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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Jesus in his own words
Source: Gospels and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 6, 2023
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2023-10-06 20:29:32 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 2318
Comments: 86

Revelation 22: 12-19

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may enter the gates of the city.

Outside are curs, and drug dealers*, and the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolators, and everyone making and fondling lies.

I, Jesus, send my messenger** to testify these things to you in the assembly***. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star."

*The word is "pharmakeia". A "pharmakon" sold drugs to people to produce the highs and hallucinations that drugs produce. The ancients ascribed these effects to "magic", so old translations in English will say "sorcerers" or "enchanters" here, but that gives rise to the idea of what we would call a wizard, and that's not what Jesus meant at all. He was talking about the people who sold drugs to people to blow their minds. The word he used,"pharmakeia" could most literally be translated as "pharmacist," ut that would definitely give the wrong idea too. Todays pharmacists are not selling "magic" potions to blow people's minds. The proper modern equivalent of "pharmakeia" is "drug dealer".

**"Messenger" is the meaning of the world "angelos". "Angel," in English is "messenger" in English. Translators like to leave the word barely translated, as "angel", which gives rise in English - to a specific thought of a supernatural winged being. Not in Greek. "Angelos" is simply a "messenger,' whether from on high with wings, or a man with sandals. SoJesus said: he sent his messengers - winged angels or sandal-clad men - it's the message that mattered to Jesus, not the particular physical description of the messenger.

***"Assembly" is what the word "ecclesia" translates to. It literally means "those called out" - of a regular meeting to a special assembly. This is always translated into the English word "church", but that really obscures meaning. For English did not come to be until after 1100, and in 1100, the Church - capital C - was an established political structure - the Catholic Church. And "church" also refers to the specific religious buildings..And Jesus is not talking about buildings or political organizations, he is talking about assemblies of people, who follow him. "Church" is a loaded anachronism that Catholics and the Orthodox will seize upon to say "See! See! The Church ALWAYS was." But that is a distortion. Yes, there were always followers of Jesus back to the First Century. But no, they were not following all of the rites and traditions and ideas of the Catholic or Orthodox Church, not in the first century. "Assemblies of people devoted to Jesus" is what the "ecclesia" is. Therefore, the word "assembly" here is precise and apt, not the Anglcism "church", which did not exist for another 1000 years, and which carries with it all sorts of implications that Jesus was not talking about at all.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 45.

#2. To: All (#0) (Edited)

Revelation 21:6-8

..."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the sexually immoral, drug dealers, idolators and liars of every sort, their lot is in the burning lake of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

_________________

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   8:12:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)

drug dealers isnt in the bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   10:10:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

Yes it is.

The word is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists.

It is not "enchanters" or "sorcerers" as it is frequently translated.

Pharmakeia were very specific people in the ancient world. They ran apothecary establishments that specialized in selling pills and potions that would make people high - opium and its derivatives. light dosages of strichinine that have the same effect.

In the ancient world they did not understand chemistry, so they thought they were selling "magic". The "magic" drugs did exactly the same things that the same drugs do today in our society: destroyed lives, crazed people running around. But this was neither illegal nor suppressed in ancient society. So, you had unregulated legal drug abuse everywhere, sold by pharmakeia, to blow people's minds. That's precisely who Jesus was addressing.

So, how do you translate that? "Pharmacists" would be the exact translation, but it would be completely misunderstood by almost everybody. Pharmacists go into the Lake of Fire? What? Why? They are just dispensers of medication. There was nothing medical about what pharmakeia did. They were peddling drug "magic" to get people high. "Magician", "enchanter" or "sorcerer" are the usual translations, but they completely miss the mark, and imply that Jesus was condemning actual magic, which does not exist. Secondly, it misses the point that Jesus was specifically talking about peddlers of DRUG "magic", who had all of the same terrible effects on people as drug dealing does today. Jesus was addressing a specific evil - drug peddling - and he used the specific word for that "pharmakeia".

Drug dealers are and were real, and produced all of the horrible effects on people and societies in 100 AD as they do today. Jesus put them on his list of the damned: pharmacists - pharmakeia. That is EXACTLY what the word means. Yes, it IS in the Bible, right there. Twice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   10:49:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

your thread might be useless since you used modern translation and not the transpation from 400 years earlier. i guess you think god is week and cant preserve his word. King James is accurate. NIV is fullof errors. whatever "version" you used is infamilar and changes words.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   11:50:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: A K A Stone (#5)

Actually, I use a Greek interlinear. I was looking directly at the Greek.

My thread IS useless here, however. Stony hearts.

If we were to go on, you may well see a great number of things you have not seen before. But all you're going to do is fight me on every one. So why bother expending the time on it?

I suppose I could just use the KJV, to please you. But then we would be missing the reality of what Jesus said. He wasn't talking about wizards in Revelation, he was specifically talking about people who blew people's minds with "magic" drugs, a REAL scourge in his age and ours. Wizards have never been a scourge in any age, because they don't really exist. But pharmakeia certainly did, and do.

You don't want to hear it.

And I'm tired of it already.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Vicomte13 (#7)

well see a great number of things you have not seen before.

I'm sure we would. I'm pretty certain you have read the Bible more than me and I could learn something from you. But that doesn't mean I will always agree with you.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:20:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#9)

Well, you ought agree with me on PHARMACISTS, because it's SO OBVIOUS it shouldn't be controversial. The Greek here is "pharmakeia", for God's sake!

