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Title: Misleading MSN Article: The AR-15 and America's love of military-style weapons
Source:
MSN
URL Source: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t ... tO0?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp
Published: Feb 23, 2018
Author: staff
Post Date: 2018-02-23 13:28:14 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 5584
Comments: 76
The type of weapon, commonly known as the AR-15, is once again under scrutiny with critics calling for a ban after last week's massacre at a Florida high school that left 17 people dead. - Why are AR-15s so lethal? - The AR-15 is a semi-automatic weapon, meaning a user can fire off multiple shots in quick succession. Its cousin, the M-16, is a fully automatic version that has been used by the US military since Vietnam. Fully automatic weapons are banned for civilians. AR-15s fire high-velocity .223-caliber bullets that are accurate over long distances and cause expansive, devastating wounds to soft tissue and internal organs. These bullets – which travel at triple the speed of a handgun round – are popular among hunters for hitting targets up to a quarter of a mile (400 meters) away. Stephen Paddock, the killer in last October's mass shooting in Las Vegas, had amassed an arsenal of weapons including assault rifles. He fired more than 1,100 rounds from a hotel suite into a crowd of concertgoers more than 400 yards (meters) away. The toll was 58 dead and more than 800 injured, making it the deadliest mass shooting in recent US history. - Cheap and easy - Buying an AR-15 is easy. Depending on the state of residence, a prospective owner can walk into a gun shop and, after presenting a valid ID, buy a rifle or shotgun provided they can pass a federal background check. This process looks at a buyer's criminal history or whether he has ever been committed to a mental institution. But even this cursory check can be flouted in the case of private sales. Nikolas Cruz, the man police say carried out last week's massacre at a Florida high school, had legally purchased the AR-15-type weapon used in the attack and had passed an FBI background check. Aged just 18 at the time, the review didn't raise any red flags. In many states, one only needs to be 18 to buy an assault rifle – three years below the American age restriction on alcohol. Many Americans can simply go online and order weapons for delivery. AR-15s vary in price but can be bought for as little as $500. The National Rifle Association (NRA) touts them for recreational target practice, hunting and home defense, although experts question their value for the latter two uses. Part of the reason for assault weapons' popularity in America is that they are widely customizable, with owners able to add scopes, large-capacity magazines and a plethora of other accessories. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives doesn't know how many assault weapons there are in America – they are prohibited by federal law from keeping a gun registry database. According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the gun industry currently sells an estimated 1.3 million "modern sporting rifles and similar types of guns" each year. Estimates vary, but there are thought to be as many guns as people in America, which has a population of more than 320 million. Assault weapons were banned in 1994 under president Bill Clinton, but the restriction lapsed in 2004 amid pressure from the powerful NRA, and congressional efforts to renew the prohibition since then have failed. - Bump stocks - Vegas gunman Paddock increased the firing rate of the assault rifles he used with the addition of a "bump stock." Largely unheard of outside of America, these legal devices essentially turn a semi-automatic weapon into an automatic one. The devices clip on to the back end of a rifle and harness the gun's recoil to bounce the weapon's trigger off the user's finger. So, instead of a gunman having to squeeze the trigger repeatedly, the bump stock does the work for him, allowing him to empty a magazine in seconds. President Donald Trump announced Tuesday he would support moves to ban the devices, and the NRA has said bump stocks "should be subject to additional regulations."Time and again, America's worst mass shootings have featured a common thread: the killer's use of a military-style assault rifle that is inexpensive, easy to use and deadly efficient.
Did you notice the tone of the MSM - MSN Article was from "military-style weapons" to "Assault Weapons"; it is important as the MSM is seducing average Americans into a blind alley: all of these firearms are semi-automatic in nature; and they do not necessarily appear as "assault weapons."
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#1. To: buckeroo (#0)
I was considering whether I should finally buy an AR-15, an ammo stash and some accessories. I was thinking that I was being a little too much of a worrywart. Then I saw Ben Shapiro put out a video, saying that he was thinking the same thing and has been shopping for one himself. Shapiro's a smart guy, not extreme at all. So I'm reconsidering. The Trump election has ruined the huge sales enjoyed by Big Gun during the 0bama years. 0dinga was the greatest gun salesman in American history. But I think we'll see an uptick in gun purchases as a direct result of all the gungrabbing talk going on now. It's not exactly prophetic since that is what has happened after so many other massacres and the resulting calls for gungrabbing.
Anybody in the woods being charged by a bear or a wild boar better hope they have something like a semi-automatic 30-06. What are you going to do -- kneel down and sing kumbaya?
Can't such a purchase at this tyme be considered that you are another domestic terrorist as opposed to exercising your God given rights?
That's an option, isn't it? According to Jesus, just "turn the other cheek."
Not really. Here's the video I mentioned, cued up to 27:30. He mentions his own shopping for a gun at about 28:40. Ben points out that almost every gun, including six-shooters, are semi-automatics. He was pretty fiery in this clip. I got a kick out of Ben broadcasting from his bedroom. Those Orthodox Jews are pretty conservative, notice the twin beds.
I don't think Jesus was referring to wild animals.
... to a designated, federally licensed dealer who will then perform a background check by sending the buyer's information to the FBI.
So over a 10-year period we're talking about 13 million AR-15's and similar rifles? And how many of those were used in school shootings?
What protects us beyond the Second Amendment? Love of God, Love of government; Love of politicians or the sanctity of realization that personal defense is a God given right? This question includes the capability and capacity to defend ourselves based upon personal responsibility and judgement.
no gnu taxes: I don't think Jesus was referring to wild animals. He was referring to the belief to get your ass into perspective: your belief in "heaven" or "paradise" ... his fortitude had nothing to suggest of or about about your wild exclusion about "wild animals."
