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Corrupt Government
See other Corrupt Government Articles

Title: Nation of Takers, Not Makers~more work for govt. than manufacturing, farming, fishing, forestry, mining & utilities combined
Source: WSJ
URL Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100 ... 4050204576219073867182108.html
Published: Apr 1, 2011
Author: STEPHEN MOORE
Post Date: 2011-04-01 09:06:01 by Happy Quanzaa
Keywords: Obama-doma-ding-dong
Views: 193141
Comments: 226

We've Become a Nation of Takers, Not Makers

More Americans work for the government than in manufacturing, farming, fishing, forestry, mining and utilities combined.

If you want to understand better why so many states—from New York to Wisconsin to California—are teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, consider this depressing statistic: Today in America there are nearly twice as many people working for the government (22.5 million) than in all of manufacturing (11.5 million). This is an almost exact reversal of the situation in 1960, when there were 15 million workers in manufacturing and 8.7 million collecting a paycheck from the government.

It gets worse. More Americans work for the government than work in construction, farming, fishing, forestry, manufacturing, mining and utilities combined. We have moved decisively from a nation of makers to a nation of takers. Nearly half of the $2.2 trillion cost of state and local governments is the $1 trillion-a-year tab for pay and benefits of state and local employees. Is it any wonder that so many states and cities cannot pay their bills?

Every state in America today except for two—Indiana and Wisconsin—has more government workers on the payroll than people manufacturing industrial goods. Consider California, which has the highest budget deficit in the history of the states. The not-so Golden State now has an incredible 2.4 million government employees—twice as many as people at work in manufacturing. New Jersey has just under two-and-a-half as many government employees as manufacturers. Florida's ratio is more than 3 to 1. So is New York's.

Even Michigan, at one time the auto capital of the world, and Pennsylvania, once the steel capital, have more government bureaucrats than people making things. The leaders in government hiring are Wyoming and New Mexico, which have hired more than six government workers for every manufacturing worker.

Now it is certainly true that many states have not typically been home to traditional manufacturing operations. Iowa and Nebraska are farm states, for example. But in those states, there are at least five times more government workers than farmers. West Virginia is the mining capital of the world, yet it has at least three times more government workers than miners. New York is the financial capital of the world—at least for now. That sector employs roughly 670,000 New Yorkers. That's less than half of the state's 1.48 million government employees.

Don't expect a reversal of this trend anytime soon. Surveys of college graduates are finding that more and more of our top minds want to work for the government. Why? Because in recent years only government agencies have been hiring, and because the offer of near lifetime security is highly valued in these times of economic turbulence. When 23-year-olds aren't willing to take career risks, we have a real problem on our hands. Sadly, we could end up with a generation of Americans who want to work at the Department of Motor Vehicles.

The employment trends described here are explained in part by hugely beneficial productivity improvements in such traditional industries as farming, manufacturing, financial services and telecommunications. These produce far more output per worker than in the past. The typical farmer, for example, is today at least three times more productive than in 1950.

Where are the productivity gains in government? Consider a core function of state and local governments: schools. Over the period 1970-2005, school spending per pupil, adjusted for inflation, doubled, while standardized achievement test scores were flat. Over roughly that same time period, public-school employment doubled per student, according to a study by researchers at the University of Washington. That is what economists call negative productivity.

But education is an industry where we measure performance backwards: We gauge school performance not by outputs, but by inputs. If quality falls, we say we didn't pay teachers enough or we need smaller class sizes or newer schools. If education had undergone the same productivity revolution that manufacturing has, we would have half as many educators, smaller school budgets, and higher graduation rates and test scores.

The same is true of almost all other government services. Mass transit spends more and more every year and yet a much smaller share of Americans use trains and buses today than in past decades. One way that private companies spur productivity is by firing underperforming employees and rewarding excellence. In government employment, tenure for teachers and near lifetime employment for other civil servants shields workers from this basic system of reward and punishment. It is a system that breeds mediocrity, which is what we've gotten.

