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Title: Falling Into the Chasm
Source: NY Times
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/25/opinion/25krugman.html?_r=1
Published: Oct 25, 2010
Author: Paul Krugman
Post Date: 2010-10-25 09:11:36 by go65
Keywords: None
Views: 6273
Comments: 34

This is what happens when you need to leap over an economic chasm — but either can’t or won’t jump far enough, so that you only get part of the way across.

If Democrats do as badly as expected in next week’s elections, pundits will rush to interpret the results as a referendum on ideology. President Obama moved too far to the left, most will say, even though his actual program — a health care plan very similar to past Republican proposals, a fiscal stimulus that consisted mainly of tax cuts, help for the unemployed and aid to hard-pressed states — was more conservative than his election platform.

A few commentators will point out, with much more justice, that Mr. Obama never made a full-throated case for progressive policies, that he consistently stepped on his own message, that he was so worried about making bankers nervous that he ended up ceding populist anger to the right.

But the truth is that if the economic situation were better — if unemployment had fallen substantially over the past year — we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We would, instead, be talking about modest Democratic losses, no more than is usual in midterm elections.

The real story of this election, then, is that of an economic policy that failed to deliver. Why? Because it was greatly inadequate to the task.

When Mr. Obama took office, he inherited an economy in dire straits — more dire, it seems, than he or his top economic advisers realized. They knew that America was in the midst of a severe financial crisis. But they don’t seem to have taken on board the lesson of history, which is that major financial crises are normally followed by a protracted period of very high unemployment.

If you look back now at the economic forecast originally used to justify the Obama economic plan, what’s striking is that forecast’s optimism about the economy’s ability to heal itself. Even without their plan, Obama economists predicted, the unemployment rate would peak at 9 percent, then fall rapidly. Fiscal stimulus was needed only to mitigate the worst — as an “insurance package against catastrophic failure,” as Lawrence Summers, later the administration’s top economist, reportedly said in a memo to the president-elect.

But economies that have experienced a severe financial crisis generally don’t heal quickly. From the Panic of 1893, to the Swedish crisis of 1992, to Japan’s lost decade, financial crises have consistently been followed by long periods of economic distress. And that has been true even when, as in the case of Sweden, the government moved quickly and decisively to fix the banking system.

To avoid this fate, America needed a much stronger program than what it actually got — a modest rise in federal spending that was barely enough to offset cutbacks at the state and local level. This isn’t 20- 20 hindsight: the inadequacy of the stimulus was obvious from the beginning.

Could the administration have gotten a bigger stimulus through Congress? Even if it couldn’t, would it have been better off making the case for a bigger plan, rather than pretending that what it got was just right? We’ll never know.

What we do know is that the inadequacy of the stimulus has been a political catastrophe. Yes, things are better than they would have been without the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act: the unemployment rate would probably be close to 12 percent right now if the administration hadn’t passed its plan. But voters respond to facts, not counterfactuals, and the perception is that the administration’s policies have failed.

The tragedy here is that if voters do turn on Democrats, they will in effect be voting to make things even worse.

The resurgent Republicans have learned nothing from the economic crisis, except that doing everything they can to undermine Mr. Obama is a winning political strategy. Tax cuts and deregulation are still the alpha and omega of their economic vision.

And if they take one or both houses of Congress, complete policy paralysis — which will mean, among other things, a cutoff of desperately needed aid to the unemployed and a freeze on further help for state and local governments — is a given. The only question is whether we’ll have political chaos as well, with Republicans’ shutting down the government at some point over the next two years. And the odds are that we will.

Is there any hope for a better outcome? Maybe, just maybe, voters will have second thoughts about handing power back to the people who got us into this mess, and a weaker-than-expected Republican showing at the polls will give Mr. Obama a second chance to turn the economy around.

But right now it looks as if the too-cautious attempt to jump across that economic chasm has fallen short — and we’re about to hit rock bottom.

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#1. To: jwpegler, skip intro, fred mertz, brian s, lucysmom, meguro (#0)

thought you guys would enjoy this.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   9:12:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: go65 (#0)

a fiscal stimulus that consisted mainly of tax cuts

Flat out lie. It consisted mostly of borrowing money/debt.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:13:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: go65 (#0)

But the truth is that if the economic situation were better — if unemployment had fallen substantially over the past year — we wouldn’t be having this discussion. We would, instead, be talking about modest Democratic losses, no more than is usual in midterm elections.

