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Bible Study
See other Bible Study Articles

Title: Jesus in his own words
Source: Gospels and Revelation
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 6, 2023
Author: Vicomte13
Post Date: 2023-10-06 20:29:32 by Vicomte13
Keywords: None
Views: 2337
Comments: 86

Revelation 22: 12-19

"Lo! I am coming swiftly, and my wage is with me, to pay each according to his works. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Happy are those who are rinsing their robes, that it will be their license to the tree of life, and they may enter the gates of the city.

Outside are curs, and drug dealers*, and the sexually immoral, and murderers, and idolators, and everyone making and fondling lies.

I, Jesus, send my messenger** to testify these things to you in the assembly***. I am the root and the race of David, the resplendent morning star."

*The word is "pharmakeia". A "pharmakon" sold drugs to people to produce the highs and hallucinations that drugs produce. The ancients ascribed these effects to "magic", so old translations in English will say "sorcerers" or "enchanters" here, but that gives rise to the idea of what we would call a wizard, and that's not what Jesus meant at all. He was talking about the people who sold drugs to people to blow their minds. The word he used,"pharmakeia" could most literally be translated as "pharmacist," ut that would definitely give the wrong idea too. Todays pharmacists are not selling "magic" potions to blow people's minds. The proper modern equivalent of "pharmakeia" is "drug dealer".

**"Messenger" is the meaning of the world "angelos". "Angel," in English is "messenger" in English. Translators like to leave the word barely translated, as "angel", which gives rise in English - to a specific thought of a supernatural winged being. Not in Greek. "Angelos" is simply a "messenger,' whether from on high with wings, or a man with sandals. SoJesus said: he sent his messengers - winged angels or sandal-clad men - it's the message that mattered to Jesus, not the particular physical description of the messenger.

***"Assembly" is what the word "ecclesia" translates to. It literally means "those called out" - of a regular meeting to a special assembly. This is always translated into the English word "church", but that really obscures meaning. For English did not come to be until after 1100, and in 1100, the Church - capital C - was an established political structure - the Catholic Church. And "church" also refers to the specific religious buildings..And Jesus is not talking about buildings or political organizations, he is talking about assemblies of people, who follow him. "Church" is a loaded anachronism that Catholics and the Orthodox will seize upon to say "See! See! The Church ALWAYS was." But that is a distortion. Yes, there were always followers of Jesus back to the First Century. But no, they were not following all of the rites and traditions and ideas of the Catholic or Orthodox Church, not in the first century. "Assemblies of people devoted to Jesus" is what the "ecclesia" is. Therefore, the word "assembly" here is precise and apt, not the Anglcism "church", which did not exist for another 1000 years, and which carries with it all sorts of implications that Jesus was not talking about at all.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 22.

#2. To: All (#0) (Edited)

Revelation 21:6-8

..."I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be his God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the sexually immoral, drug dealers, idolators and liars of every sort, their lot is in the burning lake of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

_________________

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   8:12:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Vicomte13 (#2)

drug dealers isnt in the bible.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   10:10:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

Yes it is.

The word is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists.

It is not "enchanters" or "sorcerers" as it is frequently translated.

Pharmakeia were very specific people in the ancient world. They ran apothecary establishments that specialized in selling pills and potions that would make people high - opium and its derivatives. light dosages of strichinine that have the same effect.

In the ancient world they did not understand chemistry, so they thought they were selling "magic". The "magic" drugs did exactly the same things that the same drugs do today in our society: destroyed lives, crazed people running around. But this was neither illegal nor suppressed in ancient society. So, you had unregulated legal drug abuse everywhere, sold by pharmakeia, to blow people's minds. That's precisely who Jesus was addressing.

So, how do you translate that? "Pharmacists" would be the exact translation, but it would be completely misunderstood by almost everybody. Pharmacists go into the Lake of Fire? What? Why? They are just dispensers of medication. There was nothing medical about what pharmakeia did. They were peddling drug "magic" to get people high. "Magician", "enchanter" or "sorcerer" are the usual translations, but they completely miss the mark, and imply that Jesus was condemning actual magic, which does not exist. Secondly, it misses the point that Jesus was specifically talking about peddlers of DRUG "magic", who had all of the same terrible effects on people as drug dealing does today. Jesus was addressing a specific evil - drug peddling - and he used the specific word for that "pharmakeia".

Drug dealers are and were real, and produced all of the horrible effects on people and societies in 100 AD as they do today. Jesus put them on his list of the damned: pharmacists - pharmakeia. That is EXACTLY what the word means. Yes, it IS in the Bible, right there. Twice.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   10:49:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Vicomte13 (#4)

your thread might be useless since you used modern translation and not the transpation from 400 years earlier. i guess you think god is week and cant preserve his word. King James is accurate. NIV is fullof errors. whatever "version" you used is infamilar and changes words.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   11:50:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: A K A Stone (#5)

"King James is accurate."

