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Title: Railways face radical overhaul to give 'better deal for all'
Source:
Guardian
URL Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/m ... railways-face-radical-overhaul
Published: May 20, 2011
Author: Guardian
Post Date: 2011-05-20 10:16:01 by go65
Keywords: None
Views: 56236
Comments: 75
Commuters face the biggest shakeup of the railways since the ignominious Railtrack era after a government-commissioned report called for £1bn in costs to be stripped out of the industry – and for it to give all involved a "better deal". An overhaul of the fares system was the most eye-catching recommendation in a study by Sir Roy McNulty, former chairman of the Civil Aviation Authority. The report into rail industry costs also outlined changes to slash the £5.2bn state subsidy, including phasing out ticket offices in small stations, removing conductors and giving train operators control of maintenance on some routes. McNulty said fares in the UK were 30% higher than in France, Holland, Sweden and Switzerland, with operating costs running 40% higher than those countries. "There is a clear imperative to give both farepayers and taxpayers a better deal," McNulty said. "This industry has a serious cost deficiency issue to address. Everyone concerned must be aware that passengers are paying above the odds."
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#1. To: CZ82, Jwpegler, godwinson (#0)
Britian's rail privatization of rail hasn't gone so well.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Nothing that Maggie Thatcher put into place has 'gone well'. but then it wasn't supposed to. The Top 50 000 got their's up front: The $$$ that was 'stripped out'. And the rest was left to rot in place. See AMTRAK for details.... The problem is that these entities left to die just won't...
Passenger rail is an inflexible, cost prohibitive, and obsolete concept. Very few, if any, passenger rail systems in the world cover their operating costs, let alone make a profit. From an Amtrack study (pdf): When all revenues and expenses for the entire passenger train system are taken into consideration, European Passenger Train Operations operate at a financial loss and consequently require significant Public Subsidies... For example, DB reports profits of about $1.94 per train mile while the railroad is receiving $36.78 in public funding. When public funding is taken into consideration, DB Train Operations actually cost the German government $34.88 per train mile. Similarly, passenger rail operations in the other five European countries cost their governments between $13.77 to $27.78 per train mile...
I agree.... it's another bone thrown to the corps by our government only this time to get their employees to work on time and on the cheap. It's time to quit subsidizing big business. Make 'em take to the tax payer funded highways instead. There's plenty of room and urban parking's a snap.
Oh, so the only two possible solutions are take the government train or drive your own car? You are exemplifying the left quite nicely -- you aren't innovative, you aren't creative, you never have an original thought, you don't have a brain cell in your head. Nice going.
You are exemplifying the left quite nicely -- you aren't innovative, you aren't creative, you never have an original thought, you don't have a brain cell in your head. Nice going. Instead of your nasty innuendo why don't you take the opportunity I gave you to tell us. You guys are soo predictable.
Nice going. What's the hold up? Your 'original thought' should be on the tip of your tongue.
I've posted many times about mass transit on this site for a couple of years. The best short haul (within an urban/suburban area) mass transit system in the world is the Philippine Jeepney (van-sized bus). They are privately owned. They are very convenient because they show up everywhere all of the time (unlike light rail). They move a massive amount of people very efficiently. People who really understand mass transit site the Philippines system. I've been there many times, it works great. Chicago has something like this that goes from the Airports to downtown hotels. In the Philippines they go from everywhere to everywhere and all the time. Of course, something like this cannot operate in the U.S. because local governments want to monopolize mass transit with their buses and light rail services (which are always completely underutilized because they are not convenient). Philippine Jeepneys: Jeez, these conservative jack offs really do want us to become a third world nation.... I can see myself riding in one of these in my Italian business suit. Who will pick up the dry cleaning bill? (If I survive the Road Warrior traffic).
