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Title: Exclusive: US Empire Will Fall Due To Lack Of Faith, Not Finances Or War, Author Warns
Source:
RawStory
URL Source: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/01/ ... g-washington-author-tells-raw/
Published: Jan 27, 2011
Author: Nathan Diebenow
Post Date: 2011-01-27 12:55:52 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 126578
Comments: 176
As many in the American empire longingly talk of "recovery" from the most devastating economic condition since the Great Depression, others have begun thinking in a very different direction, urging fellow citizens to prepare for the worst. Dmitry Orlov, author of "Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects," is one of the latter. Soon, he told Raw Story in an exclusive interview, Americans will "stop expecting anything of Washington," turning the US into more of a "banana republic" than a super power. Orlov, who witnessed the Soviet Union's collapse from within, lamented that the American empire's condition is so severe there is "absolutely nothing" most can do to keep it alive or hasten its demise. "Basically the people in this country are powerless," he suggested. "So they should probably focus on things closer to home." Orlov, born in born in Leningrad (now known as Saint Petersburg), moved to the United States at age 12 and became an engineer. In his book, he detailed his experiences with the Soviet collapse on numerous visits to Russia in the late 1980s, early 1990s. He covered similarities between the two superpowers in their twilight and suggested ways for Americans to adapt to their new post-empire environment. Amid horrid unemployment and a national deficit soaring past World War II levels, Orlov theorized that the US empire would eventually collapse -- not from finances or war, but from a lack of faith in the system. It would happen over three overlapping stages, he said: financial, political and commercial. "We're fairly far along in the financial collapse trajectory while political collapse has now really only started with the last election," he said. By the next election cycle, Orlov figured, the United States would be in the throes of a "banana republic" such that the voters would exchange one inept political party for another inept political party while expecting different results. While nothing constructive would result from this behavior, he said, the next meaningless shift in 2012 may be the last straw. "That will run its course where people walk away in disgust and stop expecting anything of Washington," he said. Environmental and social catastrophe "People will lose access to various products that they need," Orlov said. Much has already collapsed in the commercial sphere. Vacant strip malls and deserted grocery stores clutter the landscape in many parts of the country. "You also have people whose only source of food is food stamps," he said. "That's becoming predominant in a lot of communities." But let's not fail to mention an overemphasis on military expenditures and unused industrial areas, Orlov insisted, describing them as mis-investments made by both empires. "To this day, the former Soviet Union is littered with abandoned or semi-abandoned industrial sites just as the United States is," he noted. By Orlov's estimation, the US military will never voluntarily quit being the world's largest oil consumer and largest polluter. Moreover, any plans suggested to the military to end its oil dependency in 30 years are an act of "desperation," he said. "They have set their hair on fire and are running around in circles. That's their drill right now," Orlov quipped. But what really seemed to rock the Soviet empire to its foundations, Orlov explained, was devastation of Russia's physical environment as a result of industrialization. The prime example was the nuclear reactor accident in Chernobyl in 1986. To this day, the site continues to produce very high levels of childhood leukemia, cancers and other diseases. "[The Chernobyl accident] caused a great number of people, including people in some positions of authority, especially in the scientific community in Russia, to seriously mistrust the government, and [they] started doing their own research, making their own observations that disquieted them even more," Orlov explained. Former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev's "glasnost" policy allowed enough truth out to undermine the remaining Soviet authority to the point where those who operated the system lost interest in perpetuating it, Orlov said. While likening the Chernobyl disaster to the Deepwater Horizon accident in the Gulf of Mexico on his blog, Orlov said that he expects no hearts of American leaders to bleed over their destroyed environment any time soon. "I don't see the elite in the United States at quite that level of desperation quite yet -- probably because they are a little bit less attuned to what's going on," he said. "They are a little bit more sheltered from the public at large. But that might change."
As the financial collapse runs its course, Orlov said, people can expect some imports to be cut off. Energy, above all cheap oil, will be the most important import to dry up. Transportation fuels will also become scarce, bringing on the next stage of social collapse: the commercial sphere, he noted.