But also legally, within limits prescribed by the laws. Self-defense is not lawless. It has limits.
So define the limits. As an example, where are any parameters to study based on any written law that confines my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to not defend myself? Are you deft, man? There is no such thing.
So you can just kill anyone in the pursuit of your happiness? "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is just a phrase in the Declaration of Independence. It's not in the Constitution or Bill of Rights or in statute. Your pursuit of happiness is an ideal, not a legal right.
Are you sure you know what you are describing? Frankly, I doubt you know much about individual freedoms and personal liberties or any ideas of personal dignities; the US Constitution and before it, the Declaration of Independence lays down the foundations not your dishonest and awkward interpretation of Ideals.
And once the background check is cleared,the buyer can then go to the gunshop,fill out the forms,pay the man,and pick up his new gun. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I dunno,but CNN and the Huff and Puff,and blow the homo rich hubby down,ington Post has reported the ones not invited to that party are extremely mad,and subject to shoot anyone because of it, In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
WTF?
Putting military "style" aside for a moment, there are millions of GENUINE Military weapons spread across the length and breadth of America. They're from many nations around the world, and many different calibers, shapes and sizes. Lock 'n Load. Come and take them! Molon Labe! I have 3 AR's and one lower receiver for building a custom 11.5 inch barrel short rifle, in the future. I suggest anyone that loves freedom own at least one. The short ones are awesome for getting in and out of a vehicle, or clearing classrooms with. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
I have the AP-4. Got a good group rate going in with 15 others I served with in Iraq. We made it a commemorative edition for our rotation and invited 1st Cav vets to join in. Knocked the price down $200. Quite a few ranges don't like the AR-15 class damaging their targets but plenty of friends with land to play around.
AP4 Smart. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
He had 23 weapons in his hotel room, not all of them AR-15's. They included hanguns, .308 rifles, AK-47's (7.62mm) and AR-15's -- of which two had bump stocks. But we're to assume that he only used the AR-15's fitted with bumpfire stocks?
Whenever anyone says "I'm thinking of getting a gun", expect others to weigh in without invitation. AR-15's are nice if you're into customization. By that I mean turning a $700 rifle into a $2,000 rifle by replacing just about everything. You'll end up with a one-of-a-kind rifle with no history of reliability, durability or accuracy. But it looks cool. For a 2nd generation rifle. But if you want the latest and greatest 3rd generation assault rifle, you'd be looking at the civilian versions of the FN SCAR, H&K 416, SIG 556, CZ- 805 BREN, Beretta ARX 160, or the HS Produkt VHS assault rifle. These are modular, piston driven rifles with a military history. Little customization except for accessories. I'm a leftie, so I chose the Beretta ARX-100 (civilian version of the ARX-160). I love it. Disassembly with no tools. Reliable. 6.8 pounds. Folding stock. Ambidextrous. Dual extractors. 1:7 twist, chrome-lined, 4150 steel, cold hammer forged barrel. 2 MOA accuracy (standard military).
Actually, it was an invitation for others to comment. But it's actually "getting another gun". I'm not unarmed now. This is some good advice. When I bought my Glock pistol, I weighed all the similar customization options available for the M1911 platform. Ultimately, I just preferred the size and feel of the Glock 23 over the .45's that I'd shot. I'm no weapons expert by any means but know some sharp shooting guys. You need to pick a gun that fits you, that you're comfortable shooting. I wanted a little more punch than a .38 but didn't think a .45 would make a real difference. And I don't think I know enough to really customize an AR-15 or M1911 to make a reliable gun that I would like. Maybe I just haven't had enough experience with a broad enough range of accessories. Back in the day when an average kid could still work on a car without pricey electronic instruments, teens and young men built up their own hot rods. I think the M1911 and the AR-15 are a little like that. Guys that really want to study up, spending hundreds of hours at it, can probably configure a custom M1911/AR-15 to suit them exactly. But I think there is a large market, a majority, that tend to stick to the bog-standard rifles or they limit customizing to sights/triggers/stocks/lasers. Normally, I would go toward one of the other (pricier, less famous) alternatives you mention, the same way I went to a Glock 23 instead of the M1911 platform or even a cheaper Taurus or other "off the shelf" handgun. But I do keep thinking that there are times when I wish I would have picked a wheel gun. I think revolvers are still best for people who aren't expert in guns. And I wonder if my mistake was in not buying a good revolver instead of debating with myself whether to go with a classic Glock pistol like the 23 or a M1911 handgun. They seem a little pricey. I think their accommodation of lefty shooters raises their price a little even if the design seems pretty foolproof for both lefty and righty shooters. I otherwise liked what I read in the review at Guns & Ammo. I need to start finding some prices so I can compare these better. Do you have any sites to recommend that have good average prices on what to expect to spend on one of these rifles in the era of Trump? G&A doesn't tell us much about average prices across the country or at least I didn't notice that.
'Shotgun News' is your best bet for prices... It's geared for dealers selling to dealers, but most advertisers will sell to individuals if you go thru a ffl dealer... -- They even publish a list of cooperating local dealers...
Yeah, when compared to a standard AR-15. I see that the ARX-100 is currently priced at $1300 which is what I paid for mine a year ago. But these are piston rifles which average about $500 over a direct impingement rifle. Places to go to give you a rough idea of pricing: grabagun.com I would suggest first researching for the rifle you want, then searching for the best price. There are a million variants of AR-15's including building your own from scratch.
