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Title: Why Budget Cuts Don’t Bring Prosperity (Editors Note: Liberal flakes think debt brings prosperity)
Source:
NY Times
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/b ... 8476805-+EVLD3awkLTiddJu1p0IDw
Published: Feb ,
Author:
Post Date: 2011-02-23 12:22:41 by go65
Keywords: None
Views: 26982
Comments: 45
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#6. To: lucysmom (#4)
with the exception of Jwpegler, most conservatives will admit that government spending for WWII drove economic growth.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
Why do Republicans who are normal everyday people think they are climatologists or economists or what not when they comment on such issues? Going by your gut rather than your head gets us into Iraq style wars.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
What's funny is they mention this as a reason why socialism does not work. What happens is they misread - or Limbough mistold them - that FDR's programs did not get us out of the Depression only WW2 spending did. Well that proved uber socialism (for a short period until recovery sets in) kicked started the economy and that half measure socialism just kept us afloat - but that goes over their head.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Yeah, but they say it like its a bad thing.
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
VC = Investment to create new products and services. Not borrowing to subsidize bureaucrats.
What about government "investing" in new technologies, infrastructure, and research?
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
FDR's policies prolonged the depression. You twenty year olds think you know something. You don't. You are clueless.
Because the cure of full socialism was resisted as WW2 socialism proved.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Yea, like the govt created internet and the gove funded satellites that allow me to watch all of the sports channels....
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
LOL! Honestly, what planet are you idiots from? When you are in a financial hole what do you do as an individual? SPEND MORE? Really, what drugs are you idiots abusing?
Living in mouth breather's empty noggins 24/7/365 totally rent free!
I hope you told that to George Bush after he started two unfunded wars.
"I hate this damn job" - Sarah Palin
You aren't very well informed.
Bush was bad. Obama is about 1000 times worse.
Great, let's start WWIII and we'll all be rich. War is a large version of the Keynesian broken window nonsense. According to the Keynesian Kooks, if someone breaks your window and that's a good thing because Pella has more work. What you don't see is that J.C. Penney has less work because the money you were saving to buy a suit now has to go to fixing the window. War is just a big version of that. I used to hear in the 70s and 80s that that the Japanese were kicking our butts because Japan was destroyed in WWII and therefore they were able to rebuild more modern factories. Seriously, this is what I learned in high school and college. It's wrong. The Japanese kicked our butts because American auto companies were run by clueless idiots and staffed by fat, lazy unions members. America got too arrogant and complacent in the 20 to 30 years after WWII and we paid the price.
War is just a big version of that. That is a good example. It applies to the stimulus also.
I'm 100% in favor in government investing in infrastructure like roads, bridges, ports, etc. Unfortunately, only 2% of the massive Obama "stimulus" was spent on these things. The rest was spent subsidizing state government bureaucrat pensions and healthcare. It didn't stimulate anything. Pelosi and the rest of the nutters now call any and all government spending an "investment". That's wrong. An investment is something that creates more productive capacity which facilitates future growth. The government has little capacity do this any longer because they are spending all of the money of transfer payments. That's the problem.
All of the evidence shows that you are correct. The economy was in worse shape in 1938 than it was when Roosevelt took office in January 1933. Sure WWII finally got people busy. Busy building bombs, tanks, and submarines. Did that make us wealthier? No. The country had to go into massive debt to do it. That deficit spending was unsustainable, just like government deficit spending is unsustainable today. After WWII, the Keynesian Kooks tried to convince Truman to keep the war time economy going. They told him to build tanks and planes and park them in the desert. Truman told them to shove off. Over the next three years, Truman cut government spending by 60% -- from 52% of GDP to 20% of GDP. According to g065, this should have collapsed the economy and put us into a even worse depression. Instead, the private sector responded by creating products and servers that people wanted to buy to improve their lives. Yeah, economic activity was largely flat for those 3 years, but we were quickly transforming from an economy that built tanks and bombs to one that built houses, televisions, and dishwashers. Truman saved this country. Not Roosevelt. Roosevelt nearly destroyed it.
That is the understatement of the year.
