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Foreign Invaders crisis cost $150B in 2023, forcing some areas to cut police and fire services: report Israel kills head of Hezbollah Intelligence. Tenn. AG reveals ICE released thousands of ‘murderers and rapists’ from detention centers into US streets Kamala Harris Touts Mass Amnesty Offering Fast-Tracked Citizenship to Nearly Every Illegal Alien in U.S. Migration Crisis Fueled Rise in Tuberculosis Cases Study Finds "They’re Going to Try to Kill Trump Again" Status: Not Logged In; Sign In Cult Watch See other Cult Watch Articles Title: Times Atlas grossly exaggerates Greenland ice loss Source: NewScientist URL Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article ... DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news Published: Sep 20, 2011 Author: Catherine Brahic Post Date: 2011-09-20 14:19:58 by Get Outta Dodge! Keywords: None Views: 17364 Comments: 35 Erroneous data about how much ice is vanishing due to climate change are once more at the heart of an explosive controversy. This time, it's not the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, but the venerable Times Comprehensive Atlas of the World that is in the line of fire. Journalists across the UK received glossy press packs last week for the launch of a new edition. It included a press release declaring that: "For the first time, the new edition […] has had to erase 15 per cent of Greenland's once permanent ice cover – turning an area the size of the UK and Ireland 'green' and ice-free. This is concrete evidence of how climate change is altering the face of the planet forever." Today glaciologists have been crying foul, saying that the 15 per cent figure is wildly inaccurate. When New Scientist contacted the Times Atlas team last week to find out where they had obtained the number, they cited the National Snow and Ice Data Centre (NSIDC) in Boulder, Colorado, but were unable to be more precise. Little rise, big mistake Ted Scambos, the NSIDC's expert on the Greenland ice sheet, says neither he nor his colleagues were consulted in person. "Graduate students would not have made a mistake like this," he told New Scientist. "If what The Times has said were true, something like a metre of sea level rise would have occurred in the past decade." That is nowhere near what measurements show. "Currently, Greenland is losing mass at about a rate of 150 billion tonnes per year, or about one-third of a millimetre of sea level rise per year," says Scambos. That means in the 12-year period from 1999 to 2011 that the Times Atlas analysed, meltwater from the Greenland ice sheet has contributed roughly 3 mm to global sea level rise – not 1 metre. In total, the Greenland ice sheet holds enough ice to raise global sea level by about 7 metres, so the loss since 1999 has been less than 0.05 per cent. Thickness, not surface area Those numbers correspond to the mass of ice that has been lost, not how much the surface extent has shrunk, as seen from space or in a map. Mass loss is the preferred measurement for glaciologists as it takes into account the thickness of the ice. Scambos says the decrease in surface extent would have been "similarly tiny". So what went wrong? Today, the Times Atlas team were unable to say whether they had spoken directly to the NSIDC. The team say they downloaded records of ice thickness directly from the NSIDC website, used them to extrapolate the surface extent of the ice that needed to be mapped, and then compared it to what they had published in 1999. When they did so, they found their dramatic ice loss. But Scambos says the thickness records are not intended to show the edge of the ice sheet, so it's likely that without consulting a glaciologist directly, the cartographers misinterpreted the data. "We are still trying to catch up on what went wrong," says Mark Serreze, adding that the datasets are very complex. "Clearly whoever did this analysis made their own interpretation of the data. At NSIDC we made no statement of a 15 per cent ice loss. We do not know where that number has come from. There has been some kind of error, or some kind of mis-assessment of the data. We're not sure. We're trying to track it down." The error is doubly unfortunate, says Scambos, because the public may look at the smaller but real numbers and deem them insignificant. But the rate at which Greenland is losing ice is accelerating. The ice sheet will have made a substantial contribution to sea level rise before the end of the century, he says, and the implications are "very serious if it keeps going at the rate that we're seeing". Click for Full Text! Poster Comment: More dis-info from the "sky-is-falling" crowd - though one of the scientists quoted (Scambos) tries to redeem himself (translation: not risk losing funding) at the end of the article. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest #1. To: All, war, war's ventriloquist dummy skippy, go65, Brian S. (#0) Indeed. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   14:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #2. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#0) Gee, I wonder why they named it 'Greenland'..... Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao Badeye  posted on  2011-09-20   14:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#0) (Edited) More dis-info from the "sky-is-falling" crowd - though one of the scientists quoted (Scambos) tries to redeem himself (translation: not risk losing funding) at the end of the article. Suckers...who publishes The Times Atlas? The fact is, climatologists came forward to call this Murdoch owned publication out for its error. To claim that it was put out by climatologists is simply a lie. America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   14:28:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#0) Isn't science great? It was the scientists who found this error and made a big deal out of it. Try that with the religious lunatics and see what happens. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:28:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: war (#3) The fact is, climatologists came forward to call this Murdoch owned publication out for its error. This will be totally incomprehensible to the science haters here. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:29:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: Skip Intro, Get Outta Dodge (#4) Isn't science great? It was the scientists who found this error and made a big deal out of it. Try that with the religious lunatics and see what happens. G-O-D conveniently ignored that fact and blamed them anyway... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   14:29:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: war (#6) G-O-D conveniently ignored that fact and blamed them anyway... Yeah. See #5 above. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: Skip Intro (#5) (Edited) #2. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#0) Gee, I wonder why they named it 'Greenland'..... Badeye posted on 2011-09-20 14:21:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Is there any poster who provides as many "Wah...chuckle...huh?" moments as The Boof? America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   14:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: war, Boofer (#8) Gee, I wonder why they named it 'Greenland'..... A ten second Internet search would clear that right up. It's funny that a guy who claims his business is gathering information doesn't know that. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: Skip Intro, war (#4) (Edited) Try that with the religious lunatics and see what happens. It is amazing, isn't it? You could have an ice-sheet a mile thick covering the mid west and you Left wingnut religious loons would still cry "global warming." Besides, what's to worry? Isn't your messiah going to lower the sea level? __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   14:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #11. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#10) Wha...chuckle...huh? YOU posted yet another article that you didn't actually read...or...if you read it...you didn't comprehend it... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   14:46:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #12. To: Skip Intro (#9) It's funny Sarcasm usually is, to bad you don't recognize it skippy. Get back to me when you can read your own graphs, kid. Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao Badeye  posted on  2011-09-20   14:47:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #13. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#10) Besides, what's to worry? Isn't your messiah going to lower the sea level? lmao...that'll leave a mark.... Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao Badeye  posted on  2011-09-20   14:48:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #14. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#10) Try READING your own article before you make a bigger fool out of yourself. It was Rupert Murdoch's News International that screwed up. It was the climatologists who called him on it. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:57:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: Get Outta Dodge!, Skip Intro, war (#10) You could have an ice-sheet a mile thick covering the mid west and you Left wingnut religious loons would still cry "global warming." Right wing religious nuts in America declared the ice age as a falsehood when the theory first was introduced. In fact, there are many in the religious right who still deny the ice age. With the economy still in the dumper -- maybe permanently? -- and full-time jobs becoming as scarce as rain during a drought, huge percentages of Americans have had their (misplaced) faith in the American dream shaken, the upper-middle-class consumerist lifestyle is exposed as a mirage for anybody who plays by the rules. Capitalism and the America that embraced it as a way of life is now and forever more a failure. It does me good to know that the generation that voted in Reagan and his ideology will see their America die from that ideology before their very own eyes and knowing they had a hand in its destruction. Godwinson  posted on  2011-09-20   14:58:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #16. To: Godwinson (#15) In fact, there are many in the religious right who still deny the ice age. Of course they do. It happened before God created the universe so obviously it's false. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   14:59:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #17. To: war, war's ventriloquist dummy skippy (#11) It is amazing, isn't it? You could have an ice-sheet a mile thick covering the mid west and you Left wingnut religious loons would still cry "global warming." Besides, what's to worry? Isn't your messiah going to lower the sea level? YOU posted yet another article that you didn't actually read...or...if you read it...you didn't comprehend it... Nope. If you look carefully, you'll notice that I addressed my post to you and Skippy (aka leftwingnut religious loons) - NOT to the scientists who wrote the article. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:01:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #18. To: Badeye (#13) Explains your "freckles" but not much else... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #19. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#17) Wha...huh? America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:01:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: Godwinson (#15) IIRC, Stone screwed up and admitted that it happened but I think "God" whacked him on the head and he back pedaled... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:03:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #21. To: Godwinson, Skippy (#15) In fact, there are many in the religious right who still deny the ice age. Hey Goody! I've heard there are some right wing religious whackos in West Virginia (probably relatives of yours) who handle rattlesnakes. Why don't you go check them out? Take your asshole buddy Skippy with you. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:04:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #22. To: war (#19) Stuttering can be treated, you know. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:05:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #23. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#17) You could have an ice-sheet a mile thick covering the mid west and you Left wingnut religious loons would still cry "global warming." You really doubt there's global warming? Not man made global warming, but plain old global warming. Obama is the most Republican Democrat I have ever seen. Skip Intro  posted on  2011-09-20   15:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #24. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#22) Stuttering can be treated, you know. I do know that but I see no reason to put you on bozo... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:07:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: Skip Intro (#23) (Edited) You really doubt there's global warming? Not man made global warming, but plain old global warming. Our sun is in its mid-life. From what I've heard, it's going to gradually become a red giant. Eventually the Earth will be Venus - and mankind if he is to survive may have to relocate to Mars. So yes - there has been cooling and now there is warming. Whether or not I drive an SUV is irrelevant to that process. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:10:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #26. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#25) You didn't answer the question... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #27. To: war (#26) You didn't answer the question... I thought my SUV comment answered the question, but okay - I'll spell it out: No - I do not believe mankind is making a significant impact on the climate. Certainly less than one major volcanic eruption. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:14:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #28. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#27) Certainly less than one major volcanic eruption. You still didn't answer the question. You were asked..."Is the earth warming - regardless of 'why'?" America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #29. To: war (#28) (Edited) You still didn't answer the question. Go re-read my post #25. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:19:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #30. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#29) (Edited) Okay...I did. The only information gleaned from that post is that you're wrong about volcanoes and their output of greenhouse gases versus those put out ny man. And, if you are implying here that volcanoes cause "warming", the science actually shows the opposite...that the upper level particulates tend to induce a temporary cooling... So, again, do you believe that global temperatures are rising? America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   15:23:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #31. To: war (#30) The only information gleaned from that post is that you're wrong about volcanoes and their output of greenhouse gases versus those put out ny man. Well, I never claimed to be a volcanologist. But come to think of it, I do remember reading that the eruption of Krakatoa in the late 1800s did cause cooler temps worldwide for several years thereafter. And, if you are implying here that volcanoes cause "warming", the science actually shows the opposite...that the upper level particulates tend to induce a temporary cooling... So there you have it. God will cause volcanoes to erupt if and when the climate otherwise would get too warm. That will offset the effect. Yes, that's a somewhat flippant answer - but I do believe in God the Creator. Having said that, it follows that I believe He will not allow mankind to destroy His creation. Atheists and agnostics - feel free to believe otherwise. Drive your Prius' till your heart's content. So, again, do you believe that global temperatures are rising? I recall from my HS Earth Science classes that evidence showed that Earth has gone through many climatic cycles - both warm and cold. I'm not sure why people find that controversial. __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   15:54:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #32. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#31) I recall from my HS Earth Science classes that evidence showed that Earth has gone through many climatic cycles - both warm and cold. Good for you that the drugs didn't dull everything from HS... You still didn't answer the question... But that's okay...we know why... America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   16:05:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #33. To: Get Outta Dodge!, Skip Intro (#21) I've heard there are some right wing religious whackos in West Virginia (probably relatives of yours) who handle rattlesnakes. I do have some relatives in West Virginia , actually. My American relatives tend to be rednecks. With the economy still in the dumper -- maybe permanently? -- and full-time jobs becoming as scarce as rain during a drought, huge percentages of Americans have had their (misplaced) faith in the American dream shaken, the upper-middle-class consumerist lifestyle is exposed as a mirage for anybody who plays by the rules. Capitalism and the America that embraced it as a way of life is now and forever more a failure. It does me good to know that the generation that voted in Reagan and his ideology will see their America die from that ideology before their very own eyes and knowing they had a hand in its destruction. Godwinson  posted on  2011-09-20   16:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: war (#32) You still didn't answer the question... Wow - are you always this obtuse? Okay - for now and the next several months, the climate where I live (in the NE United States in the Northern Hemisphere) is going to be getting cooler. Not only that, but the period of darkness (otherwise known as "night") will lengthen, while the period of light (otherwise known as "day") will decrease. Scary stuff, huh? But I have it on pretty good authority that sometime in December, the situation will actually begin to reverse. Neat, huh? Now, since I am not a climatologist I cannot delve much further on my own - I must rely on others. But you know what? Some say the earth is getting cooler. But others (among them the esteemed scientist Algore) say just the opposite. Some say it's getting warmer and mankind is cauing it. Others say it's getting warmer and mankind is not causing it. So I just have to throw up my hands and say "What the Hell?" and just continue to live my life. It all boils down to what I wrote earlier, the Sun's going to eventually become a Red-Giant anyway - so all these arguments are moot. Now - you can keep droning on and on that "I haven't answered your question". But I have. The answer is - I don't know. It may be getting warmer. It may be getting cooler. It may be staying constant. Things that I cannot influence I tend not to worry about. But that's okay...we know why... Actually . . . . I don't. Perhaps you can enlighten me? __________________________________________________________________________________________ ABC NEWS: [Ron Paul] added that the United States is in 130 countries and has 900 bases around the world, and added that “we’re broke.”. He was booed at a Tea-Party debate. Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Statist and all ships at sea. Your demonization of the Tea Party has worked - you need no longer fear it! Carry on!! Get Outta Dodge!  posted on  2011-09-20   16:39:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #35. To: Get Outta Dodge! (#34) (Edited) The earth is warming and has been. Only the TRULY obtuse believe otherwise. It's pretty obvious, though and as personified by you, that you realize that the earth is warming and, given your inanity of volcanoes v. man, which a simple google reveals as untrue, it's pretty obvious that you know that some of it, at least, has to be androgenic. You're a smart guy. You know that all cycles are not created equal and that all have been initiated and/or sustained by different factors...so, it's remarkable that you know all this but are still able to rationalize that an increasing global population with an increasing detritus - much of it toxic - has no measurable effect. But I'm the one who's obtuse. America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." --GW Bush "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" --Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything... war  posted on  2011-09-20   18:24:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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