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Title: Misleading MSN Article: The AR-15 and America's love of military-style weapons
Source: MSN
URL Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t ... tO0?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp
Published: Feb 23, 2018
Author: staff
Post Date: 2018-02-23 13:28:14 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 7486
Comments: 76

Time and again, America's worst mass shootings have featured a common thread: the killer's use of a military-style assault rifle that is inexpensive, easy to use and deadly efficient.

The type of weapon, commonly known as the AR-15, is once again under scrutiny with critics calling for a ban after last week's massacre at a Florida high school that left 17 people dead.

- Why are AR-15s so lethal? -

The AR-15 is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning a user can fire off multiple shots in quick succession. Its cousin, the M-16, is a fully automatic version that has been used by the US military since Vietnam. Fully automatic weapons are banned for civilians.

AR-15s fire high-velocity .223-caliber bullets that are accurate over long distances and cause expansive, devastating wounds to soft tissue and internal organs.

These bullets – which travel at triple the speed of a handgun round – are popular among hunters for hitting targets up to a quarter of a mile (400 meters) away.

Stephen Paddock, the killer in last October's mass shooting in Las Vegas, had amassed an arsenal of weapons including assault rifles. He fired more than 1,100 rounds from a hotel suite into a crowd of concertgoers more than 400 yards (meters) away.

The toll was 58 dead and more than 800 injured, making it the deadliest mass shooting in recent US history.

- Cheap and easy -

Buying an AR-15 is easy. Depending on the state of residence, a prospective owner can walk into a gun shop and, after presenting a valid ID, buy a rifle or shotgun provided they can pass a federal background check.

This process looks at a buyer's criminal history or whether he has ever been committed to a mental institution. But even this cursory check can be flouted in the case of private sales.

Nikolas Cruz, the man police say carried out last week's massacre at a Florida high school, had legally purchased the AR-15-type weapon used in the attack and had passed an FBI background check.

Aged just 18 at the time, the review didn't raise any red flags. In many states, one only needs to be 18 to buy an assault rifle – three years below the American age restriction on alcohol.

Many Americans can simply go online and order weapons for delivery. AR-15s vary in price but can be bought for as little as $500.

The National Rifle Association (NRA) touts them for recreational target practice, hunting and home defense, although experts question their value for the latter two uses.

Part of the reason for assault weapons' popularity in America is that they are widely customizable, with owners able to add scopes, large-capacity magazines and a plethora of other accessories.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives doesn't know how many assault weapons there are in America – they are prohibited by federal law from keeping a gun registry database.

According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry currently sells an estimated 1.3 million "modern sporting rifles and similar types of guns" each year.

Estimates vary, but there are thought to be as many guns as people in America, which has a population of more than 320 million.

Assault weapons were banned in 1994 under president Bill Clinton, but the restriction lapsed in 2004 amid pressure from the powerful NRA, and congressional efforts to renew the prohibition since then have failed.

- Bump stocks -

Vegas gunman Paddock increased the firing rate of the assault rifles he used with the addition of a "bump stock." Largely unheard of outside of America, these legal devices essentially turn a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one.

The devices clip on to the back end of a rifle and harness the gun's recoil to bounce the weapon's trigger off the user's finger.

So, instead of a gunman having to squeeze the trigger repeatedly, the bump stock does the work for him, allowing him to empty a magazine in seconds.

President Donald Trump announced Tuesday he would support moves to ban the devices, and the NRA has said bump stocks "should be subject to additional regulations."


Did you notice the tone of the MSM - MSN Article was from "military-style weapons" to "Assault Weapons"; it is important as the MSM is seducing average Americans into a blind alley: all of these firearms are semi-automatic in nature; and they do not necessarily appear as "assault weapons."

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#37. To: Tooconservative (#36) (Edited)

And believe it or not, an AR set up with a short barrel, doesn't suffer much noticeable decreased accuracy when compared to the 16 inch or longer barreled varieties.