I like the reviews. I like that it is more suited for hunting. The price is pretty good. Then I started noticing price/package deals online for DPMS AR-15s. MSRP: $739, or GunsAmerica at $599 + $29.95 shipping to your local FFL shop. I found another new-in-box DPMS AR-15 for $399 + $30 shipping. Which almost sounds too low. But NIB is NIB and they seem to have a good reputation. That's a very compelling price on the AR-15. Ready for any customized options, considered a very good value AR-15 gun. The AP-4 is a little higher and customizing it seems unnecessarily hard/expensive with some common options seeming to be unavailable for the AP-4. Maybe I haven't shopped enough for the AP-4 accessories. I probably want a scope, not too high-end, along with a red-dot sight. And maybe basic flashlight/laser grip, not too bulky. Because half of the day, it's dark. Those accessories are very widely available for the AR-15 but it seems the AP-4 buyers aren't looking for as much customization. The AP-4 looks like a fine gun though. Reliable, stopping power, better range than an AR-15 will give you. I do kinda dislike buying an AR-15 because it just isn't quite a real hunting gun and the AP-4 is definitely as good for hunting as much as home defense against zombie armies and Google's robot killers. Maybe I just need to shop more to find a better price for the AP-4 and try harder to find the few accessories that I do want. Sometimes I just hate to shop. Having too many choices can make me less satisfied with my purchase. And overshopping really can ruin a purchase.
The AP-4 is the civilian version of the M-4. The M-16 with collapsible stock. We all had the Tac sites with option of the flashlight too. For my civilian version I just use iron sites. Probably because I want the boys to learn basic sites and zeroing before the fancy stuff. However here is something you might like to look at. BSA Tactical Sight/Laser/Flashlight Combo Item # WX2-231158 Mfg. Number: TW30RDLL UPC: 793676041506IN STOCK
I did find a gen-2 AP-4 tricked out with case, good stock and Redfield scope, barrel-mounted laser/flashlight, 3 spare large mags plus the stock mag. DPMS G2 AP4 .308/7.62NATO AR-10 Rifle SuperKit. $2285 + $56 shipping. That is the newer model with all the goodies most people will want. Really nice. It has everything, ready to go. You really couldn't go wrong with this gun. And it is hard to imagine that this gun would not meet any possible use I have for it. Just a sweet ready-to-go gun. I also see at places like BudsGunShop the gen-2 AP-4 basic model for $889. The AP-4 is the better all-around gun but I may be too cheap to buy one. Which is why we see such intense competition in the AR-15 platform. It is the Chevy of rifle industry and that results in fierce price competition, economies of scale in manufacturing guns and accessories, etc. If AR-15 is the Chevy, AP-4 (the AR-10 platform) is a Buick. Maybe I'm narrowing my list a little this way though. I'm determined to avoid overshopping. I'd could buy an AR-15 just for the lower price but I keep thinking that if I'm going to spend the money (and might not ever want to buy another gun if I make the right choice on this purchase), then I want a gun suited to at least medium-range shooting with accuracy and reliability. I don't want to save $500-$700 and then feel I had compromised too much on what may be my last major gun purchase. I want the right gun, the one I can be happy with for years to come. I have some doubts on that score with the AR-15. I do like these DPMS designs and price points overall. And it's hard not to like an American-made gun that offers good price and decent quality. I do like some of the other NATO guns (German, Czech, Italian) but I'm not so wild about buying a foreign gun instead of an American one. My Glock was a compromise since they had factories and after-market third-party accessory makers here in the States.
That's really nice. Obviously I wasn't shopping enough. So you could buy this sight/laser/flashlight for $100, the NIB AP-4 rifle, and a few spare mags and a smallish ammo stash (to get you past the 200-shot barrel break-in period) for under $1,500. That's pretty good. Do you use this for hunting or plinking targets or both?
DPMS is who we dealt with. Great customer service. Might get a better deal talking with them. Heck maybe get an LF group rate.:-) That's is everyone can pass the background check. :-)
Target shooting.
BTW The Bee has a real good one: Nation That Calls Trump ‘Hitler’ Demands He Take All Guns Away
Maybe I just need to shop more to find a better price for the AP-4 and try harder to find the few accessories that I do want. Sometimes I just hate to shop. Having too many choices can make me less satisfied with my purchase. And overshopping really can ruin a purchase. Do yourself a favor and just buy a FN-FAL in 7x57 or 7.62x51 caliber. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Well, I kinda hate Belgium and the EU generally. So that isn't a plus. And America never adopted it. I used to hear a lot about them 10-20 years ago and I know there are a lot of people who liked them. But I just don't hear anything about them any more. Are the classic FN-FAL rifles still being manufactured by the company? Or under license to others? I recall that when NATO got rid of theirs, the parts kits (minus uppers) were available dirt cheap for some years for gun hobbyists, before the SKS and AR-47 and AR-15 rifles got popular. I know those surplus NATO weapons were real cheap for a few years. I think the Century Arms L1A1 is an FN-FAL clone but I just don't find hardly any new guns that are FN-FAL. And the mint FALs from the NATO era are around $2,500 or so. Where would you buy a new one now? Or find the parts to build one?
These newer AR-15 pistol designs are very interesting. Cute even. They look like so much fun. If I was hanging out blasting away at the local gun club a lot, I would enjoy those. I even like those gen-2 Kriss Vectors using the Glock 9mm and .45 mags. I keep telling myself that those fun guns aren't very practical. It's amazing what they've done with the AR-15 platform over the years.
