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Title: Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era
Source:
huffingtonpost.com
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/ ... countries-reagan_n_882270.html
Published: Jun 22, 2011
Author: Alex Wagner
Post Date: 2011-06-22 22:23:39 by Godwinson
Keywords: None
Views: 44257
Comments: 67
Stocks Of Socialized Countries Have Outperformed U.S. Since Reagan Era Alex Wagner First Posted: 06/22/11 02:49 PM ET Updated: 06/22/11 03:35 PM ET American traders aren't likely to take kindly to the suggestion that big government might be good for the stock market. But data from a paper on the job- and income-growth of top earners shows that stock prices in some socialized countries, relative to themselves and adjusted for inflation, have done considerably better than those in the U.S over the last two and a half decades. Specifically, during the twenty five years after Ronald Reagan took office -- a pro-market honeymoon that Ryan Chittum of the Columbia Journalism Review this week termed "the ascent of laissez-faire economic policies" -- French stock prices have performed significantly better than Americans ones, according to the report by Jon Bakija, Adam Cole, and Bradley Heim. A further examination of the 39-year period extending from the end of the Nixon administration until 2008 shows the Swedish economy, known for its high taxes and heavy regulation, growing at a significantly higher rate than the US. The authors conclude that big government might not actually stand in contradiction to a productive economy: "Countries with typically high levels of government involvement in the economy, such as Sweden, Denmark and Canada, do not appear to have experienced stifled economic growth relative to countries where government involvement is more limited, like the US," the report says. With bastions of socialism -- Sweden Canada and France -- outpacing American market prices, does this mean it's time for Wall Streeters to start calling croissants "Freedom bagels?" Probably not. According to Jacob Funk Kirkegaard, a research fellow specializing in European economies at the Peterson Institute for International Economics, the disparity between the American and European markets might have more to do with the period in question than governmental forces. "In 1981, [Francois] Mitterand was elected president of France, and the first thing he did was to nationalize a bunch of French businesses and most of the banking system," Kirkegaard explained. "But going forward, France has moved quite dramatically towards a market-oriented economy, though not anywhere near the scope of market and economic freedom as perceived in the U.S." If Swedish and French markets have shown considerable strength compared to American ones, Kirkegaard posited that "these countries benefited from a more rapid shift to a market economy than in the U.S. over this period. The starting point was much more hostile. That’s what you see in the growth." That said, Kirkegaard also dismissed the traditional American capitalist contention that socialism is bad for market growth: "A lot of the finger-pointing we do at these countries is totally misleading. It's a myth." Kirkegaard says that many socialized governments provide critical support for business growth, including first class infrastructure built by the public sector, retraining of workers and public education systems that result in better-prepared workforces, comparative to the US. "There are a lot of areas where the role of government is a benefit for the businesses in these countries." "The idea that they are socialists and condemned to living in these bread bin-style housing complexes is illusional," he said. "It's ideological slander." Compare the stocks of Japan, France, and U.S., or get the report here: 
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#1. To: Godwinson (#0)
The ultimate example would be Germany. Pre-WWII. Socialism takes money from the average citizens, and feeds it to the government's pet-projects, usually in corporations. That they would do better by living off the life-blood of the citizens, is common sense. Of course, without such subsidies, the story would be very different... Even WITH subsidies, some companies have a hard time being competitive. Airbus comes to mind...
Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] Whoever wrote this article is a no-nothing idiot who still thinks that it is the 1970s. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, American is the most socialist of any developed country, as measured by the progressivity and anti-business nature of our tax system. America has the most progressive personal income tax system. Sweden's income tax system isn't progressive at all. America also has the highest corporate taxes. Sweden's are in the middle. Look at the table. America soaks the rich, while the top 10% of income earners in Sweden pay the same percentage in taxes that they take in income: American also has the highest corporate tax rates in the world (Japan recently lowered theirs by 5 points), while Sweden's are rather moderate: I've been to Sweden in the last 5 years. It's not the same country that it was in the 1970s. Yes, the government is still too big, but average and lower class people in Sweden pay a larger percentage of the bill than they do in America. The same goes for Canada and Germany. In Germany, people hit the close to the top tax rate at about $50K in income. On the other hand, in America, the bottom 50% of income earners pay no federal income taxes. Instead, our government tries to soak the rich and business (unless they are politically favored businesses who have 8,000 pages of special interest deductions). The results are very clear. America politicians are the true Marxists in the world today.
