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New World Order
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Title: Obama will go down in history as the president who lost Egypt
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio ... sident-who-lost-egypt-1.340057
Published: Jan 30, 2011
Author: Aluf Benn
Post Date: 2011-01-30 18:40:45 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 34334
Comments: 44

Jimmy Carter will go down in American history as "the president who lost Iran," which during his term went from being a major strategic ally of the United States to being the revolutionary Islamic Republic. Barack Obama will be remembered as the president who "lost" Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, and during whose tenure America's alliances in the Middle East crumbled.

The superficial circumstances are similar. In both cases, a United States in financial crisis and after failed wars loses global influence under a leftist president whose good intentions are interpreted abroad as expressions of weakness. The results are reflected in the fall of regimes that were dependent on their relationship with Washington for survival, or in a change in their orientation, as with Ankara.

America's general weakness clearly affects its friends. But unlike Carter, who preached human rights even when it hurt allies, Obama sat on the fence and exercised caution. He neither embraced despised leaders nor evangelized for political freedom, for fear of undermining stability.

Obama began his presidency with trips to Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and in speeches in Ankara and Cairo tried to forge new ties between the United States and the Muslim world. His message to Muslims was "I am one of you," and he backed it by quoting from the Koran. President Hosni Mubarak did not join him on the stage at Cairo University, and Obama did not mention his host. But he did not imitate his hated predecessor, President George W. Bush, with blunt calls for democracy and freedom.

Obama apparently believed the main problem of the Middle East was the Israeli occupation, and focused his policy on demanding the suspension of construction in the settlements and on the abortive attempt to renew the peace talks. That failure led him to back off from the peace process in favor of concentrating on heading off an Israeli-Iranian war.

Americans debated constantly the question of whether Obama cut his policy to fit the circumstances or aimed at the wrong targets. The absence of human rights issues from U.S. policy vis-a-vis Arab states drew harsh criticism; he was accused of ignoring the zeitgeist and clinging to old, rotten leaders. In the past few months many opinion pieces have appeared in the Western press asserting that the days of Mubarak's regime are numbered and calling on Obama to reach out to the opposition in Egypt. There was a sense that the U.S. foreign policy establishment was shaking off its long-term protege in Cairo, while the administration lagged behind the columnists and commentators.

The administration faced a dilemma. One can guess that Obama himself identified with the demonstrators, not the aging dictator. But a superpower isn't the civil rights movement. If it abandons its allies the moment they flounder, who would trust it tomorrow? That's why Obama rallied to Mubarak's side until Friday, when the force of the protests bested his regime.

The street revolts in Tunisia and Egypt showed that the United States can do very little to save its friends from the wrath of their citizens. Now Obama will come under fire for not getting close to the Egyptian opposition leaders soon enough and not demanding that Mubarak release his opponents from jail. He will be accused of not pushing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hard enough to stop the settlements and thus indirectly quell the rising tides of anger in the Muslim world. But that's a case of 20:20 hindsight. There's no guarantee that the Egyptian or Tunisian masses would have been willing to live in a repressive regime even if construction in Ariel was halted or a few opposition figures were released from jail.

Now Obama will try to hunker down until the winds of revolt die out, and then forge ties with the new leaders in the region. It cannot be assumed that Mubarak's successors will be clones of Iran's leaders, bent on pursuing a radical anti-American policy. Perhaps they will emulate Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who navigates among the blocs and superpowers without giving up his country's membership in NATO and its defense ties with the United States. Erdogan obtained a good deal for Turkey, which benefits from political stability and economic growth without being in anyone's pocket. It could work for Egypt, too.

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#4. To: A K A Stone (#0)

Wouldn't be the first time we lost Egypt.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-01-30   19:20:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: lucysmom (#4)

We lost Iran by the way the Shah and his secret police had been propped up by the U.S. government in general. If you read the history of foreign entanglements and the undue influence we have see the west engage in politically and socially, the backlash that happened in Iran was to be expected.

The Hostage situation did Carter in to the extent that event hurt him. And the Iranians manipulated that as much as possible by waiting until Reagan got in office.

Egypt is an explosion in progress, and until the chips fall, nobody know how this is going to hurt anyone worse than anyone else.

Though it's not surprising to see the spin start early.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-30   19:54:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Ferret Mike (#5)

We lost Iran by the way the Shah and his secret police had been propped up by the U.S. government in general. If you read the history of foreign entanglements and the undue influence we have see the west engage in politically and socially, the backlash that happened in Iran was to be expected.

First we ousted their elected Prime Minister, socialist you know, and then installed the Shah.

Ungrateful people, the Iranians.

Egypt is an explosion in progress, and until the chips fall, nobody know how this is going to hurt anyone worse than anyone else.

