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Title: Tora Bora and the Myth of a Short War on Terror (The Anti-Bush Bullshit About Tora Bora)
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URL Source: http://hereticallibrarian.blogspot. ... -and-myth-of-short-war-on.html
Published: May 10, 2011
Author: hereticallibrarian
Post Date: 2011-05-10 16:00:15 by no gnu taxes
Keywords: None
Views: 18040
Comments: 35
Saddam Hussein didn't attack us. Osama bin Laden attacked us. Al Qaida attacked us. And when we had Osama bin Laden cornered in the mountains of Tora Bora, 1,000 of his cohorts with him in those mountains. With the American military forces nearby and in the field, we didn't use the best trained troops in the world to go kill the world's number one criminal and terrorist. They outsourced the job to Afghan warlords, who only a week earlier had been on the other side fighting against us, neither of whom trusted each other. That's the enemy that attacked us. That's the enemy that was allowed to walk out of those mountains. That's the enemy that is now in 60 countries, with stronger recruits. Senator John Kerry, "First Bush-Kerry Presidential Debate", September 30, 2004 Is there merit to the criticism made by Kerry, Bergen and others? Did the Bush Administration blunder by not committing regular American ground forces at Tora Bora? Even if we had caught Osama, would it have had the decisive impact implied by Kerry? A close reading of the available source material reveals that the issue of deploying American infantry to Tora Bora isn't nearly as simple as Senator Kerry makes it out to be. 1. The idea that we could have used American troops instead of Afghans flies in the face of the available facts. Contrary to Senator Kerry's assertion, the only "American military forces nearby and in the field" was a 700 man battalion of the 10th Mountain Division, available in Uzbekistan as a rapid reaction force. The al-Qaeda force at Tora Bora numbered 1,600-2,000 by Smucker's estimate, plus however many Afghan tribesmen would have joined them in fighting the infidel Americans. (Philip Smucker, Al Qaeda's Great Escape, p.72) The terrain they were defending is described by retired Lt. General Michael DeLong, former CentCom deputy commander, as "some of the roughest terrain in the world, at an elevation of around thirteen thousand feet, covered in snow and ice." (DeLong, Inside CentCom, p.55) To expect 700 American troops, as superbly trained and capable as they are, to launch a successful attack against a determined enemy force several times their number, in such impossible terrain, defies the imagination. Even with the overwhelming airpower at our disposal, the battalion from the 10th Mountain was simply not sufficient for the job. Therefore, a major part of the battle would have had to be "outsourced" to the Afghans regardless, which made winning the trust and cooperation of the local warlords a priority. (I should point out that Smucker's account is bitterly critical of the Bush Administration and the Pentagon over the handling of Tora Bora in particular, and the Afghan campaign in general. Much of his evidence, however, directly contradicts his conclusions.) 2. Hence the decision to rely on the special forces approach. This decision was made not by the Pentagon, but rather by General Tommy Franks and CentCom, on the recommendation of the Special Forces commander in the field. (Smucker, p.60) As General DeLong explains: Sen. Kerry didn’t know what happened. He’s no more better informed than the armchair generals who went after us (on TV.) And what was going on at the time, where bin Laden was in the Tora Bora caves, there was a tribal area that was full of civilians. You couldn’t go up there with soldiers of any force – especially us –because we would have been fighting them to get to bin Laden. Whether we would have gotten to him remains to be seen. This was a tribe on the border, and the only people who were accepted up there was the Pakistani army. You know how tough guarding a border is – with Texas and New Mexico and Arizona for example. We didn’t kill any civilians unnecessarily up there. We know for a fact from our multiple intelligence sources that we wounded bin Laden. But yes, he did get away. If we had killed a number of civilians, our chances of getting elections in Afghanistan would have never happened. It was a diplomatic, not a political call. It was a call to get this country back together again. We knew the death or capture of bin Laden was important. But getting rid of al Qaeda and getting the country feeling good, feeling nationalistic, was important. Source: The Command Post, "Interview With Gen. Michael DeLong", September 24, 2004 In other words, not only would using American ground forces not necessarily have worked, it might have backfired badly. Working with the Afghans, however disreputable they were, was not a choice; it was a necessity. 