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
More likely they'd face opposition from private cab companies who would threaten to sue small time operators out of business.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
You think airport facilities make money? How much direct profit does the federal highway system generate? In Germany, the public also funds the autobahn system - it is very expensive because cars have no speed limit the road has to be built from high grade materials unlike American roads which is asphalt tops (faster speed limits wear out roads). Where do you conservative morons get the notion that for an entity to exist for the greater good it needs to generate a profit? Why do you want to turn America into Somalia or Haiti? Those are nations that have no infrastructure spending by the govt.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
From the idea that everything else is socialism (bad).
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
The local Chamber of Commerce which stopped our local Food Truck(all were health inspected) Fridays, supposedly because some guys were breaking open a few beers would have a thought or two also.
Of course they do, because they rent space to Burger King, Starbucks, bars, magazine stands, gift shops, etc. No, in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, airports lost money because governments were too stupid to figure out how to make money. Private airports lead the way and now even county airports are doing it. Have you ever been to the Seattle Airport or Heathrow (in London)? They look more like shopping malls than airports.
Yep, that's how it happens in the real world.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
There is no such thing as the "greater good". It's a leftist delusion. Every government action hurts someone (and usually a whole lot of people) because every single thing the government does is based on force at some fundamental level. The market creates win-win situations. Buyers, sellers, partners... either all parties perceive a benefit to themselves or the transaction doesn't take place. And no, I am not a conservative. I am a libertarian and always have been.
I've actually driven on the Autobahn many times. How about you? My guess is that you learned the little you know from a book and have never actually driven on it. The last time I was in Germany I drove from Berlin to Heidelberg. It took 9 hours, including a stop for lunch in Dresden. I was going 200kph (120mph). People were passing me like I was standing still. There are speed limits on the autobahn before and after major on/off ramps in towns and also throughout the limits of large cities.
That's a lofty ideal that isn't supported by real world experience.
The Republican budget goes after children and the poor. Courage would be going after defense and the rich. Bill Maher
Very few, if any, passenger rail systems in the world cover their operating costs, let alone make a profit. As we've said over and over again, you can say the exact same for air travel. Are you ready to pull government subsidies for air travel and let it die? And of course you could pull subsidies for road travel as well. You might want to see what is going on in Virginia with the nation's only privately operated highway - the toll is up to about $6.00 each way and nobody is using it. The company running it drastically underestimated expenses and is appealing to the local government for help.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." he has a point - if countries like China, India, etc. continue to grow their investments in public infrastructure while the U.S. reduces its own, the market will indeed win and those countries will continue to outperform us. The conservative fallacy is to ignore the fact that we're in a globally competitive market. They'd rather see the U.S. in rapid decline then accept the fact that there is a role for public services.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Actually it's tenet that most well functioning families respect.
Look around at the world: you've got countries like China, Canada, Germany, etc. with large investment in public services who spend less on health care, have greater life expectancies, higher standards of living, and greater economic performance. Then you've got countries like Somalia, Yemen, Ivory Coast, Mexico with little public services, little infrastructure investment, and terrible social problems. You keep arguing we should be more like third world countries.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Leftists are like little children because they are infatuated with big shiny new things. The public schools are failing. So, let's build big, huge new school building. The roads are congested. So, let's build a fancy new train that is inconvenient for most people to use, so it stays 90% empty most of the time. You are demonstrating the problem -- form over substance.
Families are based on voluntary relationships. I voluntary get married, have kids, etc. Government is not family. It's force, backed up by people with guns and prison.
Your family does not consist of only YOU. Ask your kids what they think of the fact that you think they volunteered for the job.
I've been to 26 countries. I've been to Canada, U.K., Japan, and Germany more than 20 times each. I've been to Singapore, Ireland, France, Spain, and several other countries more than 10 times each. I've been in many developing nations and third-world hell holes in Asia, Latin America and even Africa. I've been to India and China. I spent 6 straight weeks in Greece. I went to most of these countries on business trips, and NOT as a tourist staying in some secluded resort. So, I have a damn good perspective. Singapore, Hong Kong, and Taiwan rose to prosperity during the 80s and 90s because of the free market. China and India are booming today because they moved to the free market. Chile, Argentina and Brazil moved to prosperity because of the free market. To fact that they sometimes backslide is entirely because of government corruption, not the free market. Everyone in the entire world except degenerate American and European leftists understand this.
