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LEFT WING LOONS
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Title: Creationist Weaseling Over The Age Of The Earth
Source: ScienceBlogs
URL Source: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ ... tionist_weaseling_over_the.php
Published: Jul 8, 2010
Author: PZ Myers
Post Date: 2010-07-08 19:08:56 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 14832
Comments: 24

Last week, the hilarity was that Rand Paul refused to say how old he thought the earth was. The new chew toys are creationist apologists for ignorance trying to justify it, while also refusing to state how old they think the earth is. The amusement lies in the way these guys puff themselves up into a state of moral superiority while claiming that scientists are dogmatists…because, you know, they know stuff.

I don't know the age of the earth, but I know that someone who thinks that someone who doesn't know the age of the earth should have a position on the age of the earth anyway is a dogmatist. What else could he be?

This is the curious thing about people who hold to Darwinism: they demand that people with no scientific expertise hold scientific opinions. But on what basis? Many people can't hold them on a basis of scientific knowledge, since they don't have sufficient scientific knowledge to hold them. There is only one basis upon which they can hold them, and it is the basis upon which Darwinists demand they hold them: on the basis of authority.

Nah, it's simpler than that. We read the books — even the simple books for the lay public — and they describe the evidence for the age of the earth, and they also explain how the data is used to explore deeper into geology. I'm not a physicist or geologist, but it's relatively easy to get an overview of the host of data used to support estimates of the age of the earth, to see the degree of detail geologists have at hand, and it's also even easier to see that working geologists and physicists, people with in-depth training in their fields, are not arguing over whether the earth is 6000 or 4.6 billion years old; the issue is settled.

It's not dogmatism, it's pragmatism. The depth of science is so great that no one brain can even grasp the whole of a single subfield, so we trust our colleagues — at least, we trust them as far as they demonstrate cooperation with the tacit rules of the institution of science, which safeguard to some extent the reliability of a scientific claim. The relevant scientists say the earth is 4.6 billion years old, and they are all willing to show their work, so I'll provisionally accept it until I see a reliable source provide cantrary evidence. A cowardly creationist who won't even set a rough date is not a reliable source.

It's fine if someone doesn't know how old the earth is, if it's not at all relevant to what they do. I don't do spot checks on plumbers and carpenters and electricians who come by my house, making sure they know the date of the Permian extinction before I let them do their job. But there are a couple of situations where I think it is appropriate to insist on some basic understanding.

If you are a scientist of any kind, you'd better be aware of the general location in space and time of your planet. It's not too much to ask, most of us went through a nerdy phase (lasting practically our entire life) in which we devoured all kinds of general knowledge, and we kind of figured out how old the earth is in 4th grade. If we were a bit slow. We also puzzled out that the planet was a rough spheroid in an elliptical orbit approximately 8 light-minutes from our sun. Other kids might have been accumulating baseball knowledge or memorizing the lyrics to pop songs, but Our People learned other things.

If you are a politician, you don't need to know the scientific data directly, but you'd better be competent to delegate, and you'd better know who in the scientific and engineering community, and that means it's a good idea to have some information about the scientific consensus. You don't want to appoint somebody to head the department of energy who thinks the power grid taps into electricity from the sun, or that oil was created in situ in the last 6000 years. It matters when Rand Paul runs away from a basic scientific question, because it means he doesn't have the competence to judge who will be a good advisor or not. It also tells us that he does not have the political courage to fight for good science-based policy.

The third category is most appropriate here: if you are a creationist who regularly complains about "Darwinists" and promotes intelligent design creationism, yet declaims at length that you are so abysmally ignorant that you can't even make up your mind whether to trust elementary geology, then nothing you can say about any science is trustworthy. It's fine to admit that you are an empty-headed goober who hasn't bothered to look up any relevant science at all, but when you set up a soapbox and pontificate about the insupportability of "Darwinism" from your platform of self-admitted lack of knowledge, you've upgraded yourself from silly schlemiel to arrogant putz.


One other hilarious addition: this inane creationist has posted a citation that he thinks supports his agnosticism on the age of the earth: it's an articled describing how astronomers are revising the estimated age of the solar system — between 4.566 billion and 4.567 billion years old. Oh, yeah, baby — a little more uncertainty, and 0.000006 billion years will look reasonable!

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#1. To: Brian S (#0)

No one has ever been to show anyone any proof of the age of the earth. However the creation model of a young earth passes every test.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   19:35:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: A K A Stone (#1)

No one has ever been to show anyone any proof of the age of the earth. However the creation model of a young earth passes every test.

And love is all.

live in the now.

but you want to build nuclear reactors.

Cognitive dissonance. Everything has changed except the way we think...

Another way of saying we're no better than yeast.

Thank you from a fellow homo rapien. ;}

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-08   19:40:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: A K A Stone (#1)

“it’s just to thick to be coming from the west coast”.

But of course that makes oil abiotic.

And then we'll never run out and Macondo will never stop gushing will it?

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-08   19:42:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: mcgowanjm (#3)

I don't know it if will stop gushing. I hope it will

Yes oil is abiotic.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   19:45:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A K A Stone (#4)

You hope?

8D

What about hoping that british petroleum starts telling the truth?

You hoping for that one as well?

Hope the 35+ million get paid for what they're suffering?

Got any hope left over for the Gulf?