Unfortunately, only 2% of the massive Obama "stimulus" was spent on these things. The rest was spent subsidizing state government bureaucrat pensions and healthcare. It didn't stimulate anything. 1/3rd of it went to tax cuts in an effort to buy Republican votes, a colossal mistake IMHO.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
On what do you base this? Certainly not GDP. U.S. GDP (Billions): Nor unemployment: Now map the above to spending: in 1933: $8.7 billion See the correlation?
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
Seems about the same to me, except he's black. Is that what you mean?
"I hate this damn job" - Sarah Palin
Fat, lazy, arrogant, clueless, and complacent indeed were issues, but they were management issues, not employee or union issues.
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
Instead, the private sector responded by creating products and servers that people wanted to buy to improve their lives. Yeah, economic activity was largely flat for those 3 years, but we were quickly transforming from an economy that built tanks and bombs to one that built houses, televisions, and dishwashers. Truman saved this country. Not Roosevelt. Roosevelt nearly destroyed it. They both saved it. Different circumstances require different solutions.
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
You racist POS, skidmark.
the last time you made the point I showed you how GDP fell through the floor during the time Truman cut spending. Go back and look at GDP under Hoover.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
Lucy, I like jwpegler but he has a penchant to post B.S. quite often, his claims about Truman are patently false. Go look at this thread; http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=17226&Disp=40#C40 http://www.house.gov/jec/fiscal/budget/surplus2/surplus2.htm US GDP Growth: Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
OMG, look at who the charred and burned cast iron kettle is calling black!
How do you get that from what I said? I'm talking about his quadrupling of the debt. I'm talking about him saying he is anti war yet continues it. I'm talking about his baby murder philisophy. I'm talking about his support of destroying marriage position. I'm talking about his support of muslim propaganda. I'm talking about his refusal to release his birth certificate. I'm talking about his socialism. I'm talking about his saying he would close gitmo yet it remains open. I'm talking about lots and lots of stuff. Nothing to do with his skin color. You see I believe we all came from Adam and Eve and that we are all gods children.
Are you trying to tell me you only like Obama because he is half black and you only hate Bush because he is white? Ok I got ya.
The recession in 1937 was the result of Roosevelt yielding to Republican pressure to reduce deficits, balance the budget and cut spending. (Gee whiz, where have I heard that before?) When it became clear that wasn't working, Roosevelt increased spending for relief and public works with an additional $5 billion. As go65's numbers show, the economy quickly recovered.
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
There was a nearly one year recession between 1948 and 1949 from which the economy barely recovered. During this recession, the Gross Domestic Product of the United States fell 1.7 percent. In October of 1949, the unemployment rate reached its peak for the cycle of 7.9 percent. It took an outbreak of hostilities in Korea in 1950 to REALLY work off the excess labor pool and to get industry REALLY moving again.
Obama did not quadruple the debt.
When it became clear that wasn't working, Roosevelt increased spending for relief and public works with an additional $5 billion. As go65's numbers show, the economy quickly recovered. Maybe you'll have better luck getting through to jwpegler than I.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
As i noted i post #32, we had negative GDP in 1949.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
I think someone killed off the real jwpegler and gave us this doof in his place.
Now the facts: Whatever the ideal level of government may be, the political and economic developments of the past year have made clear that in many societies, particularly among the more developed countries, the limits of appropriate or tolerable government spending may have been reached or even surpassed. … Countries that reduced government spending had economic growth rates almost two percentage points higher in 2009 than countries whose government spending scores worsened, and countries with the highest rates of government spending had gross domestic product (GDP) growth rates 4.5 percentage points lower on average than countries where government spending was best contained. --- http://blog.heritage.org/2011/01/24/government-spending-vs-economic-growth/
Now, I know I’m not going to change the minds of any of the True Believers…those who read all of Reverend Al’s sermons, and say things like, “You know, global warming can mean warmer OR colder, wetter OR drier, cloudier OR sunnier, windier OR calmer, …”. Can I get an ‘amen’??