When I did transition drills (practicing going from rifle to sidearm, if the rifle empties or jams), I set up white balloons at 100 yards and we went through a lot of balloons.

Many states have idiotic laws against AR's with shorter than 16' barrels, so keep that in mind.

I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح

GrandIsland  posted on  2018-02-25   7:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Tooconservative (#35)
(Edited)

Where would you buy a new one now? Or find the parts to build one?

I don't know where you can buy a new one because I haven't looked. The prime thing to consider if you want to buy one is to buy a "metric" version,not the British version. Lots more parts available,and they mostly aren't interchangeable.

NATO got rid of theirs for political reasons,not functional reasons.

The parts kits dried up because there was a ban on importing them when President Bubba,the patron saint of virtue,signed a law banning them from importation as Assault Weapons.

You can still buy parts kits here:

https://www.sargesmilitarysurplus.com/product/imbel-fn-fal/

that are Brazilian. You can buy new Semi-Auto receivers from them,or a few other sources. The good news is the parts kits come with new hammer forged military barrels that will last a LONG time.

If you say "huh?" when someone says the word "headspace",do NOT try to put a kit together. Take it to a competent gunsmith that and have him do it.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-25   8:59:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Tooconservative (#36)

These newer AR-15 pistol designs are very interesting. Cute even. They look like so much fun.

If I was hanging out blasting away at the local gun club a lot, I would enjoy those.

Never mind my suggestion to buy a FN-FAL. You just want to blast away while being stylish. I think you would be happiest with something like a semi-auto Uzi,MAC-10,etc,etc,etc.

FN-FAL's are Main Battle Rifles. I guess you could put one together in .223 if you wanted,but it would be expensive and you would still have a .223 when you are done.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-25   9:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: sneakypete, GrandIsland (#39)

Never mind my suggestion to buy a FN-FAL. You just want to blast away while being stylish.

Not really. It's like being tempted by a sports car when you're shopping for a pickup or SUV. You're tempted but stick to shopping for the practical vehicle.

The FN-FAL is still considered one of the best (or the best) battle rifle of the Cold War era, going by reliability and ergonomics. You still see people making YouTube vids about it. No doubt, a fine gun. It surprises me that no one ever licensed the design to produce their own versions in large numbers. The FN-FAL has a better reputation than other guns who did get licensed and cloned by the millions. Like the endless stream of AK-47s and AR-15s. Experts don't seem to consider the AKs and ARs made for the civilian market to be in the same class of battle rifle as the FN-FAL.

BTW, just how many people do just want to blast away while being stylish down at the range with their shooting buddies? Having fun guns that you just like may contribute to practice time. The gun you actually shoot regularly is more valuable than the "serious battle rifle" that just sits in your closet, awaiting the zombie apocalypse, the attack of Google's SkyNet robot hordes, or Civil War II when America's all-gay all-tranny military goes door to door to take our guns.

Besides, I am enough of a killjoy already. Maybe I should give fun a chance. But I am much more likely to be 1) cheap and 2) practical. It's a character defect. Or I'm just getting old.     : )

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-25   10:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: GrandIsland, sneakypete (#37)

And believe it or not, an AR set up with a short barrel, doesn't suffer much noticeable decreased accuracy when compared to the 16 inch or longer barreled varieties.

I've heard this before. Does that tells us something about the AR itself? Surely that has occurred to you as well.

I keep wondering if I'd get much more out of an AR-15 than these Kriss Vector Gen II SDP-SB. I don't care much about the reduced recoil but that barrel stabilization really does interest me.

In general, I think we are seeing something of a trend toward these pistols-as-SBRs, more so among younger shooters. We're seeing pretty huge numbers of people willing to do the ATF paperwork for SBR and for suppressors.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-25   10:30:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Tooconservative (#27)

I probably want a scope, not too high-end, along with a red-dot sight.