And believe it or not, an AR set up with a short barrel, doesn't suffer much noticeable decreased accuracy when compared to the 16 inch or longer barreled varieties. When I did transition drills (practicing going from rifle to sidearm, if the rifle empties or jams), I set up white balloons at 100 yards and we went through a lot of balloons. Many states have idiotic laws against AR's with shorter than 16' barrels, so keep that in mind. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
I don't know where you can buy a new one because I haven't looked. The prime thing to consider if you want to buy one is to buy a "metric" version,not the British version. Lots more parts available,and they mostly aren't interchangeable. NATO got rid of theirs for political reasons,not functional reasons. The parts kits dried up because there was a ban on importing them when President Bubba,the patron saint of virtue,signed a law banning them from importation as Assault Weapons. You can still buy parts kits here: https://www.sargesmilitarysurplus.com/product/imbel-fn-fal/ that are Brazilian. You can buy new Semi-Auto receivers from them,or a few other sources. The good news is the parts kits come with new hammer forged military barrels that will last a LONG time. If you say "huh?" when someone says the word "headspace",do NOT try to put a kit together. Take it to a competent gunsmith that and have him do it. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
If I was hanging out blasting away at the local gun club a lot, I would enjoy those. Never mind my suggestion to buy a FN-FAL. You just want to blast away while being stylish. I think you would be happiest with something like a semi-auto Uzi,MAC-10,etc,etc,etc. FN-FAL's are Main Battle Rifles. I guess you could put one together in .223 if you wanted,but it would be expensive and you would still have a .223 when you are done. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Not really. It's like being tempted by a sports car when you're shopping for a pickup or SUV. You're tempted but stick to shopping for the practical vehicle. The FN-FAL is still considered one of the best (or the best) battle rifle of the Cold War era, going by reliability and ergonomics. You still see people making YouTube vids about it. No doubt, a fine gun. It surprises me that no one ever licensed the design to produce their own versions in large numbers. The FN-FAL has a better reputation than other guns who did get licensed and cloned by the millions. Like the endless stream of AK-47s and AR-15s. Experts don't seem to consider the AKs and ARs made for the civilian market to be in the same class of battle rifle as the FN-FAL. BTW, just how many people do just want to blast away while being stylish down at the range with their shooting buddies? Having fun guns that you just like may contribute to practice time. The gun you actually shoot regularly is more valuable than the "serious battle rifle" that just sits in your closet, awaiting the zombie apocalypse, the attack of Google's SkyNet robot hordes, or Civil War II when America's all-gay all-tranny military goes door to door to take our guns. Besides, I am enough of a killjoy already. Maybe I should give fun a chance. But I am much more likely to be 1) cheap and 2) practical. It's a character defect. Or I'm just getting old. : )
I've heard this before. Does that tells us something about the AR itself? Surely that has occurred to you as well. I keep wondering if I'd get much more out of an AR-15 than these Kriss Vector Gen II SDP-SB. I don't care much about the reduced recoil but that barrel stabilization really does interest me. In general, I think we are seeing something of a trend toward these pistols-as-SBRs, more so among younger shooters. We're seeing pretty huge numbers of people willing to do the ATF paperwork for SBR and for suppressors.
Check out the Vortex SPARC II red dot. $200. 2 MOA dot. Waterproof. Dust caps. Auto power off. Multi-Height Mounting System. Unlimited lifetime warranty (Fully transferable).
Good price for a scope that works on everything from pistols to rifles to shotguns. They seem to have a lot of happy customers that compare these to scopes costing 2-3 times as much. But does it have Bluetooth 4.0? LOL
I have two kinds of rifles. One is for extreme accuracy,and the other type is like my M-1 Garand and my FN-FAL,practical types that I shoot at pop up targets at ranges out to 500 meters using iron sights and surplus ammo. I care nothing for rapid fire,and everything for hitting what I shoot at. Don't get me wrong. In MY mind there is nothing wrong with "sport shooting" if rapid fire and/or point shooting with a rifle are fun for you. It just ain't for me. Ironically enough,it's just the opposite for me with handguns. Shooting at bullseyes bores me to tears. I used to do stuff like scatter golf balls around the yard,and then spin and snap-shoot at them. Since they are all different distances away this isn't something you want to do if you get upset about missing occasionally. It sure is fun when you hit one with a 200 gr 45 bullet,though. Or was,before my eyes started getting bad and I started getting arthritis in my hands and fingers. I still shoot,but only at snakes. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I looked more and those FN-FAL's are really scarce compared to what they were. Yours may be a lot more collectible than you realize. I'll keep looking around but it seems everyone who has 'em wants to keep 'em.