3. It is often argued that we could have proceeded with the special forces/Afghan approach, but simply used the battalion from the 10th Mountain as a blocking force to prevent the escape of bin Laden and the rest of the jihadists. According to Bergen in his Atlantic Monthly piece, there were three main escape routes from Tora Bora: The young and the energetic took the difficult, snow-covered passes south toward Parachinar. Others took the road to the southeastern Afghan city of Gardez. Older fighters headed east into Pakistan. In addition, DeLong notes that the caves at Tora Bora "have hundreds, if not thousands, of possible concealed exits, and we had no way of finding and closing all of them". (DeLong, p.56) Bin Laden and his followers knew the area well and had spread plenty of largesse around the local villages. Even had the 10th Mountain been used to block the three main exit routes, it seems highly unlikely that its 700 men could have prevented the al-Qaeda exodus. 4. Had the battalion from the 10th Mountain been deployed, it would have been difficult if not impossible to resupply or reinforce it. General DeLong points out that the high elevation of Tora Bora made it hard enough to resupply the several dozen Special Forces troops already there. (DeLong, p.55) Imagine how much more difficult it would have been to resupply 700 regular infantry scattered across likely al-Qaeda escape routes. Had one of the battalion's units gotten into trouble against a numerically superior jihadist force, as might well have happened, bringing in supplies and reinforcements could have proved impossible. 5. Even though many of the jihadists escaped Tora Bora, the battle still inflicted a grievous human toll on al-Qaeda. Survivors quoted by Smucker describe seeing trees filled with limbs as a result of the ferocious aerial bombardment. (Smucker, p.75, 118) As pointed out by General DeLong, bin Laden himself was wounded there. 6. Even if we had deployed the available American troops to block the main escape routes from Tora Bora, it wouldn't have mattered as far as catching bin Laden. He had already fled Tora Bora by early December, before the ground offensive got underway. To quote Peter Bergen: Mashal told me, based on information he gleaned from radio intercepts, that "the Sheikh," as bin Laden is called by his supporters, departed Tora Bora in the first week of the American bombing campaign in that region, at the beginning of December 2001. According to Mashal, this information has been confirmed by Abu Jaffar, a Saudi financier who traveled to Afghanistan shortly before 9/11 with $3 million in charitable donations for al-Qaeda. Abu Jaffar, a fat middle-aged man with an amputated leg who described himself as an old friend of bin Laden's, told Mashal that once bin Laden had reached Jalalabad, he arranged for safe passage out of Afghanistan with the help of local tribal leaders. The sources are unanimous that Osama bin Laden had prepared his escape route from Tora Bora weeks in advance, and had no desire to stick around and enjoy the fruits of martyrdom. He knew the area and had good relations with the local tribes. By the time the battalion from the 10th Mountain could realistically have been deployed, bin Laden was already in Pakistan. In short, Senator Kerry's statement on Tora Bora drastically oversimplifies a complicated operational situation, and represents the worst sort of second guessing. For the sake of argument, though, let's assume that Osama bin Laden and every single jihadist present at Tora Bora had been killed or captured. Would that mean, as Kerry's debate comments so clearly imply, that the War on Terror would essentially have been won? Absolutely not. According to Senator Kerry, the jihadists are "now in 60 countries", because they were allowed to "walk out of" Tora Bora. This is nonsense. The enemy was already in those 60 countries well before 9/11. Al-Qaeda is merely a small though important part of a worldwide Islamist terror movement committed to our defeat. As the 9/11 Commission report pointed out, up to 20,000 jihadists trained in bin Laden's Afghan camps between 1996 and 9/11. The number of those trainees who actually swore bayat (allegiance) to bin Laden and joined al-Qaeda was "no more than a few hundred". (Chapter 2, p.67) The infamous Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, our main terrorist adversary in Iraq, has never sworn allegiance to bin Laden. The jihadist movement is a loosely-knit network spanning the Islamic world and, as noted historian Bernard Lewis has pointed out, its origins go back for decades if not centuries. As to whether killing bin Laden is enough to defeat this movement, the following passage from the 9/11 report is particularly telling: Early in 2001, DCI Tenet and Deputy Director for Operations James Pavitt gave an intelligence briefing to President-elect Bush, Vice President–elect Cheney, and Rice; it included the topic of al Qaeda. Pavitt recalled conveying that Bin Ladin was one of the gravest threats to the country. Bush asked whether killing Bin Ladin would end the problem. Pavitt said he and the DCI had answered that killing Bin Ladin would have an impact, but would not stop the threat. The CIA later provided more formal assessments to the White House reiterating that conclusion. It added that in the long term, the only way to deal with the threat was to end al Qaeda’s ability to use Afghanistan as a sanctuary for its operations.
