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Title: Dumb Question of the Twenty-first Century: Is It Legal?
Source:
TomDispatch
URL Source: http://www.tomdispatch.com/
Published: May 31, 2011
Author: Tom Engelhardt
Post Date: 2011-05-31 23:24:24 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 9178
Comments: 24
Is the Libyan war legal? Was Bin Laden’s killing legal? Is it legal for the president of the United States to target an American citizen for assassination? Were those “enhanced interrogation techniques” legal? These are all questions raised in recent weeks. Each seems to call out for debate, for answers. Or does it? Now, you couldn’t call me a legal scholar. I’ve never set foot inside a law school, and in 66 years only made it onto a single jury (dismissed before trial when the civil suit was settled out of court). Still, I feel at least as capable as any constitutional law professor of answering such questions. My answer is this: they are irrelevant. Think of them as twentieth-century questions that don't begin to come to grips with twenty-first century American realities. In fact, think of them, and the very idea of a nation based on the rule of law, as a reflection of nostalgia for, or sentimentality about, a long-lost republic. At least in terms of what used to be called “foreign policy,” and more recently “national security,” the United States is now a post-legal society. (And you could certainly include in this mix the too-big-to-jail financial and corporate elite.) It’s easy enough to explain what I mean. If, in a country theoretically organized under the rule of law, wrongdoers are never brought to justice and nobody is held accountable for possibly serious crimes, then you don’t have to be a constitutional law professor to know that its citizens actually exist in a post-legal state. If so, “Is it legal?” is the wrong question to be asking, even if we have yet to discover the right one.
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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)
No. It's not even constitutional.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
At least you are honest about it. You don't just follow the party line. Gotta give you some respect on this one.
What party line? Just because I don't hold to your kook views about Obama does not mean I am a Democrat or belong to any party.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Yes. After 9/11, the Congress gave the POTUS a blank check to initiate military action against nations he identified as being a threat to the national seciurity of the US. The Carter Doctrine, which was enforced by every POTUS since, was that any threat to oil production was a threat to the US. You folks were warned about the open ended use of WOT legislation. You didn't listen and I note with irony that those most eaten uip with the Boofers over Libya were the frothy mouthed minions who called me and others opposed to Boy Blunders continued sabre rattling "unpatriotic".
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." You folks? Don't link me in with the flag waving rube-Americans.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Sorry.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." It's gone way past "saber rattling" when thousands have been killed in Obushma's war on anyone or anything. The neolib/cons are insane. Do US heroin addicts care if their Afghan poppies are grown under a democracy or sharia law, and what business is it of the US gov?
Obama's watch stopped on 24 May 2008, but he's been too busy smoking crack to notice.
What does the WOT have to with it? Clinton was bombing women and children in a Christian Nation in support of the Muslims we are now fighting against long before 911. And there were no US interests at stake.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
I stated what it has to do with it.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Exactly.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
DING DING DING DING Today's CLINTON DID IT!!!!
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." GREAT commentary Boofer. You should hold to it...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I'm pointing out the fact that we didn't need WOT legislation to conduct overseas military operations, and haven't for decades. But if you were really honest, while you want to demonize Bush for everything, you would admit that Clinton's bombing of civilian infrastructure in Yugoslavia was disgustingly criminal, and there was never any justification for it. The so-called genocide was proven a blatant lie.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
The bombing campaign was to PREVENT a genocide, doof.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." BS The bombings were justified by genocides that were stated to already have occurred. Why don't you just admit it, Not only was sink boy a rapist, he was a worse war criminal than Bush could ever be accused of being.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
As usual you're lying. "Our purpose here is to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. Our objective is to make it clear to Mr Milosevic he must choose peace, or we will limit his plans to make war."
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." “Britain stands ready with our NATO allies to take military action. We do so for very clear reasons. We do so primarily to avert what would otherwise be a humanitarian disaster in Kosovo. … “We must act: to save thousands of innocent men, women and children from humanitarian catastrophe, from death, barbarism and ethnic cleansing by a brutal dictatorship; to save the stability of the Balkan region, where we know chaos can engulf all of Europe. We have no alternative but to act and act we will, unless Milosevic even now chooses the path of peace.”
