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Diddy, TVA Scandal, and Joel Osteen | SRS #232 Status: Not Logged In; Sign In U.S. Constitution See other U.S. Constitution Articles Title: Christine O'Donnell Asks Where Constitution Calls For Separation Of Church, State Source: Associated Press URL Source: http://www.bnd.com/2010/10/19/14432 ... nell-questions-separation.html Published: Oct 19, 2010 Author: Associated Press Post Date: 2010-10-19 11:29:00 by Brian S Keywords: None Views: 207689 Comments: 236 WASHINGTON -- Republican Senate nominee Christine O'Donnell of Delaware is questioning whether the U.S. Constitution prohibits the government from establishing religion. In a debate at Widener University Law School, O'Donnell criticized Democratic nominee Chris Coons' position that teaching creationism in public school would violate the First Amendment by promoting religious doctrine. O'Donnell asked where the Constitution calls for the separation of church and state. When Coons responded that the First Amendment bars Congress from making laws respecting the establishment of religion, O'Donnell asked: "You're telling me that's in the First Amendment?" Delaware Senate The exchange Tuesday aired on radio station WDEL generated a buzz among law professors and students in the audience. Subscribe to *Tea Party On Parade* Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Comments (1-182) not displayed.       .       .       . #183. To: Rhino (#176) If anyone wants to know what that sound is, it's AKAStone realizing he in fact doesn't know everything. What you quoted from was a letter. It isn't the constitution for starters. If we are adding letters of Thomas Jefferson to the constitution how about this one "Then I say, the earth belongs to each of these generations during its course, fully and in its own right. The second generation receives it clear of the debts and incumbrances of the first, the third of the second, and so on. For if the first could charge it with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not to the living generation. Then, no generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of its own existence." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393 That is part of the constitution too because Jefferson was great and all his writings are part of the constitution right? A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:48:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #184. To: WhiteSands (#179) A letter not a law. If you argue Constitutional Law based on Jefferson's personal life, then you could argue slavery is good. The first amendment is law however. And it does separate church and state. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #185. To: Rhino (#182) There is no separation of church and state. Go back and read the constitution. The FACT is that there is only a prohibition on CONGRESS!!!! A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:50:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #186. To: Rhino (#182) No I was being facetious No problem. Got it. I rarely use the sarc tag too. ----------------------------------------------------------- Liberals: -Pro nuclear proliferation. -Support fundamentalist religion that execute gays. -Have no issues with inmate abuse. -In discussions to release J.Pollard. WhiteSands  posted on  2010-10-20   18:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #187. To: Rhino (#184) The first amendment is law however. And it does separate church and state. No it doesn't. Quote the constitution accurately and I will agree with you. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:50:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #188. To: A K A Stone (#183) What you quoted from was a letter. It isn't the constitution for starters. If we are adding letters of Thomas Jefferson to the constitution how about this one "Then I say, the earth belongs to each of these generations during its course, fully and in its own right. The second generation receives it clear of the debts and incumbrances of the first, the third of the second, and so on. For if the first could charge it with a debt, then the earth would belong to the dead and not to the living generation. Then, no generation can contract debts greater than may be paid during the course of its own existence." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:455, Papers 15:393 That is part of the constitution too because Jefferson was great and all his writings are part of the constitution right? Did you read what I wrote? Obviously not. I was showing you that letter to show that the Separation of Church and State is just a term to describe the first amendment. Not some godless liberal conspiracy you cooked up. Thomas Jefferson's own words. Jefferson, the Supreme Court, and an objective reading of the Constitution aren't trumped by Christine O'Donnell. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #189. To: A K A Stone (#187) No it doesn't. Quote the constitution accurately and I will agree with you. Jefferson says it better than I. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:51:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #190. To: Rhino (#184) The first amendment essentially guarantees the right to religious freedom without any interference from the federal govt. Its purpose is to protect the churches, not the govt. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   18:52:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #191. To: A K A Stone (#185) There is no separation of church and state. Go back and read the constitution. The FACT is that there is only a prohibition on CONGRESS!!!! See the fourteenth amendment and related case law. The Bill of Rights applies to the states. Which is why gun bans are now illegal Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:52:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #192. To: no gnu taxes (#190) The first amendment essentially guarantees the right to religious freedom without any interference from the federal govt. Its purpose is to protect the churches, not the govt. It also prevents the establishment of a religion. And yes the point is to protect all religions. Which is why the government can't teach any. Because teaching one is teaching against all the rest. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #193. To: Rhino (#188) Did you read what I wrote? Obviously not. I was showing you that letter to show that the Separation of Church and State is just a term to describe the first amendment. Yawn that is old news. Jefferson meant well. But liberals try to use those words to change the meaning of the constitution. There is no constitutional separation of church and state. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #194. To: Rhino (#192) And yes the point is to protect all religions. Which is why the government can't teach any. Because teaching one is teaching against all the rest. Incorrect. The prohibition is on Congress only. Not state or local govts. That is the true meaning of the words in the first amendment. Come on be honest and admit it and quit spinning. You will be ok. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:55:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #195. To: no gnu taxes (#180) The 14th Amendment did not repeal the 10th Amendment. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The 14th amendment makes the Bill of Rights apply to the states by the Constitution. That is perfectly in line with the bolded part of the tenth. The states are now prohibited from infringing our rights. Those powers are prohibited by the Constitution (14th amendment). Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:56:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #196. To: Rhino (#191) The 14th wasn't ratified properly and is not really part of the constitution. If it was real it would be more like the 15th amendment as the evil government got rid of the real 13th amendment. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:57:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #197. To: Rhino (#192) It also prevents the establishment of a religion. By CONGRESS. Religions are established all the time. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   18:57:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #198. To: A K A Stone (#194) Incorrect. The prohibition is on Congress only. Not state or local govts. That is the true meaning of the words in the first amendment. Come on be honest and admit it and quit spinning. You will be ok. Until the passage of the 14th Amendment, absolutely. However most states have the first amendment in their constitutions as well. It would take amending their constitutions to remove them. However after the 14th amendment, the Bill of Rights applies to all levels of governments. To make a long story short, we fought this war, your side lost, and we made the 14th amendment. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:58:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #199. To: A K A Stone (#196) The 14th wasn't ratified properly and is not really part of the constitution. If it was real it would be more like the 15th amendment as the evil government got rid of the real 13th amendment. Well this is a conspiracy theory. I don't know what you want me to do with that. The 14th amendment is considered valid by every court in America. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:59:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #200. To: A K A Stone (#193) Yawn that is old news. Jefferson meant well. But liberals try to use those words to change the meaning of the constitution. There is no constitutional separation of church and state. I'll take Jefferson and the US Supreme court over Christine ODonnell and AKASTONE any day. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   18:59:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #201. To: Rhino (#199) The 14th amendment freed the slaves. That is the real 14th amendment. The 13th god rid of titles of nobility and honors. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   18:59:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #202. To: Rhino (#195) The 14th amendment makes the Bill of Rights apply to the states by the Constitution. That is perfectly in line with the bolded part of the tenth. You are just repeating yourself. Here is the 14th Amendment: http://www.14thamendment.us/amendment/14th_amendment.html Cut and paste the WORDS whick make you think the Federal Govt now has the authority to involve itself in local religious practices. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:00:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #203. To: Rhino (#200) The supreme court that says it is ok to murder babies. Ok you stick with the baby murderers. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   19:00:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #204. To: no gnu taxes (#197) By CONGRESS. Religions are established all the time. Establishment of a state religion. Are you this bankrupt of historical knowledge? We can't debate this if you don't even speak the language. P.S. the 14th amendment makes the states follow the Bill of Rights. Either way, every single US state has the first amendment in it's own Constitution now. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:01:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #205. To: no gnu taxes (#202) Cut and paste the WORDS whick make you think the Federal Govt now has the authority to involve itself in local religious practices. I don't think the federal govt has the authority to involve itself in local religious practices. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   19:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #206. To: no gnu taxes (#202) Cut and paste the WORDS whick make you think the Federal Govt now has the authority to involve itself in local religious practices. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:02:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #207. To: A K A Stone (#205) I don't think the federal govt has the authority to involve itself in local religious practices. It doesn't. But neither does your local government. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:02:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #208. To: Rhino (#199) Well this is a conspiracy theory. I don't know what you want me to do with that. The 14th amendment is considered valid by every court in America. It is no conspiracy theory. The South was denied their equal sufferage in the Senate. They were already admitted into the union and passed the 13th (really the 14th) which outlawed slavery or involuntary servitude. So they were already back in the union with good standing. They refused the 14th (really the 15th) and then the feds put in the puppets under the gun. It is not valid. It is dishonest. It is not true to our constitution. It is color of law "legal" not lawful and that is the honest truth. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   19:05:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #209. To: Rhino (#206) No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. So if States arbitrarily refuse schools the tight to teach creationist philosophies alongside evolution, they are depriving students of knowledge, and the Fed Govt should step in and force them to teach it, huh. When do you think they'll start doing this? no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:06:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #210. To: Rhino (#207) It doesn't. But neither does your local government. constitutionally they do. I wouldn't want someone telling me which church to go to. That isn't really the issue. The issue is the govt taking prayer out of school and butting into church business. Prohibiting judges from hanging the 10 commandments on their court wall. Stuff like that. A K A Stone  posted on  2010-10-20   19:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #211. To: no gnu taxes (#209) So if States arbitrarily refuse schools the tight to teach creationist philosophies alongside evolution, they are depriving students of knowledge, and the Fed Govt should step in and force them to teach it, huh. When do you think they'll start doing this? Creationism is a religious doctrine. The schools can teach what they want as long as it isn't an establishment of a religion. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:10:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #212. To: A K A Stone (#210) constitutionally they do. I wouldn't want someone telling me which church to go to. That isn't really the issue. The issue is the govt taking prayer out of school and butting into church business. Prohibiting judges from hanging the 10 commandments on their court wall. Stuff like that. Children are allowed to pray, the school just can't lead them in prayer. Even if every American was some kind of Christian, you all have different prayers. And American isn't all Christian. The Separation of Church and State doesn't prevent hanging the 10 commandments as art or history, but it does prevent it as a display of faith by the court. That again would be establishment of religion. On a further note, it's funny that they choose the 10 commandments when the Bill of Rights specifically makes the first three commandments specifically LEGAL in the United States. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:14:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #213. To: Rhino (#211) Creationism is a religious doctrine. The schools can teach what they want as long as it isn't an establishment of a religion. A religion isn't being taught. It's merely an alternative theory of the origins. There's no dogma, or sects, or creeds. And even if there were, how is anybody being deprived of life, liberty or property? By hearing something they might object to? So any kid in any classroom who hears something they object to is protected by the 14th Amendment? The only ones being deprived are those being deprived of a complete education. Why isn't the Fed Govt helping them. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #214. To: no gnu taxes (#213) A religion isn't being taught. It's merely an alternative theory of the origins. There's no dogma, or sects, or creeds. Genesis isn't a theory it's a religious text. And even if there were, how is anybody being deprived of life, liberty or property? By hearing something they might object to? So any kid in any classroom who hears something they object to is protected by the 14th Amendment? Liberty to freely excercise their religion, and freedom from an establishment of a state religion. A school can't teach your religion is false. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:18:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #215. To: no gnu taxes (#213) The only ones being deprived are those being deprived of a complete education. Why isn't the Fed Govt helping them. Creationism isn't part of a complete education. It is religion. I can't get why a bunch of people who think it is communism to have government pay for healthcare, wants socialized religious education? Do you guys really want the school district in charge of teaching your kid religion. Do you know what countries have religious education in school? Europe. It didn't keep them holy, it destroyed their religions by mixing it with government. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #216. To: Rhino (#214) Genesis isn't a theory it's a religious text. Thar's an entirely different issue; not a Constitutional one -- whatever one's opinion is. Liberty to freely excercise their religion, and freedom from an establishment of a state religion. Everybody is free to engage in whatever religion they want. What if I objected to my kid being exposed to the religion of evolution? A school can't teach your religion is false. Yet you feel it is okay to teach creationism is false. Teaching evolution does just that. Anyway, it is a weak argument on its very face to suggest anybody is being deprived of life or liberty by the 14th Amendment and was not the argument that was used for the Supreme Court to enter this fray. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:28:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #217. To: no gnu taxes (#216) Thar's an entirely different issue; not a Constitutional one -- whatever one's opinion is. No it very much is a Constitutional one. Everybody is free to engage in whatever religion they want. What if I objected to my kid being exposed to the religion of evolution? Under no reasonable definition of religion does evolution apply. Yet you feel it is okay to teach creationism is false. Teaching evolution does just that. If reality and your religion collide, that's on you. But the school can't explicitly say it invalidates your religion. Anyway, it is a weak argument on its very face to suggest anybody is being deprived of life or liberty by the 14th Amendment and was not the argument that was used for the Supreme Court to enter this fray. The first amendment is on it's face a liberty issue. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:33:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #218. To: Rhino (#217) Freedom of Religion: What the Constitution Says The Constitution of The United States guarantees everyone the right to the freedom of expression. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." -United States Constitution The 14th amendment also protects these rights and doesn't allow any state to withhold any individuals rights to the freedom of expression. The Bill of Rights also protects a persons right to religious liberty. The Establishment Clause also says that there is a wall of separation between church and state. Almost all contributions and property of sects of religion are free from taxation so it is clear that religion isn't an enemy of the government. Public officials take oaths that include God's name. The nations anthem includes God's name, and this country was built by people who had strong ties with religion. Because of many court cases spanning across the twentieth century, it has become unlawful for public schools to promote religious exercises. BUT, this does not mean that schools cannot study the Bible because the Bible has literary and historical aspects that are important. Individuals also have the right to pray however they want to while in school. Displays of celebrations around holiday seasons are allowed but in 1989 a manger seen was erected outside of a county courthouse that became unlawful and was in violation of the 1st and 14th amendments. There as a large display of the birth of Jesus on the steps of the building which included a banner that read "Glory to God in the Highest." The Free Exercise Clause gives a person the right to believe whatever he or she wants to believe in matters of religion. It is a constitutional right therefore no government can try and violate that right. It is unlawful to act in certain ways though. People do not have the right to engage in criminal activity, offend public morals, or threat the safety of the community. Polygamy is considered unlawful. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:35:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #219. To: no gnu taxes (#218) Public officials take oaths that include God's name. The nations anthem includes God's name, and this country was built by people who had strong ties with religion. Actually the 6th Article of the Constitution does prevent Religious Tests. And the Oath of the Presidency as written in the US constitution doesn't mention god at all. And the Star Spangled Banner we all sing doesn't say God either. But I guess these are minor points. BUT, this does not mean that schools cannot study the Bible because the Bible has literary and historical aspects that are important. Individuals also have the right to pray however they want to while in school. Exactly. You can teach Bibles stores as literature, or history, but not as truth. For example you really need to have a solid foundation of King James to read much of British Literature, esp Shakespeare. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:42:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #220. To: Rhino (#217) Thar's an entirely different issue; not a Constitutional one -- whatever one's opinion is. No it very much is a Constitutional one. No it's not. You can't see the difference because you are a bigot. Under no reasonable definition of religion does evolution apply. BS. It's unfalsifiable, unverifiable, unprovable, and based on a tautology. But even that's beside the point. If reality and your religion collide, that's on you. But the school can't explicitly say it invalidates your religion. What reality would that be, that you support depriving studemts of a complete educarion, and the Feds doing theit job under the 14rt Amendment of enforcing this? The first amendment is on it's face a liberty issue. Ans students and schools are being deprived of their 1st amendment liberties and pinheads like you support it. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #221. To: no gnu taxes (#220) No it's not. You can't see the difference because you are a bigot. Haha, I guess the entirely Christian Supreme Court that agreed with me are bigots too. BS. It's unfalsifiable, unverifiable, unprovable, and based on a tautology. But even that's beside the point. Find a human bone ten millions year old. That's disprove it instantly. Rhino  posted on  2010-10-20   19:45:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #222. To: Rhino (#221) Find a human bone ten millions year old. That's disprove it instantly. I'll leave the bullshit of evolution to anther thread. I guess the entirely Christian Supreme Court that agreed with me are bigots too. You might want to look up their 1984 decision on the matter. no gnu taxes  posted on  2010-10-20   19:54:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply   #223. To: A K A Stone (#193) There is no constitutional separation of church and state. It is bible thumpers like you who bring death and destruction to the rest of the world. Lots of luck on your crusades. Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-10-20   21:25:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply         .       .       . Comments (224 - 236) not displayed. 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