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#1. To: no gnu taxes (#0)
Not according to Gary Berntsen, the key CIA field commander on the ground near Tora Bora at the time. He in vain requested 800 American army rangers to prevent bin Laden's escape. The request was denied by Franks, who argued U.S. troops were not necessary because an Afghan militia had been hired to fight in their place. His priority was removing the Taliban from power, even though al- Qaeda financed, controlled and sponsored the Taliban, and not the other way around. (Most Americans don't know this, but Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan did not include any effort by U.S. forces to capture the al-Qaeda leadership, seal the border with Pakistan or cut off al-Qaeda escape routes. The U.S. attack on al-Qaeda consisted primarily of bombing deserted training camps, something former President Clinton had already tried before 9/11. The main focus of OEF was Taliban regime change, followed by nation building, something candidate George Bush vowed he'd never do.) In his book, Jawbreaker, Berntsen refutes claims by Franks and the White House that bin Laden was able to escape from Tora Bora because they didn't know he was holed up there. "He was there," he says, "and could have been caught." He says he escaped with the help of our paid Afghan proxy fighters, as well as Pakistani agents. "They were happy to take our money and let al-Qaeda slip away," said Bernsten, who made it clear in his reports back to Washington that the locals weren't interested in going after bin Laden in Tora Bora or blocking escape exits into Pakistan. The U.S. National Intelligence director recently testified bin Laden is now operating from a "secure hideout" inside Pakistan, our purported ally. As Bush redeployed Special Forces, intelligence assets, translators, surveillance satellites, drones and other resources to Iraq, bin Laden set up several new terror-training camps in Pakistan and has exported terrorists – in addition to the London bombers – from there to hit targets in the West. Bernsten's account is corroborated by former CIA official Hank Crumpton, who personally briefed Bush and Cheney, as well as Franks, about the need to go after bin Laden in Tora Bora. Crumpton, who headed up the CIA's Afghan campaign, was in constant contact with Franks. Just weeks before bin Laden escaped, he strongly urged the general to move marines to the cave complex in Tora Bora, complaining "the back door was open." But Franks balked. So Crumpton turned to the commander-in-chief and tried a more direct appeal. "We're going to lose our prey if we're not careful," he told Bush. Cheney also was in the meeting, according to Ron Suskind, author of the One Percent Doctrine. But they did nothing. In spite of the CIA's repeated advice to move against bin Laden in Tora Bora, the commander-in-chief and his top security advisers did not act. They ignored key intelligence. Then there's Gary C. Schroen, the CIA field officer in charge of the initial CIA incursion into Afghanistan after 9/11. The author of First In: An Insider's Account of How the CIA Spearheaded the War on Terror in Afghanistan also refutes the Pentagon and the White House. Witness this 2005 exchange on NBC's Meet the Press: TIM RUSSERT: In October 2004, General Tommy Franks offered this observation: "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora in December 2001. Mr. bin Laden was never within our grasp." You just disagree with that? SCHROEN: I absolutely do, yes. RUSSERT: And President Bush and Vice President Cheney all quoted General Franks saying "We don't know if bin Laden was at Tora Bora." You have no doubt? SCHROEN: I have no doubt that he was there. Franks, an old schoolmate of Laura Bush from Midland, Texas, is a diehard Bushie. He campaigned for Bush in 2004, and was rewarded with the Medal of Freedom for his loyalty. And he's sticking to his story.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
i remember geraldo having a screaming fit on fox that they were letting osama escape from tora bora into pakistan during the "cease fire" geraldo knew it but our military leaders didn't?