Most reasonable steps to restrain public-sector employment costs are smothered by the unions. Study after study has shown that states and cities could shave 20% to 40% off the cost of many services—fire fighting, public transportation, garbage collection, administrative functions, even prison operations—through competitive contracting to private providers. But unions have blocked many of those efforts. Public employees maintain that they are underpaid relative to equally qualified private-sector workers, yet they are deathly afraid of competitive bidding for government services.

President Obama says we have to retool our economy to "win the future." The only way to do that is to grow the economy that makes things, not the sector that takes things.

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#88. To: lucysmom (#85)

If you think all people are "given equal opportunity to become what they will", you're living in lala land

So who isn't?????? And why????

"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning

CZ82  posted on  2011-04-03   13:42:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Liberator (#83)

More outrageous: Her ex-husband does NOT provide any alimony. Why isn't his daughter his responibility?

I take it her ex-husband is your brother, and the daughter is your niece?

I admire the way you tell the story to distance yourself as much as possible while establishing sufficient relationship to make your knowledge of her situation sound plausible.

Bottomline: She is a professional parasite...

I grew up back in the old days when caring for children and a home was the WORK women did. You guys want to go back to the old days, then support your women and children.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   13:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: We The People (#87)

My view is clearly spelled out. What is your view, aside from what you might think about my mental abilities?

Fair enough.

A child born to a single mom living in a slum and addicted to meth does not have the same opportunity as a George Bush to make of his life what he will.

That child does not have equal opportunity because what his environment provides is not equal; he is behind from conception.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   13:51:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: lucysmom (#89)

Face it Libs like handouts, Conservatives don't..... Or wasn't that the whole purpose of this thread?????

"I love the 45 caliber M1911, I respect the 9MM M9 Beretta but I only carry a CZ for my own personal protection". Quote courtesy of Lt Col John Dean Cooper, recognized as the Father of Modern Handgunning

CZ82  posted on  2011-04-03   13:52:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: lucysmom (#89)

I take it her ex-husband is your brother, and the daughter is your niece?

Would that revelation make any difference?

I admire the way you tell the story to distance yourself as much as possible while establishing sufficient relationship to make your knowledge of her situation sound plausible.

And I like the way you've distanced yourself away from the crux of the problem: A socialist-parasitic society dependent on a goobermint that confiscated wealth from the producers and rewards laziness, irresponsibility, and sloth.

I grew up back in the old days when caring for children and a home was the WORK women did. You guys want to go back to the old days, then support your women and children.

Those days are over - along with the days the father fulfilled his financial responsibly and supported his children. Maintaining a household is only ONE responsibility, just like personal hygiene.

You've choosen to ignore a major problem with a socialist nation: Subsidizing irresponsibility and sloth and penalizing responsibility and production. WHY are you so blind?

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   13:54:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: lucysmom (#89) (Edited)

I grew up back in the old days when caring for children and a home was the WORK women did. You guys want to go back to the old days, then support your women and children.

Shotguns weddings coming up! I can't wait for the women as chattel and can't own property.

"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"

Rek  posted on  2011-04-03   13:54:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: CZ82, Lucysmom (#91)

Face it Libs like handouts, Conservatives don't..... Or wasn't that the whole purpose of this thread?????

That's one of the purposes...

Somehow the liberals and leftists believe goobermint creates wealth, when instead all they do is destroy wealth and production - along with discouraging self-reliance and motivation.

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   13:58:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: lucysmom, We The People (#90) (Edited)

That child does not have equal opportunity because what his environment provides is not equal; he is behind from conception.

Where is there a constitutional mandate to legislate "equal environmental opportunity"??

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: lucysmom (#90)

A child born to a single mom living in a slum and addicted to meth does not have the same opportunity as a George Bush to make of his life what he will.

Sure he does. His journey may be more difficult, but he was born with a brain and a back, just like George Bush.