We don't know, but others have all the answers.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-01-30   22:25:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: lucysmom (#7)

His secret police Savak will go down in history as one of the most sadistic terror wing any dictator eve had. And we were largely silent on there activities as things played our way.

The Shah overplayed the Westernization effort too, which caused deep stress and resentment fueling the revolution there. We had a good idea before the revolution things would change, but the depth and scope of those changed surprised us greatly and caught us completely by surprise.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-30   22:35:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Ferret Mike (#8)

A K A Stone  posted on  2011-01-30   22:54:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: A K A Stone (#11)

Thanks, yeah I've seen that and it's interesting.

The U.S. has deeply influenced the governance of Iran for many decades, and so it would behoove anyone calling for a war with Iran to go back and read up on just how systemic our influence has been.

They still might support war, but if they at least gain insight as to how we are not always the good guys in everything we do there it helps when engaging in lively debate with them in forum about this topic.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-30   23:02:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Ferret Mike (#14)

Mike we were the good guys. They had it better under the Shah then they presently do. It is unfortunate he had to govern a bunch of superstitious fools.

A K A Stone  posted on  2011-01-30   23:15:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A K A Stone (#16)

"They had it better under the Shah then they presently do."

Not really. There was a great deal of torture and repression under the Shah's iron fisted rule.

I was glad to see him go, but it would of been far more useful to have gotten rid of him much earlier.

Savak:

SAVAK (Persian: National Intelligence and Security Organization) was the secret police, domestic security and intelligence service established by Iran's Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi by recommendation of the government of the United Kingdom[citation needed] and with the help of the United States' Central Intelligence Agency and Israel's Mossad. SAVAK operated from 1957 to 1979, when the Pahlavi dynasty was overthrown. SAVAK has been described as Iran's "most hated and feared institution" prior to the revolution of 1979 because of its practice of torturing and executing opponents of the Pahlavi regime.[1][2] At its peak, the organization had as many as 60,000 agents serving in its ranks according to one source,[3] although Gholam Reza Afkhami, whose work on the Shah has been described as a "sympathetic biography",[4] estimates SAVAK staffing at between 4,000 and 6,000.[5]

(snip)

A turning point in SAVAK's reputation for ruthless brutality was reportedly an attack on a gendarmerie post in the Caspian village of Siahkal by a small band of armed Marxists in February 1971, although it is also reported to have tortured to death a Shia cleric, Ayatollah Muhammad Reza Sa'idi, in 1970.[16] According to Iranian political historian Ervand Abrahamian, after this attack SAVAK interrogators were sent abroad for "scientific training to prevent unwanted deaths from 'brute force.' Brute force was supplemented with the bastinado; sleep deprivation; extensive solitary confinement; glaring searchlights; standing in one place for hours on end; nail extractions; snakes (favored for use with women); electrical shocks with cattle prods, often into the rectum; cigarette burns; sitting on hot grills; acid dripped into nostrils; near-drownings; mock executions; and an electric chair with a large metal mask to muffle screams while amplifying them for the victim. This latter contraption was dubbed the Apollo—an allusion to the American space capsules. Prisoners were also humiliated by being raped, urinated on, and forced to stand naked. [17] Despite the new 'scientific' methods, the torture of choice remained the traditional bastinado used to beat soles of the feet. The "primary goal" of those using the bastinados "was to locate arms caches, safe houses and accomplices ..." [18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-30   23:29:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Ferret Mike (#20)

You really don't believe in womens rights do you? The Shah wasn't perfect but his brutality compared to the current regime makes him look like soft little pussy. Iran could have been so much better but they took up islam and regressed about 2000 years.

A K A Stone  posted on  2011-01-30   23:34:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A K A Stone (#22)

The Shah wasn't perfect but his brutality compared to the current regime makes him look like soft little pussy.

I guess it depends on who is being brutalized.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-01-31   0:18:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: lucysmom, A K A Stone (#29)

THE VEIL

Finally, let us shed some light on what is considered in the West as the greatest symbol of women's oppression and servitude, the veil or the head cover. Is it true that there is no such thing as the veil in the Judaeo-Christian tradition? Let us set the record straight. According to Rabbi Dr. Menachem M. Brayer (Professor of Biblical Literature at Yeshiva University) in his book, The Jewish woman in Rabbinic literature, it was the custom of Jewish women to go out in public with a head covering which, sometimes, even covered the whole face leaving one eye free. 76 He quotes some famous ancient Rabbis saying," It is not like the daughters of Israel to walk out with heads uncovered" and "Cursed be the man who lets the hair of his wife be seen....a woman who exposes her hair for self-adornment brings poverty." Rabbinic law forbids the recitation of blessings or prayers in the presence of a bareheaded married woman since uncovering the woman's hair is considered "nudity".77 Dr. Brayer also mentions that "During the Tannaitic period the Jewish woman's failure to cover her head was considered an affront to her modesty. When her head was uncovered she might be fined four hundred zuzim for this offense." Dr. Brayer also explains that veil of the Jewish woman was not always considered a sign of modesty. Sometimes, the veil symbolized a state of distinction and luxury rather than modesty. The veil personified the dignity and superiority of noble women. It also represented a woman's inaccessibility as a sanctified possession of her husband. 78