That isn't the truth. That is wishful thinking.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:14:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: go65 (#0)

What we do know is that the inadequacy of the stimulus has been a political catastrophe. Yes, things are better than they would have been without the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act: the unemployment rate would probably be close to 12 percent right now if the administration hadn’t passed its plan. But voters respond to facts, not counterfactuals, and the perception is that the administration’s policies have failed.

Another lie. This guy is full of shit.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: go65 (#1)

Will someone please shut Krugman up

http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=14318

Obama's first all-by-his-lonesome budget, btw, calls for a $1.17 trillion deficit.

Badeye  posted on  2010-10-25   9:23:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: go65 (#0)

The tragedy here is that if voters do turn on Democrats, they will in effect be voting to make things even worse.

That's my fear too.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-10-25   9:47:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#2)

Flat out lie. It consisted mostly of borrowing money/debt.

to pay for tax cuts and aid to the states.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   9:48:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Fred Mertz (#6)

Does that mean you are not voting for Rand Paul? You make no sense. Nothing is worse then baby killing democrats.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:49:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: A K A Stone (#4)

What we do know is that the inadequacy of the stimulus has been a political catastrophe. Yes, things are better than they would have been without the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act: the unemployment rate would probably be close to 12 percent right now if the administration hadn’t passed its plan. But voters respond to facts, not counterfactuals, and the perception is that the administration’s policies have failed.

what part of that is a lie? Most economists agree that unemployment would have been much worse without the stimulus.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   9:49:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: go65 (#7)

You don't borrow money to pay for tax cuts. You just don't tax.

There was much more borrowing then the piddly tax cuts.

Are you saying there was half a trillion in tax cuts? Or I should say is that what the author of the article is lying about?

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: go65 (#9)

what part of that is a lie?

things are better than they would have been without the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:

That is an opinion, and a wrong one. More debt doesn't make us better off. The money was wasted and didn't do squat.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:52:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: A K A Stone (#11) (Edited)

things are better than they would have been without the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act:

Most economists believe that to be true, even Republican ones.

---- Federal Reserve vice chairman Alan Blinder and Moody's Analytics chief economist Mark Zandi:

The U.S. government's response to the financial crisis and ensuing Great Recession included some of the most aggressive fiscal and monetary policies in history. The response was multifaceted and bipartisan, involving the Federal Reserve, Congress, and two administrations. Yet almost every one of these policy initiatives remain controversial to this day, with critics calling them misguided, ineffective or both. The debate over these policies is crucial because, with the economy still weak, more government support may be needed, as seen recently in both the extension of unemployment benefits and the Fed's consideration of further easing.

In this paper, we use the Moody's Analytics model of the U.S. economy -- adjusted to accommodate some recent financial-market policies -- to simulate the macroeconomic effects of the government's total policy response. We find that its effects on real GDP, jobs, and inflation are huge, and probably averted what could have been called Great Depression 2.0. For example, we estimate that, without the government's response, GDP in 2010 would be about 11.5% lower, payroll employment would be less by some 8½ million jobs, and the nation would now be experiencing deflation.

That's based on both TARP and the ARRA.

Even the President of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce agrees:

"While the stimulus has not created as many jobs as was hoped for, Donohue said, 'Would I do it again at the same time? Hell yes.' " Tom Donahue, President, U.S. Chamber of Commerce

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20010572-503544.html


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   9:56:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: go65 (#12)

I don't know that the majority agree or not. Regardless it is still opinion and not fact.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   9:57:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: A K A Stone (#13)

I don't know that the majority agree or not. Regardless it is still opinion and not fact.

Sure, and the opinion of most economists is that unemployment would be much higher without the ARRA.

Alas, starting on January 3rd we'll have the opportunity to see what GOP policies can do to spur jobs and eliminate the deficit.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   9:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: go65 (#14)

If they want to win in 2012 they better do something about it. I think that they will do a little but not a lot. Not enough tea partiers in the Republican ranks.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   10:02:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: A K A Stone (#15)

If they want to win in 2012 they better do something about it. I think that they will do a little but not a lot. Not enough tea partiers in the Republican ranks.