Check out the Vortex SPARC II red dot. $200. 2 MOA dot. Waterproof. Dust caps. Auto power off. Multi-Height Mounting System. Unlimited lifetime warranty (Fully transferable).

misterwhite  posted on  2018-02-25   11:00:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: misterwhite (#42) (Edited)

Check out the Vortex SPARC II red dot. $200.

Good price for a scope that works on everything from pistols to rifles to shotguns. They seem to have a lot of happy customers that compare these to scopes costing 2-3 times as much.

But does it have Bluetooth 4.0? LOL

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-25   11:23:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Tooconservative (#40) (Edited)

BTW, just how many people do just want to blast away while being stylish down at the range with their shooting buddies? Having fun guns that you just like may contribute to practice time. The gun you actually shoot regularly is more valuable than the "serious battle rifle" that just sits in your closet, awaiting the zombie apocalypse, the attack of Google's SkyNet robot hordes, or Civil War II when America's all-gay all-tranny military goes door to door to take our guns.

I have two kinds of rifles. One is for extreme accuracy,and the other type is like my M-1 Garand and my FN-FAL,practical types that I shoot at pop up targets at ranges out to 500 meters using iron sights and surplus ammo.

I care nothing for rapid fire,and everything for hitting what I shoot at.

Don't get me wrong. In MY mind there is nothing wrong with "sport shooting" if rapid fire and/or point shooting with a rifle are fun for you. It just ain't for me.

Ironically enough,it's just the opposite for me with handguns. Shooting at bullseyes bores me to tears. I used to do stuff like scatter golf balls around the yard,and then spin and snap-shoot at them. Since they are all different distances away this isn't something you want to do if you get upset about missing occasionally. It sure is fun when you hit one with a 200 gr 45 bullet,though. Or was,before my eyes started getting bad and I started getting arthritis in my hands and fingers. I still shoot,but only at snakes.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-25   21:00:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: sneakypete (#44)

I have two kinds of rifles. One is for extreme accuracy,and the other type is like my M-1 Garand and my FN-FAL,practical types that I shoot at pop up targets at ranges out to 500 meters using iron sights and surplus ammo.

I looked more and those FN-FAL's are really scarce compared to what they were. Yours may be a lot more collectible than you realize. I'll keep looking around but it seems everyone who has 'em wants to keep 'em.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-25   23:08:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Tooconservative (#45)

I looked more and those FN-FAL's are really scarce compared to what they were. Yours may be a lot more collectible than you realize. I'll keep looking around but it seems everyone who has 'em wants to keep 'em.

Mine will be sold at my estate sale,not before. I love being able to adjust the gas piston to "tune" it to the particular batch of ammo I am shooting to either reduce recoil or guarantee reliability.

And yes,you can actually FEEL the difference in recoil between 7.62x51 rounds created for different armies. Seems like the stuff that came in from Israel was the hottest,and it also seemed like Israel had more of the fitted out as squad auto-weapons with MUCH heavier barrels to take the heat of auto fire. The Israely FN-FAL's were noticeably heavier than the others,too.

All the European Armies gave up on the FN-FAL because the US insisted that all NATO nations use the same calibers for simplicity of supply reasons,so they all switched over to .223/5.56mm from .308/762x51mm.

This is the real reason the US Military switched over to 9mm pistols and did away with the beloved 1911A1 and the 45 ACP round. Politics can be defined as a system where "you have to give something away to get something in return",and the AR manufacturers in the northeast needed the money.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   9:06:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: sneakypete (#46) (Edited)

All the European Armies gave up on the FN-FAL because the US insisted that all NATO nations use the same calibers for simplicity of supply reasons,so they all switched over to .223/5.56mm from .308/762x51mm.

Cheaper vs. better. I'm sure you've heard that speculation that NATO was more interested in wounding than killing because if you kill, you only take out one soldier but if you wound, it takes two guys to come haul the wounded guy away. It's a wry debate.

And you are right that choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects. Would we have the AR-15 market of today were it not for this adoption of its ammo? Surplus ammo prices can help determine the choices people (and armed forces and police) make for decades to come. And the arms and ammo manufacturers certainly know this.