Completely 100% irrelevant and absurd statement. The government are not my kid's parents. My wife and I are. We love them. The government doesn't. We care about them. The government only cares about power and control.
Singapore: Hong Kong: Taiwain: Interestingly enough, Taiwain, with it's privately owned train system, isn't doing so well: So what was your point again?
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Why you want to continue to ignore the fact that every country you cite makes huge investments in public infrastructure in areas such as mass transit, internet, and healthcare, is beyond me. Meanwhile our massive investment goes into defense.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Have you ever been to the Seattle Airport or Heathrow (in London)? They look more like shopping malls than airports. Try Istanbul. My wife, daughters and I had lunch there, last month... Burger King. $50. And we weren't getting anything crazy.
List of those unable to think: Bumper sticker on DwarF's car: Of course. Socialism never works, in the long run. Eventually, you run out of other peoples' money to steal.
List of those unable to think: Bumper sticker on DwarF's car: India is not growing its investment in public infrastructure to any great degree. Their infrastructure is a disaster. Right in the middle of Bangalore (a city of 4 million people, which is one of their primary technology hubs), the main road turns to gravel for about a mile. The government power companies are so inconsistent, that all outsourcing centers have huge generators and a week's worth of fuel on hand to keep the power on when the government power stations break down. Yet, India is a growing economic powerhouse. How can this be without massive government infrastructure investment??? The left says that this is impossible, yet it is happening. Yes, the Chinese government is building shiny new things, and wasting a lot of money doing so. The right solution is somewhere in between -- functional infrastructure that is cost effective. That means that the private sector has to run the power plants, tele-communications, etc. because governments are simply incapable of doing so.
They do not. Read my last post.
Singapore is the second most densely populated place on earth. Almost everyone lives in a high rise apartment / condo. Hong Kong is the most densely populated place on earth. They have double the population density as Singapore. Almost everyone lives in high rise apartments / condos. Same thing with Tokyo -- a densely populated city with very few single family homes. Shiny new light rails won't work in sprawling suburban America because they can't possibly be convenient given our environment. Philippine Jeepneys can work. It's just a fact.
I don't know where you get your info: that's more than the Obama stimulus spent on infrastructure in the U.S. I agree with respect to power, telecom, but not for roads-rails or any other monopoly service. You keep arguing against public sector investments in rail by citing countries who have public rail systems? Do you not realize that?
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Sure. The stuff of legends! List of those unable to think: Bumper sticker on DwarF's car: I missed something, when did we ever start arguing about light rail in suburban America? I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here.
"Thats because your basically and idiot." Hong Kong is the most densely populated place on earth. They have double the population density as Singapore. Almost everyone lives in high rise apartments / condos. Same thing with Tokyo -- a densely populated city with very few single family homes. Ok, so why do you argue then "Passenger rail is an inflexible, cost prohibitive, and obsolete concept."
"Thats because your basically and idiot." I have been there. I've seen it myself. That's where I get my information. First hand experience. Sure, they might be spending more money. But it's being wasted on government corruption, not the roads. That's how the India government works. Do you know what the toilets in India's major airports look like? They are just holes in the ground (like some Southern European countries and much of Asia). But there isn't any toilet paper. There is just a bucket of water. Oh my god... Fortunately, India has the most extravagant hotels for western business people I've ever seen. But if you have to take a dump, you better do it at the hotel or office because the government facilities are gruesome. Do you want me to really blow your mind? I just signed a new contract last week. Everyday this week I've been on GoToMeeting conferences between 6am and 8am with a company in Pakistan. At some point if I have to go there, I'll give you a report on their rotten infrastructure.
All airports are subsidized.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Comments (41 - 75) not displayed.