The fundamental problem is that cutting spending in a slow economic period will increase unemployment and reduce economic activity. See recent examples in Ireland, the Baltics, and the U.S. in 1937.

So they have put themselves in a catch-22. Either cut spending or cut unemployment. You can't do both.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   10:04:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: go65 (#0)

the inadequacy of the stimulus was obvious from the beginning.

The "stimulus" was both too large and focused incorrectly.

A more modest proposal, with a 100% focus on rebuilding our aging infrastructure would have had a larger positive impact on the economy and jobs.

Sure, there we some infrastructure projects in Obama's "stimulus", but they were a tiny component of the overall spending. Most of the money was targeted at "saving" the jobs of government paper pushers for one year. Of course that is not going to "stimulate" anything.


"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson

jwpegler  posted on  2010-10-25   10:10:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: go65 (#16)

The fundamental problem is that cutting spending in a slow economic period will increase unemployment and reduce economic activity. See recent examples in Ireland, the Baltics, and the U.S. in 1937.

So they have put themselves in a catch-22. Either cut spending or cut unemployment. You can't do both.

Cancel the foreign debt. It is immoral and the upcoming generation doesn't deserve or owe this debt. It is the debt of old and dead people.

I disagree with you on your point too. They need to cut spending, Cut taxes. Pass a bill that says those who voted for this outrageous spending are the ones who owe it, not the American people. Throw out the bums and make them pay back the trillions. They owe it not my kids.

Or they could print a bunch of blue money up and pay the foreigners off with that money. That money would be tagged to the payee. That money would only be valid if it was invested back in the United States.

We need to really shake things up so that our kids can have a better future then 80 percent tax rate and communism.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   10:10:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: go65 (#0)

Is there any hope for a better outcome? Maybe, just maybe, voters will have second thoughts about handing power back to the people who got us into this mess, and a weaker-than-expected Republican showing at the polls will give Mr. Obama a second chance to turn the economy around.

The gov't's mouthpiece does not act in good faith.

O's a political hack. You are serfs.

G Carlin-'It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.'

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   10:28:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: mcgowanjm (#19)

G Carlin-'It's called the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.'

George was very good may he RIP...

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-10-25   10:32:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Fred Mertz (#20)

George was very good may he RIP...

8D

"It's a Big Club, and you and me aren't in it."

8D

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   10:33:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Fred Mertz (#20)

Carlin was a hypocritical bullshit artist.

Obama's first all-by-his-lonesome budget, btw, calls for a $1.17 trillion deficit.

Badeye  posted on  2010-10-25   10:40:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: go65 (#0)

No federal stimulus spending spree has ever worked.

Not once. Its a fools errand.

Obama's first all-by-his-lonesome budget, btw, calls for a $1.17 trillion deficit.

Badeye  posted on  2010-10-25   10:41:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Badeye (#23)

No federal stimulus spending spree has ever worked.

That's simply not true. Heck, even conservatives argue that WWII ended the depression once and for all.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   10:48:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Fred Mertz (#20)

I love this. Here's Empathy at work.

It takes a Very Certain MindSet to critcize G Carlin, THE guy that makes J Stewart's Daily Show look anemic,

AND declare that WikiLeaks is an AgitProp Exercise at the same time.

ZioFundy's, Top 50 000, Communism for the Rich, Free Markets for the Poor, Slave Owner comes to mind.

Just when did wealth become part of the 'Jesus Schtick'.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   10:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: go65 (#24)

No federal stimulus spending spree has ever worked.

That's simply not true. Heck, even conservatives argue that WWII ended the depression once and for all.

8D EXACTLY

Like I said, Communism for the Rich, Free Markets for the Poor.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   10:52:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: All (#26)

Assange himself via Volatility:

" This information has reform potential. And the information which is concealed or suppressed is concealed or suppressed because the people who know it best understand that it has the ability to reform. So they engage in work to prevent that reform . . . .