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
You have the courage to tell the masses what no politician told them: you are inferior and all the improvements in your conditions which you simply take for granted you owe to the efforts of men who are better than you. Ludwig von Mises in a letter to Ayn Rand
So Obama should send us all a one hundred thousand dollar check to stimulate the economy. I'm still waiting.
I would have proposed a freeze on mortgage interest payments - mortgages on primary dwellings would just repay the principal. That would have helped more people keep their homes and stimulated spending (people spend more money on household things than anything else). I would ban credit card companies from issuing usury interest and regulated who is given credit. Issue the poor on credit a debit card system instead. All run or regulated by the evil govt. What I am saying is we nationalized the financial industry under Bush but did nothing with that other than bail the failed capitalists out rather than use those failed banks as a way to funnel money to the people. My idea anyway - based on reading too much Catholic tracts.... PS: I am using the term capitalist in the ignorant way GOPers online and on talk radio tend to use it. I am pretty sure they have no clue what capitalism or socialism or communism actually is.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
the best way to stimulate the economy is to get money into the hands of those who will spend it - by suspending payroll taxes for lower income earners, spending in infrastructure to create jobs, or rebates to low income wage earners. Cutting taxes on those who earn over $250k a year has very little stimulative effect on the economy. Remember Ronald Reagan? He called the earned income tax credit, which paid money to the working poor "the best anti-poverty, the best pro-family, the best job creation measure to come out of Congress."
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
What's venture capital about?
#7. To: lucysmom, A K A Stone, go65 (#4)
This article is shit. Borrowing doesn't bring prosperity.
#8. To: go65, lucysmom (#6)
with the exception of Jwpegler, most conservatives will admit that government spending for WWII drove economic growth.
#9. To: go65 (#6)
with the exception of Jwpegler, most conservatives will admit that government spending for WWII drove economic growth.
#10. To: lucysmom (#4)
What's venture capital about?
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#11. To: jwpegler (#10)
VC = Investment to create new products and services.
#12. To: Godwinson (#8)
#13. To: A K A Stone (#12)
FDR's policies prolonged the depression.
#14. To: lucysmom, jwpegler (#11)
What about government "investing" in new technologies, infrastructure, and research?
#15. To: go65 (#0)
#16. To: A K A Stone (#2)
This article is shit. Borrowing doesn't bring prosperity.
#17. To: Godwinson (#13)
#18. To: Skip Intro (#16)
I hope you told that to George Bush after he started two unfunded wars.
#19. To: go65 (#6)
(Edited)
with the exception of Jwpegler, most conservatives will admit that government spending for WWII drove economic growth.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#20. To: jwpegler (#19)
War is a large version of the Keynesian broken window nonsense. Someone breaks your window and that's a good thing because the Pella has more work. What you don't see is that J.C. Penney has less work because the money you were saving to buy a suit now has to go to fixing the window.
#21. To: lucysmom (#11)
(Edited)
What about government "investing" in new technologies, infrastructure, and research?
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#22. To: A K A Stone (#12)
(Edited)
FDR's policies prolonged the depression.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#23. To: A K A Stone (#17)
You aren't very well informed.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented."-- Charles Duell, Commissioner of US Patent Office, 1899
#24. To: jwpegler (#21)
I'm 100% in favor in government investing in infrastructure like roads, bridges, ports, etc.
#25. To: jwpegler (#22)
(Edited)
All of the evidence shows that you are correct. The economy was in worse shape in 1938 than it was when Roosevelt took office in January 1933.
in 1933: $56.4
in 1934: $66.0
in 1935: $73.3
in 1936: $83.8
in 1937: $91.9
in 1938: $86.1
in 1939: $92.2
in 1940: $101.4
in 1933: 24.9%
in 1934: 21.7%
in 1935: 20.1%
in 1936: 16.9%
in 1937: 14.3%
in 1938: 19.0%
in 1939: 17.2%
in 1934: $10.5
in 1935: $10.9
in 1936: $13.1
in 1937: $12.8
in 1938: $13.8
in 1939: $14.8
#26. To: A K A Stone (#18)
Bush was bad. Obama is about 1000 times worse.
