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Title: Homeowner’s Fight Involves Gadsden Flag Tied to Tea Party
Source:
NYTIMES
URL Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/us/politics/31flag.html?_r=1&hp
Published: Aug 31, 2010
Author: MARC LACEY
Post Date: 2010-08-31 12:40:27 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 161117
Comments: 228
LAVEEN, Ariz. — Don’t tread on Andy C. McDonel. This year, Mr. McDonel began flying a yellow “Don’t Tread on Me” flag on his roof in this unincorporated area just outside Phoenix. The historic banner — which dates to 1775, when it was hoisted aboard ships during the initial days of the Revolutionary War — has been adopted by the Tea Party movement. But Mr. McDonel said that he had unfurled the flag for its historical significance and nothing else. He notes that the banner, the Gadsden flag, has been widely used over the years and was even featured on the cover of a rock album. “Am I a Metallica fan because I’m using the flag?” he asked. This month, he received a letter from the homeowners’ association ordering him to remove “the debris” from his roof. It threatened fines if the debris (i.e., the flag) did not go within 10 days. But Mr. McDonel, 32, a logistics operation manager, has vowed to fight the order. “It’s a patriotic gesture,” he said of his banner. “It’s a historic military flag. It represents the founding fathers. It shows this nation was born out of an idea.” The Avalon Village Community Association, which sent the letter, takes a strict interpretation of the state statute that allows Arizonans the right to fly a variety of flags — the Stars and Stripes, the state flag, flags representing Indian nations as well as the official flags of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines and Coast Guard. The listing of acceptable flags stems from a dispute several years ago in nearby Chandler, Ariz., in which a woman with a son serving in Iraq was challenged by her homeowners’ association for flying the Marine Corps flag. State legislators intervened. The Arizona law, says the homeowners’ association butting heads with Mr. McDonel, does not give residents authorization to fly anything else on their properties. That means no pennants bearing sports team logos, no Jolly Rogers, no rainbow banners celebrating gay pride and no historic flags showing a coiled rattlesnake bearing its fangs. As Javier B. Delgado, a lawyer for the homeowners’ association, put it in a statement on the association’s Web site: “Should the Arizona Legislature expand the Community Association Flag Display Statute to include the Gadsden Flag, the Association will accommodate Mr. McDonel’s desire to display it. Bottom-line, anyone considering residing in a community association should carefully review the association’s governing documents beforehand to ensure that the community is a good fit for them.” Mr. McDonel knows the rules well since, until July, he was a member of his homeowners’ association’s board of directors. He resigned in a dispute with the board’s president and shortly thereafter received his first debris notice. That one concerned a treadmill that he had left on his porch, which he admits was a violation of the rules. His second debris warning, which came weeks after that, concerned the flag, which had been up for about six months. “If this is a grudge, it’s sad that the funds that the homeowners put into the association are being wasted on such a petty matter,” Mr. McDonel said. Mr. Delgado, whose law firm represents thousands of homeowners’ associations, denies that any dispute among board members led to the citation of Mr. McDonel’s property. “There is still the potential for dialogue on both sides,” he said, indicating that no fines had yet been levied. The homeowners’ association represents a community of tract homes in what had been a sprawling agricultural area. A survey of Mr. McDonel’s neighbors after the dispute drew the attention of the local news media revealed more concern about the television trucks that have been parking in front of his property than the flag flapping on his roof. After Mr. McDonel’s standoff was picked up by the media, the American Civil Liberties Union of Arizona jumped in on Mr. McDonel’s side, arguing that homeowners’ associations do not have the right to “hijack” the free speech rights of their members. The A.C.L.U. fired off a letter to the association on Monday that seeks a meeting with Mr. Delgado to resolve the matter without going as far as a lawsuit. “We’re urging the homeowners’ association to adopt a less limited interpretation of the statute,” said Dan Pochoda, the legal director for the civil liberties group. “The Gadsden flag meets the spirit of the law. It’s a historic military flag. Many consider it the original American flag, before the Stars and Stripes.” As for the political significance that the flag has taken on in this election season, Mr. Pochoda was uninterested, saying that Mr. McDonel’s motivation for flying the flag was irrelevant to the dispute. “We didn’t ask him,” Mr. Pochoda said. As the flag becomes more popular — it was on prominent display on the Washington Mall last weekend during a rally organized by the conservative commentator Glenn Beck — more such disputes are expected. Already, a Colorado homeowner flying the same flag is locked in a standoff with his homeowners’ association. And in Connecticut, a group of retired Marines is challenging the Capitol Police’s decision blocking the Gadsden flag from being flown over the State Capitol.
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#1. To: Brian S (#0)
(Edited)
The lesson here is don't join an association in which you cede your right of expression.
Exactly. I once considered a townhome until I read the association's "rules." Too much like living with mommy and daddy. But unlike mommy and daddy, you agree to it--which I didn't.