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#39. To: Rudgear, go65 (#35)
Your solutions are fanatsy right wing kookery. I know of no nation of the industrialized world (including ones that are doing well like Germany) that does not have a central bank of some sort. I know of no nation on earth that is ahead of the USA in educational reulst who has a decentralized education system. In places where t he govt i snot involved in education you can find them in Pakistan and Somalia. I don't see how states rights will make America's wealth gap better. Last time we had issue of states rights we had a slave owning aristocracy. I am all for controlling immigration and I am against NAFTA so we can agree on that but Mexican immigration was a result of business owners who want no govt oversight - right? - wanting cheaper unregulated labor. So now that I destroyed your talking points I see you still have not refuted and in fact are still in agreement that the wealth gap is not good and in fact hurting America. That's actually a big deal because Republican politicians have been on record calling Americans lazy.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Why do you fear spreadsheets?
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
go65 provided a graph proving his point and you guys have not. You lose. Also, the information in those graphs are not biased. We did not lose as many jobs after the stimulus package - and we did lose those jobs before the stimulus package. Why do you deny this fact as a 'left wing plot'? You guys have not been able to defend any of your positions with actual facts/numbers/empirical evidence.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
We did quite well for over a 130 years without a central bank. Let the parameters of education be tested in 50 different states. The single imposed indoctrination of the left has produced one generation of illiterate fools after another for the last 50 years. Mexico is getting rid of it's undesirables by sending them north and pumping up their economy at our expense while doing so. This isn't an immigration policy; its an invasion of a hostile foreign army. You haven't refuted anything. As for politicians and laziness, Democrats and Rino's both pay able-bodied people to sit on their asses and feel sorry for themselves over the past instead of telling them to prepare for their future. Trouble is, most welfare types don't want a future you have to work for. They want a free ride.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Translation: You are an idiot. I work with spreadsheets daily. Its the info you left wingers put into them that I object to.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Stop holding up information of disrepute as definitive. You post partisan spin and demand it be taken as factual.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
LOL! It is clear to me for some time now that the right wingers engage in "truthiness" which is a "truth" that a person claims to know intuitively "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts. That is why you say stuff like "We did quite well for over a 130 years without a central bank" - a truthiness assumption - and not know of these episodes in American history: Panic / Depression of 1819 Panic / Depression of 1837 The end of the Second Bank of the United States had produced a period of runaway inflation, but in May 10, 1837 in New York City, when every bank began to accept payment only in specie (gold and silver coinage), forcing a dramatic, deflationary backlash. The Panic was followed by a five-year depression, with the failure of banks and then-record-high unemployment levels. Panic of 1873 aka Long Depression aka Great Depression of 1873–79 Panic / Depression of 1893 (Until the Great Depression, the Panic of '93 was considered the worst depression the United States had ever experienced.) Panic / Depression of 1896 Panic / Depression of 1907 Panic / Depression of 1910–1911 Great Depression 1929
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
You can't claim it to be so without your counter chart. Then the two can be compared - including sources - and we can see who is correct. You don't do that - you just dismiss it because your hand is weak.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
The effects of most of those recession/depressions were localized and had varying degrees of severity. Centralized banking has only ensured the entire nation feels the pinch equally hard. FDR multiplied the Great Depression ten fold by signing the Hawley-Smoot tariff act. He was another big centralization cheer leader.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
No. We were agrarian based in the past so no one starved to death by being poor living on a subsistence level when the economic effects were wide ranging. There was a reason people were barefoot and their clothes had patches in those old pictures you see.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
4Q GDP numbers are out today, here's more data to make Rudgear's day: Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
truthiness.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Why do you deny this fact as a 'left wing plot'? truthiness. Falling back, he relies on the old Hail Mary play: straw man!