#27. To: jwpegler (#19)
The Japanese kicked our butts because American auto companies were run by clueless idiots and staffed by fat, lazy unions members. America got too arrogant and complacent in the 20 to 30 years after WWII and we paid the price.
#28. To: jwpegler (#22)
Truman told them to shove off. Over the next three years, Truman cut government spending by 60% -- from 52% of GDP to 20% of GDP. According to g065, this should have collapsed the economy and put us into a even worse depression.
#29. To: Skip Intro (#26)
Seems about the same to me, except he's black.
#30. To: jwpegler (#22)
Truman told them to shove off. Over the next three years, Truman cut government spending by 60% -- from 52% of GDP to 20% of GDP. According to g065, this should have collapsed the economy and put us into a even worse depression.
#31. To: lucysmom, jwpegler (#28)
Truman saved this country. Not Roosevelt. Roosevelt nearly destroyed it.
The 1948-49 Vanishing of a Surplus
After the conclusion of World War II, defense spending fell dramatically. While taxes were lowered slightly, the huge fall in spending led to surpluses by 1947. By 1948, the defense demobilization was essentially complete, and the Nation ran a healthy surplus of nearly $12 billion - well over 4 percent of GDP, the biggest surplus of modern times. Yet within a year, it was all but gone. Why?
The overwhelming reason for the vanishing surplus was an increase in federal outlays of over 30 percent in a single year. Over 60 percent of the increase in spending related to national security and foreign affairs. The heating up of the Cold War after the Berlin Crisis of 1948 no doubt contributed to this. Military budgets were increased considerably, and foreign aid spending soared with the beginning of the Marshall Plan. The $9 billion spending increase dwarfed the $2.2 billion in tax reductions arising from changes in individual income taxation (e.g., the introduction of the joint return). The high wartime marginal tax rates remained. President Truman, however, blamed the 1948 tax reduction for keeping debt reduction from being greater, but the data suggest this was a distinctly secondary factor.11 Truman was pushing, often unsuccessfully, an expensive domestic spending agenda, including a national health insurance program. The near disappearance of the budget surplus, very dear to Truman's heart, was also not primarily a consequence of the relatively mild 1949 recession, which was only a factor in the last half of that fiscal year.12
1941: 19%
1942: 15.2%
1943: -1.88%
1944: 28.14%
1945: -.75
1946: - 1%
1947: - .6%
1948: 7.6%
1949: -3.7%
#32. To: go65 (#31)
he has a penchant to post B.S.
#33. To: Skip Intro (#26)
Seems about the same to me, except he's black. Is that what you mean?
#34. To: Skip Intro (#26)
Seems about the same to me, except he's black. Is that what you mean?
#35. To: go65, jwpegler (#25)
The economy was in worse shape in 1938 than it was when Roosevelt took office in January 1933.
#36. To: jwpegler (#22)
(Edited)
According to g065, this should have collapsed the economy and put us into a even worse depression.
#37. To: A K A Stone (#33)
I'm talking about his quadrupling of the debt.
#38. To: lucysmom, jwpegler (#35)
The recession in 1937 was the result of Roosevelt yielding to Republican pressure to reduce deficits, balance the budget and cut spending. (Gee whiz, where have I heard that before?)
#39. To: war (#36)
There was a nearly one year recession between 1948 and 1949 from which the economy barely recovered. During this recession, the Gross Domestic Product of the United States fell 1.7 percent. In October of 1949, the unemployment rate reached its peak for the cycle of 7.9 percent. It took an outbreak of hostilities in Korea in 1950 to REALLY work off the excess labor pool and to get industry REALLY moving again.
#40. To: go65 (#39)
#41. To: go65 (#0)
#42. To: go65 (#38)
Maybe you'll have better luck getting through to jwpegler than I.
#43. To: go65 (#38)
#44. To: A K A Stone, go65 (#43)
(Edited)
So Obama should send us all a one hundred thousand dollar check to stimulate the economy. I'm still waiting.
#45. To: A K A Stone, godwinson (#43)
(Edited)
So Obama should send us all a one hundred thousand dollar check to stimulate the economy. I'm still waiting.
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