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Title: Is Wisconsin the Real Republican Waterloo?
Source: Forbes
URL Source: [None]
Published: Mar 10, 2011
Author: E.D. Kain
Post Date: 2011-03-10 13:43:39 by go65
Keywords: None
Views: 52408
Comments: 76

After the Affordable Care Act was passed in 2010, conservative writer David Frum called the passage of the bill the GOP’s “Waterloo” referencing Napoleon Bonaparte’s crushing defeat at the hands of the Duke of Wellington. This earned him the ire of his fellow conservatives and pushed him further outside the conservative movement.

But David was wrong. If anything, the healthcare reform victory was the GOP’s Siege of Acre. Wisconsin is shaping up to be the real Waterloo.

And not just Wisconsin, but also Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, Arizona, Florida, and the rest of the over- reaching state Republicans. Governors like Scott Walker, Rick Scott, and Jan Brewer are riding on the coattails of the Tea Party, but they’ve become blind to the dangers of their radical policies.

In Wisconsin, Democrats are already promising to step-up recall efforts. But the recalls are only a small part of what is likely going to be a huge anti-Republican backlash across the nation, as working Americans finally realize what that party actually stands for: an playing field heavily tilted toward the rich and powerful, toward corporate power, and against worker rights.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 74.

#2. To: go65 (#0) (Edited)

Utter nonsense. What we are actually witnessing here is the final death of the 20th century.

It isn't just the GOP proposing to make radical change. Look at governor Cuomo in New York. He's beating up on government bureaucrat unions too. He's now also proposing radical tort reform and part of his efforts to reign in healthcare costs.

Reactionaries from government bureaucrats to trial lawyers are lashing out. It's not a surprise.

The bottom line is that this is all simple math. We can no longer afford to have the unproductive segment of society leach off of the productive segment. We can no longer afford to fund schools and teachers that pump out functional illiterates. We can no longer afford to hand people checks to putter around in Florida in their lime green golf pants for 15 or 20 years.

We are in a competitive global economy. This can't work anymore.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-10   13:55:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: jwpegler, go65 (#2)

The bottom like is that this is all simple math. We can no longer afford to have the unproductive segment of society leach off of the productive segment. We can no longer afford to fund schools and teachers that pump out functional illiterates. We can no longer afford to hand people checks to putter around in Florida in their lime green golf pants for 15 or 20 years.

So your solution is to under pay teachers who will educate the next generation?

Ok, you will come back and say - no you don't to pay for this current crop of teachers. OK, let's say we fire them all and hire MIT geniuses as teachers. You think MIT grads will work for public schools that pay 50 grand a year? So then we will have to raise taxes and pay teachers 100K to 200K a year for the quality you are claiming would justify the increased taxes.

I will leave out the part about keeping old people alive and just concentrate on the educational matters.

By the way, we can afford all this if we tax the unproductive rich in America. I don't get this rich worship as if the rich somehow earned it and they are responsible for keeping all us lowly serfs from living in dirt.

Godwinson  posted on  2011-03-10   14:15:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Godwinson, jwpegler (#3)

Ok, you will come back and say - no you don't to pay for this current crop of teachers. OK, let's say we fire them all and hire MIT geniuses as teachers. You think MIT grads will work for public schools that pay 50 grand a year? So then we will have to raise taxes and pay teachers 100K to 200K a year for the quality you are claiming would justify the increased taxes.

MIT geniuses make far less than say the CEO of ExxonMobil, which makes them less productive. What Jwpegler really wants is for the productive members of society, those making in the tens or hundreds of millions a year, do educate our students.

I'm waiting to hear his plan as to how he's going to make that happen.

go65  posted on  2011-03-10   15:35:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: go65 (#8) (Edited)

What Jwpegler really wants is for the productive members of society, those making in the tens or hundreds of millions a year, do educate our students.

I'm waiting to hear his plan as to how he's going to make that happen.

What are you babbling about?

Here's my plan: Supply and Demand in a Competitive Market.

Supply and demand does a great job setting the price for computer programmers, all sorts of engineers, lawyers, accountants, and even auto mechanics.

Supply and demand will set the right price for teachers as well.

It's just that simple.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-10   15:41:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: jwpegler (#9)

Here's my plan: Supply and Demand in a Competitive Market.

Great - so those who can't afford a good education simply don't get one? Those with special needs kids that can't afford to get them the services they need simply go without?

Seriously?

go65  posted on  2011-03-10   17:57:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: go65 (#26)

so those who can't afford a good education simply don't get one?

They don't get one today. If parents had a choice where to send their kids, most kids would be better off.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-10   18:03:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: jwpegler (#27) (Edited)

They don't get one today. If parents had a choice where to send their kids, most kids would be better off.

to be brutally honest, I think you are giving the parents too much credit. We're fortunate to go to a school with a ton of parental involvement, and as a result, our kids do way better than average and we have a lot of extra-curricular activities run by parent volunteers.

A few days ago I caught up with a friend of mine who teaches at the elementary level in a poorer area school. We got to talking about our school and he was absolutely stunned. He has to beg for volunteers to help the class, and parents are rarely reachable or show any interest in their kids education. Meanwhile, the kids have every electronic gadget under the sun.

The point here is that parents are as responsible for their kids education as are the schools. Conservatives often seem to forget that part when the place all the blame on teachers.

go65  posted on  2011-03-10   21:32:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: go65, capitalist eric (#44)

The point here is that parents are as responsible for their kids education as are the schools

Most parents have never taken and calculus class or physics class. Unfortunately, most public school science and math "teachers" haven't either. You can't take a Phys Ed major, hand him a physics book, send him into a classroom, and expect him to produce world class students.