A George Bush can still commit a crime and end up in prison, just like the child in the slum. Or...either can work hard, make the right choices and rise to the top.

A George Bush can also be born addicted to meth. History has shown that certain presidents of this nation, walked around without shoes as a child. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument really that some are born into money and some are not?

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   14:02:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: We The People (#96) (Edited)

A George Bush can still commit a crime and end up in prison, just like the child in the slum. Or...either can work hard, make the right choices and rise to the top.

So the argument that one should get paid what you are worth doesn't enter into any of this? And those that can afford to pay them won't have some type of advantage?

Your tax lawyer is the equal to that which the Bush's can afford to hire? I doubt it.

"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"

Rek  posted on  2011-04-03   14:06:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Liberator (#92)

You've choosen to ignore a major problem with a socialist nation: Subsidizing irresponsibility and sloth and penalizing responsibility and production. WHY are you so blind?

A woman who cared for her children and home used to be considered responsible; you call her slothful because she currently doesn't have a second job.

Apparently she was productive in the Republican sense or she wouldn't be collecting unemployment now.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:10:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Liberator (#95)

Rags to riches...

Criticisms:

By social reformers and revolutionaries, who argue that only a handful of exceptionally capable and lucky persons are actually able to travel the "rags to riches" road, and that the great publicity given to such cases is an illusion designed to help keep the masses of the working class and the poor in line, and prevent them from agitating for an overall collective change in the direction of social equality.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rags_to_riches

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   14:10:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: We The People (#96)

His journey may be more difficult, but he was born with a brain and a back, just like George Bush....

LOL...

BDS!!

Paulite freak!!

Missed doctor appt!!!

Medication missed!!

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:12:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: lucysmom (#98)

A woman who cared for her children and home used to be considered responsible; you call her slothful because she currently doesn't have a second job.

HUH?? Don't confuse tasks with "jobs." She doesn't have ANY job, Lucy. It is ALL of our respective responsibility to earn a living. It is NOT the goobermint job.

Apparently she was productive in the Republican sense or she wouldn't be collecting unemployment now.

How so?

Challenge:

Please define "production in the Republican sense."

Please define "production in the Democrat sense."

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:17:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: lucysmom (#90)

A child born to a single mom living in a slum and addicted to meth does not have the same opportunity as a George Bush to make of his life what he will.

H. Wayne Huizenga

Wayne was born in Chicago, Illinois. In his early teens, Wayne and his family moved to Florida, but he soon realized that his father was not the male figure he should look up to. He abused his wife, but the move to Florida was made in hopes to keep the marriage from divorce. However, Wayne’s dad did not change, and he continuously abused his family. Wayne went to high school and afterward moved back to Chicago to go to college, but he soon dropped out. He then signed up to be part of the Army reserves and trained. After training he went back to Florida, bought a truck, and began taking garbage out of his county. Eventually, the one garbage truck he had purchased grew into a highly successful business. It ran all throughout Southern Florida and soon became known as Waste Management Inc. Soon enough, Wayne’s company was known all over the U.S. Wayne also purchased Blockbuster stores, which became a huge success, and eventually merged it with Viacom. Throughout his lifetime, Wayne has been able to find three Fortune 500 Companies.

www.toptenz.net/top-10-rags-to-riches-stories.php

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   14:17:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: lucysmom (#98)

Apparently she was productive in the Republican sense

Ahhhhh. Truth in motivation soon becomes apparent.

Nevermind. Any discussion would be in vain.

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   14:18:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: We The People (#99)

Rags to riches...

Criticisms:

By social reformers and revolutionaries, who argue that only a handful of exceptionally capable and lucky persons are actually able to travel the "rags to riches" road, and that the great publicity given to such cases is an illusion designed to help keep the masses of the working class and the poor in line, and prevent them from agitating for an overall collective change in the direction of social equality.

Translation:

Give up your hopes and dreams that you can be a productive, self-sufficient citizen. Odds are you are chasing your tail because capitalism is an illusion; VIVA LA WORKER! Socialism is the only way to make this (sob, sniffle) fair.