I lived in a townhome/condo association thingy while in the DC area for about 4 years. I played the game but I was happy to depart when my time was up.
#2. To: war (#1)
The lesson here is don't join an association in which you cede your right of expression.
#3. To: Suzanne (#2)
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#4. To: war (#1) (Edited)
So you'd be okay with the HOA banning blacks? They can move to the other side of the tracks. If the 1st amendment doesn't apply, why bother with the 14th?
don't join an association in which you cede your right of expression.
#5. To: hondo68 (#4)
How are they remotely the same issue? Really...I want to see your logic here.
So you'd be okay with the HA banning blacks?
#6. To: hondo68 (#4)
Don't be silly. HAs can't violate laws about fair housing, etc. They can, however, make ridiculous rules about the color of your front door, the type of trash can you can have, how long a car can be parked outside, the display of banners, etc. These are "mommy and daddy" types of rules and not rules that violate civil rights. HAs are all about conformity and non-distinctiveness. That's why I lost interest.
So you'd be okay with the HA banning blacks?
#7. To: war (#5)
Civil liberties, inalienable rights, natural/God given rights. You're on the slippery slope, wanting the 14th, but not the whole 1st. Yeah, the 1st shouldn't apply to Gadsden flag flyers, just American flag burners. /s
How are they remotely the same issue?
#8. To: hondo68 (#7)
How does that have anything remotely to do with agreeing to a standard of landscaping? They have to agree to not hold a lantern in front of their houses? What?
#9. To: hondo68, war (#7)
You're on the slippery slope, wanting the 14th, but not the whole 1st. Just try expressing your "1st Amendment rights" at your employer's place of business. You'll quickly find out that employers (just like HAs) can set standards of appropriate conduct and acceptable displays.
Civil liberties, inalienable rights, natural/God given rights.
#10. To: Suzanne (#9) (Edited)
Well...not tryiong to tringulate this issue, but I ***think*** this guy has a better case of infringement than a guy at work. But when he moved in, he agreed to a standard of landscaping of which flags were a part.
#11. To: war (#8)
So a standard of landscaping, no blacks on the landscape is OK with you?
standard of landscaping?
#12. To: hondo68 (#7)
You're on the slippery slope, wanting the 14th, but not the whole 1st. Yeah, the 1st shouldn't apply to Gadsden flag flyers, just American flag burners. /s Moral..don't buy a house that has involves a HA contract. I'm sure no one held a gun to this guy's head to do so. The right of the majority of homeowners in the assn to determine who they have to associate with and all that. Good old conservative values.
Civil liberties, inalienable rights, natural/God given rights.
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#13. To: mininggold (#12)
The right of the majority of homeowners in the assn to determine who they have to associate with and all that. Good old conservative values. Home owners associations contracts are unconstitutional. You can do whatever you want on your property. He should target the people hassling him covertly.
Moral..don't buy a house that has involves a HA contract. I'm sure no one held a gun to this guy's head to do so.
#14. To: hondo68 (#11)
You do have a way of using twisted logic, I'll give you that.
So a standard of landscaping, no blacks on the landscape is OK with you?
#15. To: Suzanne (#14)
He isn't twisting anything. He is being consistent. You are the one twisting.
You do have a way of using twisted logic, I'll give you that.
#16. To: A K A Stone (#13)
Sure they are Stoner. One of my friends lives near DC. He pointed me to a pickup truck in his neighborhood. It was some sort of restored gem from the 50's, probably worth $20K or above. The homeowners association didn't allow pickup trucks in the area. I don't know what ever came about it.
Home owners associations contracts are unconstitutional.
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#17. To: A K A Stone (#13) (Edited)
Where does it say that a group of people can't make rules they agree with? I guess clubs are illegal in your world too along with being irresponsible and immature. Or was this guy forced to buy there? Just imagine him as a Muslim wanting a crescent flag in the front yard to make it easier on you.
Home owners associations contracts are unconstitutional. You can do whatever you want on your property. He should target the people hassling him covertl
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#18. To: A K A Stone, hondo68 (#15)
Well, let me try being straightforward. No blacks on the landscaping? That's silly and violates fair housing rules and other civil rights so HOAs can't make rules like that. No lawn jockeys or garden gnomes on the landscaping, now that IS something that HOAs will likely have rules about--as well as parties on the landscaping. And, no, Stone, you can't do "anything" you want even on your property. Just try having sex on the front lawn and see what comes of that. HOAs operate by contract and are subject to state statues. As long as their mommy and daddy rules stay within that structure, they're lawful. And, you always have the right not to sign the contract and to find another place to live.
He isn't twisting anything. He is being consistent. You are the one twisting.
#19. To: Fred Mertz (#16)
When people violate your property rights. You fight back. Sugar, corn on the cob, chocolate or whatever it takes.
