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Title: Homeowner’s Fight Involves Gadsden Flag Tied to Tea Party
Source:
NYTIMES
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/us/politics/31flag.html?_r=1&hp
Published: Aug 31, 2010
Author: MARC LACEY
Post Date: 2010-08-31 12:40:27 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 161056
Comments: 228
LAVEEN, Ariz. — Don’t tread on Andy C. McDonel. This year, Mr. McDonel began flying a yellow “Don’t Tread on Me” flag on his roof in this unincorporated area just outside Phoenix. The historic banner — which dates to 1775, when it was hoisted aboard ships during the initial days of the Revolutionary War — has been adopted by the Tea Party movement. But Mr. McDonel said that he had unfurled the flag for its historical significance and nothing else. He notes that the banner, the Gadsden flag, has been widely used over the years and was even featured on the cover of a rock album. “Am I a Metallica fan because I’m using the flag?” he asked. This month, he received a letter from the homeowners’ association ordering him to remove “the debris” from his roof. It threatened fines if the debris (i.e., the flag) did not go within 10 days. But Mr. McDonel, 32, a logistics operation manager, has vowed to fight the order. “It’s a patriotic gesture,” he said of his banner. “It’s a historic military flag. It represents the founding fathers. It shows this nation was born out of an idea.” The Avalon Village Community Association, which sent the letter, takes a strict interpretation of the state statute that allows Arizonans the right to fly a variety of flags — the Stars and Stripes, the state flag, flags representing Indian nations as well as the official flags of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard. The listing of acceptable flags stems from a dispute several years ago in nearby Chandler, Ariz., in which a woman with a son serving in Iraq was challenged by her homeowners’ association for flying the Marine Corps flag. State legislators intervened. The Arizona law, says the homeowners’ association butting heads with Mr. McDonel, does not give residents authorization to fly anything else on their properties. That means no pennants bearing sports team logos, no Jolly Rogers, no rainbow banners celebrating gay pride and no historic flags showing a coiled rattlesnake bearing its fangs. As Javier B. Delgado, a lawyer for the homeowners’ association, put it in a statement on the association’s Web site: “Should the Arizona Legislature expand the Community Association Flag Display Statute to include the Gadsden Flag, the Association will accommodate Mr. McDonel’s desire to display it. Bottom-line, anyone considering residing in a community association should carefully review the association’s governing documents beforehand to ensure that the community is a good fit for them.” Mr. McDonel knows the rules well since, until July, he was a member of his homeowners’ association’s board of directors. He resigned in a dispute with the board’s president and shortly thereafter received his first debris notice. That one concerned a treadmill that he had left on his porch, which he admits was a violation of the rules. His second debris warning, which came weeks after that, concerned the flag, which had been up for about six months. “If this is a grudge, it’s sad that the funds that the homeowners put into the association are being wasted on such a petty matter,” Mr. McDonel said. Mr. Delgado, whose law firm represents thousands of homeowners’ associations, denies that any dispute among board members led to the citation of Mr. McDonel’s property. “There is still the potential for dialogue on both sides,” he said, indicating that no fines had yet been levied. The homeowners’ association represents a community of tract homes in what had been a sprawling agricultural area. A survey of Mr. McDonel’s neighbors after the dispute drew the attention of the local news media revealed more concern about the television trucks that have been parking in front of his property than the flag flapping on his roof. After Mr. McDonel’s standoff was picked up by the media, the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona jumped in on Mr. McDonel’s side, arguing that homeowners’ associations do not have the right to “hijack” the free speech rights of their members. The A.C.L.U. fired off a letter to the association on Monday that seeks a meeting with Mr. Delgado to resolve the matter without going as far as a lawsuit. “We’re urging the homeowners’ association to adopt a less limited interpretation of the statute,” said Dan Pochoda, the legal director for the civil liberties group. “The Gadsden flag meets the spirit of the law. It’s a historic military flag. Many consider it the original American flag, before the Stars and Stripes.” As for the political significance that the flag has taken on in this election season, Mr. Pochoda was uninterested, saying that Mr. McDonel’s motivation for flying the flag was irrelevant to the dispute. “We didn’t ask him,” Mr. Pochoda said. As the flag becomes more popular — it was on prominent display on the Washington Mall last weekend during a rally organized by the conservative commentator Glenn Beck — more such disputes are expected. Already, a Colorado homeowner flying the same flag is locked in a standoff with his homeowners’ association. And in Connecticut, a group of retired Marines is challenging the Capitol Police’s decision blocking the Gadsden flag from being flown over the State Capitol.