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
LOL. Yeah, quite predictable. Like the old Loony Tunes I used to watch, when I was a kid... at the end of every episode, the final shot was "that's all, folks!" As soon as go56 wheels out the straw man, that image goes through my head... 'Cause it means he's trapped and desperate. You keep holding their feet to the fire, and pushing the lies right back on 'em, and they'll bozo you too... They do NOT like someone who stays on-track, and uses facts. Drives 'em NUTS.
"There will be no more money when the U.S. dollar has no value, until that time we can keep printing more." -- go65, LF's answer to Ben Bernanke --
They're already nuts.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
We all know your head is empty, Eric. "Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Yours isn't. It's full of DNC talking points, Marxist dogma and outright lies.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Not really. Thanks for trying to think though.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
You're funny. Now vanish.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Hmmm, so you are saying that unemployment was lower under Clinton, even though tax rates were higher? Wow, I never thought I'd see you accept the fact that there's an inverse correlation between tax rates and unemployment.
Since January 3, 2011, Republicans have controlled the power of the purse.
Hmmmmm. Nothing on the graph about Clinton. Project much?
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
You are either a totalitarian propagandist or a blithering idiot. In either case, no one should pay any attention to you.
HERE'S what you're looking for.... Reality is in blue, government propaganda is in red. Of course, go56 will either ignore it or attack it with invective, but he most certainly will not be able to refute it, without resorting to the propaganda...
"There will be no more money when the U.S. dollar has no value, until that time we can keep printing more." -- go65, LF's answer to Ben Bernanke --
Thanks. Posting info contrary to the party line of Godwinson and go65 will generate 50 or 60 spam posts. I drove go65 off the board earlier when h tried to push a global warming scam article from CU. I pointed out that it was embroiled in the Ward Churchill scandal. Never heard back. That and he's aping the 'peer reviewed' and 'do you have a PhD' talking points from Godwinson. He couldn't comment on peer reviewed product from Ward Churchill's place of business.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Why do you assume I support the lies the American govt tells you - Dems and Repubs? It is you defending the policies of the last govt in power - the Bush one - where clearly your own figures show a disaster. Also, you should ping the person you are talking about - how will we see the chart to comment on it? I am against outsourcing - I think it proves the American business community are traitors who sell out their own people for a buck made in China. It is my assumption you 2 eric and rud who were defending the business community, the richers, who raped this nation blind so they could make a buck. It is you who called the unemployed lazy and blamed them for their own condition and lack of wealth. It is you who are defending the fact that 1% of the American population controls 4/5th of the wealth in this country while the rest live off the 1/5th crumbs the rick piss down - excuse me - trickle down to the rest. It is you who allow this condition by allowing the GOP to play dog whistle politics so they can get you guys riled up by flag burning or black rappers or whatever angers Archie Bunker types to support the GOP so that when in power the GOP carries out more wealth transfers to the 1%. I am not excusing the Dems - they carried water for the Wall Street bankers under Obama - but seeing that - having you types call Obama a "Commie" is laughable. It shows me that as bad as the two party frauds are you GOP types are worse because you are delusional like that. At least the progressives in the Democratic party know Obama betrayed them. That shows me progressives have a handle on reality. What is your excuse? Thanks for proving through your unemployment chart that America's post Reagan - anti govt oversight - anti govt regulation of businesses along with their union busting caused a massive bloodletting in American jobs that saw a decline in the wealth of 99% of the population who were suckered into buying the trickle down fraud. You want to have a conversation based on exchange of views without resorting to your ad homonym attacks? Let's go then. Let me see you defend this failed ideology with facts.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#1. 59 to go.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
It is you who are defending the Bush years. The Obama years were after the fact of the Bush collapse. In that regard the Bush collapse had roots earlier in the deregulation ethos that took hold in the 80s under Reagan and I think also under Carter. I even can say this goes back to Nixon when our economy was in such trouble we needed price controls. The solution taken was to blame the New Deal because the claim was the New Deal was putting a brake on stuff so slowly the dimanteled the system starting in earnest under Reagan through to Bush - Clinton - Bush. Instead of following an established 'social market (which is not socialist) which was successful in Europe we went the direction of unregulated capitalism and we collapsed. That's the crux of the argument I present. The rest is you guys trying to defend your tribal corners.....
