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The Water Cooler
See other The Water Cooler Articles

Title: Does Rand Paul Believe Private Employers Have the Right to Refuse to Hire Jews, Gays and Lesbians, or Women?
Source: FIREDOGLAKE
URL Source: http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/50505
Published: May 26, 2010
Author: Chris Edelson
Post Date: 2010-05-26 12:14:44 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 12425
Comments: 46

The recent Rand Paul coverage has focused on his rather startling suggestion that private businesses ought to have the right to deny service to customers because of their race. That was certainly an important part of the Civil Rights Act and an important issue for the civil rights movement, and it’s surprising to find a likely U.S. senator in 2010 who questions what everyone thought was a settled matter. Paul has claimed he would have marched with Martin Luther King, Jr. if he had the opportunity, but one of the central things King marched for was an end to this kind of discrimination. In fact, King was arrested and sentenced to four months in jail after a sit in at an Atlanta restaurant that denied service to African-Americans. (King was released after intervention by John F. and Robert Kennedy).

It will hurt your head if you try to figure out how Paul could have marched alongside King even as he, Paul, defended the right of restaurant owners to bar King from their establishments, with the backing of the police. (I guess Paul would have marched with King only to the restaurant’s door, parting company when it came time to actually sit in?) So it’s only fitting that Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews and others have focused on this piece of the story. However, there’s more to discuss. As Jim Moss and others have observed, someone who privileges property rights over human rights will have trouble backing lots of other government regulation of business that we take for granted in the 21st century.

One point I haven’t seen explored in great detail, however, is the question of employment discrimination. (I have seen a couple of mentions, but not much about this–on Hardball and Rachel Maddow tonight, discussion continued to focus on the lunch counter question). Paul has claimed that he only disagrees with Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination by private business that are open to the public. That’s the piece that put an end to segregated lunch counters, hotels, restaurants, etc. Paul has suggested this is the only part of the Civil Rights Act that speaks to private entities, and Maddow and others seem to have accepted Paul’s incorrect recitation of what the Act covers: Maddow reports that "Paul’s particular beef with the Civil Rights Act of 1964 has to do with Title VII…" But the 1964 law actually has another central provision that addresses private entities but has gone largely unremarked on by the media: Title VII, which prohibits employment discrimination by private employers with 15 or more employees. If Paul thinks government has no right telling private businesses they can’t refuse to serve African-American customers, he almost certainly also believes government has no right telling those businesses they can’t discriminate against employees based on their race.

That takes me to another overlooked point: everyone has focused on race discrimination. Again, this is quite natural given the context for passage of the 1964 Act. However, the law also prohibits discrimination based on sex and religion, among other individual characteristics. So, does Paul reject the federal government’s authority to outlaw sexual harassment? Does he believe private employers have the right to refuse to hire Jews?

These aren’t completely academic or historical questions. There’s an employment discrimination bill pending before Congress right now–ENDA, which would prohibit employment discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity. It’s quite possible that Paul, if elected to the Senate, would have the opportunity to vote on this legislation. In the absence of federal law in this area, there is currently no prohibition in 29 states against firing someone from his or her job because of their sexual orientation (38 states for gender identity). I practiced employment discrimination law for 10 years and used to get calls from people living in these states who were facing discrimination because they are gay or lesbian. There’s not much they can do. In most states, a private employer can fire a superbly qualified employee simply because they are gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender–or straight, for that matter (though in practice that is less of a real world problem).

Rand Paul praises the centrality of property rights and such rights certainly receive protection in our system. But do property rights trump all other rights? What about the equally venerated right to work, a right Republicans cheer for, in theory, but a right that seems subject to exactly the same criticism Paul leveled at Title II of the Civil Rights Act. Someone ought to ask Paul: should private employers have the right to discharge employees simply because of their religion? Can a private employer refuse to hire Jews, Seventh Day Adventists, or Muslims? Should women who are told to choose between sleeping with their boss and losing their job have no legal recourse against their employer? Does he support ENDA? These are highly relevant questions, some involving legislation currently pending before Congress. It would be nice to know what would-be Sen. Paul thinks.

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#1. To: Brian S (#0)

Firedog Lake should actually listen to Paul's answer to this ridiculous question, THEN write an article.

For approximately 72K, BP Oil bought Owe-bama. And as President, he let them Spill, Baby, Spill! Its documented.

