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Title: The battle over Internet sales tax
Source: E-Mail from Christian Science Monitor
URL Source: [None]
Published: Mar 12, 2011
Author: Howard Gleckman
Post Date: 2011-03-12 13:31:41 by CZ82
Keywords: None
Views: 6871
Comments: 26

The battle over Internet sales taxes, simmering for more than a decade, is boiling over. And I think somebody bought the tea kettle on Amazon.com for $39.95. Free shipping. No sales tax. Actually, there is, but more about that later.

It is no wonder the issue is taking on a new urgency. States face a 2012 budget deficit of $125 billion and are under heavy pressure to find revenue wherever they can. In 2010, E-commerce grew by nearly 15 percent to $165 billion. And $10 billion in tax revenue is on the table. On Main Street, many retailers are getting pounded by online competition, at the cost of local jobs.

In just the past few days, lawmakers in Colorado, Minnesota, Connecticut, and Missouri have joined California and a fistful of other states in moving to make online sellers collect sales taxes. Last month, Texas—not exactly a hotbed of aggressive taxation—presented Amazon with a bill for $269 million in uncollected sales taxes.

Amazon is playing serious hardball in response. It sued New York back in 2008 over the issue. It shuttered a distribution center in Texas and it is threatening to cut ties with affiliate sellers who are located in states that try to collect sales taxes. The outcome of these legislative battles is uncertain.

Still, if this keeps up, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the whole issue land in the lap of Congress—which has been ducking the controversy for 20 years. That would be just the thing for anti-tax Republicans who’ll get squeezed between their governors and local retailers on one hand, and the e-tailers on the other.

Before we head too far down this road, let’s get three things straight. First, this has nothing to do with taxing the Internet. Access to the Web is tax free, and nobody is suggesting making it otherwise (although your smart phone contract is as heavily taxed as anything in your life).

It isn’t about raising taxes either. If you think sales taxes are too high, fine. Lobby to lower them. But it doesn’t make to tax a tea kettle purchased from one seller differently from the same tea kettle bought from its competitor.

It is also not about whether on-line buyers owe tax on their Net purchases. They do. If you live in a state with a sales tax, you’ve got to pay, no matter where you buy. If the seller doesn’t collect the money, you owe what’s known as a use tax. It is right there on your income tax form.

But, of course, almost nobody pays. And that’s where those online retailers have an unfair competitive advantage over local brick-and-mortar stores. Buyers get what looks like a 5 or 6 percent “discount” because of those uncollected sales taxes. Worse, their local competitors may end up paying higher taxes to make up for the lost revenues.

Sales tax collections by out-of-state sellers are governed by a legal principle called “nexus.” In effect, if a business has a physical presence in a state, it is obligated to collect. The states are arguing that if Amazon and other online sellers have warehouses or even affiliated businesses in their jurisdiction, they must collect the tax.

In 1992, the Supreme Court practically begged Congress to sort out the mess, noting both the complexity of these issues and the danger to business of conflicting rules in different states. In those days, mail-order firms (there was no E-commerce) argued it would be too complicated to keep track of the different sales tax rules and rates around the country.

Congress responded by creating a commission.

Technology has changed since 1992. Data miners know more about us than I want to contemplate. Keeping track of our zip code and the applicable tax rate is child’s play. Yet, the battle over Internet sales taxes drags on. For a decade, a group of two dozen states has been trying to sort this out on its own, with limited success. It is long past time for Congress to straighten it out.


Poster Comment:

So I guess this wouldn't be a problem if we had a "Consumption based" system instead of the monstrosity we have now. No more favors to special interest groups to get some votes......

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 20.

#2. To: CZ82 (#0)

So I guess this wouldn't be a problem if we had a "Consumption based" system instead of the monstrosity we have now. No more favors to special interest groups to get some votes......

The FairTax is just a different monstrosity.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-13   12:22:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: lucysmom (#2)

The FairTax is just a different monstrosity.

In what respect???? Because you think you will lose all of your deductions you currently get???? But then again if you're not paying your "fair share" then its a moot point... isn't it.....

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-13   12:34:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: CZ82 (#3)

In what respect???? Because you think you will lose all of your deductions you currently get???? But then again if you're not paying your "fair share" then its a moot point... isn't it.....

In more ways than I have time to list this morning so I give you just one.

The FairTax claims that when embedded taxes are removed from the price of a product or service pre-tax prices will fall roughly in the amount of the FairTax added making the final price to the consumer comparable to what it currently is. Sounds good until you consider that those embedded taxes are payroll taxes and income tax deducted from the employee's paycheck. That means that in order for prices to fall, pay has to be cut as well.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-13   12:48:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: lucysmom (#4)

The FairTax claims that when embedded taxes are removed from the price of a product or service pre-tax prices will fall roughly in the amount of the FairTax added making the final price to the consumer comparable to what it currently is. Sounds good until you consider that those embedded taxes are payroll taxes and income tax deducted from the employee's paycheck. That means that in order for prices to fall, pay has to be cut as well.