The traditional translations have "sorcerers" and "enchanters" - which were things that people were worried about in the 1500s nd 1600s when the traditional translations were made. JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

And the problem of drugs is very REAL. The problem of witches boiling their cauldrons and casting spells, the crazy ideas of 1500? Those never were real, and we stopped doing all of that before 1700, because it was obviously crazy and dark and evil - burning old women as witches was nuts. Opposing pharmacists selling heroin? THAT was real. It wasn't happening in 1500, but it WAS very much happening in the Greek east of Jesus' time, just as it happens today.

Your "disagreement" with me is refusing to see a word that's right THERE, in black and white on the printed page! "Pharmakeia" IS Pharmacist, and it's a drug dealer, not a "sorcerer".

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:29:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#15)

JESUS was worried about pharmacists, who openly sold heroin to the masses so they could experience the "magic" of the high, THEY believed it was magic, but we know what it is: drugs.

I don't really disagree with you here. I don't think I do. Except consider this. Magic isn't as in a magic trick but is the effects of the drugs.

So we are not really that far apart imo.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:31:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: A K A Stone (#17)

We're not far apart on that. The ancients THOUGHT it was magic, because of the effects, certainly. But JESUS didn't give a general prescription against all of the supersitions of the Greeks. He focused on those who sold the "magic" drugs and said they were headed into the fire. So, the general populace at the time was superstitious and wrong, but Jesus wasn't playing to their superstitions, he was focusing on the truth: the people peddling the "magic" drugs were bad people because of that, so off to the fire with them.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:38:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: All (#20)

Revelation 16;15

(KJV)

"Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keeping his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

(My Greek text)

"Lo, I am coming as a thief. Happy is he that is watching and keeping his garments, that he not be walking naked and they be observing his shame."

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   18:43:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Vicomte13 (#28)

Would you agree that happy and blessed are very different?

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   19:38:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: A K A Stone (#30)

Not in Greek, no. The word is "makarios" which is probably best expressed as "fortunate".

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   20:24:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: All (#31)

"Happy" is probably too light a translation of "makarios". "Joyful, because of great fortune", is the sense of the world. The very wealthy and the gods of the Greeks were "makarios", because they had everything. "Blessed" would be a good word in English, but the religious connotation is not limited to Jesus and God. The Greek gods and human plutocrats were said to me "makarious" - extreme joy, having not a care in the world, living the life of Reilly - these are the connotations of this word. It is happy, but REALLY happy, because of all of the...well...blessings that one had. "Ecstatic" might be a good English equivalent, although the root word of "ecstatic" is "ecstasy", which refers to a trance-like state, and that is NOT the connotation of "makarios".

So the connotation is one of extreme joy, such as a billionaire would enjoy. Applying to plebeian people full of faith, but without means, is pretty subversive of Jesus, really. He is comparing those who have him as being that of the wealthiest, the most powerful and secure, like the gods of Olympus even. A state of extended happiness that can only be enjoyed by the privileged few is offered to everybody who follows Jesus, even if they remain dirt poor in means. Having Jesus gives on transcendent joy. "Happy" downplays that (in English); 'makarios" is more than simply happiness. But "blessed" has a wholly religious connotation that "makarios" does not have.

The Germans have an expression: "Wie der Lieber Gott im Frankreich" - "to live like God in France" - which implies to have it made, to have it all, to be joyfully at ease, wanting nothing, in a place more beautiful than here. That's "makarios". The joy of the super rich and the gods, not a care in the world.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   22:19:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#32)

But "blessed" has a wholly religious connotation that "makarios" does not have.

I just go with what the King James says.

But here is what google said

Makarios was the supreme blessing. Makarios is used in the Septuagint (the Greek version of the Old Testament) to describe the results of living right. It was the state of the righteous. If you enjoyed the blessings of this world, it was because you had been living right. You were being blessed.Jun 17, 2021

www.google.com/search? q=MAKAORIS+BLESSED+MEANING&oq=MAKAORIS+BLESSED+MEANING&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvb WUyBggAEEUYOdIBCDc0MTNqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:03:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: All (#36)

Also to your post 32. To me it seems when people try to reinterpret the Bible in better words. That means they don't have faith in God being able to give us his word.

All the mumbo jumbo is above my pay grade.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:05:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: A K A Stone (#37)

The problem with that, quite simply, is that the Bible is in koine Greek, not English. If you’re reading it in English, you are reading a translators interpretation.

Those typos are not typos. I copied and pasted the actual King James Bible. It was written in the English of 1611,. The “King James” Bible in modern English is itself an interpretation of the King James Bible. They are not iidentical except for updated English. Some word meanings are said to have changed.

You wanted the KJV, I am using the actual KJV. If you tell me that some later translation, in the KJV style, is ALSO inerrant, as far as you are concerned, then I will use that specific text. So, you tell me which text you will accept, and I’ll use that one.

The issues here are not issues of translation. They are issues of accepting what Jesus said.

So, tell me which Bible to use. The KJV looks like it’s full of typos to you. So what do you want me to use?

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   16:14:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Vicomte13 (#39)

You wanted the KJV, I am using the actual KJV.

Fair enough.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-08   16:18:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: A K A Stone (#41)

I CAN use a more modern translation, a modernized KJV, so the spellings and verb tenses won’t be so weird. I do not want the text itself to be a stumbling block. You tell me what you want me to use, and I will use it. Jesus says essentially the same thing in all of them that are decent.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-08   16:59:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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