BTW, it seems that Sarge's Military Surplus has lost its server 'cause I can't load it. Hopefully you have other sources for parts. You probably have the most important parts already stockpiled.

I don't want to buy any EU products much but I am more impressed with the price/quality of those CZ arms. Modern military designs, prices aren't that much more than good quality AR-15 gear. I keep telling myself that I should stop caring about any hunting potential for these firearms. It would make things a lot simpler. Then I could reduce the criteria to 1) fun to shoot and 2) good for home defense and Civil War II/zombies/Skynet.

I like these sub-guns and AR-15 pistol carbines but you still just have .223 or handgun calibers. I know they aren't considered serious firearms but I think that is where a large part of the market is going, especially the under-40 shooters.

I dislike having to think about how dominant the .223 and the handgun ammos are and how that affects my purchase criteria. It goes back to your points about the politics of calibers and how decisions made by NATO powers decades ago affect the price of shooting today and the prices of guns overall.

I'm looking more at the Springfield Patriot AR-15s, both the full-size and the sub-gun version, mostly at the full-size rifle. They have good quality, good reviews, solid reputation from a historic manufacturer, cheap ammo, huge variety of AR accessories, etc. For ~$800 for the gun, you could add cheap optics/laser/flashlight and still not be much over $1000 before you start stockpiling some ammo. But I just don't like the .223 ammo as well as the .308. People pay more for the .308s because it is a better class of ammo. But the ammo costs a lot more and weighs twice as much. Well, the debate over .223 vs .308 never ends.

Of course, I could always compromise between .223 and .308 and choose something like a Ruger Mini-30 and use the AK47/SKS ammo. They can be had for ~$800 like the decent AR-15s. I am a little reticent because I bought a Glock 23 in .40S&W, compromising between the lighter/cheaper 9mm models and the heavier/more-lethal .45. You see the parallels here to my .223 vs .308 choices. Sometimes you end up just feeling you've compromised without gaining the advantages and satisfaction of going with either of the major popular platforms.

I just haven't found the gun yet that makes me say, "Yeah, that's it. That's the gun I can be happy with for years to come and want to shoot enough to be decent with it." I already have some guns I never shoot and I should probably just sell them or give them to my brother. I don't want to buy another gun whose only use is getting cleaned and oiled. Hence, my mentions of "fun guns" which you no doubt find a little annoying.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-26   11:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Tooconservative (#47) (Edited)

I'm sure you've heard that speculation that NATO was more interested in wounding than killing

Given the tumbling nature of the .223,

That's a speculative pantload.

[223 FMJ designed to tumble (explained)]

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums /ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1471014

etc etc,

https://www.google.com/search?q=tumbling+.223

 

A Full Metal pantload? IT happens.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   12:44:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: VxH (#48)

Given the tumbling nature of the .223,

I thought the whole tumbling thing was considered even more unlikely than the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory.

We hear this stuff year after year or decade after decade but we don't seem to get any final and undisputed answers. It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-26   13:01:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Tooconservative (#49)

It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends.

The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it.

You might recall that was before Algore invented the Interwebs.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   13:04:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Tooconservative (#47) (Edited)

choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects.

The lower mass of a .22 or .223 has long lasting effect.

On a less than successful fishing trip, my dad shot a rabbit for dinner from maybe 10 yards with the .22 stash gun he kept that fit in a pack of cigarettes.

When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity.

It instilled a healthy respect for the "little" bullets fired by the .22 bolt action rifle I got for Christmas 'bout that time.

Good lesson he taught.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   13:16:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Tooconservative (#49) (Edited)

the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory.

You don't shoot center mass to wound.

That's the aiming point taught on any American military or police academy firing line.

It's called lethal force for a reason.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   13:27:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: VxH (#51)

When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity.

The .22 is a surprising little round. It can also disappoint in major ways.

I've read that same thing many times, about .22 rounds just wandering around the body, wreaking havoc as they go. And then there are the other stories like "don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad". We've all heard this stuff, a lot more than we've ever seen serious studies and proof of how true it is.