Worth repeating: But they did nothing. In spite of the CIA's repeated advice to move against bin Laden in Tora Bora, the commander-in-chief and his top security advisers did not act. They ignored key intelligence.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
There had to have been a deal made somewhere for some thing...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
This article debunks all that bullshit. Thus you can't respond to it.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
How can it with non-facts?
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Hence the decision to rely on the special forces approach. This decision was made not by the Pentagon, but rather by General Tommy Franks and CentCom, on the recommendation of the Special Forces commander in the field. (Smucker, p.60) As General DeLong explains: Sen. Kerry didn’t know what happened. He’s no more better informed than the armchair generals who went after us (on TV.) And what was going on at the time, where bin Laden was in the Tora Bora caves, there was a tribal area that was full of civilians. You couldn’t go up there with soldiers of any force – especially us –because we would have been fighting them to get to bin Laden. Whether we would have gotten to him remains to be seen. This was a tribe on the border, and the only people who were accepted up there was the Pakistani army. You know how tough guarding a border is – with Texas and New Mexico and Arizona for example. We didn’t kill any civilians unnecessarily up there. We know for a fact from our multiple intelligence sources that we wounded bin Laden. But yes, he did get away. If we had killed a number of civilians, our chances of getting elections in Afghanistan would have never happened. It was a diplomatic, not a political call. It was a call to get this country back together again. We knew the death or capture of bin Laden was important. But getting rid of al Qaeda and getting the country feeling good, feeling nationalistic, was important.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Point out one non-fact.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
Gary Bernsten isn't an "armchair general" nor is Gary Schroen. To repeat: Worth repeating: But they did nothing. In spite of the CIA's repeated advice to move against bin Laden in Tora Bora, the commander-in-chief and his top security advisers did not act. They ignored key intelligence.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
Would that be the picture that bin Laden, himself, released with his arm bandaged? You can't even bullshit about the bullshit.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
It was a diplomatic, not a political call. It was a call to get this country back together again. We knew the death or capture of bin Laden was important. But getting rid of al Qaeda and getting the country feeling good, feeling nationalistic, was important. Source: The Command Post, "Interview With Gen. Michael DeLong", September 24, 2004 In other words, not only would using American ground forces not necessarily have worked, it might have backfired badly. Working with the Afghans, however disreputable they were, was not a choice; it was a necessity.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
How long was he boots on the ground in Afghanistan?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
We were at WAR, Padlock. Fuck diplomacy. Kill the enemy.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
He was in a position to understand the full range of facts and problems. Bernsten was a glorified spy with a very myopic view of what was at stake.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
The answer is he never was. He sat on his ass in Florida. And your characterization of Bernsten is laughable and worse. It's an outright lie. And here we are, 9 years later and bin Laden is dead. That's hardly myopic.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
Franks and Delong understood the full nature of the problem extended far beyond bin Laden. Bernsten just whined like a little bitch because he wasn't given what he thought was his chance for his moment of glory. As is stated above, it's not likely he would have gotten him anyway, and was likely to do a lot more harm than good.
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
I remember that, Geraldo was then tossed out of country for revealing troop locations on air. Anybody that listens to that idiot..well, is an idiot.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
Liberals are impervious to facts.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
Anybody that listens to that idiot..well, is an idiot. he's an idiot but he was right on the tora bora scam. also, he was ousted from iraq, years later, not afganistan
Geraldo was full of it.
Asshole...Berensten and Schroen were in those mountains specifically TRACKING bin Laden. The USAF was bombing the shit out of the area... Now you're just being a dick...