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
#2. I do not defend the Bush years. I try (foolishly) to get you to see your Democrats are the same, if not worse. I told you before, when you wake to the fact both parties are the same, then you will have achieved wisdom. Bring on the other 58.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
The neocon Republicans have let you down so you handle your disappointment by painting everyone with a broad brush?
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
I'm not a neocon. Now who's painting with a broad brush?
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Conservatives ain't what they used to be before neocons infiltrated their ranks.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson
Do you just argue to argue?
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
You suck at what you're attempting to do.
And the sheep will bleat their submission, Burma Shave.
Do you just argue to argue? All shills do.
And the sheep will bleat their submission, Burma Shave.
I am not a Democrat. The fact your clique keeps seeing this as a Democrat vs Republican to me shows your world view is influenced by talk show radio to the point you can't imagine a political ideology different from either or a little of this or that.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
Oh, just shut up already. You give me a headache.
Well, [war's] got to do something for attention, his multiple personalities aren't speaking to him any more, and his imaginary friends keep finding excuses not to come over.
Rewarding.
"Keep Your Goddamn Government Hands Off My Medicare!" - Various Tea Party signs.
They are blinded by their consensus-based decision-making process. It doesn't matter if they're right or wrong. All they care about is that THEY think they're right... AKA "group-think." If you want a good example of group-think, simply look at the shuttle Challenger disaster... They're after that sort of thing, on a global scale.
"There will be no more money when the U.S. dollar has no value, until that time we can keep printing more." -- go65, LF's answer to Ben Bernanke --
From a post to Eskimo: It's like that PC-version of mathematics they were teaching in the grade schools for years, called "New-New Math." [If you google it, you'll find plenty to make your blood boil...] Anyway, New-New Math has a simple premise: it doesn't matter if you get the right answer, as long as you feel GOOD about it... ... They [leftists] exhibit the incongruent characteristics of in-your-face elitism, with a shocking level of ignorance. They really don't give a shit about the truth, they don't care about facts, and they aren't interested in learning, because THEY believe they know enough to judge on any subject, at any time. And once they've made their conclusions- even if they're shockingly flawed- they refuse to change... they don't want to take the chance of being embarrassed or sad, because they got the wrong answer. So they'll *stick* with the wrong answer, and feel GOOD about it... It gives them a feeling of smugness and self-righteously complacency. So when go56 or godwinson or ... whomever... gets on, and starts pushing the leftist agenda, they will not back down, no matter how wrong they may be. Stubbornly clinging to fantasy, so that they can feel GOOD about themselves, is all they care about, no matter how delusional their statements may be. The only tactic that works with them, is to be shouted down. If they cannot keep restating their flawed position, if they're attacked every time they lie, if they exposed for the pschological misfits that they truly are, they will eventually skulk away, because being attacked constantly deprives them of their offensive self-satisfaction. That is why they use this tactic on others (shouting people down), because it works on THEM. You ever listen to a radio talk-show, when a leftist calls in? You notice how they keep talking, NEVER stop, even when they're trapped into a corner, and can't get out...? They think that being aggressive in their arguments (even if the arguments are patently false), pure bravado will win the day for them... [In the same way, they foolishly believe such tactics will work here, and that's why choose to attack anyone whose factual data refutes their position. When that tactic fails, they will then resort to the bozo filter (if you've not done so already), and then start bitching at other forums about US, at this forum... Because we're not responding as THEY would respond. There are two main philosophies in the area of qualitative research: Positivists generally assume that reality is objectively given and can be described by measurable properties which are independent of the observer. Interpretive researchers start out with the assumption that access to reality (given or socially constructed) is only through social constructions such as language, consciousness and shared meanings. I'm most definitely in the positivist segment, while the leftists gravitate to the "interpretivist" camp, because they believe that a shared consensus of perceived reality- even if radically different from observable, measureable reality- is equally valid. I am working on my doctorate- and dealing with a LOT of the "interpretivist" crowd. And honestly, I'm so SICK of their consensus- driven horse-shit...