The mob hitmen used to prefer high-end .22s with crafted loads or so I've read. But they really knew what they were doing with one.

One reason I'm hesitating over the AR-15 is that it is still just a souped-up .22, however high its velocity. It just seems, well, too light. OTOH, the bullets cost half as much and weigh half as much. As the Russkies used to say, quantity has a quality all its own but that philosophy never won the Cold War for them either.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-26   13:49:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: VxH (#50)

The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it.

Maybe your instructors were just repeating gun gossip.

Tooconservative  posted on  2018-02-26   13:51:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Tooconservative (#53)

"don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad".

The consensus around the extended LEO family campfire conversations I grew up listening to was that getting shot with a .22 was not such a trivial matter.

I've never found their wisdom to be unreliable.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   13:59:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Tooconservative (#54) (Edited)

Maybe your instructors were just repeating gun gossip.

Some of them had seen and used the M16 in action in Viet Nam. The instructors, many of whom had just returned from VN, who ran the Boy Scout firing lines at the camps we went to in the 60's & 70's all taught the same thing: Small caliber bullets are not trivial.

The physics aren't that hard to understand.

And the same "gossip" was repeated in first aid classes in Basic - and at 91A medical specialist school in 1989.

* The casualty has no exit wound.
* Where is the bullet and what are the possible associated complications of related internal injuries?

It's not going to be resting in the hole like in the movies. And people don't immediately fall down and die when they get shot, either. That's a strategic advantage to those who plan accordingly. Common sense.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   14:14:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Tooconservative (#47)

You probably have the most important parts already stockpiled.

I do. I have them stored in an object I call a "rifle". Maybe not a clever hiding place,but there's not much danger of me forgetting where they are stored.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   14:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Tooconservative (#49)

I thought the whole tumbling thing was considered even more unlikely than the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory.

We hear this stuff year after year or decade after decade but we don't seem to get any final and undisputed answers. It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends.

Sometimes it does,and sometimes it doesn't. It will tumble if it hits a big bone at the right angle,and the point isn't what strikes the bone.

It's definitely not something you can count on. I'm old-fashioned,and I put my faith in bullet placement above all. Put a 22 short in someone's eye socket,and you can move on to worry about something else.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   14:42:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: VxH (#50) (Edited)

The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it.

I heard the same thing when I was issued one at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15.

BTW,IRRC,the early,pre-bolt assist AR-15's has a slower rifling twist in the barrel,and that might be the source of the early "tumbling" stories. The twist just wasn't quick enough to stabilize the bullet before it left the muzzle,so it would "yaw" on the way to the target,causing it to tumble when it hit.

I am not sure of the date so DO NOT quote me on this,but I THINK that by 1967 they had quicker twists in the barrel for more bullet stabilization and accuracy. I seriously doubt that "tumbling" was ever seen as anything other than an indicator that a faster twist was needed. This is especially true of the early 60's,when everyone in the military were experienced with Garands and M-14's

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   14:49:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: VxH (#51)

choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects.

The lower mass of a .22 or .223 has long lasting effect.

On a less than successful fishing trip, my dad shot a rabbit for dinner from maybe 10 yards with the .22 stash gun he kept that fit in a pack of cigarettes.

When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity.

It instilled a healthy respect for the "little" bullets fired by the .22 bolt action rifle I got for Christmas 'bout that time.

Good lesson he taught.

Yes,but it is a REQUIREMENT that military rifle ammo MUST be able to penetrate body armor and a certain thickness of wood. Tumbling bullets will not do this.

If you ever have the time,read General Julian Hatcher's "Hatchers Notebook" for fascinating (if you are anal enough to be a target shooter,anyway) insights into ballistics and bullet designs,as well as the military requirements for different weapons.