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." UK Defence Secretary, George Robertson, described NATO’s military objectives to the House of Commons in the following terms: “They are clear cut; to avert an impending humanitarian catastrophe by disrupting the violent attacks currently being carried out by the Yugoslav security forces against the Kosovar Albanians, and to limit their ability to conduct such repression in future. We have not set ourselves the task of defeating the Yugoslav army. We are engaged in an effort to reduce Milosevic's repressive capacity, and we are confident that we will achieve that.”
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." That is the lie.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
What actually happened? -- N THE GENOCIDE of ethnic Albanians in Kosovo by the forces of Serb leader Slobodan Milosevic, the worst incident occurred at the Trepca mine. As reported by American and NATO officials, large numbers of bodies were brought in by trucks under the cover of darkness. The bodies were then thrown down the shafts, or were disposed of entirely in the mine's vats of hydrochloric acid. Estimates of the number of dead began at 1,000. That was six months ago, in the middle of the war undertaken to halt what both U.S. President Bill Clinton and British Prime Minister Tony Blair called "a human catastrophe.'' Estimates of the number of ethnic Albanians slaughtered went upward from 10,000. US Defence Secretary William Cohen put the count at 100,000. Three weeks ago, the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia released the findings of Western forensic teams investigating the horror at Trepca. There were not 1,000 bodies down the mine shafts at Trepca, reported the tribunal. There were not 100 bodies there. There was not one body there, nor was there any evidence the vats had ever been used to dispose of human remains. Shortly afterward, the tribunal reported on its work at the most infamous of all the mass graves of ethnic Albanians, at Ljubenic near the town of Pec. Earlier, NATO officials had said 350 victims had been hastily buried there by the retreating Serb forces. There were not 350 bodies at Ljubenic, though. There were five. So far, not one mass grave has been found in Kosovo, despite four months' work by forensic teams, including experts from the FBI and the RCMP. This discovery - more accurately, this non-discovery - first was made public three weeks ago by the Texas-based intelligence think tank, Stratfor. Stratfor estimated the number of ethnic Albanian dead in Kosovo at 500. Last weekend, the story was broadcast for the first time by the TV Ontario program Diplomatic Immunity. (Last Sunday's New York Times was still using the "10,000 deaths'' figure.) The story has begun to appear in European newspapers. Spain's El Pais has quoted the head of the Spanish forensic team, Emilo Pujol, as saying he had resigned because, after being told to expect to have to carry out 2,000 autopsies, he'd only had 97 bodies to examine - none of which "showed any signs of mutilation or torture.'' Because 250 of 400 suspected mass graves in Kosovo remain to be examined, it's possible that evidence of mass killings will yet be found. This is highly unlikely though, because the worst sites were dug up first. No genocide of ethnic Albanians by Serbs, therefore. No "human catastrophe.'' No "modern-day Holocaust.'' All of those claims may have been an honest mistake. Equally, they may have been a grotesque lie concocted to justify a war that NATO originally assumed would be over in a day or two, with Milosevic using the excuse of some minimal damage as a cover for a surrender, but then had to fight (at great expense) for months. There's no question that atrocities were committed in Kosovo, overwhelmingly by the Serb forces, although the ethnic Albanian guerrillas were not innocent. Quite obviously, these forces, acting on Milosevic's explicit orders, carried out mass expulsions of people, terrorizing them and destroying their homes and property. Acts like these are inexcusable. That they occur often in civil wars (far worse are being committed by the Russians in Chechnya), is irrelevant to their horror. But they have nothing to do with genocide. No genocide means no justification for a war inflicted by NATO on a sovereign nation. Only a certainty of imminent genocide could have legally justified a war that was not even discussed by the U.N. Security Council. No genocide means that the tribunal's indictment of Milosevic becomes highly questionable. Even more questionable is the West's continued punishment of the Serbs - the Danube bridges and the power stations remain in ruins - when their offence may well have been stupidity rather than criminality. The absence of genocide may mean something else, something deeply shaming. To halt the supposed genocide, NATO bombed targets in Serbia proper. Because of "collateral'' or accidental damage, such as the bombing of a train, some 500 civilians were killed (Belgrade claims almost 1,000 deaths). NATO very likely killed as many people as were killed in Kosovo. The number of these dead isn't large enough to justify NATO's actions being called a "human catastrophe.'' But, unless proof of genocide can be produced, NATO's actions were clearly a moral catastrophe.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Americans have killed far more people than the Serbs under Milosevic and for dubious reasons. If there was real justice, every American officer over the rank of major and all members of the congress and executive over the last 30 years would be jailed for war crimes.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
What Cohen actually said and from the article that you posted: "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing... they may have been murdered." As usual, you're lying.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." Cohen: The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo Lie The bottom line. No genocide ever occurred and there was never any threat of genocide occurring. Those are the lies.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
100% horseshit. When are we going to find those mass graves in Iraq, Paddy? Are they along side the WMD's? "One thing is for certain: There won't be any more mass graves and torture rooms and rape rooms."—Bush, press availability in Monterrey, Mexico, Jan. 12, 2004 "Nobody could say that Saddam Hussein wasn't a danger. Not only was he a danger to the free world -- and that's what the world said. The world said it consistently -- he was a danger to his own people, as well. Remember we discovered mass graves with hundreds of thousands of men and women and children clutching their little toys, as a result of this person's brutality." How many were actually found, Paddy?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..."Is the Libyan war legal?