Badeye  posted on  2010-05-26   12:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Badeye (#1)

Why don't you post his answer, Boof? It might help to make LF a "serious political forum". (eyes rolling)

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-26   12:29:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Brian S (#0)

It doesn't matter if he believes that or not. You have that right. Just like I have the right to not let fags post here. Or blacks or Jews or whatever else I would choose.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-26   12:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3) (Edited)

Ackowledging that you exhibit restraint unseen on other forums, how would doing so promote free speech?

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-26   13:10:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: war (#4)

Ackowledging that you exhibit restraint unseen on other forums, how would doing so promote free speech?

It has nothing to do with free speech. It has to do with private property. Do you believe in private property?

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-26   17:43:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Craig_Portwood (#0)

Your account has been set to full posting privelages. Welcome and enjoy.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-26   17:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Brian S (#0)

Paul made a couple of interesting points that were completely missed by the unthinking left.

First, that government policy was a large contributor to discrimination. From "separate but equal" to the fact that most of the KKK leadership were elected Democrat party officials, government was the driving force behind segregation and other discriminatory evils.

Second, that markets ultimately will do a much better job at ensuring equality of opportunity, justice, and fairness than the government. For example, why did Apple, Microsoft, HP and IBM start providing spousal benefits to their gay employees? Because government made them do it? NO. Sure, there are laws TODAY in some cities and states today that mandate this, but the whole movement started with high tech business who were competing in the market for scarce resources. Apple for example took a lot of heat in some states (like Texas) where they had sales offices for leading this, but they stuck to their guns and did it anyway.

What do you think would happen to a business today if it refused to service some demographic segments? Their competition would out them out of business very quickly. (Yeah sure, there would be a few backwaters where these types of small businesses might survive, but they are largely irrelevant in the grander schema of freedom, so who cares?)

Paul's reflections had nothing to do with racism. His comments were all about the value of property rights in creating and sustaining a prosperous and decent society. Of course, the brain dead left just doesn't get it because they have never understood why property rights are indispensable to freedom.

That's the bottom line.

jwpegler  posted on  2010-05-26   18:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: A K A Stone (#5) (Edited)

Your "property" in this case is, in your own words, to facilitate the speech that ghe poster deems appropriate. It seems paradoxical to establish a location for free expression while simultaneously and arbitrarily determining WHO may so exercise.

What if your ISP decided not to facilitate websites which so discriminated?

What if, upon entering my establishment which is a pharmacy, before I served you, I questioned if you masturbated and i would refuse to serve you if you don't answer. And I refuse to serve you if your ultimate answer was yes? What if you wanted to buy condoms and I questioned whether they were going to be used out of wedlock?

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-26   20:00:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: war (#8)

in your own words, to facilitate the speech that ghe poster deems appropriate.

Not my words.

All your ifs.......It is a private property owners right to choose who they serve and how they serve them or if they serve them.

I am not personally in favor of doing any of those things. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't have a right to do so.

What gives the govt the right to enforce that behavior? Specifically what article in the constitution? No real need for you to answer though as they have no right to limit our behavior. Either morally or legally.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-26   21:53:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: A K A Stone (#9)

they have no right to limit our behavior. Either morally or legally.

Well, of course morally they have the right. Even a duty.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-26   21:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Abu el Banat (#10)

How so?

For example. Do I have to sell a gun to a black man if I think he is going to shoot me with it?

As a private business owner do I have a right to refuse to let people with guns in my establishment?

I say yes you absolutely have that right. If you are a free man you do.

Now I wouldn't choose to behave that way. But if I so chose then I am allowed to do that.

What gives any man a right to tell another how to behave if they are not physically harming them?

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-26   22:04:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: jwpegler (#7)

While it seems we will disagree on many issues, you are a decent poster on this forum.

Carry on, indeed!

Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!

Brian S  posted on  2010-05-26   22:46:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: A K A Stone (#9) (Edited)

All your ifs.......It is a private property owners right to choose who they serve and how they serve them or if they serve them.

They aren't "ifs". Look up the case Griswold v. Connecticutt.

At what point are such inquiries and disbarrments an infringement upon my rights? Association...commerce...movement...

And I agree government has no right. In fact, government has NO rights. Only powers.

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   7:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: A K A Stone (#11)

No, you don't have to sell a guy a gun he's going to shoot you with, but the government has to control behavior to a certain extent to maintain a civil society. The bigger and more complex the society the more regulating seems to be needed.