Hatcher was one of the small arms development honchos at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds brain-trust,and if he didn't know it,it didn't exist. IIRC,he was on the acceptance board for the 03 Springfield,but was most likely also involved with the development of the 30/40 Krag rifle and ammunition,the first truly modern rifle fielded by the US Army.

I made the mistake of lending mine to a guy I taught how to reload,then taught how to build rifles about 20 years ago,and it never seems to find it's way back home.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   14:59:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Tooconservative (#53)

I've read that same thing many times, about .22 rounds just wandering around the body, wreaking havoc as they go. And then there are the other stories like "don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad". We've all heard this stuff, a lot more than we've ever seen serious studies and proof of how true it is.

A 22 LR hollowpoint to the head will kill you graveyard dead 100 times out of 100,unless it is a glancing blow.

All you can kill anyone is dead.

The US Army Special Forces,the US Navy Seals,and the British SAS all issue silenced 22 caliber rim fire semi-autos to teams for covert work. These people know a thing or two about certain things.

One nickname they are called is "hush puppies" because they handy for taking out guard dogs.

In WW-2 Colt Woodsman and Hi-Standard semi-autos were very popular,and during the VN war the Ruger target semi-auto was very popular for this sort of thing.

So were sub-guns for those not all that confident in their accuracy with a handgun. Most popular during the VN war were Swedish K subs,but the old British Sten gun was popular too ,probably because the mag inserted horizontally and allowed the operator to stay close to the ground.

I had no faith in either and refused to carry one. I once witnessed someone shooting a silenced 9mm Sten into the floor of the ready tent at the launch site in order to allow a puddle of rain water to leak away,and the damn bullet bounced up and scared the hell out of everyone. Wouldn't penetrate 1/2 inch plywood. The 9 mm rounds had to be downloaded to subsonic for the suppressors to work,and was pretty much useless.

My choice was the old M3-A1 45 ACP "Grease Gun" of WW- Paratrooper and tanker fame. Not much to go wrong,the fully loaded military round is subsonic so the suppressor doesn't burn out quickly,and when you shoot someone in the knee with a 45 ACP,they have a tendency to fall down right then and focus there thoughts on something other than you.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   15:16:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: sneakypete (#59) (Edited)

I heard the same thing when I was issued on at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15.

"Gee Drill Sgt... how do we know you really know what  you're talking about?" 

--Said no [living] private, ever.

But your observation is appreciated and well taken.

I seriously doubt that "tumbling" was ever seen as anything other than an indicator that a faster twist was needed. .

Tumbling in the air, or after penetration?

I think I'll stick with what my dad's rabbit lesson showed me 1st hand:   It's better not to get shot at all - but if you do get shot with a "little" bullet like the .22 (or .223), and don't immediately fall down and die like in the movies, it's not trivial.

"Shoot to wound" - that's BS. Center mass is center, lethal, mass.  "Shoot to kill"... and use as many enemy resources as possible in the process of caring for the expectant - that makes strategic sense.

I wonder if non-NATO medical personnel, or somebody else, have documented observations of .223 damage?

Survey says...

https://www.google.com/search? q=.223+internal+injuries

"Mangled tissue and softball-sized exit wounds: Why AR-15 injuries are so devastating"

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article2019 49054.html

Fact or Fiction?

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   15:16:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: VxH (#62)

I heard the same thing when I was issued on at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15.

"Gee Drill Sgt... how do we know you really know what you're talking about?"

--Said no [living] private, ever.

They weren't drill sgts. They were Special Forces light weapons men conducting familiarization training with the new weapons because SF were the only people in the army that had them. Everyone else had M-14's.

Tumbling in the air, or after penetration?

How could anyone tell the difference? Tumbling is tumbling. This is especially true in the jungle,where there is no shortage of vegetation to deflect bullets.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   15:23:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: sneakypete (#63) (Edited)

Tumbling is tumbling.

Tumbling in the air affects accuracy and range, which was improved with the increased bore twists.

Non linear trajectory after penetration is something else.

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   15:26:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: VxH (#64)

Tumbling in the air affects accuracy and range, which was improved with the increased bore twists.