There are reasons I do it that have to do with wanting to reform civilization, and selectively targeting information will do that — understanding that quality information is what every decision is based on, and all the decisions taken together is what “civilization” is, so if you want to improve civilization, you have to remove some of the basic constraints, which is the quality of information that civilization has at its disposal to make decisions. Of course, there’s a personal psychology to it, that I enjoy crushing bastards, I like a good challenge, so do a lot of the other people involved in WikiLeaks. We like the challenge."

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   10:57:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: All (#27)

The secretiveness stems from the belief that a populist intelligence operation with virtually no resources, designed to publicize information that powerful institutions do not want public, will have serious adversaries……

Assange also wanted to insure that, once the video was posted online, it would be impossible to remove. He told me that WikiLeaks maintains its content on more than twenty servers around the world and on hundreds of domain names. (Expenses are paid by donations, and a few independent well-wishers also run “mirror sites” in support.) Assange calls the site “an uncensorable system for untraceable mass document leaking and public analysis,” and a government or company that wanted to remove content from WikiLeaks would have to practically dismantle the Internet itself……..

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   11:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A K A Stone (#18)

Cancel the foreign debt. It is immoral and the upcoming generation doesn't deserve or owe this debt. It is the debt of old and dead people.

Have you looked at what happened to Argentina when they defaulted on their debt?


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   11:01:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: go65 (#29)

Do you see what is happeing to America when we are paying this fake manufactured debt?

So other countries wont want to do business with us. That means more American jobs.

It is impossible to ever pay off the debt. We should quit pretending and cancel it. Like I said my kids have no moral or legal obligation to pay taxes for debt that they had nothing whatsoever to do with. We have an illegal govt that illegally gave us this fiction of debt. Screw them, hang them give them trials and execute them.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-25   11:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: All (#28)

And speaking of bringing Sun to the Land of Darkness (Since JFK's Assassination:

How about a List of Items that are deemed 'Not NewsWorthy by LF(not necessarily picking on LF, which is after all a Step above the MSM;}.

1 Banks

2 Mortgages

3 Health Insurance Rackets

4 Internet Access and Participation

5 Food

6 Gulf Oil Ecocide

The fact that such an array of criminals has assembled against Wikileaks is a metric of its effectiveness, and even more, of its perceived threat, and a badge of honor. We can expect every kind of tactic to be deployed against Assange and the rest of the team, but the aspirations of the organization and the task may just withstand the onslaught. It’ll help if more people and organizations follow on this path.

We who reject the existence of the “elites” also reject their nonexistent right to keep secrets. Every leak against the will of the elites is a restitution of stolen property. Wikileaks is in fact an agent of law and order, and its people are part of the human citizenry.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-10-25   11:11:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Do you see what is happeing to America when we are paying this fake manufactured debt?

So other countries wont want to do business with us. That means more American jobs.

It is impossible to ever pay off the debt. We should quit pretending and cancel it. Like I said my kids have no moral or legal obligation to pay taxes for debt that they had nothing whatsoever to do with. We have an illegal govt that illegally gave us this fiction of debt. Screw them, hang them give them trials and execute them.

I separate short-term from long term, short-term trying to cut our deficit would be counter-productive. As we've seen in numerous countries that have implemented austerity in recent years, cutting spending now results in lower economic activity, more unemployment, and no real change in the deficit (tax revenues fall to offset any cuts in spending).

Long term I agree that we need to tackle our structural deficit, which means addressing social security, medicare, and the like.

Again, the problem with defaulting on the debt is the chaos it would cause as our currency becomes worthless.


On January 3, 2011 the GOP assumes responsibility for deficit spending.

go65  posted on  2010-10-25   11:12:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: go65 (#24)

No federal stimulus spending spree has ever worked. That's simply not true. Heck, even conservatives argue that WWII ended the depression once and for all.

Only somebody insane would assert World War Two was a 'stimulus package'.

Obama's first all-by-his-lonesome budget, btw, calls for a $1.17 trillion deficit.

Badeye  posted on  2010-10-25   11:19:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: A K A Stone (#10)

You just don't tax.

And that reduces income.

The Bush administration never promised to balance the budget after their tax cuts, only to reduce the budget deficit over time.

Republicans seemed to be A-Okay with Bush's spend and borrow policy 'cause, you know, they know how to better manage their money than the government does (a non sequitur).

Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains. Thomas Jefferson

lucysmom  posted on  2010-10-25   12:37:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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