Excerpt from FAQ at the Fair Tax website............. Here is the website:

www.fairtax.org/site/Page...ename=about_faq_answer s#5

How does the FairTax affect wages and prices?

Americans who produce goods and earn wages must pay significant tax and compliance costs under the current federal income tax. These taxes and costs both reduce after-tax wages and profits and are then passed on to the consumers of those goods and services in the form of price increases. When the FairTax removes income, capital gains, payroll, and estate and gift taxes, the pre- FairTax prices of these goods and services will fall. The removal of these hidden taxes may also allow wages to rise. Exactly how much prices will fall and wages will rise depends on market forces. For example, in a profession with many jobs and too few to fill them, wages will likely increase more than in fields where there are too many employees and not enough jobs.

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-14   6:36:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: CZ82 (#7)

When the FairTax removes income, capital gains, payroll, and estate and gift taxes, the pre- FairTax prices of these goods and services will fall.

How do capital gains, estate, and gift taxes impact price of goods and services?

Boortz, the guy who wrote the book along with Linder, the Congressman who introduces the FairTax Bill every year (he didn't write the bill, lobbyists did that), says:

Every employee of any company involved in American commerce is also a provider of a service, and, as such, the employee incurs a tax liability as a result of his or her work. This tax liability is incorporated into what the employee charges the employer for their services, and is eventually incorporated into the final retail cost of the employer's product or service. Each employee is essentially a separate business entity providing a product, be it physical or mental labor, to the employer.

snip

We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes. Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees? Yes, it does. So ... what does this mean to your paycheck after the FairTax becomes law?

When the FairTax is implemented, and when business and personal income and payroll taxes disappear, your employer is going to have to make a decision. He will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call "take home pay" before the FairTax. The employer may also decide to do a little of both. Either way, you can see that the amount of money you actually receive as pay – the amount you can put into your bank account – will not decrease, and may actually increase.

boortz.com/nuze/200509/09152005.html

So, according to Boortz, the pay you take home is your wages, the income and payroll taxes deducted from your check is your tax burden paid for you by your employer - that money does not belong to you, it belongs to your employer.

The difference to you is that when your employer no longer pays your taxes for you, you will have to pay them out of your take home pay everytime you buy food, pay your rent, pay your utility bill, etc, etc.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-14   11:19:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: lucysmom (#8)

The difference to you is that when your employer no longer pays your taxes for you, you will have to pay them out of your take home pay everytime you buy food, pay your rent, pay your utility bill, etc, etc.

And this means what????

They take "out" what the seller is adding into the price of goods because of his tax burden which is 22-23%. Then they put that tax (22-23%) "back" into the price of the goods and it will go directly to the government. (if your toaster cost $79 before Fair Tax it will be $79 after Fair Tax is implemented). So in essence everything will be the same except for a few things ...... you will not need the IRS any more (or greatly reduced), you won't have to fill out a 1040 anymore, if you have a tendency to save money instead of blow your whole paycheck then you will be paying "LESS" in taxes, and you might be making more in take home pay.......... I.E. the more you spend the more tax you pay, the less you spend the less tax you pay..... simple.....

The part I like the most is all of the Tax evaders who have not been paying taxes to the IRS or cheating on their tax forms will no longer be able to do that cause it automatically comes out when they buy something........ I don't know the exact figure but that adds up to billions of dollars.........

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-14   18:22:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: CZ82 (#11)

They take "out" what the seller is adding into the price of goods because of his tax burden which is 22-23%. Then they put that tax (22-23%) "back" into the price of the goods and it will go directly to the government. (if your toaster cost $79 before Fair Tax it will be $79 after Fair Tax is implemented).

Too bad that toaster was made in China and will cost $79.00 plus 30% FairTax and state and local sales taxes.

... you will not need the IRS any more

A tax collecting bureaucracy by any other name is still a tax collecting bureaucracy.

if you have a tendency to save money instead of blow your whole paycheck then you will be paying "LESS" in taxes, and you might be making more in take home pay.......... I.E. the more you spend the more tax you pay, the less you spend the less tax you pay..... simple.....

If you save with a bank, you will be charged a FairTax on the value of the banking service. If you invest with a broker, you will be paying 30% FairTax on the value of his service.

The part I like the most is all of the Tax evaders who have not been paying taxes to the IRS or cheating on their tax forms will no longer be able to do that cause it automatically comes out when they buy something........ I don't know the exact figure but that adds up to billions of dollars.........

Or maybe they'll just claim a purchase as a business expense and pay no tax.

The other possibility is a booming black market - the prospect of avoiding 30% federal as well as state and local sales taxes would be a powerful motivator.

Bottom line, people who cheat aren't going to stop cheating just because the system changes.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-14   20:29:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: lucysmom (#12)

Or maybe they'll just claim a purchase as a business expense and pay no tax.