Mine will be sold at my estate sale,not before. I love being able to adjust the gas piston to "tune" it to the particular batch of ammo I am shooting to either reduce recoil or guarantee reliability. And yes,you can actually FEEL the difference in recoil between 7.62x51 rounds created for different armies. Seems like the stuff that came in from Israel was the hottest,and it also seemed like Israel had more of the fitted out as squad auto-weapons with MUCH heavier barrels to take the heat of auto fire. The Israely FN-FAL's were noticeably heavier than the others,too. All the European Armies gave up on the FN-FAL because the US insisted that all NATO nations use the same calibers for simplicity of supply reasons,so they all switched over to .223/5.56mm from .308/762x51mm. This is the real reason the US Military switched over to 9mm pistols and did away with the beloved 1911A1 and the 45 ACP round. Politics can be defined as a system where "you have to give something away to get something in return",and the AR manufacturers in the northeast needed the money. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Cheaper vs. better. I'm sure you've heard that speculation that NATO was more interested in wounding than killing because if you kill, you only take out one soldier but if you wound, it takes two guys to come haul the wounded guy away. It's a wry debate. And you are right that choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects. Would we have the AR-15 market of today were it not for this adoption of its ammo? Surplus ammo prices can help determine the choices people (and armed forces and police) make for decades to come. And the arms and ammo manufacturers certainly know this. BTW, it seems that Sarge's Military Surplus has lost its server 'cause I can't load it. Hopefully you have other sources for parts. You probably have the most important parts already stockpiled. I don't want to buy any EU products much but I am more impressed with the price/quality of those CZ arms. Modern military designs, prices aren't that much more than good quality AR-15 gear. I keep telling myself that I should stop caring about any hunting potential for these firearms. It would make things a lot simpler. Then I could reduce the criteria to 1) fun to shoot and 2) good for home defense and Civil War II/zombies/Skynet. I like these sub-guns and AR-15 pistol carbines but you still just have .223 or handgun calibers. I know they aren't considered serious firearms but I think that is where a large part of the market is going, especially the under-40 shooters. I dislike having to think about how dominant the .223 and the handgun ammos are and how that affects my purchase criteria. It goes back to your points about the politics of calibers and how decisions made by NATO powers decades ago affect the price of shooting today and the prices of guns overall. I'm looking more at the Springfield Patriot AR-15s, both the full-size and the sub-gun version, mostly at the full-size rifle. They have good quality, good reviews, solid reputation from a historic manufacturer, cheap ammo, huge variety of AR accessories, etc. For ~$800 for the gun, you could add cheap optics/laser/flashlight and still not be much over $1000 before you start stockpiling some ammo. But I just don't like the .223 ammo as well as the .308. People pay more for the .308s because it is a better class of ammo. But the ammo costs a lot more and weighs twice as much. Well, the debate over .223 vs .308 never ends. Of course, I could always compromise between .223 and .308 and choose something like a Ruger Mini-30 and use the AK47/SKS ammo. They can be had for ~$800 like the decent AR-15s. I am a little reticent because I bought a Glock 23 in .40S&W, compromising between the lighter/cheaper 9mm models and the heavier/more-lethal .45. You see the parallels here to my .223 vs .308 choices. Sometimes you end up just feeling you've compromised without gaining the advantages and satisfaction of going with either of the major popular platforms. I just haven't found the gun yet that makes me say, "Yeah, that's it. That's the gun I can be happy with for years to come and want to shoot enough to be decent with it." I already have some guns I never shoot and I should probably just sell them or give them to my brother. I don't want to buy another gun whose only use is getting cleaned and oiled. Hence, my mentions of "fun guns" which you no doubt find a little annoying.
Given the tumbling nature of the .223, That's a speculative pantload. [223 FMJ designed to tumble (explained)] http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums /ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1471014 etc etc, https://www.google.com/search?q=tumbling+.223 A Full Metal pantload? IT happens.
I thought the whole tumbling thing was considered even more unlikely than the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory. We hear this stuff year after year or decade after decade but we don't seem to get any final and undisputed answers. It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends.
The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it. You might recall that was before Algore invented the Interwebs.
The lower mass of a .22 or .223 has long lasting effect. On a less than successful fishing trip, my dad shot a rabbit for dinner from maybe 10 yards with the .22 stash gun he kept that fit in a pack of cigarettes. When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity. It instilled a healthy respect for the "little" bullets fired by the .22 bolt action rifle I got for Christmas 'bout that time. Good lesson he taught.
You don't shoot center mass to wound. That's the aiming point taught on any American military or police academy firing line. It's called lethal force for a reason.
The .22 is a surprising little round. It can also disappoint in major ways. I've read that same thing many times, about .22 rounds just wandering around the body, wreaking havoc as they go. And then there are the other stories like "don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad". We've all heard this stuff, a lot more than we've ever seen serious studies and proof of how true it is. The mob hitmen used to prefer high-end .22s with crafted loads or so I've read. But they really knew what they were doing with one. One reason I'm hesitating over the AR-15 is that it is still just a souped-up .22, however high its velocity. It just seems, well, too light. OTOH, the bullets cost half as much and weigh half as much. As the Russkies used to say, quantity has a quality all its own but that philosophy never won the Cold War for them either.
Maybe your instructors were just repeating gun gossip.
The consensus around the extended LEO family campfire conversations I grew up listening to was that getting shot with a .22 was not such a trivial matter. I've never found their wisdom to be unreliable.
Some of them had seen and used the M16 in action in Viet Nam. The instructors, many of whom had just returned from VN, who ran the Boy Scout firing lines at the camps we went to in the 60's & 70's all taught the same thing: Small caliber bullets are not trivial. The physics aren't that hard to understand. And the same "gossip" was repeated in first aid classes in Basic - and at 91A medical specialist school in 1989. It's not going to be resting in the hole like in the movies. And people don't immediately fall down and die when they get shot, either. That's a strategic advantage to those who plan accordingly. Common sense.