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Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#2. To: go65 (#1)
#3. To: go65, capitalist eric, CZ82, godwinson (#1)
Britian's rail privatization of rail hasn't gone so well.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#4. To: jwpegler (#3)
When all revenues and expenses for the entire passenger train system are taken into consideration, European Passenger Train Operations operate at a financial loss and consequently require significant Public Subsidies...
#5. To: mininggold (#4)
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#6. To: jwpegler (#5)
Oh, so the only two possible solutions are take the government train or drive your own car?
#7. To: jwpegler (#6)
(Edited)
You are exemplifying the left quite nicely -- you aren't innovative, you aren't creative, you never have an original thought, you don't have a brain cell in your head.
#8. To: mininggold (#6)
(Edited)
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#9. To: jwpegler, mininggold, go65 (#8)
The best short haul (within an urban/suburban area) mass transit system in the world is the Philippine Jeepney (van-sized bus).
#10. To: jwpegler (#8)
Of course, something like this cannot operate in the U.S. because local governments want to monopolize mass transit with their buses and light rail services (which are always completely underutilized because they are not convenient).
#11. To: jwpegler, go65, capitalist eric, CZ82 (#3)
Very few, if any, passenger rail systems in the world cover their operating costs, let alone make a profit.
#12. To: Godwinson (#11)
Where do you conservative morons get the notion that for an entity to exist for the greater good it needs to generate a profit?
#13. To: lucysmom (#10)
(Edited)
More likely they'd face opposition from private cab companies who would threaten to sue small time operators out of business.
#14. To: Godwinson (#11)
(Edited)
You think airport facilities make money?
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#15. To: mininggold (#13)
#16. To: Godwinson (#11)
the greater good
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#17. To: Godwinson (#11)
(Edited)
In Germany, the public also funds the autobahn system... cars have no speed limit
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#18. To: jwpegler (#16)
The market creates win-win situations. Buyers, sellers, partners... either all parties perceive a benefit to themselves or the transaction doesn't take place.
#19. To: jwpegler (#3)
(Edited)
Passenger rail is an inflexible, cost prohibitive, and obsolete concept.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#20. To: lucysmom, jwpegler (#18)
That's a lofty ideal that isn't supported by real world experience.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#21. To: jwpegler (#16)
There is no such thing as the "greater good". It's a leftist delusion.
#22. To: jwpegler (#16)
Every government action hurts someone (and usually a whole lot of people) because every single thing the government does is based on force at some fundamental level.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#23. To: Godwinson, capitalist eric (#9)
(Edited)
Jeez, these conservative jack offs really do want us to become a third world nation
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#24. To: mininggold (#21)
families
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#25. To: jwpegler (#24)
Families are based on voluntary relationships. I voluntary get married, have kids, etc
#26. To: go65 (#22)
(Edited)
Look around at the world
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#27. To: mininggold (#25)
Ask your kids what they think of the fact that you think they volunteered for the job
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#28. To: jwpegler (#26)
Singapore, Hong Kong, and Taiwan rose to prosperity during the 80s and 90s because of the free market.
The Mass Rapid Transit or MRT is a rapid transit system that forms the backbone of the railway system in Singapore, spanning the entire city-state. The initial section of the MRT, between Yio Chu Kang Station and Toa Payoh Station, opened in 1987 establishing itself as the second-oldest metro system in Southeast Asia, after Manila's LRT System. The network has since grown rapidly as a result of Singapore's aim of developing a comprehensive rail network as the main backbone of the public transport system in Singapore with an average daily ridership of 1.952 million in 2009, just over 63% of the bus network's 3.085 million in the same period.[2]
Mass Transit Railway (MTR) is the rapid transit railway system in Hong Kong. Originally opened in 1979, the system now includes 211.6 km of rail with 152 stations, including 86 railway stations and 69 light rail stops. The MTR system is currently operated by MTR Corporation Limited (MTRCL).