Of course, the answer to our economic problems is to get rid of most tax deductions and dramatically lower tax rates. This would vastly simplify the tax system and encourage investments in innovation and productive capacity.
What we had for years and it did not work. Doubling down on failure won't work.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
I have no problem wanting America to be more like Sweden and Germany and the acceptance of the superior social market system.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Pre-WWII. The ultimate example would be Germany. Post WWII.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
History ain't your strength, it would appear.
Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] Since the corporations tell us they are merely tax collectors why do they put up such a fuss?
Really? Since Germany post WWII was propped up by both the US and the USSR to a much lesser extent I really think you need to reread YOUR history.
I've just posted the numbers from an unbiased international organization. Yet, you still sit here an recite your socialist baloney. What this tells me about you is that the driving the force is your life is not accomplishment, self-improvement, discovery, innovation, or any other positive trait of human nature. The driving force in your life, and that of the entire left, is envy. People like you are nothing more than a cancer that slowly eats away at society until you finally overwhelm it and kill it. You need to be dealt with accordingly, with radical surgery, radiation, and chemo-therapy. We need politicians who have the vision and cajones to kick all of you SOBs off of the government dole once and for all. Only then, will things change for the better.
Because we are in an international market competing with companies in countries that have far fewer taxes to pass on in their prices. If you had any business experience at all, you would have never asked such a dumb question.
Anyone citing the US's statutory tax rate is engaging in sophistry.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
LOL. You nasty statistics freaks want to kill off a large portion of your consumer base because they don't share your rigid political ideology. That ought to work well in your business model.
Actually I run my own business. But I believe in keeping it local versus global. I don't believe in one size and type fits all.
You think you think. That is your mistake. Thanks for the laugh.
Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] ROTFLMAO. The U.S. number you posted is for "C" corporations. It doesn't include "S" corporations as well as most LLCs and LLPs (those that file as sole proprietorship's or partnerships). Over the last decade, the share of economy attributed to "S" corporations, LLCs, and LLPs have risen dramatically while the share of the economy attributed to "C" corporations has decreased substantially. Anyone who doesn't understand the changes that have occurred in the U.S. economy is engaging in no-nothingism.
That is your mistake. Thanks for the laugh. Instead of your fluffery type hysterics why don't you just prove me wrong?
"S" Corp income is filed with a Schedule E and gets taxed as ordinary income on a 1040. Last year my effective tax rate was 24%. And LLC, LP, Inc, Corp. etc is simply the legal form that the company has adopted and addresses the relationship that the officers have to each other and to the shareholders. My "S" Corp is an LLC. I am one of the few shareholders but I am not an officer of the LLC. You still lose and my observation about you - the more you "say" the less you reveal - still stands.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Actually war was one of the few who predicted the current economic downturn, when all the Bushies were saying move along there was nothing to see. Certainly you can cite some of your own posts that give credence to your own predictions?
I just looked at mine and my accountant did the same. My rate was also 24%.
And it's not reported in the corporate tax revenue numbers that the no-nothing left likes to site when making false arguments about the "low" amount of taxes companies in America pay.
That's close to the average which I believe is 25%...2009 I paid 28% eff...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Huh?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
I'm thinking he's another foreign poster.
jwpegler and Republican / conservative apologists spin numbers - they get the wrong conclusions from facts. In any case, the funny part is jwpegler is extolling the so called socialistic models he is afraid to adopt. If Sweden's model is so much better than America's why not adopt it - corporate tax rate and all? Copy Germany? You just said they are less socialistic than America. I dare you. I double dog dare you.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
That'd be a first.
Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] There's no need to prove something that is easily observable, and self-evident. You presume that, just because you say something makes it so. This is a typical attitude of leftists.
Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] Some day you'll be able to claim the same...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
This bulletin presents new estimates showing that the United States has one of the highest effective tax rates on corporate capital in the world at 36 percent, which compares to an average of just 19.5 percent for 79 other countries studied. http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb_1008-50.pdf
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
If Cato is claiming that then the plain and simple truth is that Cato is wrong. Corporate taxes are paid on a graduated scale, based upon income, up to the highest rate. "on corporate capital " Capital isn't what gets taxed.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
I fall into a group of about 5%. You fall into the majority- along with whining-old. How many posts do you have left for today? Bye, rat-boy mike. We'll miss you. [NOT] Income tax alone doesn't provide a complete picture, just as you are claiming statutory income tax rates don't provide a complete picture.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Wha...huh? This is the cold hard fact...publishing the TOP STAUTORY rate as being representative of the ACTUAL rate at which coporate revenues are taxed is SOPHISTRY.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Claiming income tax alone is representative of a corporation's total tax liability is also sophistry.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
I claimed that where, Padlock?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Infinity. Why?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Wasn't the crux of the argument that American businesses are relatively overtaxed?
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
From a discussion I'm having on the Huffington Post about this article: America also has one of the most complicated tax systems in the world, over 8,000 pages long, which drives up the cost of determining what taxes one has to pay. Americans spend about $500 billion a year just to figure out what taxes they owe. That's enough to run GM, Ford, and maybe Chrysler put together. It's crazy stupid. Sure, politically favored companies who can afford to make the right campaign contributions and hire the right lobbyists can get away without paying much. Obama's buddies over at GE are a good example. But other companies get screwed. This is the problem. The answer is to get rid of most tax deductions and dramatically lower tax rates. This would vastly simplify the tax system and encourage investments in innovation and productive capacity. Obama's deficit commission proposed to do just that. Unfortunately, Obama didn't have the vision, real-world experience, or cajones to promote it. How did the no-nothing left treat Obama's deficit commission proposal? With demagoguery as usual. Yes, some ultra-partisans like Hanity on the so-called "right" did the same thing. They all make me sick. From the government monopoly schools, to unsustainable entitlement programs, to corporate welfare, to the federal tax system, America's system is very, very sick. Most people understand this, yet few politicians have the courage to do something about it. It's doesn't bode well for our future.
So? Adopt Socialistic France or Germany's model. As shown, they out perform the post Reagan American model. You admit that the Socialistic Europeans economies are better than the current American ones.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
...vis-a-vis rates on income...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." "THE MILITIA IS COMING!!! THE MILITIA IS COMING!!!" I lurk to see if someone other than Myst or Pookie posts anything...
Comments (41 - 67) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThe authors conclude that big government might not actually stand in contradiction to a productive economy: "Countries with typically high levels of government involvement in the economy, such as Sweden, Denmark and Canada, do not appear to have experienced stifled economic growth relative to countries where government involvement is more limited, like the US," the report says.
#2. To: Godwinson, capitalist eric (#0)
(Edited)
Country 1. Tax Share of taxes of richest decile 2. Share of market income of richest decile 3. Ratio of tax to income shares for richest decile (1/2) United States 45.1 33.5 1.35 Australia 36.8 28.6 1.29 Netherlands 35.2 27.5 1.28 Ireland 39.1 30.9 1.26 Canada 35.8 29.3 1.22 Finland 32.3 26.9 1.2 United Kingdom 38.6 32.3 1.2 New Zealand 35.9 30.3 1.19 Italy 42.2 35.8 1.18 Czech Republic 34.3 29.4 1.17 Korea 27.4 23.4 1.17 Luxembourg 30.3 26.4 1.15 Slovak Republic 32 28 1.14 OECD-24 31.6 28.4 1.11 Austria 28.5 26.1 1.1 France 28 25.5 1.1 Germany 31.2 29.2 1.07 Denmark 26.2 25.7 1.02 Japan 28.5 28.1 1.01 Sweden 26.7 26.6 1 Norway 27.4 28.9 0.95 Belgium 25.4 27.1 0.94 Iceland 21.6 24 0.9 Switzerland 20.9 23.5 0.89 Poland 28.3 33.9 0.84 Country Combined Central and Provisional Corporate Tax Rate Japan 39.5 United States 39.2 France 34.4 Belgium 34 Germany 30.2 Australia 30 Mexico 30 Spain 30 Luxembourg 28.8 New Zealand 28 Norway 28 Canada 27.6 Italy 27.5 Portugal 26.5 Sweden 26.3 Finland 26 United Kingdom 26 Austria 25 Denmark 25 Netherlands 25 Korea 24.2 Israel 24 Switzerland 21.2 Estonia 21 Chile 20 Greece 20 Iceland 20 Slovenia 20 Turkey 20 Czech Republic 19 Hungary 19 Poland 19 Slovak Republic 19 Ireland 12.5
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#3. To: All (#2)
(Edited)
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#4. To: jwpegler (#3)
Of course, the answer to our economic problems is to get rid of most tax deductions and dramatically lower tax rates. This would vastly simplify the tax system and encourage investments in innovation and productive capacity.