#20. To: Suzanne (#18)
You are a communist. You don't understand freedom. The first amendment says free speech. Then you have the 14th. They trump any law passed. You are letting your feelings cloud your judgment.
#21. To: A K A Stone (#19)
What is it about the ability of citizens to make laws and contracts that they agree with that's so disagreeable to you?
When people violate your property rights. You fight back. Sugar, corn on the cob, chocolate or whatever it takes.
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#22. To: Suzanne (#18)
Then you think someone should be able to say no blacks in the contract? If not you can tell them to find another place to live. No that is not the way it is supposed to work. The problem is that your parents didn't teach you right. I hope you don't have any kids.
And, you always have the right not to sign the contract and to find another place to live.
#23. To: A K A Stone (#20)
LOL...no, the only thing red about me is my hair. I do believe that if you sign a lawful contract that you are obligated to live according to that contract. Apparently, you think it's OK to sign a contract and then break it. Nice ethics.
You are a communist.
#24. To: mininggold (#21)
They are violating private property rights. If they want to rent out the property and make rules fine. If they sell the property they no longer have a say so. That is the way it is suppposed to work. Until people who think like you commies got some power. Why do you hate private property rights?
What is it about the ability of citizens to make laws and contracts that they agree with that's so disagreeable to you?
#25. To: Suzanne (#23)
It is not a lawful contract. You have a right to own property and do whatever you want with it. You think like someone from the USSR.
#26. To: Suzanne (#18)
Gawd! I think I'm going blind!!!
Just try having sex on the front lawn and see what comes of that.
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#27. To: A K A Stone (#22)
Quit being an asshole, Stoner.
I hope you don't have any kids.
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#28. To: A K A Stone (#24)
The people in that area say different and have the ability to make laws and enforce their desires and wants (pursuing their own happiness), even if that means abridging their property rights. Who are you to say they are wrong? Unless he was forced to buy his home he was free to look elsewhere and exercise HIS freedom of association.
They are violating private property rights. If they want to rent out the property and make rules fine. If they sell the property they no longer have a say so. That is the way it is suppposed to work. Until people who think like you commies got some power. Why do you hate private property rights?
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#29. To: A K A Stone (#22)
Again, you're being silly and reactionary. Contracts can't violate laws. But stupid HOA contracts can make lawful rules about controlling the appearance of the property, which doesn't include the color of the people living there. It's all about conformity. And I expressed my freedom by not signing the contract. BTW, when arguing with me, I wish you'd have the decency to keep my parents/child out of the discussion. It's irrelevant and tacky.
Then you think someone should be able to say no blacks in the contract?
#30. To: Fred Mertz (#27)
The dictator of his own forum now thinks he's the dictator of the country. LOLOL
Quit being an asshole, Stoner.
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#31. To: Suzanne (#18)
LOL...I'm going to prison for sure....how many years do you get for this offense?
"Just try having sex on the front lawn and see what comes of that."
#32. To: Fred Mertz (#26)
So stop playing with yourself, jerx.
Gawd! I think I'm going blind!!!
#33. To: Murron (#31)
Wait until Badeye and Tull learn about this. They'll be combat pistoling for position. LOLOL
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#34. To: Murron (#31)
You'll probably just pay a fine...but think of the cost if that image "goes viral." :>)
LOL...I'm going to prison for sure....how many years do you get for this offense?
#35. To: hondo68 (#11)
Is there a cogent interrogatory that you have for me?
So a standard of landscaping, no blacks on the landscape is OK with you?
#36. To: war (#35)
Mammy having sex in her front yard. What is your reaction?
Is there a cogent interrogatory that you have for me?
"Lets [sic] rent a room." ~ Tull to Rotara
#37. To: Suzanne (#29)
The constitution is the supreme law of the land. Any law that doesn't conform isn't a law. There is no law that says you can't discriminate against someone in renting selling or whatever. When you OWN property it is yours to do as you please with. Commies disagree. You must be a commie. I hope if you have kids you aren't teaching them your ignorance.
Contracts can't violate laws.
#38. To: A K A Stone (#37) (Edited)
All zoning laws are illegal? I think I'll buy the prop next to yours and open an outdoor 24 hour shooting range, raise roosters or run a cattle feedlot..
When you OWN property it is yours to do as you please with.
"Look you leftist pervert, make sure you keep your Mr Winky away from your family's new addition or I will send some fellow salad tossers to square away your sorry butt. Got it??"
The good "cop", Jethro Tull explaining how to prevent a Palin family tradition in YOUR family.
#39. To: Fred Mertz (#36)
Thankfully her front yard is 2 miles away from any road...
#40. To: Suzanne (#29)
You would be happy if 100 percent of neighborhoods in America had homeowners associations. Then they could do away with the constitution. That is your position if you realize it or not.
#41. To: A K A Stone (#37)
You're a jerk.
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