Are they good at it? Probably not. But they're trying, and I don't think anyone else would do any better (except Goldi) when it comes right down to it.

Despite all the screw ups the Country's still doing very well.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   13:34:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Abu el Banat (#14)

Despite all the screw ups the Country's still doing very well.

Riiight.

For approximately 72K, BP Oil bought Owe-bama. And as President, he let them Spill, Baby, Spill! Its documented.

Badeye  posted on  2010-05-27   13:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Badeye (#15)

Just because you're going tits up, Boofer...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   13:39:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Badeye (#15)

On the whole, boofer. The big picture.

You can't expect to fuck around on the internet all day and have your business not go bankrupt. People told you that for years, but you wouldn't listen. And now that it's tits up for your crappy business you can't blame the government.

Well, you can, and will, but you know what I mean*






*probably not

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   13:40:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: war (#16)

lol, exactly!

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   13:40:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Abu el Banat (#17)

OUCH (laughing)

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   13:40:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Abu el Banat (#17)

That you don't have a clue what you are talking about on any topic, let alone my business, is always on display, Boo Boo.

For approximately 72K, BP Oil bought Owe-bama. And as President, he let them Spill, Baby, Spill! Its documented.

Badeye  posted on  2010-05-27   13:52:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Abu el Banat (#17)

You can't expect to fuck around on the internet all day and have your business not go bankrupt. People told you that for years, but you wouldn't listen. And now that it's tits up for your crappy business you can't blame the government.

But he's not on the internet all day. He's working. He said so himself in his hundredth post here today.

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-05-27   13:59:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: A K A Stone (#9)

It is a private property owners right to choose who they serve and how they serve them or if they serve them.

Is operating a private business on the public square a right or a privilege?

lucysmom  posted on  2010-05-27   14:05:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: lucysmom (#22)

I think if someone's benefiting from a society it's not unreasonable to expect them to submit to society's rules.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   14:20:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Skip Intro (#21)

Sometimes it takes him 5 or even 10 minutes to reply. It's either a bathroom break or a top-level meeting. Perhaps discussing if they are going to take another pay lowering.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   14:21:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Abu el Banat (#24)

Sometimes it takes him 5 or even 10 minutes to reply.

Boof claims to post on several boards and this one is for amusement only.

As you can see, he takes his amusement quite seriously...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   14:24:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Abu el Banat (#24)

Sometimes it takes him 5 or even 10 minutes to reply.

Surely you don't think this is the only site he posts on? He's on FR as well, has a Facebook page to keep updated, plus who knows how many other sites he graces with his presence.

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-05-27   14:28:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Skip Intro, war (#26)

Yes, I suppose he gets back to us when he can. I'm not complaining. I'm grateful for any wisdom he can throw our way.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   14:30:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Skip Intro, Abu el Banat (#26) (Edited)

It's hard work running a business into the ground...neither of you have ANY idea...do you think it's simply an issue of ignoring it? Hell no...one has to make a conscious effort to find enough distractions... and that takes a level of creativity that neither of you could ever fathom...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   14:31:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Abu el Banat (#27)

I only wish I was smart enough to benefit from his wisdom.

lucysmom  posted on  2010-05-27   14:32:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: war, Abu el Banat (#25)

Boof claims to post on several boards and this one is for amusement only.

Assuming Boof posts 200 times a day (he nearly does that here alone), and it takes him 2 minutes per post, that means this Captain of Industry spends nearly seven hours each day doing nothing but posting.

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-05-27   14:32:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Skip Intro (#30)

Wow...your higher math skills are impressive.

I would have simply said "it has to take up a pissload of time"...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   14:34:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: war (#31)

I would have simply said "it has to take up a pissload of time"...

Well, it does, but he has to leave time to listen to talk radio, watch Fox News on tv, and play with his PS3.

So he is busy, just not productive.

Skip Intro  posted on  2010-05-27   14:36:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Skip Intro (#32)

So he is busy, just not productive.

I think you just gave HIM a new tagline...

#67. To: war (#48) Keep hiding behind the bozo, bozo. (laughing) You've always been a world class pussy. Badeye posted on 2010-01-14 16:12:48 ET Reply Trace

war  posted on  2010-05-27   14:42:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: lucysmom (#22)

Is operating a private business on the public square a right or a privilege?