The veil signified a woman's self-respect and social status. Women of lower classes would often wear the veil to give the impression of a higher standing. The fact that the veil was the sign of nobility was the reason why prostitutes were not permitted to cover their hair in the old Jewish society. However, prostitutes often wore a special headscarf in order to look respectable. 79 Jewish women in Europe continued to wear veils until the nineteenth century when their lives became more intermingled with the surrounding secular culture. The external pressures of the European life in the nineteenth century forced many of them to go out bare-headed. Some Jewish women found it more convenient to replace their traditional veil with a wig as another form of hair covering. Today, most pious Jewish women do not cover their hair except in the synagogue. 80 Some of them, such as the Hasidic sects, still use the wig. 81

What about the Christian tradition? It is well known that Catholic Nuns have been covering their heads for hundreds of years, but that is not all. St. Paul in the New Testament made some very interesting statements about the veil:

"Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonours his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonours her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head" (I Corinthians 11:3-10).

St. Paul's rationale for veiling women is that the veil represents a sign of the authority of the man, who is the image and glory of God, over the woman who was created from and for man. St. Tertullian in his famous treatise 'On The Veiling Of Virgins' wrote, "Young women, you wear your veils out on the streets, so you should wear them in the church, you wear them when you are among strangers, then wear them among your brothers..." Among the Canon laws of the Catholic church today, there is a law that requires women to cover their heads in church. 82 Some Christian denominations, such as the Amish and the Mennonites for example, keep their women veiled to the present day. The reason for the veil, as offered by their Church leaders, is that "The head covering is a symbol of woman's subjection to the man and to God", which is the same logic introduced by St. Paul in the New Testament. 83

From all the above evidence, it is obvious that Islam did not invent the head cover. However, Islam did endorse it. The Quran urges the believing men and women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty and then urges the believing women to extend their head covers to cover the neck and the bosom:

"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (24:30,31).

The Quran is quite clear that the veil is essential for modesty, but why is modesty important? The Quran is still clear:

"O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies (when abroad) so that they should be known and not molested" (33:59).

This is the whole point, modesty is prescribed to protect women from molestation or simply, modesty is protection. Thus, the only purpose of the veil in Islam is protection. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil of the Christian tradition, is not a sign of man's authority over woman nor is it a sign of woman's subjection to man. The Islamic veil, unlike the veil in the Jewish tradition, is not a sign of luxury and distinction of some noble married women. The Islamic veil is only a sign of modesty with the purpose of protecting women, all women. The Islamic philosophy is that it is always better to be safe than sorry. In fact, the Quran is so concerned with protecting women's bodies and women's reputation that a man who dares to falsely accuse a woman of unchastity will be severely punished:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations)- Flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors" (24:4)

http://www.twf.org/Library/WomenICJ.html

This is true, and in the case of the example of the veil and other visual restrictions women are made to follow there are something the above quote shows it's tradition in Christian and Jewish culture historically.

And it give citation that shows the motivations and viewpoints causing the veiling and covering in Islam is more respectful of women's rights historically in Judaism and Christianity.

It's right there in the above quote. If Stone has a rebuttal showing this historic citation as indeed inaccurate, I am more than willing to look at this and revise my viewpoint if it is wrong.

But the above text is only one source where I have seen this documentation of how the three religions historically look at women. Everything I have seen consistently supports the documentation in the above quote>

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-31   0:39:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Ferret Mike (#33)

This is true, and in the case of the example of the veil and other visual restrictions women are made to follow there are something the above quote shows it's tradition in Christian and Jewish culture historically.

Whether or not a woman wears a veil should be a matter of choice, not force.

The Shah outlawed the veil and police forcefully removed veils from the heads of women appearing in public wearing them.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-01-31   1:22:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: lucysmom (#37)

"Whether or not a woman wears a veil should be a matter of choice, not force."

Very much agree wit this. I hope that like the changes in Christianity and Judaism where mandated veils were ended, this becomes the case as Islam evolves.

"The Shah outlawed the veil and police forcefully removed veils from the heads of women appearing in public wearing them."

Exactly; and this is an example of Westernization that alienated and and alarmed people concerning accelerated Westernization of Iran in the Shah's reign.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-31   1:30:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Ferret Mike (#38)

It ain't liberation if you don't get to choose it.

lucysmom  posted on  2011-01-31   1:44:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: lucysmom (#41)

Nope, it's not. And I don't think women should be forced to wear one by any of the faiths that do or at one time required this of them.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2011-01-31   22:36:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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