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:20:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Liberator (#94)

Somehow the liberals and leftists believe goobermint creates wealth, when instead all they do is destroy wealth and production - along with discouraging self-reliance and motivation.

Perhaps you would answer these questions - if it is unreasonable to demand that a business that can't make enough money to cover its operating expenses stay open, why is it reasonable to expect people to work for less money than it takes to support themselves?

If a corporation like Walmart, for instance, is profitable, makes its top shareholders billionaires and yet pays its employees so poorly that they in turn need tax-payer supported services to survive - why is scorn heaped on the needy employee rather than the employer?

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: We The People (#96)

History has shown that certain presidents of this nation, walked around without shoes as a child. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument really that some are born into money and some are not?

No. The argument is that in this culture, money buys opportunity.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:23:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: lucysmom (#106)

No. The argument is that in this culture, money buys opportunity.

So does hard work and intelligent choices.

Charlie Sheen has lots of money.

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   14:26:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Liberator (#101) (Edited)

Please define "production in the Republican sense."

Please define "production in the Democrat sense."

The relatively recent phenomenom of women permanently working outside the home other than as low or often non paid teachers and nurses is of a very recent occurrence, less than the last 50 years, out of our 235+ year history. And in that time most agree this country has been going down the tubes at an excellerated rate.

"http://first-draft-blog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c5ced53ef0148c7a28c4b970c-320wi"

Rek  posted on  2011-04-03   14:26:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: lucysmom (#105) (Edited)

Perhaps you would answer these questions...

If it is unreasonable to demand that a business that can't make enough money to cover its operating expenses stay open, why is it reasonable to expect people to work for less money than it takes to support themselves?

Firstly, the market of supply & demand dictates whether a business remains open.

Secondly, your skills are a commodity of which any given market considers value.

If Lucy possesses the skills of an NBA center, then Lucy's demand and value as a business asset reflects her demand.

My business it not required to hire and compensate someone at a salary at which is based on their dictates.

You advocate artificial price-controls and compensation regardless of supply and demand of skill. That has NEVER been the case in societal history. UNTIL 1917, Russia.

If a corporation like Walmart, for instance, is profitable, makes its top shareholders billionaires and yet pays its employees so poorly that they in turn need tax-payer supported services to survive - why is scorn heaped on the needy employee rather than the employer?

I don't know. What's your solution?

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:31:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Liberator (#101)

Please define "production in the Republican sense."

The word was productive.

Productive in the Republican sense is economic activity.

Please define "production in the Democrat sense."

Would include but not exclusive to economic activity. I would say Jesus lead a productive life.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:34:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: We The People (#80)

Not given their equal share by government, via taking away private property from someone else.

Next time read more before you jump into a conversation. I am talking about so called conservatives tending to be against private sector employees demanding better wages and work conditions. I cited examples above where so called conservatives always seem to take the position that certain types of workers should be paid less and should not demand more in the private sector and in many cases blame the America worker (either blame his high salary of his uppity nature) for the offshoring to commie China.

"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.

Godwinson  posted on  2011-04-03   14:39:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Rek (#108)

The relatively recent phenomenom of women permanently working outside the home other than as low or often non paid teachers and nurses is of a very recent occurrence, less than the last 50 years, out of our 235+ year history. And in that time most agree this country has been going down the tubes at an excellerated rate.

The correlation is obvious...

... But isn't more of a factor in exacerbated downfall of Late Great USA LBJ's Great Society/Plantation Act in 1964? Then the the Immigration Act of 1965 which imported 3rd Worlders instead of the ancestors - rather than those who'd shared the same values and built the US. Legalizing the Abortion Industry also contributed to our going down the tubes.

Destroying family responsibly and creating a financial/moral dependence on goobermint instead of individual cratered the USA.

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:40:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: We The People (#102)

Thank you Horatio Alger.