I do. I have them stored in an object I call a "rifle". Maybe not a clever hiding place,but there's not much danger of me forgetting where they are stored. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
We hear this stuff year after year or decade after decade but we don't seem to get any final and undisputed answers. It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends. Sometimes it does,and sometimes it doesn't. It will tumble if it hits a big bone at the right angle,and the point isn't what strikes the bone. It's definitely not something you can count on. I'm old-fashioned,and I put my faith in bullet placement above all. Put a 22 short in someone's eye socket,and you can move on to worry about something else. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I heard the same thing when I was issued one at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15. BTW,IRRC,the early,pre-bolt assist AR-15's has a slower rifling twist in the barrel,and that might be the source of the early "tumbling" stories. The twist just wasn't quick enough to stabilize the bullet before it left the muzzle,so it would "yaw" on the way to the target,causing it to tumble when it hit. I am not sure of the date so DO NOT quote me on this,but I THINK that by 1967 they had quicker twists in the barrel for more bullet stabilization and accuracy. I seriously doubt that "tumbling" was ever seen as anything other than an indicator that a faster twist was needed. This is especially true of the early 60's,when everyone in the military were experienced with Garands and M-14's In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
The lower mass of a .22 or .223 has long lasting effect. On a less than successful fishing trip, my dad shot a rabbit for dinner from maybe 10 yards with the .22 stash gun he kept that fit in a pack of cigarettes. When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity. It instilled a healthy respect for the "little" bullets fired by the .22 bolt action rifle I got for Christmas 'bout that time. Good lesson he taught. Yes,but it is a REQUIREMENT that military rifle ammo MUST be able to penetrate body armor and a certain thickness of wood. Tumbling bullets will not do this. If you ever have the time,read General Julian Hatcher's "Hatchers Notebook" for fascinating (if you are anal enough to be a target shooter,anyway) insights into ballistics and bullet designs,as well as the military requirements for different weapons. Hatcher was one of the small arms development honchos at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds brain-trust,and if he didn't know it,it didn't exist. IIRC,he was on the acceptance board for the 03 Springfield,but was most likely also involved with the development of the 30/40 Krag rifle and ammunition,the first truly modern rifle fielded by the US Army. I made the mistake of lending mine to a guy I taught how to reload,then taught how to build rifles about 20 years ago,and it never seems to find it's way back home. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
A 22 LR hollowpoint to the head will kill you graveyard dead 100 times out of 100,unless it is a glancing blow. All you can kill anyone is dead. The US Army Special Forces,the US Navy Seals,and the British SAS all issue silenced 22 caliber rim fire semi-autos to teams for covert work. These people know a thing or two about certain things. One nickname they are called is "hush puppies" because they handy for taking out guard dogs. In WW-2 Colt Woodsman and Hi-Standard semi-autos were very popular,and during the VN war the Ruger target semi-auto was very popular for this sort of thing. So were sub-guns for those not all that confident in their accuracy with a handgun. Most popular during the VN war were Swedish K subs,but the old British Sten gun was popular too ,probably because the mag inserted horizontally and allowed the operator to stay close to the ground. I had no faith in either and refused to carry one. I once witnessed someone shooting a silenced 9mm Sten into the floor of the ready tent at the launch site in order to allow a puddle of rain water to leak away,and the damn bullet bounced up and scared the hell out of everyone. Wouldn't penetrate 1/2 inch plywood. The 9 mm rounds had to be downloaded to subsonic for the suppressors to work,and was pretty much useless. My choice was the old M3-A1 45 ACP "Grease Gun" of WW- Paratrooper and tanker fame. Not much to go wrong,the fully loaded military round is subsonic so the suppressor doesn't burn out quickly,and when you shoot someone in the knee with a 45 ACP,they have a tendency to fall down right then and focus there thoughts on something other than you. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
I heard the same thing when I was issued on at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15. "Gee Drill Sgt... how do we know you really know what you're talking about?" --Said no [living] private, ever. But your observation is appreciated and well taken. I seriously doubt that "tumbling" was ever seen as anything other than an indicator that a faster twist was needed. . Tumbling in the air, or after penetration? I think I'll stick with what my dad's rabbit lesson showed me 1st hand: It's better not to get shot at all - but if you do get shot with a "little" bullet like the .22 (or .223), and don't immediately fall down and die like in the movies, it's not trivial. "Shoot to wound" - that's BS. Center mass is center, lethal, mass. "Shoot to kill"... and use as many enemy resources as possible in the process of caring for the expectant - that makes strategic sense. I wonder if non-NATO medical personnel, or somebody else, have documented observations of .223 damage? Survey says... https://www.google.com/search? q=.223+internal+injuries http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article2019 49054.html Fact or Fiction?
"Gee Drill Sgt... how do we know you really know what you're talking about?" --Said no [living] private, ever. They weren't drill sgts. They were Special Forces light weapons men conducting familiarization training with the new weapons because SF were the only people in the army that had them. Everyone else had M-14's. Tumbling in the air, or after penetration? How could anyone tell the difference? Tumbling is tumbling. This is especially true in the jungle,where there is no shortage of vegetation to deflect bullets. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Tumbling in the air affects accuracy and range, which was improved with the increased bore twists. Non linear trajectory after penetration is something else.
Non linear trajectory after penetration is something else. True enough,but the final result when they meet meat and bone is the same. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Not when the physics of mass are taken int account. Larger mass would have more kinetic energy in the aimed/linear vector: ie straight through. Lower mass, lower energy = more likely non-linear vector change upon impact: ie, not straight through. IOW: ================ tumbling https://radiopaedia.org/articles/imaging-of-gunshot- injuries-1
Makes no difference at all unless it hits at a 50 degree angle,and on the point. If it hits a glancing blow on the curved part of the bone with the curved part of the bullet,it will deflect. Yeah,it will still break the bone,but it will also do more damage. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
Makes no difference at all tumbling https://radiopaedia.org/articles/imaging-of-gunshot-injuries-1 ============= What does this mean?
Doesn't mean anything to me,other than sometimes bullets do different things when hitting flesh and bone than they do other times. You should ask the guy that created that theory. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
What is directional stability and how do velocity and mass affect it?
Oh,geeze! You are one of those geeks that think math is the answer to everything. Math is a good INDICATOR of what MAY happen,but that's it. Too many variables at work for it to be absolute. Change the bullet,change the primer,change the power,change the range,or just change the target's offset from 90 degrees,and everything changes. Hell,change the bone density and the results will be different. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
2+2=4 and Physics doesn't change. That's what makes the laws of physics useful for doing odd jobs like landing on the Moon or whatever. What is directional stability? Hint: An object in motion will stay in motion until __________? https://www.google.com/search ?q=an+object+in+motion+tends+to+remain+in+motion Which law is that associated with?