I see you've been reading the propaganda sites (extra 30%) that want to keep the current tax system because they are exempt from paying taxes..... This proposal would take a lot of power away from the politicians and lobbyists.... No more lies during election campaigns and no more threatening people with taking away their tax exemptions or using the IRS to "audit" them......

So how do you cheat on a system that doesn't exist anymore?????????????? If you don't have to fill out a tax form (1040 or whatever the hell you fill out) then there are no deductions of any kind. Why would there be???? You don't have to pay personal income tax anymore!!!!! (But...... you still have to pay State, Local and property taxes....)

On top of that the individual states would be collecting the money and sending it on to the federal government, so if anybody is cheating on taxes it would be the states....

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-14   20:52:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: CZ82 (#13)

I see you've been reading the propaganda sites (extra 30%) that want to keep the current tax system because they are exempt from paying taxes.....

Aside from untrue, its just lame.

This proposal would take a lot of power away from the politicians and lobbyists.... No more lies during election campaigns and no more threatening people with taking away their tax exemptions or using the IRS to "audit" them......

You really must be naive to believe that.

The FairTax organization is Astro turf, the bill was written by lobbyists, the research bought and paid for.

So how do you cheat on a system that doesn't exist anymore??????????????

You don't.

You're a cheater, you cheat on the new system.

(But...... you still have to pay State, Local and property taxes....)

Yes. and what do you think will happen to your state and local taxes when your state and local governments are paying 30% on goods and services they purchase to the federal government?

On top of that the individual states would be collecting the money and sending it on to the federal government, so if anybody is cheating on taxes it would be the states....

No, it would be individual tax payers just as it is now.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-14   22:11:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: lucysmom (#14)

I see you've been reading the propaganda sites (extra 30%) that want to keep the current tax system because they are exempt from paying taxes..... Aside from untrue, its just lame.

You read my mind exactly, the propaganda sites are lame.....

Here try this on for size:

Criticism: The FairTax rate is really 30%, not the 23% proponents say.

This smokescreen counts on the notion that many Americans have a problem with applied arithmetic. A 30% EXPLICIT tax is the EXACT same thing as a 23% IMPLICIT tax.

Some examples should make this clear.

· If a suit costs $100 and a 30% sales tax is in effect, you will pay $130 for the suit. Suit cost is $100. Tax is $30. That is a 30% EXPLICIT tax rate ($30 / $100) = 30%.

· If total cost for a suit is $130, including $30 tax, you will pay the SAME $130 for the suit. Suit costs $100. Tax is $30. That is a 23% IMPLICIT tax rate ($30/$130) = 23%.

So what’s the big deal? Well, think of how Income Taxes are ALWAYS stated. By IMPLICIT RATES. When we are told a marginal rate is 25%, what is understood is that this means $25 is taken out of every $100 made. But that rate can also be expressed as 33% because $25 represents 33% of the $75 the taxpayer actually gets to keep.

It is a fact that a sales tax is generally expressed as an EXPLICIT rate, and that the revenue-collection mechanism of The FairTax is a national retail sales tax. But how can The FairTax be compared to The Income Tax if we don’t express the rates in the same manner? So either both are expressed in IMPLICIT terms or as EXPLICIT terms.

FairTax proponents will express their tax rate as 30% BUT ONLY if Income Tax proponents express their rates in EXPLICIT terms also. But they insist that we express our rate as the higher number EXPLICIT rate while they get to express their rates as the lower number IMPLICIT rates.

The jury is out on whether this argument is put forth by arithmetically- challenged but well-meaning opponents or …. well ….. LIARS who know full well what they are doing

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-14   22:30:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: CZ82 (#15)

BTW you haven't answered my question; How do capital gains, estate, and gift taxes impact price of goods and services?

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-14   23:12:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: lucysmom (#17)

BTW you haven't answered my question; How do capital gains, estate, and gift taxes impact price of goods and services?

When the FairTax removes income, capital gains, payroll, and estate and gift taxes, the pre-FairTax prices of these goods and services will fall by roughly 23%. The removal of these hidden taxes may also allow wages to rise. Exactly how much prices will fall and wages will rise depends on market forces.

For example, in a profession with many jobs and too few to fill them, wages will likely increase more than in fields where there are too many employees and not enough jobs.

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-14   23:36:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: CZ82 (#19)

In this case a cut and paste from another site won't work.

Please READ the question and answer

"How do capital gains, estate, and gift taxes impact price of goods and services?"

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-14   23:48:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 20.

#21. To: lucysmom (#20)

If its not obvious that adding "those" taxes makes the price of "goods" go up then I give up. If you want some high falluting, egghead answer then sorry you won't get it here....

Just be sure to give more to the government than you actually owe and we all will be happy...

CZ82  posted on  2011-03-15 00:04:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 20.

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