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#189. To: Ferret Mike, hondo68 (#171)
Let me know where and when you do this if you decide to commit suicide. I'll videotape it and put the snuff piece on You Tube for ya. That's a 15 yard penalty. Unnecessary roughness. Btw, IF you do decide to commit hari kari, Hondo, would you mind...wearing Spandex? It would it so...ironic. (hee-hee)
There is no right to kill babies born or unborn. How many abortions did you have liberal? Feeling a little guilty? Trying to justify your murders? Or maybe someone you know murdered their kid and you rationalized it away. Again there is no right to kill your baby. Only sickos think there is. Are you a sicko?
most people are against baby murder/abortion. And I don't have any killing to do. It is the govts job to punish those who perform abortions and those who seek them.
Or maybe someone you know murdered their kid and you rationalized it away. Again there is no right to kill your baby. Only sickos think there is. Are you a sicko? How cute. You're trying to shift the focus from the fact that your whole constitutional/states rights argument about HOAs and their idiotic contracts didn't hold water. In fact, they sank like a stone. I'm not into revealing oodles of personal details on websites, but since you seem so obsessed with my "behavior," I'll answer your tacky question. Sorry to disappoint you, zealot, I did the birth control thing very well and circumvented the need to contemplate any bigger issues. Yippee for me. However, I will also say that if I had become pregnant through rape or incest, first (right after pressing charges), I would have demanded Plan B and barring that, yes, I would have had an abortion at the earliest moment. And it wouldn't bother me for a second that people like you would label me a sicko.
You go girlfriend! I love you, Suzanne!
Right backatcha!
Like many other's before you Suzanne, you keep coming back to the old dead horse 'rape and incest' as an example of your argument, but you couldn't be more wrong. I think stone feels he same way, but he'll have to speak for himself, no woman should be forced to carry a child of rape and/or incest, or if her life were in danger because of she's pregnant. I agree that all three of these examples are very legitimate reasons for an abortion. Show me where stone called you a 'SICKO' because of any of these reasons! jmho!
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion"~ Albert Camus
You're right, Stone should speak for himself. OK Stone, how 'bout that rape/incest/life endangered thing. The ball's in your court.
Thanks. Sorry to pick on you about this in open forum my dear. Next time if I have a point of order, I will go to inhouse mail.
You should study unalienable rights.
I answered your question. Answer mine...directly and specifically. How 'bout that rape/incest/life endangered thing?
A woman has a right to preserve her life. If a pregnancy threatens her existence, she should be left alone if she and her loved ones decide to end the pregnancy. Incest produces an unhealthy child with a high chance of birth defects. All incest pregnancies should be terminated unless the woman decides otherwise. As for rape, I would prefer to see the child go to term and be adopted, but rape is a horrible act or violence and sometimes an abortion is necessary if the woman is so traumatized carrying the child to term would affect her mental health. Abortion is wrong, but not black and white. The views I expressed many conservative woman believe in too. In any event, I would always give more weight to the overall consensus of women as to what should be legal in abortion. After all, it's their bodies and lives most effected by carrying a child. Women seldom get enough respect, especially in areas their lives are most effected. Men have to be very careful on the abortion issue as the fine line between respect for life and the desire to control women socially, economically and politically is too easy to cross. And if the consensus if women ever is that that line is stepped over by men, they have a right to push them back to the right side of the line again.
I am against abortion on demand, but first and foremost, I am very much a feminist.
That makes you sound like a fag. Not saying you are. Sarah Palin has redefined what a feminist is.
Suzanne first let me know if you realize that abortion is the taking of innocent human life. Do you agree with that or do you have a false belief that it isn.t?
He'll never do it.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." — Jack Handey
I don't take kindly to that sort of taunt. Your bait lies in that you also don't say I'm not. I say it does not matter if anyone is heterosexual like you or I am or homosexual. That is just a normal difference between people; their sexual imprinting. This has always been, always will be, and people like you cannot change that. Women can and often are aligned to support the dominant gender's mindset and advocacies, and similarly, anyone - male of female - can be a feminist. As for Suck face Sarah, she has only defined her own brand of idiocy. She is no feminist. Quite the opposite.