Unfortunately, the unions are all about protecting their monopolies so they won't let someone with a math, science, engineering, or computer science degree into the classroom unless they go back to college to get a worthless teaching degree.

I have a friend who I worked with at Microsoft in the 1990s. Very smart guy and very left-wing. He decided to go back to school, get his teaching degree, and teach math in the public schools.

He quickly became frustrated over the fact that most teachers cared more about politics and following their stupid union work rules than they did about the kids. To him, the teacher's mindless selfishness was unbearable. So he quit teaching after one school year.

I have another friend who I worked with at the Accenture subsidiary, who left to start her own elementary school after she got frustrated with the poor quality of eduction her own kids were receiving in school. She is doing very well in her education business.

People all over the political spectrum are waking up to what is really going on in the schools. The NEA's era of unrestricted control is finally coming to an end. It's not a moment too soon.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-11   11:24:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: jwpegler (#58)

He quickly became frustrated over the fact that most teachers cared more about politics and following their stupid union work rules than they did about the kids. To him, the teacher's mindless selfishness was unbearable. So he quit teaching after one school year

I haven't seen that in our schools.

People all over the political spectrum are waking up to what is really going on in the schools. The NEA's era of unrestricted control is finally coming to an end. It's not a moment too soon.

You still haven't answered the question - what do you about those who can't afford to pay for a private education?

go65  posted on  2011-03-11   11:28:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: go65 (#59) (Edited)

what do you about those who can't afford to pay for a private education?

You are confusing two things: A.) whether education is a public good and B.) whether government should have a monopoly on the provision of the service.

Most people would answer yes to A. The answer to B is absolutely not.

You can set up a system of refundable tax credits or vouchers to pay for education.

If the parents had a choice on where to sending their kids, all kinds of different schools would spring up, including military boarding schools for troublesome kids.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-11   11:40:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: jwpegler (#61)

You can set up a system of refundable tax credits or vouchers to pay for education.

tax credits won't help the working poor, and who's going to pay for the vouchers? Certainly you aren't expecting the productive class to have to give up their hard earned money to pay for services for the unproductive class, right?

go65  posted on  2011-03-11   11:54:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: go65 (#63)

tax credits won't help the working poor, and who's going to pay for the vouchers? Certainly you aren't expecting the productive class to have to give up their hard earned money to pay for services for the unproductive class, right?

The taxpayers are going to pay for the vouchers.

One of the things Walker wants to do is hand out more vouchers.

Walker's budget proposal would drop the cap on the number of total vouchers, expand the voucher option beyond the City of Milwaukee to pupils from the Milwaukee suburbs, and lift the income restriction, enabling kids from higher income families to take advantage of the vouchers. (Though private schools can charge pupils an additional tuition fee if the family's income is 325 percent or more of the poverty level, some of the private schools say that the per pupil voucher payment is not enough.)

http://www.nonprofitquarterly.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=10271:school-vouchers-multiply-in-gov-walkers-wisconsin-state-budget&catid=155:nonprofit-newswire&Itemid=986

Several years ago (I don't know what it is now) tuition at the good private schools was $35,000 a year - the state pays under $8,000 per student.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-11   12:15:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: lucysmom (#64)

One of the things Walker wants to do is hand out more vouchers.

Walker is trying to fix the schools. That's the entire point of stripping unions of their monopoly power over education. Now they can fire bad teachers and implement performance bonuses for good ones.

Obama's Secretary of Education tried to pursue radical education reform through school choice in Chicago and he was BASHED by the unions and professional left as well.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-11   14:29:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: jwpegler (#67)

Walker is trying to fix the schools. That's the entire point of stripping unions of their monopoly power over education. Now they can fire bad teachers and implement performance bonuses for good ones.

Oh, I thought the purpose was balancing the budget (this is beginning to remind me of the reasons Bush went to war with Iraq).

Wisconsin ranks 3rd for SAT scores and 13th for ACT scores - in other words, they're doing pretty darn well. Go look and see where conservative Texas ranks.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-11   19:35:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: lucysmom (#70) (Edited)

I thought the purpose was balancing the budget

Yep, that is the short term goal.

The long term goal is to fix the schools.

Everyone who has taken an honest look at this understands what the short and long term goals are.

There is no secret. It's all out on the table. Walker said it again yesterday on Fox and today on Morning Joe. It's very clear.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-11   19:39:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: jwpegler (#72)

The long term goal is to fix the schools.

Everyone who has taken an honest look at this understands what the short and long term goals are.

You know, we have several very nice bridges here, and I've been given the exclusive contract to sell them...

lucysmom  posted on  2011-03-11   19:41:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 74.

#75. To: lucysmom (#74)

You know, we have several very nice bridges here, and I've been given the exclusive contract to sell them...

Walker has been saying the exact same things all along. He said them again yesterday on Fox and today on Morning Joe (MSNBC).

This is all very, very clear.

The NEA is out of control. Our schools are failing. We are paying too much for failing schools.

Governor Cuomo of NY is taking on the unions and also the trial lawyers. It is a HUGE deal when a Democrat governor goes after his two largest pressure groups at once.

It should tell everyone that there is something very wrong with the system.

jwpegler  posted on  2011-03-11 19:46:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 74.

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