I agree. All these efforts to "modernize" the biblical language just opens The Bible up to misinterpretations by those with bad intentions...MUD

Mudboy Slim  posted on  2023-10-07   11:54:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Mudboy Slim (#6)

You are dead wrong.

The PROBLEM is that the Bible was written in Greek. Now, look at this particular case: the Greek is "pharmakeia" - pharmacists. It is a direct reference to the drug peddlers of the ancient world who sold drugs as "magic". But THAT magic had REAL effects, as heroin does on people. And in a society where it was not illegal, well, imagine if pharmacists were selling heroin, cocaine and meth casually every day? Think how bad the society would be. Ancient society was like that, BECAUSE drug dealers were free to operate. That's what "pharmakeia" - phermacists - WERE, that's what they DID, and that is what Jesus explicitly referred to.

So, now, look at the translation you are insisting on. The KJV translates "pharmacists" as "sorcerers" or "enchanters". That was the medieval mindset. There is no doubt that the ancients thought they were selling magic potions in their drugs - look how powerful the high is. But it was DRUGS they were selling - pharmacists - not general purpose spells and incantations and all that nonsense. Real drugs. Jesus focused on the drug dealers - the pharmacists.

If you read the archaic translations, you would think that Jesus was warning against wizards, sorcerers, as if that is a real thing. You can SEE in the Greek EXACTLY what he was really referring to - it's practically English.

So, are you willing to open your eyes to the TRUTH of what Jesus actually SAID?

Or are you going to be so narrow minded and traditional that you're going to stick with a translation from the same Greek into the English of the late Middle Ages, when they were burning witches!, and assert that the translation of "pharmacists" to "sorcerers" is truer to the meaning of Jesus than "drug dealers", which is what Jesus SAID. What is a "pharmacist".

Now, instead of actually dealing with the issue - that the old traditional translation here is MISTAKEN, and presents words that Jesus DID NOT SAY, and makes what he appears to say very weird - you're going to draw up into the dignity of the older English translation, because it's old.

This is EXACTLY what Jesus excoriated the Pharisees, Priests and Scribes for: loving their TRADITIONS more than Truth.

There is nothing wrong with the KJV. But it is just a translations, and SOME places in it, the words are really inapt. This is one very clear case.

But you people are going to fight for your TRADITIONS over the actual words of Jesus.

So how about I just use the Greek transliteration then: PHARMACISTS are damned to the lake of eternal fire. Not "sorcerers". "Pharmakeia" does not mean sorcerer in ancient or modern Greek. And it never did.

You will not yield the point will you?

Ask yourself: is this because I am clinging to my traditional language more than to the ACTUAL WORDS OF JESUS?

Yes, it is.

Jesus encountered it in life - the traditions of the Pharisees.

And his words are encountering the same thing again in our age, right here, from you.

Perhaps you PREFER to believe (wrongly) that Jesus meant "sorcerers", that Jesus was warning about magic users. That THIS was the problem of his age, not pharmacists selling heroin and blowing people's minds.

Go ahead and believe that. Nobody is going to stop you. Your tradition wins out. Jesus' actual words, they lose. You're ultimately poorer for it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:22:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Vicomte13 (#11)

You can SEE in the Greek EXACTLY what he was really referring to

I'm sure the translators knew more about Greek than anyone on this forum. I also think God inspired and guided their writing.

You talked about Sorcery and drug use. That is the true meaning not the modern movies that make it into something else. I don't if I conveyed my thoughts good enough but I gotta go and will continue later.

Thanks.

A K A Stone  posted on  2023-10-07   12:28:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: A K A Stone (#14)

In the 1500s? No they didn't. They did not have access to Greeks. They were English and Germans, translating Ancient Greek, without Greeks. It was from book learning.

Greeks can READ the Ancient Greek. It's archaic, but it's not a foreign language. We can read Chaucer and Shakespeare, because they are in our language. And educated Greeks can, with a little experience, read Ancient Greek, it's not a totally foreign tongue.

In 1500 the Western translators did not have access to Greeks. The Greeks were under the Turks at the time. WE have access to millions of Greeks. And our understanding of Greek is MUCH better than ANY Westerner's understanding of Greek in the Middle Ages.

So what you are left with is the claim that the KJV translation is inspired by the Holy Spirit, and so is right in all cases anyway. You don't find that IN the Bible, of course. You just believe it.

WHY do you believe it?

Because you believe it.

But WHY? Based on what?

The Holy Spirit.

Ah, so God TELLS you that this is right then, so it's right.

God tells me differently.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:35:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: All (#19)

But you know what? I'm just going to use the KJV translation from here on out, the words of Jesus as translated there. Where I have to make clarifications, as with "messengers" and "pharmacists", I will. But if the text of the translation is a stumbling block, I'll just remove that stumbling block and use your text. It scarcely matters.

But it IS more work. I already have all of the texts selected to present. Now I have to add the step of converting them from the basic translation from the Greek INTO the KJV. So everything will just take longer. Fine. Whatever.

Vicomte13  posted on  2023-10-07   12:42:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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