Stop hedging. You asked me a question and I answered. I have a question and you avoid. Murron said that she thought you were on the same page with her, that in some circumstances, such as rape, incest, and life endangerment, abortion was understandable. So...come on...give it up. What is your belief under these circumstances? Time to pony up, chum.
Maybe I was way off base for thinking it, but he'll have to speak for himself. I only know I have no problem with these three reasons for having an abortion, all other reasons are just excuses to get rid of a problem (an innocent baby).
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion"~ Albert Camus
I meant to include your name on my response before, but I hit "post" before doing so.
No worries, good to see you....
"The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion"~ Albert Camus
It is part of answering the question. Now go ahead and answer.
No it isn't. My question stands independently and I'm sure you can handle it. I answered your original question and asked my own. The ball's in your court now. It's only fair. So...are you and Murron, indeed, on the same page that in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment abortion is a legitimate option? Pony up, dude. Stop stalling.
He's probably waiting for his copy of The Limbaugh Letter to arrive in the mail. I'd be okay with abortion for life threatening or incest. Rape victims should receive a Gadsden flag baby blanket, from a private charity.
203
You're a gutless weasel, Stone. Answer the lady's question.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." — Jack Handey
I am answering the question. First there has to be some parameters.
I've answered the question before.
She's given you the parameters. Answer her question.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." — Jack Handey
lol. You're slow skippy. I make the parameters.
Not if you want to have any posters.
"I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." — Jack Handey
You're free to leave anytime you want to. Just don't let the door drill you in the ass on the way out.
211
If you answer the questions and define some terms you will get your answer and you will understand why. So if you are interested then just play along for a few posts. Otherwise it doesn't really matter to me if you understand why I believe what I believe.
I answered your original question. In polite society, that earned me the right to ask you a question and have it answered. I will not "play along for a few posts." You're simply trying to find a way of belittling me because my opinions differ from yours. Not interested. And it doesn't really matter to me if you understand why I believe what I believe. And someone like you doesn't have the standing with me to make me change my opinions. Since you won't answer my straightforward question (after I answered yours), I'm done with this thread.
You have to let someone answer their question the way they want to. Just wanted to define some terms. Have a good night.
Chuckles......Slapped both the upper and lower set right outta dwarf's maw with that one:):)
Death to everybody who does not get outta my way. Below is the latest Dwarf revelation: ...."the shorts and bibs I wear are of a carbon/lycra/nylon composition......and maaaaaannnnnn....just letting everybody know that makes my balls SWELL......I'm just tooooooo sexy for you all!!" ....Dwarf August 2010.............. And one from the bluehair 2-legged GPS "I always get the Carolinas mixed up for some reason." ......Fred Jerx (who will doubtless figure out intricacy of that tricky "North / South" thing someday.
Chuckles Mike .........Tyson:) So.....spandex "boy".....what we learn here on anonymous chatrooms #101 and cover in review in anonymous chatrooms # 102....is that pounding snot really just does ......not....... fly real far in the "cred" game. I for instance just finished bitch slapping Jet Li and Jason Statham right off their al fresco chairs over in Old Town Pasadena when they mouthed off after I took swigs of their respective beers. The beer was needed after I finished off munching on a box of 12 gauge shotgun shells for lunch. Not just 45 minutes ago. You are a spandex bra wearing-all-things-leftist-fellator whose hormone injections haven't yet taken full effect. Know your place, spandex warrior:):) I stand 6-10 and weigh 288 and am on my may over to give some pointers to Lane Kiffin's DT's and OL this afternoon. I invented the BowFlex machine....aka the JagFlex. I have time to have my snot knocked out later this afternoon.....if you can manage. BBBBWWWWAAAAHHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!!.....sheesh........BBBBBBBWWWWWAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAA!!! Seriously Mike...... avoid looking dwarflike-stupid in the posting style.....he's been the only one on this site to go there tmk.....leave the laughabll pointless bloviation to the expert.