#5. To: jwpegler (#2)
(Edited)
I've been to Sweden in the last 5 years. It's not the same country that it was in the 1970s. Yes, the government is still too big, but average and lower class people in Sweden pay a larger percentage of the bill than they do in America. The same goes for Canada and Germany. In Germany, people hit the close to the top tax rate at about $50K in income.
#6. To: Capitalist Eric (#1)
The ultimate example would be Germany.
#7. To: Godwinson (#6)
#8. To: jwpegler (#2)
(Edited)
America also has the highest corporate taxes.
#9. To: Capitalist Eric (#7)
History ain't your strength, it would appear.
#10. To: Godwinson (#4)
What we had for years and it did not work.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#11. To: mininggold (#8)
(Edited)
Since the corporations tell us they are merely tax collectors why do they put up such a fuss?
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#12. To: jwpegler (#10)
> 
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#13. To: jwpegler (#10)
(Edited)
We need politicians who have the vision and cajones to kick all of you SOBs off of the government dole once and for all. Only then, will things change for the better.
#14. To: jwpegler (#11)
(Edited)
If you had any business experience at all, you would have never asked such a dumb question.
#15. To: mininggold (#9)
I really think you need to reread YOUR history.
#16. To: war (#12)
(Edited)
Anyone citing the US's statutory tax rate is engaging in sophistry.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#17. To: Capitalist Eric (#15)
You think you think.
#18. To: jwpegler (#16)
(Edited)
The U.S. number you posted is for "C" corporations. It doesn't include "S" corporations as well as most LLCs and LLPs (those that file as sole proprietorship's or partnerships).
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#19. To: jwpegler, war (#16)
Anyone who doesn't understand the changes that have occurred in the U.S. economy is engaging in no-nothingism
#20. To: war (#18)
"S" Corp income is filed with a Schedule E and gets taxed as ordinary income on a 1040. Last year my effective tax rate was 24%.
#21. To: war (#18)
"S" Corp income is filed with a Schedule E and gets taxed as ordinary income on a 1040.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#22. To: mininggold (#20)
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#23. To: jwpegler (#21)
And it's not reported in the corporate tax revenue numbers that the no-nothing left likes to site when making false arguments about the "low" amount of taxes companies in America pay.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#24. To: war (#23)
Huh?
#25. To: war, jwpegler (#12)
#26. To: mininggold (#24)
I'm thinking...
#27. To: mininggold (#17)
why don't you just prove me wrong?
#28. To: Capitalist Eric (#26)
That'd be a first.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#29. To: war (#12)
Anyone citing the US's statutory tax rate is engaging in sophistry.
#30. To: no gnu taxes (#29)
(Edited)
This bulletin presents new estimates showing that the United States has one of the highest effective tax rates on corporate capital in the world at 36 percent, which compares to an average of just 19.5 percent for 79 other countries studied.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#31. To: war (#28)
;^)
#32. To: war (#30)
These tax rates take into account the corporate income tax, sales taxes on capital purchases, and other capital-related taxes.
#33. To: no gnu taxes (#32)
(Edited)
Income tax alone doesn't provide a complete picture, just as you are claiming statutory income tax rates don't provide a complete picture.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#34. To: war (#33)
These tax rates take into account the corporate income tax, sales taxes on capital purchases, and other capital-related taxes.
#35. To: no gnu taxes (#34)
Claiming income tax alone is representative of a corporation's total tax liability is also sophistry.
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#36. To: Capitalist Eric (#31)
How many posts do you have left for today?
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
#37. To: war (#35)
#38. To: Godwinson (#0)
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#39. To: jwpegler (#38)
America also has one of the most complicate d tax systems in the world,
#40. To: no gnu taxes (#37)
--GW Bush
--Sarah Palin's version of "The Midnight Ride of Paul revere"
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