#2. To: Godwinson, war (#1)
No. It's not even constitutional.
#3. To: A K A Stone (#2)
#4. To: Godwinson (#1)
(Edited)
Is the Libyan war legal?
--GW Bush
#5. To: war (#4)
You folks were warned about the open ended use of WOT legislation.
#6. To: Godwinson (#5)
--GW Bush
#7. To: war (#4)
Boy Blunders continued sabre rattling
"We (government) need to do a lot less, a lot sooner" ~Ron Paul
#8. To: war (#4)
You folks were warned about the open ended use of WOT legislation.
#9. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
What does the WOT have to with it?
--GW Bush
#10. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
#11. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
Clinton
--GW Bush
#12. To: Badeye (#10)
--GW Bush
#13. To: war (#11)
#14. To: no gnu taxes (#13)
The so-called genocide was proven a blatant lie.
--GW Bush
#15. To: war (#14)
The bombing campaign was to PREVENT a genocide, doof.
#16. To: no gnu taxes (#15)
The bombings were justified by genocides that were stated to already have occurred.
--GW Bush
#17. To: no gnu taxes (#15)
--GW Bush
#18. To: no gnu taxes (#15)
--GW Bush
#19. To: war (#16)
Our purpose here is to prevent a humanitarian catastrophe. Our objective is to make it clear to Mr Milosevic he must choose peace, or we will limit his plans to make war."
#20. To: war (#18)
A number of critics have emerged since the end of the war. They have accused the coalition of leading a war in Kosovo under the false pretense of genocide. U.S. President Clinton and his administration were accused of inflating the number of Kosovo Albanians killed by Serbians. Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen, giving a speech, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide." On CBS' Face the Nation Cohen claimed, "We've now seen about 100,000 military-aged men missing... they may have been murdered." Clinton, citing the same figure, spoke of "at least 100,000 (Kosovo Albanians) missing". Later, talking about Yugoslav elections, Clinton said, "they're going to have to come to grips with what Mr. Miloševi ordered in Kosovo... they're going to have to decide whether they support his leadership or not; whether they think it's OK that all those tens of thousands of people were killed...". Clinton also claimed, in the same press conference, that "NATO stopped deliberate, systematic efforts at ethnic cleansing and genocide." Clinton compared the events of Kosovo to the Holocaust. CNN reported, "Accusing Serbia of 'ethnic cleansing' in Kosovo similar to the genocide of Jews in World War II, an impassioned President Clinton sought...to rally public support for his decision to send U.S. forces into combat against Yugoslavia, a prospect that seemed increasingly likely with the breakdown of a diplomatic peace effort." Clinton's State Department also claimed Yugoslav troops had committed genocide. The New York Times reported, "the Administration said evidence of 'genocide' by Yugoslav forces was growing to include 'abhorrent and criminal action' on a vast scale. The language was the State Department's strongest yet in denouncing Yugoslav President Slobodan Miloševi." The State Department also gave the highest estimate of dead Albanians. The New York Times reported, "On April 19, the State Department said that up to 500,000 Kosovo Albanians were missing and feared dead."
#21. To: no gnu taxes, war (#19)
#22. To: no gnu taxes (#20)
Estimates of the number of ethnic Albanians slaughtered went upward from 10,000. US Defence Secretary William Cohen put the count at 100,000.
--GW Bush
#23. To: war (#22)
#24. To: no gnu taxes (#23)
and there was never any threat of genocide occurring.
--GW Bush
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