Death to everybody who does not get outta my way. Below is the latest Dwarf revelation: ...."the shorts and bibs I wear are of a carbon/lycra/nylon composition......and maaaaaannnnnn....just letting everybody know that makes my balls SWELL......I'm just tooooooo sexy for you all!!" ....Dwarf August 2010.............. And one from the bluehair 2-legged GPS "I always get the Carolinas mixed up for some reason." ......Fred Jerx (who will doubtless figure out intricacy of that tricky "North / South" thing someday.
Tick Tock. Still waiting.
My answer is in 223
This former bicycle racer, who still wears spandex when riding the back roads would pound the snot out of you if you came up to me making sneering remarks assuming you know why some athletes wear clothing made with it.
#190. To: Suzanne (#186)
#191. To: Suzanne (#185)
#192. To: A K A Stone (#190)
There is no right to kill babies born or unborn. How many abortions did you have liberal? Feeling a little guilty? Trying to justify your murders?
#193. To: Suzanne (#192)
I'm not into revealing oodles of personal details on websites, but since you seem so obsessed with my "behavior," I'll answer your tacky question. Sorry to disappoint you, zealot, I did the birth control thing very well and circumvented the need to contemplate any bigger issues. Yippee for me. However, I will also say that if I had become pregnant through rape or incest, first (right after pressing charges), I would have demanded Plan B and barring that, yes, I would have had an abortion at the earliest moment. And it wouldn't bother me for a second that people like you would label me a sicko.
#194. To: meguro (#193)
I love you, Suzanne!
#195. To: Suzanne, A K A Stone (#192)
I will also say that if I had become pregnant through rape or incest, first (right after pressing charges), I would have demanded Plan B and barring that, yes, I would have had an abortion at the earliest moment. And it wouldn't bother me for a second that people like you would label me a sicko.
#196. To: Murron, A K A Stone (#195)
I think stone feels he same way, but he'll have to speak for himself, no woman should be forced to carry a child of rape and/or incest, or if her life were in danger because of she's pregnant.
#197. To: Murron (#195)
""The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion"~ Albert Camus"
#198. To: Suzanne (#186)
#199. To: A K A Stone, Murron (#198)
You should study unalienable rights.
#200. To: Suzanne (#199)
#201. To: Suzanne (#199)
#202. To: Ferret Mike (#201)
I am very much a feminist.
#203. To: Suzanne (#199)
#204. To: Suzanne (#199)
Answer mine...directly and specifically. How 'bout that rape/incest/life endangered thing?
#205. To: A K A Stone (#202)
(Edited)
"That makes you sound like a fag. Not saying you are."
#206. To: A K A Stone (#203)
Suzanne first let me know...
#207. To: Suzanne, A K A Stone (#206)
"Murron said that she thought you were on the same page with her, that in some circumstances, such as rape, incest, and life endangerment, abortion was understandable."
#208. To: Murron (#207)
#209. To: Suzanne (#208)
#210. To: Suzanne (#206)
#211. To: A K A Stone, Murron (#210)
It is part of answering the question.
#212. To: Suzanne, A K A Stone (#211)
(Edited)
Stop stalling.
#213. To: Suzanne (#211)
#214. To: A K A Stone (#213)
#215. To: Skip Intro (#214)
#216. To: Skip Intro (#214)
#217. To: A K A Stone (#215)
am answering the question. First there has to be some parameters.
#218. To: Skip Intro (#217)
She's given you the parameters. Answer her question.
#219. To: A K A Stone (#218)
ol. You're slow skippy. I make the parameters.
#220. To: Skip Intro (#219)
#221. To: A K A Stone (#213)
#222. To: Suzanne (#221)
#223. To: A K A Stone (#222)
If you answer the questions
#224. To: Suzanne (#223)
#225. To: hondo68, liberator (#168)
My proposed amendment to ban spandex wearers from the voting booth, has a better chance of passing. Americans like the Gadsden flag a lot more, than they like fags in spandex.
#226. To: Ferret Mike, hondo68, liberator (#171)
This former bicycle racer, who still wears spandex when riding the back roads would pound the snot out of you if you came up to me making sneering remarks assuming you know why some athletes wear clothing made with it.
#227. To: Suzanne (#223)
#228. To: A K A Stone, war, Fred Mertz (#227)
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