I would say anyone should be able to do that.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   18:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Abu el Banat (#14)

No person has a right to tell another person who they have to sell to or associate with. How do they get that right to boss you around? Because some people voted on it? I think there is a right and a wrong. It is wrong to command someone else to have a relationship with anyone they don't want to have a relationship with. It is also plainly constitutional.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   18:56:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: A K A Stone (#35) (Edited)

It is also plainly constitutional.

Quick! There's still time to edit.

I think if you run a public business you are benefiting from the society and civilization that has been set up by other people. If you will accept benefit from that then I think you have to accept some regulation of how you operate within it. No one's telling you who gets to sit in your living room.

It's only fair.

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   18:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Abu el Banat (#36)

I think if you run a public business you are benefiting from the society and civilization that has been set up by other people. If you will accept benefit from that then I think you have to accept some regulation of how you operate within it. No one's telling you who gets to sit in your living room.

It's only fair.

I see where you are coming from. But we are individuals and we are allowed to make decisions. There is no reason some magical government can tell us how to behave. Screw them. I will do what I want to do. That wouldn't include excluding doing business with anyone. I even still do jobs for those hindu mother fuckers who almost always want to re negotiate after the job is done. You just have to put your foot down with them. And maybe charge them more for all the hassle.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   19:03:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: A K A Stone (#37)

As part of a civilization you do not get to do whatever you want to do. That is the language of a child. But, hell, I do what I want to do all the time whether it's against the law or not. If I think I won't get caught I do it, for the most part.

But I don't kid myself that I have the right. This idea that we live by some constitution that can't be violated is a fucking pipe dream, buddy. The government over time, one step at a time will do what they either think is right or they want to do it for some other reason, more power, bribes, etc ... constitution or not. It's been the same in every nation since time began. The US is not some magical nation.

(Definitely charge them more for the hassle!)

Hmmm. Interesting ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   19:13:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Abu el Banat (#38)

Here is the way I see it. God made us free moral agents. Sure we are to follow certain rules of society. Like not stealing or killing people. Not defrauding people. I don't think that forcing someone to do business with someone is part of the pact.

I would hope that people would just treat others right without immoral coercion from some group of people elected or not.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   20:56:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: A K A Stone (#39)

Here is the way I see it. God made us free moral agents. Sure we are to follow certain rules of society. Like not stealing or killing people. Not defrauding people. I don't think that forcing someone to do business with someone is part of the pact.

I would hope that people would just treat others right without immoral coercion from some group of people elected or not.

Good post, and points, but there's always going to be those who get their noses out joint.

Goldi: "He is so offensive, he makes me dislike all people of his color."

Murron  posted on  2010-05-27   21:00:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: A K A Stone (#37)

There is no reason some magical government can tell us how to behave. Screw them. I will do what I want to do.

And yet you would tell a woman who does not wish to be pregnant that she must carry a fetus to term. How more invasive can a government get?

lucysmom  posted on  2010-05-27   21:11:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: A K A Stone (#39)

I would hope that people would just treat others right without immoral coercion from some group of people elected or not.

Me too

I endorse this post ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   21:23:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: lucysmom (#41)

And yet you would tell a woman who does not wish to be pregnant that she must carry a fetus to term. How more invasive can a government get?

And you would tell Jack the ripper who does not wish for you to live that he must not satisfy his craving to kill. How more invasive can a government get? Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it. Just like your comment. It is murder. If the bitch didn't want to get pregnant then she should have kept her legs crossed. If babies could talk they would be ripping you a new one right now. Shame on you.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   21:29:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Abu el Banat (#42)

I wouldn't want to see signs that said no blacks, or asians or whatever. If that happened those businesses would be boycotted and it would hurt them more then the people they wouldn't serve.

So by your logic you would agree that any private business would be out of bounds telling me not to bring my firearm to their establishment if I so desired. Yes.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-05-27   21:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: A K A Stone (#43)

And you would tell Jack the ripper who does not wish for you to live that he must not satisfy his craving to kill. How more invasive can a government get? Sounds pretty stupid doesn't it. Just like your comment.

Not just stupid, but irrelevant.

lucysmom  posted on  2010-05-27   22:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: A K A Stone (#44)

you would agree that any private business would be out of bounds telling me not to bring my firearm to their establishment if I so desired.

I would have no problem with that. Welcome to my logic.

I endorse this post ... badeye

Biff Tannen  posted on  2010-05-27   22:39:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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