A poor, uneducated native of the Shafi`i (Sunni) Hadhramaut coast of south Yemen, Mohammed bin Laden emigrated to Saudi Arabia before World War I, initially working as a porter in Jeddah. In 1930, he started his own construction business and after coming to the attention of Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud, first monarch of Saudi Arabia, he eventually achieved such success that his family became known as "the wealthiest non-royal family in the kingdom."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_bin_Awad_bin_Laden

Does that prove that equal opportunity exists in Saudi Arabia?

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: lucysmom (#106)

The argument is that in this culture, money buys opportunity.

So now does skin color and demographic. The law and educational opportunity are skewed in favor also of those with dark pigment.

Is this fair in your opinion?

Liberator  posted on  2011-04-03   14:42:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: We The People (#107)

So does hard work and intelligent choices.

George W. Bush seemed to attain success without either.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:43:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Liberator, lucysmom, We The People (#111)

Liberator and We The People jumped into this with the standard Rush Limboughvian talking point crap.

I see one so called conservative so far has addressed my accusation that so called conservatives tend to be against private sector employees demanding better wages and work conditions. I cited examples above where so called conservatives always seem to take the position that certain types of workers should be paid less and should not demand more in the private sector and in many cases blame the America worker (either blame his high salary of his uppity nature) for the offshoring to commie China.

I give examples of conservatives on multiple forums angry that union auto workers get paid what they get paid (and many times the pundits that fool the rubes exaggerate the pay). You get conservatives praising lower paying jobs in the South over say higher paying jobs in union plants up north. How is a worker making less money praise worthy?

I remember that woman that told W Bush she worked 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and Bush praised that. I praise the woman but its a horrible sign that people make so little at one job they need to work other jobs. This has blowback effects on the economy like unsupervised children, health and stress problems, etc.

But if this working mom tried to fight for higher wagers the conservatives would attack her for being greedy.

They even did this on this forum when I proposed college athletes of sports that make billions in revenue be given a semi-pro salary. I got heated angry remarks (echoed on sports forums) that college players should be happy at getting room and board and a free education and should shut up and stop rocking the boat.

I don't get why conservatives don't want employees in the private sector to be paid more????

If you read the comments above - they want low skilled labor to be paid less, as if say a janitor should be living in poverty because he is a useless person or some such intimation.

"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.

Godwinson  posted on  2011-04-03   14:52:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Liberator (#109)

If Lucy possesses the skills of an NBA center, then Lucy's demand and value as a business asset reflects her demand.

At 5'2" Lucy's basketball aspirations (she did have them) went down the drain in high school and she became an accountant instead.

I don't know.

That's why your economic theory is a failure.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Liberator (#114)

The law and educational opportunity are skewed in favor also of those with dark pigment.

When schools in low income communities equal those in high income areas, that will be true.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   14:59:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: lucysmom (#115)

So does hard work and intelligent choices.

George W. Bush seemed to attain success without either.

That depends on what you consider success. You obviously consider it to be money.

Sure he has money, but he's hated around the world, except in very small circles. Think GW could walk down the sidewalk in any major city without being beaten or killed?

I don't call that success.

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   15:12:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Godwinson (#116)

I remember that woman that told W Bush she worked 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and Bush praised that. I praise the woman but its a horrible sign that people make so little at one job they need to work other jobs. This has blowback effects on the economy like unsupervised children, health and stress problems, etc.

A friend who works in a clinic that provides court ordered services to children and adolescents confirms that. She says its not hard to figure out why kids end up in court, the adults are all working and there is no one to take care of the kids.

If you read the comments above - they want low skilled labor to be paid less, as if say a janitor should be living in poverty because he is a useless person or some such intimation.

Its all well and good to invoke market forces/supply and demand to justify wages insufficient to keep body and soul together, however if that's the case than the failure is not the working individuals, but the theory's.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   15:15:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: We The People (#119)

That depends on what you consider success. You obviously consider it to be money.

