb” rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance. 20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications. 21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed an unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict (usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim) is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. 22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively. 23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes. 24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of their character by release of blackmail information, or merely by proper intimidation with blackmail or other threats. 25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.
"CHANGE" you can step in..... Them that can...do...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
I will when you will, JR... Deal?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
??????
DUMMY DwarF: ...I'm eating a meatball... http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=24347&Disp=35#C35 That's because socialists are dreamers. They dream up plans where the world would be perfect if every tiny little detail of their dreams worked perfectly. The problem is the world is and will always be a imperfect place because humans are imperfect by nature,and any dream you have that operates contrary to human nature is doomed to fail. Socialism/communism works GREAT for families and small communities,but falls apart when you get a population base any bigger than that. People GENERALLY don't mind sharing with and sacrificing for people they are related to or know personally,but close off when you want them to share with and sacrifice for people they don't know. It has always been that way and it will always be that way.
"I adore John McCain, support him 100 percent and will do everything I can to support his reelection. As everyone knows, I was honored and proud to run with him. And Todd and I were with him in D.C. just a week ago." (Sarah Palin,Dec 2009) ************************************ DID Palin say or write these things or not? (Me) I don't know or F ing care. (Mad Dog posted on 2009-12-26 16:36:33 ET,post # 105 http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=5510&Disp=114#C114)
The problem is the world is and will always be a imperfect place because humans are imperfect by nature,and any dream you have that operates contrary to human nature is doomed to fail. Yeah, tiny details like working the Commie system to avoid work OR to coronate oneself an elite and rule over the rest. The utopian socialist wet dream paradise is cute....but ONLY to those parasites in college who feel entitled to have others pay their freight, entitled to be be a parasitic fat-azz paid to grow their azzes even larger in front of a tee-bee, or Union thugs insisting that they are entitled to doctor's wages for pushing a broom or pencil. Gee, can I declare myself leader of the Liberty's Flame newly created Politboro? These socialists can NOT get through their collectivist numb-skulls that human nature has not made us all equal in either ability or motivation. It is true that we are naturally FREE. NOT tribal slaves to the whims of other czar wannabes. Socialism/communism works GREAT for families and small communities,but falls apart when you get a population base any bigger than that. People GENERALLY don't mind sharing with and sacrificing for people they are related to or know personally,but close off when you want them to share with and sacrifice for people they don't know. It has always been that way and it will always be that way. Yep. And in a sense every society or family is socialist to a degree. But wholesale charity is OPTIONAL and subjective. Not mandatory. Coerced communism goes against every fiber of man's instinct.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation (Includes The 8 Traits of A Disinformationalist) by H. Michael Sweeney. These 25 rules are everywhere in media, from political debates, to television shows, to comments on a blog. Nice reference point. Interestingly enough, I notice your bullet-points also happen to apply to a certain porno-post closet-busting canary. :-)
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
ALL of the 25 are used by both socialists and statist-fluffers.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
HA! Socialism's Great legacy.
"It's not surprising, then, they [White Pennsylvanians] get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations." ~ Comrade-in-Chief Barry Hussein 0bama
Chuckles... It's over, Junior. Bluff called...you folded... [snicker]
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
I've read through the article on three separate occasions now and still don't get the point of it. Why do conservatives believe that once something is invented that it has to be an immediate success or it's a failure?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
What do skulls have to do with electric cars? Excuse me for not pinging the dumbfuck you responded to but he has me on filter because he was tired of getting his ass kicked.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Comments (41 - 247) not displayed.
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Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#2. To: Biff Tannen (#1)
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff? 
#3. To: Capitalist Eric (#2)
Why don't you make like a tree and get out of here?
#4. To: (#3)
You thought your joke was so funny you put it in your tagline so everyone could see it. Loser.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff? 
#5. To: Capitalist Eric (#4)
Translation: You're desperately trying to derail the thread.
#6. To: Capitalist Eric, Ferret Mike, mininggold, war, Fed Mertz, All (#2)
For now, if you have a problem with the article, please post something of substance, or kindly STFU.
#7. To: lucysmom (#6)
"Oh Eric, that is funny!"
#8. To: Biff Tannen (#3)
You thought your joke was so funny you put it in your tagline so everyone could see it.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#9. To: lucysmom, Ferret Mike, mininggold, war, Fed Mertz, A K A Stone, Badeye, jwpegler, CZ82, nolu chan, hondo68, eskimo, socalv8, sneakypete, Mad Dog, Liberator (#6)
Oh Eric, that is funny!
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#10. To: Capitalist Eric (#9)
When you leftist losers knee-jerk back to the 25 rules of disinformation (coupled with Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals,"), you confirm what I already knew: you've got nothing to contradict the facts of the article.