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-08   19:48:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: mcgowanjm (#5)

I don't know about BP. I just hope the gusher is capped soon.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   19:53:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#6)

I don't know about BP. I just hope the gusher is capped soon.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1171518/1/index.htm

Mr. Eugene was one of the five happiest people I’d ever met, and he’d lived for 94 years, he said, because he’d found a recipe. He worked all day catching minnows. He sang and laughed to himself on the water. He called to the pelicans and fed them porgy. He held no anger, not even toward the oil company that had made the big mistake. “BP’s nice people,” he said. “Accidents happen to anybody.” He made just enough money, selling minnows for 15 cents each, to go to Boomtown Casino on weekends and do the alligator dance to Jambalaya. All of that, linked together, was what kept an old man alive, he said, and to prove it he hooked his thumbs in the waist of his jeans, grinned and did a Jambalaya jig right there beside the marsh. …

A few days earlier [Eugene had] seen a pelican coated with oil sitting on a marsh isle, and he’d crept up to it. “It’s O.K., Honeydew,” he cooed, offering a porgy. “Calm down, Honeydew… . I won’t hurt you.” He reached with a rag and tried to rub off some of the oil, then returned a few hours later to check on the pelican. Honeydew was dead. Mr. Eugene dug a hole in the mud with his bare hands, tucked the pelican’s head under its wing and buried it.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-08   20:05:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: A K A Stone (#1)

However the creation model of a young earth passes every test.

What tests might those be?

"The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is." - Rush Limbaugh

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-07-08   21:27:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Skip Intro (#8)

I mentioned one earlier in case you missed it.

If the creation model is true. You would expect to see billions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. That is in fact what you see.

You would also expect to see things produce after like kind. And not have a chimpanzee born to a dog. That is what you see.

The grand canyon fits with the creation model as well.

There are a few.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   21:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: A K A Stone (#9)

If the creation model is true. You would expect to see billions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. That is in fact what you see.

In a single layer of sediment?

That, in fact, is exactly what you don't see.

And if the Grand Canyon fits the creation model, why are there missing layers and where did the shallow ocean water fossils come from? Why aren't non-ocean fossils found with them?

"The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is." - Rush Limbaugh

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-07-08   21:41:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Skip Intro (#10)

The amount of layers is irrelevant to your cause. There aren't enough layers for billions of years.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   21:42:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: A K A Stone (#11)

A number of folks around here collect and hunt for arrow heads and other tools. I don't remember exactly, but some of them are tens of thousands of years old.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-07-08   21:52:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)

There aren't enough layers for billions of years.

How do you come up with this stuff?

"The ocean will take care of this on its own if it was left alone and left out there. It's natural. It's as natural as the ocean water is." - Rush Limbaugh

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-07-08   21:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Fred Mertz (#12)

A number of folks around here collect and hunt for arrow heads and other tools. I don't remember exactly, but some of them are tens of thousands of years old.

Did they have a note with the date they were made? How about a pic of one. Who said they were that old and how did they conclude such? You can't answer those questions can you?

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   22:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#14)

You're an idiot. You're welcome.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-07-08   22:47:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Skip Intro (#10)

And if the Grand Canyon fits the creation model, why are there missing layers and where did the shallow ocean water fossils come from? Why aren't non-ocean fossils found with them?

Why aren't meteorites found in the layers?

What missing layers?

The earth was flooded so there are fossils all over the earth.

Look. A bunch of fools who think they know something can't just think up a theory and say that is how it happened. It is not science at all. It is faith. A garbage religion. History tells us the earth is young too. The written record isn't on your side. Man wasn't around for tens of thousands of years then suddenly advanced civilizations arose. Get real.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   22:49:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Fred Mertz (#15)

You're the idiot. You made the assinine comment that the arrow heads were tens of thousands of years old. You don't even know how you came up with that number.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   22:50:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: A K A Stone (#17)

So, Goldi, you think the earth is 5,000 years old? Really?

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-07-08   23:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A K A Stone, Fred Mertz, All (#17)

Indian Arrowheads During this time the ice age was fully in swing and an ice bridge linked Asia ... With the extinction of the mastadon around 8000 years ago, the Paleo people ... You will find many broken pieces of arrow heads to ones that are whole. ...

www.raywyatt.net/photo4_1.html

carbon 14 is neat.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-08   23:03:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: mcgowanjm (#19)

Kewel;^)

Fred Mertz  posted on  2010-07-08   23:09:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Fred Mertz (#18)

So, Goldi, you think the earth is 5,000 years old? Really?

So Fred. You gonna answer the question or not?

You can't back up your BELIEFS!

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-08   23:23:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: A K A Stone, Fred Mertz, eskimo, All (#21) (Edited)

So, Goldi, you think the earth is 5,000 years old? Really?

So Fred. You gonna answer the question or not?

You can't back up your BELIEFS!

I can.

Google ice cores, rock ash layers, tectonic plates, carbon 14 dating, for details.

The great news is that homo rapiens ain't leaving the planet.

Independence Day 'Aliens'? That's british petroleum if it gets off planet.

LMFAO What ignorance abounds as we let the Top 50 000 explain to us that they deserve 40 cents of every $ made.

mcgowanjm  posted on  2010-07-09   9:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: A K A Stone (#16) (Edited)

Why aren't meteorites found in the layers?

Meteorites, or bits of them, have been found in layers of the earth. New craters from past catastrophic hits have been discovered within the last decade. IN fact, there is a growing body of evidence that Greenland and Canada were very heavily bombarded a few billion years ago. The presence of tungsten found in earth layers proves this.

war  posted on  2010-07-09   9:38:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: mcgowanjm, A K A Stone, Fred Mertz, All (#22)

Google ice cores,...

If you do, you will find this very interesting article.

"http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/2006_articles/IceCoreSprg97.pdf"

eskimo  posted on  2010-07-09   11:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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