So then you would consider a man who is a loving and supportive husband and father, who treats others with respect and decency, abides by the law, is a good neighbor, etc to be successful even if his wages are insufficient to meet his family's needs and he must rely on taxpayer supported services to get by?

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   15:23:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Godwinson (#111)

Next time read more before you jump into a conversation. I am talking about so called conservatives tending to be against private sector employees demanding better wages and work conditions. I cited examples above where so called conservatives always seem to take the position that certain types of workers should be paid less and should not demand more in the private sector and in many cases blame the America worker (either blame his high salary of his uppity nature) for the offshoring to commie China.

Next time read before you come to a conclusion. I've not seen ANY conservative take the position you accuse them of. Are you sure this isn't something you've made up in your head?

Are you Destro?

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   15:24:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: lucysmom (#121)

So then you would consider a man who is a loving and supportive husband and father, who treats others with respect and decency, abides by the law, is a good neighbor, etc to be successful even if his wages are insufficient to meet his family's needs and he must rely on taxpayer supported services to get by?

That's kind of a hard question to answer. You seem to have to go to awful lengths to make a point. Are you sure the point you're making is worth it?

I would consider a man who is a loving and supportive husband and father, who treats others with respect and decency, abides by the law, and is a good neighbor to be intelligent enough to live within his means and not need taxpayer supported services to get by.

Many of us need help from time to time. That's what family and churches are for. Way too many of us look to government to 'take' that help from others.

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   15:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: We The People (#122) (Edited)

Next time read before you come to a conclusion. I've not seen ANY conservative take the position you accuse them of. Are you sure this isn't something you've made up in your head?

I linked a couple of examples in the thread above - including McCain's economic advisor stating Americans make too much money and should get pay cuts. Please read before you waste my time. Learn to use the 'trace' button.

"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.

Godwinson  posted on  2011-04-03   15:36:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: We The People (#123)

Are you sure the point you're making is worth it?

If the other side weren't going to such great lengths to see what little social support the US has destroyed then the point wouldn't have to be made.

Many of us need help from time to time. That's what family and churches are for. Way too many of us look to government to 'take' that help from others.

Even the poor houses and work farms of old were government supported.

You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand

lucysmom  posted on  2011-04-03   15:39:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: lucysmom, Godwinson (#120)

I remember that woman that told W Bush she worked 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet and Bush praised that. I praise the woman but its a horrible sign that people make so little at one job they need to work other jobs. This has blowback effects on the economy like unsupervised children, health and stress problems, etc.

A friend who works in a clinic that provides court ordered services to children and adolescents confirms that. She says its not hard to figure out why kids end up in court, the adults are all working and there is no one to take care of the kids.

You both do realize why this is, I hope?

It's because of never ending deficit spending, causing government, through the fed, to print ever more amounts of money to be placed into circulation further devaluing the dollar and causing inflation.

It's because of your governments actions (and I do mean Republicans AND DEMOCRATS) implementing 'free trade' policies which ship our good manufacturing jobs overseas and not enforcing our immigration laws making Americans compete with illegal aliens over the remaining jobs.

It's because of INFLATION that it now takes two incomes for an average family to make ends meet and the feminist movement who encouraged American women to enter the workforce. You've come a long way baby!

lucysmom: If you read the comments above - they want low skilled labor to be paid less, as if say a janitor should be living in poverty because he is a useless person or some such intimation.

That is an outright fabrication and a horrible lie to make up about your fellow American, simply because you don't agree with their political views. Who do you believe wants a janitor to live in poverty?

Conservatives don't want ANYONE living in poverty and that is a bullshit leftist talking point and I'm actually saddened to even be addressing it.

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   15:40:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Godwinson (#124)

I've not seen ANY conservative take the position you accuse them of.

McCain's economic advisor

McCain's economic advisor?!?

That is who you consider a conservative?

And you have the nerve to tell me to please read before I waste your time?

I've entered Wonderland...right?

We The People  posted on  2011-04-03   15:43:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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