Newtons First Law. It's still theoretical bullshit,though. Too many unknowns,including bone density and humidity,bullet manufacturer,etc,etc,etc. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
It's still theoretical bullshit,though. I challenge anybody who thinks it's theoretical bullshit to jump off a cliff and see how the effects of gravity and the law of inertia predictably produce results. Those are called ~variables.
Those are called ~variables. No,variables are known qualities you can plan and adjust for. Unknowns are,well,unknowns. You have to guess what they might be and what sort of effect they may bring about. In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.
bone density is a variable. >>You have to guess what they might be In science, a model is a representation of an idea, an object or even a process or a system that is used to describe and explain phenomena that cannot be experienced directly. Models are central to what scientists do, both in their research as well as when communicating their explanations.May 10, 2011
#2. To: buckeroo (#0)
#3. To: Tooconservative (#1)
I was considering whether I should finally buy an AR-15, an ammo stash and some accessories.
#4. To: no gnu taxes (#2)
Anybody in the woods being charged by a bear or a wild boar better hope they have something like a semi-automatic 30-06. What are you going to do -- kneel down and sing kumbaya?
#5. To: buckeroo, sneakypete (#3)
#6. To: buckeroo (#4)
According to Jesus, just "turn the other cheek."
#7. To: buckeroo (#0)
Many Americans can simply go online and order weapons for delivery ...
#8. To: buckeroo (#0)
the gun industry currently sells an estimated 1.3 million "modern sporting rifles and similar types of guns" each year.
#9. To: Tooconservative (#5)
#10. To: no gnu taxes (#6)
buckeroo: According to Jesus, just "turn the other cheek."
#11. To: buckeroo (#9)
This question includes the capability and capacity to defend ourselves based upon personal responsibility and judgement.
#12. To: Tooconservative (#11)
Self-defense is not lawless. It has limits.
#13. To: buckeroo (#12)
So define the limits. As an example, where are any parameters to study based on any written law that confines my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness to not defend myself?
#14. To: Tooconservative (#13)
Your pursuit of happiness is an ideal, not a legal right.
#15. To: misterwhite (#7)
. to a designated, federally licensed dealer who will then perform a background check by sending the buyer's information to the FBI.
#16. To: misterwhite (#8)
So over a 10-year period we're talking about 13 million AR-15's and similar rifles? And how many of those were used in school shootings?
#17. To: buckeroo (#10)
He was referring to the belief to get your ass into perspective: your belief in "heaven" or "paradise" ... his fortitude had nothing to suggest of or about about your wild exclusion about "wild animals."
#18. To: buckeroo, millions of military weapons, in the hands of American peons, *Bang List* (#0)
#19. To: Tooconservative (#1)
I was considering whether I should finally buy an AR-15
#20. To: Tooconservative (#1)
I was considering whether I should finally buy an AR-15, an ammo stash and some accessories. I was thinking that I was being a little too much of a worrywart. Then I saw Ben Shapiro put out a video, saying that he was thinking the same thing and has been shopping for one himself. Shapiro's a smart guy, not extreme at all. So I'm reconsidering.
#21. To: redleghunter (#20)
Got a good group rate going in with 15 others I served with in Iraq. We made it a commemorative edition for our rotation and invited 1st Cav vets to join in. Knocked the price down $200.
#22. To: buckeroo (#0)
"Stephen Paddock, the killer in last October's mass shooting in Las Vegas, had amassed an arsenal of weapons including assault rifles."
#23. To: Tooconservative (#1)
"I was considering whether I should finally buy an AR-15 ..."
#24. To: misterwhite, redleghunter (#23)
Whenever anyone says "I'm thinking of getting a gun", expect others to weigh in without invitation.
But if you want the latest and greatest 3rd generation assault rifle, you'd be looking at the civilian versions of the FN SCAR, H&K 416, SIG 556, CZ- 805 BREN, Beretta ARX 160, or the HS Produkt VHS assault rifle. These are modular, piston driven rifles with a military history. Little customization except for accessories.
I'm a leftie, so I chose the Beretta ARX-100 (civilian version of the ARX-160). I love it. Disassembly with no tools. Reliable. 6.8 pounds. Folding stock. Ambidextrous. Dual extractors. 1:7 twist, chrome-lined, 4150 steel, cold hammer forged barrel. 2 MOA accuracy (standard military).
#25. To: Tooconservative (#24)
(Edited)
I need to start finding some prices so I can compare these better.
#26. To: Tooconservative (#24)
They seem a little pricey.
gunbroker.com
budsgunshop.com
cabelas.com
#27. To: redleghunter, sneakypete, misterwhite (#20)
I have the AP-4. Got a good group rate going in with 15 others I served with in Iraq. We made it a commemorative edition for our rotation and invited 1st Cav vets to join in. Knocked the price down $200.
#28. To: Tooconservative (#27)
#29. To: redleghunter (#20)
(Edited)
#30. To: redleghunter (#28)
(Edited)
BSA Tactical Sight/Laser/Flashlight Combo
#31. To: Tooconservative (#29)
I do like these DPMS designs and price points overall.
#32. To: Tooconservative (#30)
Do you use this for hunting or plinking targets or both?
#33. To: Tooconservative, Liberator, A K A Stone (#30)
#34. To: Tooconservative (#27)
The AP-4 looks like a fine gun though. Reliable, stopping power, better range than an AR-15 will give you. I do kinda dislike buying an AR-15 because it just isn't quite a real hunting gun and the AP-4 is definitely as good for hunting as much as home defense against zombie armies and Google's robot killers.