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
also, he was ousted from iraq, years later, not afganistan Friend that were there at Tora Bora say otherwise. Moot now. Pretty sure he was with the 101st Airborne and in fact tossed out of Afghanistan, and yep, that also happened at some point in Iraq.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
six of one,half dozen of another, he's still a dick
Geraldo was expelled from his embed position with the 101st in Iraq - circa April 1, 1993.
Yep, and something similiar happened in Afghanistan.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
No denying that lol
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
Show me the info please.
I call bullshit. As if you have a friend.
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
As I recall it, Geraldo was doing a live report via Van Sustren when he inadvertently stated which province the 101st was about to launch a mission.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
This is the incident in Afghanistan that Wiki highlighted. He was expelled from Iraq, when he was an embed with the 101st, not Afghanistan.
Just admit you were mistaken. It's not that difficult and thank me for correcting you.
Let's all hang by our left nut waiting for that to happen, shall we...?
America...My Kind Of Place... "I truly am not that concerned about [bin Laden]..." I was not aware of just how bad the flooding was; thanks for posting.
In 2001, during the War in Afghanistan, Rivera was derided for a report in which he claimed to be at the scene of a friendly fire incident; it was later revealed he was actually 300 miles away. Rivera blamed a minor misunderstanding for the discrepancy.[24] This is the incident in Afghanistan that Wiki highlighted. He was expelled from Iraq, when he was an embed with the 101st, not Afghanistan. Hmmm. Maybe thats what I'm thinking of. Appreciate it.
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
(laughing) Shit Fred...I don't hang here 24/7/5 ya know....lol
Proxy IP's are amusing.....lmao
--GW Bush
#2. To: war (#1)
#3. To: no gnu taxes (#0)
--GW Bush
#4. To: calcon (#2)
--GW Bush
#5. To: war (#3)
#6. To: no gnu taxes (#5)
Worth repeating: But they did nothing. In spite of the CIA's repeated advice to move against bin Laden in Tora Bora, the commander-in-chief and his top security advisers did not act. They ignored key intelligence.
--GW Bush
#7. To: no gnu taxes, war (#5)
This article debunks all that bullshit.
#8. To: war (#6)
#9. To: Godwinson (#7)
#10. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
--GW Bush
#11. To: no gnu taxes (#8)
We know for a fact from our multiple intelligence sources that we wounded bin Laden
--GW Bush
#12. To: war (#10)
#13. To: no gnu taxes (#12)
Gen. Michael DeLong
--GW Bush
#14. To: no gnu taxes (#12)
It was a diplomatic, not a political call.
--GW Bush
#15. To: war (#13)
Gen. Michael DeLong
#16. To: no gnu taxes (#15)
(Edited)
He was in a position to understand the full range of facts and problems.
--GW Bush
#17. To: war (#16)
#18. To: calcon (#2)
#19. To: no gnu taxes (#5)
#20. To: Badeye (#18)
I remember that, Geraldo was then tossed out of country for revealing troop locations on air.
#21. To: calcon (#2)
geraldo knew it but our military leaders didn't?
#22. To: no gnu taxes (#17)
Franks and Delong understood the full nature of the problem extended far beyond bin Laden.
--GW Bush
#23. To: calcon (#20)
he's an idiot but he was right on the tora bora scam.
#24. To: Badeye (#23)
#25. To: Badeye (#23)
#26. To: Fred Mertz (#25)
#27. To: calcon (#24)
#28. To: Badeye (#26)
Yep, and something similiar [sic] happened in Afghanistan.
#29. To: Badeye (#23)
Friend that were [sic] there at Tora Bora say otherwise.
--GW Bush
#30. To: Fred Mertz (#28)
#31. To: Badeye (#30)
In 2001, during the War in Afghanistan, Rivera was derided for a report in which he claimed to be at the scene of a friendly fire incident; it was later revealed he was actually 300 miles away. Rivera blamed a minor misunderstanding for the discrepancy.[24]
#32. To: Badeye (#30)
#33. To: Fred Mertz (#32)
--GW Bush
#34. To: Fred Mertz (#31)
#35. To: Fred Mertz (#32)
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