Under the government's rail-led transport policy,[3] the MTR system is a common mode of public transport in Hong Kong, offering efficiency and affordability, with over four million trips made in an average weekday. As of first-half 2009, the MTR has a 42% market share of the franchised public transport market, making it the most popular transport option in Hong Kong.[4] The integration of the Octopus smart card fare-payment technology into the MTR system in September 1997 has further enhanced the ease of commuting on the MTR.
The Kaohsiung Mass Rapid Transit System (KMRT; Chinese: Œ40;96;ä23;126;þ63;q39;?95;A13;) is a rapid transit system covering metropolitan Kaohsiung, Taiwan. Construction of the KMRT started in October 2001.[2] The Red Line and the Orange Line opened on March 9 and September 14, 2008, respectively.[3][4][5] KMRT is operated by the Kaohsiung Rapid Transit Corporation (KRTC; Chinese: Œ40;96;þ63;q39;Ð44;Ö96;) under the BOT contract the company signed with the Kaohsiung City Government.
Ridership has been far below expectations, with an average of 100,000 passengers per day versus an expected 360,000, and accumulated losses are expected to reach NT$6 billion by the end of 2009.[13] Currently, as of November 2010, the average daily ridership stands at about 123,385, with ridership figures significantly greater on weekends than on weekdays.[1] During New Year's Eve on December 31, 2010, the system transported over 292,000 passengers.[14] KRTC stated that ridership would need to exceed 380,000 passengers per day in order to break even.[15]
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#29. To: jwpegler (#26)
Everyone in the entire world except degenerate American and European leftists understand this.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#30. To: jwpegler (#14)
Of course they do, because they rent space to Burger King, Starbucks, bars, magazine stands, gift shops, etc...
mcgowanjm, ferret mike, skippy, fartboy/yukko, white sands, bucky, lucys idiot mom, e_type_jackoff, go56, badlie, wreck, calCON, mininggold, war, Banjo Boris, Biff, Godwinson and meguro. If you're on the above list, you're too fucking stupid to hold a real conversation.
#31. To: jwpegler (#3)
When all revenues and expenses for the entire passenger train system are taken into consideration, European Passenger Train Operations operate at a financial loss and consequently require significant Public Subsidies...
mcgowanjm, ferret mike, skippy, fartboy/yukko, white sands, bucky, lucys idiot mom, e_type_jackoff, go56, badlie, wreck, calCON, mininggold, war, Banjo Boris, Biff, Godwinson and meguro. If you're on the above list, you're too fucking stupid to hold a real conversation.
#32. To: go65, capitalist eric, CZ82, godwinson (#20)
(Edited)
if countries like China, India, etc. continue to grow their investments in public infrastructure
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#33. To: go65 (#29)
every country you cite makes huge investments in public infrastructure
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#34. To: go65 (#28)
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#35. To: jwpegler (#33)
India is not growing its investment in public infrastructure to any great degree. Their infrastructure is a disaster.
India plans US$ 308 billion infrastructure investment
http://www.khl.com/magazines/international-construction/detail/item61858/
The right solution is somewhere in between -- functional infrastructure that is cost effective. That means that the private sector has to run the power plants, tele-communications, etc. because governments are simply incapable of doing so.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#36. To: jwpegler (#32)
India is not growing its investment in public infrastructure to any great degree. Their infrastructure is a disaster.
mcgowanjm, ferret mike, skippy, fartboy/yukko, white sands, bucky, lucys idiot mom, e_type_jackoff, go56, badlie, wreck, calCON, mininggold, war, Banjo Boris, Biff, Godwinson and meguro. If you're on the above list, you're too fucking stupid to hold a real conversation.
#37. To: jwpegler (#34)
Shiny new light rails won't work in sprawling suburban America because they can't possibly be convenient given our environment. Philippine Jeepneys can work. It's just a fact.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#38. To: jwpegler (#34)
Singapore is the second most densely populated place on earth. Almost everyone lives in a high rise apartment / condo.
Badeye posted on 2011-04-29 10:30:22 ET
#39. To: go65 (#35)
(Edited)
I don't know where you get your info
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#40. To: jwpegler (#14)
.
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