#35. To: sneakypete (#34)
Do yourself a favor and just buy a FN-FAL in 7x57 or 7.62x51 caliber.
#36. To: GrandIsland (#19)
I have 3 AR's and one lower receiver for building a custom 11.5 inch barrel short rifle, in the future.
#37. To: Tooconservative (#36)
(Edited)
#38. To: Tooconservative (#35)
(Edited)
Where would you buy a new one now? Or find the parts to build one?
#39. To: Tooconservative (#36)
These newer AR-15 pistol designs are very interesting. Cute even. They look like so much fun.
#40. To: sneakypete, GrandIsland (#39)
Never mind my suggestion to buy a FN-FAL. You just want to blast away while being stylish.
#41. To: GrandIsland, sneakypete (#37)
And believe it or not, an AR set up with a short barrel, doesn't suffer much noticeable decreased accuracy when compared to the 16 inch or longer barreled varieties.
#42. To: Tooconservative (#27)
I probably want a scope, not too high-end, along with a red-dot sight.
#43. To: misterwhite (#42)
(Edited)
Check out the Vortex SPARC II red dot. $200.
#44. To: Tooconservative (#40)
(Edited)
BTW, just how many people do just want to blast away while being stylish down at the range with their shooting buddies? Having fun guns that you just like may contribute to practice time. The gun you actually shoot regularly is more valuable than the "serious battle rifle" that just sits in your closet, awaiting the zombie apocalypse, the attack of Google's SkyNet robot hordes, or Civil War II when America's all-gay all-tranny military goes door to door to take our guns.
#45. To: sneakypete (#44)
I have two kinds of rifles. One is for extreme accuracy,and the other type is like my M-1 Garand and my FN-FAL,practical types that I shoot at pop up targets at ranges out to 500 meters using iron sights and surplus ammo.
#46. To: Tooconservative (#45)
I looked more and those FN-FAL's are really scarce compared to what they were. Yours may be a lot more collectible than you realize. I'll keep looking around but it seems everyone who has 'em wants to keep 'em.
#47. To: sneakypete (#46)
(Edited)
All the European Armies gave up on the FN-FAL because the US insisted that all NATO nations use the same calibers for simplicity of supply reasons,so they all switched over to .223/5.56mm from .308/762x51mm.
#48. To: Tooconservative (#47)
(Edited)
I'm sure you've heard that speculation that NATO was more interested in wounding than killing
#49. To: VxH (#48)
Given the tumbling nature of the .223,
#50. To: Tooconservative (#49)
It probably amounts to internet gossip and urban legends.
#51. To: Tooconservative (#47)
(Edited)
choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects.
#52. To: Tooconservative (#49)
(Edited)
the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory.
#53. To: VxH (#51)
When I cleaned the rabbit - the bullet was still inside. Inside a mess. The bullet entered at the should, struck bone, and then did a little magic dance through various organs before ending up in the blood filled abdominal cavity.
#54. To: VxH (#50)
The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it.
#55. To: Tooconservative (#53)
"don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad".
#56. To: Tooconservative (#54)
(Edited)
Maybe your instructors were just repeating gun gossip.
* The casualty has no exit wound.
* Where is the bullet and what are the possible associated complications of related internal injuries?
#57. To: Tooconservative (#47)
You probably have the most important parts already stockpiled.
#58. To: Tooconservative (#49)
I thought the whole tumbling thing was considered even more unlikely than the shoot-to-wound-deliberately theory.
#59. To: VxH (#50)
(Edited)
The tumbling nature of the .223 was taught in Basic Training - circa 1986, when/where I first learned of it.
#60. To: VxH (#51)
choosing particular ammo has longlasting effects.
#61. To: Tooconservative (#53)
I've read that same thing many times, about .22 rounds just wandering around the body, wreaking havoc as they go. And then there are the other stories like "don't shoot a man with a .22, you'll just make him mad". We've all heard this stuff, a lot more than we've ever seen serious studies and proof of how true it is.
#62. To: sneakypete (#59)
(Edited)
"Mangled tissue and softball-sized exit wounds: Why AR-15 injuries are so devastating"
#63. To: VxH (#62)
I heard the same thing when I was issued on at Bragg in the summer of 1964.Always by people who had never shot anyone with a .223 round or an AR-15.
#64. To: sneakypete (#63)
(Edited)
Tumbling is tumbling.
#65. To: VxH (#64)
Tumbling in the air affects accuracy and range, which was improved with the increased bore twists.
#66. To: sneakypete (#65)
the final result when they meet meat and bone is the same.
#67. To: VxH (#66)
Not when the physics of mass are taken int account.
#68. To: sneakypete (#67)
(Edited)
>>>>>Not when the physics of mass are taken int account.
#69. To: VxH (#68)
(Edited)
What does this mean?
#70. To: sneakypete (#69)
(Edited)
#71. To: VxH (#70)
What is directional stability and how do velocity and mass affect it?
#72. To: sneakypete (#71)
Oh,geeze! You are one of those geeks that think math is the answer to everything.
#73. To: VxH (#72)
Which law is that associated with?
#74. To: sneakypete (#73)
>>>>Newtons First Law.
Too many unknowns,
#75. To: VxH (#74)
Too many unknowns,
#76. To: sneakypete (#75)
and humidity,bullet manufacturer,etc,etc,etc.
Humidity is a variable.
Bullet manufacturer is a variable.
Every Etc. is a variable.
Scientific modelling — Science Learning Hub
https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/575-scientific- modelling
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