"There will be no more money when the U.S. dollar has no value, until that time we can keep printing more." -- go65, LF's answer to Ben Bernanke --
Actually I think he/she is rather good at it and it is really pissing you off. {{{chuckle}}}
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestSolutions include getting rid of the Federal Reserve, securing the border with Mexico, simplifying the tax code, taking government out of education and turning back to the states. That's how much of a water carrier of oligarchs I am. You don't know me. You lash out because you keep getting your head handed to you,
#40. To: Rudgear, go65 (#36)
Translation:
#41. To: Rudgear, Capitalist Eric, go65 (#38)
I love how they defeat their own argument with every post they make.
#42. To: Godwinson (#39)
(Edited)
#43. To: Godwinson (#40)
#44. To: Godwinson (#41)
#45. To: Rudgear, go65 (#42)
We did quite well for over a 130 years without a central bank.
#46. To: Rudgear, go65 (#44)
Stop holding up information of disrepute as definitive. You post partisan spin and demand it be taken as factual.
#47. To: Godwinson (#45)
#48. To: Rudgear (#47)
(Edited)
The effects of most of those recession/depressions were localized and had varying degrees of severity.
#49. To: Godwinson, Rudgear (#46)
#50. To: Godwinson, rudgear (#41)
Why do you deny this fact as a 'left wing plot'?
#51. To: go65 (#49)
#52. To: go65 (#50)
To: Godwinson, rudgear
#53. To: Rudgear (#52)
Falling back, he relies on the old Hail Mary play: straw man!
#54. To: Capitalist Eric, Godwinson (#53)
Drives 'em NUTS.
#55. To: Capitalist Eric, Rudgear (#53)
that image goes through my head..
#56. To: Godwinson (#55)
#57. To: Rudgear (#56)
Yours isn't. It's full of DNC talking points, Marxist dogma and outright lies.
#58. To: Godwinson (#57)
#59. To: Rudgear (#51)
Lets look at unemployment in the Hussein years:
#60. To: go65 (#59)
#61. To: Godwinson (#13)
America very USSR
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. -- Winston Churchill
#62. To: Rudgear (#60)
#63. To: Capitalist Eric (#62)
#64. To: Rudgear, Capitalist Eric, go65, lucysmom, sneakypete, Ferret Mike, Fred Mertz, A Pole, Abu el Banat, Brian S (#63)
Thanks. Posting info contrary to the party line of Godwinson and go65 will generate 50 or 60 spam posts.
#65. To: Godwinson (#64)
#66. To: Rudgear, Capitalist Eric, go65, lucysmom, sneakypete, Ferret Mike, Fred Mertz, A Pole, Abu el Banat, Brian S (#65)
(Edited)
#67. To: Godwinson (#66)
#68. To: Rudgear (#67)
I try (foolishly) to get you to see your Democrats are the same, if not worse.
#69. To: lucysmom (#68)
#70. To: Rudgear (#69)
I'm not a neocon.
#71. To: lucysmom (#70)
#72. To: Godwinson (#66)
Seeing the others as fools,
Not knowing nor even caring,
They've become no more than tools.
#73. To: Rudgear (#71)
To: lucysmom
Seeing the others as fools,
Not knowing nor even caring,
They've become no more than tools.
#74. To: Rudgear, Lucysmom (#67)
#2. I do not defend the Bush years. I try (foolishly) to get you to see your Democrats are the same,
#75. To: Godwinson (#74)
Blah blah blah blah blah blah . . .
#76. To: Rudgear (#75)
Oh, just shut up already. You give me a headache.
#77. To: Rudgear (#67)
I do not defend the Bush years. I try (foolishly) to get you to see your Democrats are the same, if not worse.
#78. To: Rudgear (#75)
#79. To: Wood_Chopper, Godwinson (#72)
You suck at what you're attempting to do.
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