Non linear trajectory after penetration is something else.

True enough,but the final result when they meet meat and bone is the same.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   15:37:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: sneakypete (#65)

the final result when they meet meat and bone is the same.

Not when the physics of mass are taken int account.

Larger mass would have more kinetic energy in the aimed/linear vector: ie straight through.

Lower mass, lower energy = more likely non-linear vector change upon impact: ie, not straight through.

IOW:

================

tumbling 

  • when a bullet hits its target, it loses its directional stability and is able to rotate around its short axis; for this reason, non-deformed bullets may sometimes be seen pointing towards the entry wound

https://radiopaedia.org/articles/imaging-of-gunshot- injuries-1

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   16:00:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: VxH (#66)

Not when the physics of mass are taken int account.

Makes no difference at all unless it hits at a 50 degree angle,and on the point. If it hits a glancing blow on the curved part of the bone with the curved part of the bullet,it will deflect. Yeah,it will still break the bone,but it will also do more damage.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   19:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: sneakypete (#67) (Edited)

>>>>>Not when the physics of mass are taken int account.

Makes no difference at all

tumbling  

  • when a bullet hits its target, it loses its directional stability and is able to rotate around its short axis; for this reason, non-deformed bullets may sometimes be seen pointing towards the entry wound

https://radiopaedia.org/articles/imaging-of-gunshot-injuries-1

=============

What does this mean?

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   19:36:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: VxH (#68) (Edited)

What does this mean?

Doesn't mean anything to me,other than sometimes bullets do different things when hitting flesh and bone than they do other times. You should ask the guy that created that theory.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   19:59:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: sneakypete (#69) (Edited)

What is directional stability and how do velocity and mass affect it?

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   20:06:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: VxH (#70)

What is directional stability and how do velocity and mass affect it?

Oh,geeze! You are one of those geeks that think math is the answer to everything. Math is a good INDICATOR of what MAY happen,but that's it. Too many variables at work for it to be absolute.

Change the bullet,change the primer,change the power,change the range,or just change the target's offset from 90 degrees,and everything changes.

Hell,change the bone density and the results will be different.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-26   20:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: sneakypete (#71)

Oh,geeze! You are one of those geeks that think math is the answer to everything.

2+2=4 and Physics doesn't change. That's what makes the laws of physics useful for doing odd jobs like landing on the Moon or whatever.

What is directional stability?

Hint: An object in motion will stay in motion until __________?

https://www.google.com/search ?q=an+object+in+motion+tends+to+remain+in+motion

Which law is that associated with?

VxH  posted on  2018-02-26   20:24:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: VxH (#72)

Which law is that associated with?

Newtons First Law.

It's still theoretical bullshit,though. Too many unknowns,including bone density and humidity,bullet manufacturer,etc,etc,etc.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-02-27   13:49:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: sneakypete (#73)

>>>>Newtons First Law.

It's still theoretical bullshit,though.

I challenge anybody who thinks it's theoretical bullshit to jump off a cliff and see how the effects of gravity and the law of inertia predictably produce results.

Too many unknowns,

Those are called ~variables.

VxH  posted on  2018-03-05   11:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: VxH (#74)

Too many unknowns,

Those are called ~variables.

No,variables are known qualities you can plan and adjust for. Unknowns are,well,unknowns. You have to guess what they might be and what sort of effect they may bring about.

In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-03-05   17:08:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: sneakypete (#75)

and humidity,bullet manufacturer,etc,etc,etc.

bone density is a variable.
Humidity is a variable.
Bullet manufacturer is a variable.
Every Etc. is a variable.

>>You have to guess what they might be

In science, a model is a representation of an idea, an object or even a process or a system that is used to describe and explain phenomena that cannot be experienced directly. Models are central to what scientists do, both in their research as well as when communicating their explanations.May 10, 2011
Scientific modelling — Science Learning Hub
https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/575-scientific- modelling

VxH  posted on  2018-03-05   20:30:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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