#11. To: lucysmom (#10)
Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#12. To: Capitalist Eric (#11)
WebMD
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#13. To: war (#12)
Pretty much summed yourself up...
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#14. To: Capitalist Eric, lucysmom, Ferret Mike, mininggold, war, Fed Mertz, A K A Stone, Badeye, jwpegler, CZ82, nolu chan, hondo68, eskimo, socalv8, sneakypete, Mad Dog (#9)
When you leftist losers knee-jerk back to the 25 rules of disinformation (coupled with Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals,"), you confirm what I already knew:
#15. To: Capitalist Eric (#0)
If we are talking solar power plants, plus nighttime storage of electricity able to supply 65 000 MW on demand the costs are so far out - if it was technically possible - there is no need even imagining them. We end up with a simple readout: we would need coal or gas power plants, but again for amusement purposes, we can give a price tag for charging less than 8 percent of Europe's fantasy fleet of all electric cars in the year 2020 using "low carbon" nuclear or offshore wind power.
#16. To: Liberator (#14)
"IF they admit the obvious, they've admitted to consent of the destruction of "America as we know it.""
...slinging batshit disinformation by the ton, changing the subject, tangential emoting, joking instead, dismissing the subject, acting dopey, and creating strawmen."
#17. To: Ferret Mike, Capitalist Eric, all LF's socialists (#7)
Capitalist eDick is always comical as he rants and rails against the global warming that is so obviously happening, or any conveyance other then something like a large SUV which is what I'm sure he drives.
#18. To: Ferret Mike, Capitalist Eric (#16)
(Edited)
Actually, if youtry to argue in good faith with Capitalist eDick you only get belittlements and insults back. He has gotten courtesy and reasonable replies from me before and if there is no reciprocation, he gets the response he asks for.
#19. To: Liberator (#18)
(Edited)
#20. To: Ferret Mike, Site LiberalsSocialists (#16)
(...slinging batshit disinformation by the ton, changing the subject, tangential emoting, joking instead, dismissing the subject, acting dopey, and creating strawmen.")
#21. To: Liberator, A K A Stone (#20)
"Yeah, I understand, but why then did the forum leftists comment at all?"
#22. To: war (#12)
#23. To: Ferret Mike (#21)
bombastic verbal rollar derby
#24. To: Ferret Mike (#7)
Capitalist eDick is always comical as he rants and rails against the global warming that is so obviously happening,
a little *hint* for you:
or any conveyance other then something like a large SUV which is what I'm sure he drives.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#25. To: Liberator (#18)
(Edited)
Eric, Mike has more often than not impressed me as a socialist who is able to discuss issues without personal animus getting in the way.
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#26. To: Liberator (#14)
an honest socialist
That government is best which governs not at all -- Henry David Thoreau
#27. To: jwpegler (#26)
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#28. To: Capitalist Eric (#27)
I think it's very appropriate to have occasional reminders of what the resident leftists really want.
My dogs have created more shovel ready jobs than the self appointed Messiah!!!
#29. To: Capitalist Eric, All LF Website Socialists (#9)
When you leftist losers knee-jerk back to the 25 rules of disinformation (coupled with Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals,"), you confirm what I already knew: you've got nothing to contradict the facts of the article.
My dogs have created more shovel ready jobs than the self appointed Messiah!!!
#30. To: Capitalist Eric (#13)
I don't specialize in mental disorders
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#31. To: Capitalist Eric, lucysmom, All (#13)
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#32. To: war (#31)
Capitalist Eric: Foreplay before the president's staff?
#33. To: Liberator, Capitalist Eric, lucysmom, Ferret Mike, mininggold, war, Fed Mertz, A K A Stone, Badeye, jwpegler, CZ82, nolu chan, hondo68, eskimo, socalv8, Mad Dog (#14)
it's next to impossible to find an honest socialist to debate reality.
#34. To: sneakypete, Capitalist Eric, lucysmom, Ferret Mike, mininggold, war, Fed Mertz, A K A Stone, Badeye, jwpegler, CZ82, nolu chan, hondo68, eskimo, socalv8, Mad Dog (#33)
Socialists are dreamers. They dream up plans where the world would be perfect if every tiny little detail of their dreams worked perfectly.
#35. To: CZ82 (#29)
To: Capitalist Eric, All LF Website Socialists...
#36. To: CZ82 (#29)
#37. To: jwpegler (#26)
Here are the results of honest socialism:
#38. To: Capitalist Eric (#32)
??????
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#39. To: Godwinson (#22)
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#40. To: Liberator (#37)
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
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