Creationism/Evolution
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Title: "Best Critique of Evolution You Will Ever Hear"
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Published: Sep 1, 2017
Author: PNN
Post Date: 2017-09-01 17:33:27 by A K A Stone
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Views: 14471
Comments: 71
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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)
I have been saying this for decade or more. Evolution only works with in species and there has never been a species to species change. Faith is faith. They claim science when in fact it is no different than religious faith. Creationism should be taught right along with evolutionism because both are just as plausible as the other.
Ever heard of the creation museum or the Ark encounter?
No?
https://creationmuseum.org/ They are both in Kentucky. I haven't been yet but I've met the founder Ken Ham.
The problem with creationism is that it pretty much cannot be proven. I've considered it a "default" theory, which can be embraced when no other theory, such as evolution, is found to be satisfactory. If one is to embrace creationism because of lack of satisfactory proof of evolution, then a logical question is, if proof is a requirement to believe, then where is the proof of creationism? The narrator asks if evolution observable, demonstratable, repeatable and quantifiable, but those requirements are completely lacking in creationism. To be fair, one must judge both by the same measure, and creationism most certainly fails on all 4 points. So far as I know, evolution theory does have more to explain than has been explained thus far, namely how a new species can arise that has more genetic coding than the species it supposedly evolved from. On the other hand, science is claiming that much unused genetic material exists in plants and animals. For example, chicken DNA supposedly has coding for growing teeth. I would consider DNA coding for teeth in chickens to be evidence in support of evolution. I also read that Bananas, have about 50% more DNA material than us humans do, in spite of being a far simpler form of life. I do understand why it is important for bible-believing Christians that creationism be the explanation for the origin of life, and it's because it's the only way man (us) can have an immortal soul existence. If all life is simply a complex biochemical reaction, and man evolved from animals, then we are the same as animals and face the same fate as animals. We live and die, gone forever. A very bleak thing indeed. My personal understanding and outlook on the matter allows both for evolution and an immortal soul existence, without any conflict whatsoever. The human race may well have evolved from apes and lower life forms, including bacteria without compromising us as immortal soul entities. And frankly it makes a huge amount of sense. And, Ironically, it does allow for both evolution and intelligent design. I consider it possible that it is a combination of the two.
I do understand why it is important for bible-believing Christians that creationism be the explanation for the origin of life, and it's because it's the only way If there were any conflicts with science and creationism then people would abandon it. But there aren't. Evolution is a theory that has been disproved and for which there is zero zilch nada no evidence. I understand why it is important for atheists to cling to evolution and other wacky fantasies. They don't want to be accountable and they reject the truth.
There are plenty of people who abandon creationism and go with evolution, and plenty that do the opposite. Standards of proof obviously vary from one person to another, and it clearly has NOT been disproved to vast multitudes of people. It's safe to say most people accept it, even if some questions about it are still unanswered. But lack of full understanding does not mean a whole theory is wrong. There is much about the human body, astronomy and physics that is not fully understood either, but that doesn't mean those things don't exist or are completely wrong. I don't contest that. But there are bible believing Christians that cling to creationism for equally unfair reasons having nothing to do with evidence or science. People have an enormous capacity to believe things out of emotional need rather than in adherence to science and true evidence.
What is the evidence for creationism?
Really? Can you tell me exactly how their atheist lives are richer or fuller or detail how their lives are better (or worse) because of evolution? How about Christians? Can you tell me exactly how their Christian lives are richer or fuller or detail how their lives are better (or worse) because of creationism? The truth is that creationism and evolution may line the pockets of some loudmouths and scammers in both evolutionist and creationist camps but the vast vast majority of mankind neither cares nor needs to have an opinion about creation or evolution. Creationism and evolution will not make one iota of difference in their lives in the short term or the long term. Wack!
Here is how creationism works. There were people in the past who wrote down what happened in the Bible. If those things written are true then there should be some things in this world that we can observe to see if what is written is possible. Let's start with the population of earth. How long does it take for earth population to double. If we started with two people or better yet 8 people that were on the Ark. Is there enough time elapsed to account for the current population. Yes there is. I'm on a tablet so you can find your own links or do your own math of you wish. The timeline liberals give us with evolution is billions of years. Not sure how many years they say humans have been around. It changes constantly with those folks. Anyhow their math doesn't add up. Not enough people. Let's take another example. The Bible says there was a world wide flood. If that were true what would you expect to find? Millions of dead Thom Mgs buried in mud laid out by water all over the earth. That is what you find. If there weren't dead creatures all over the earth buried in mud then we could conclude the Bible is a fable. But there are dead things buried in mud all over the earth. There are no conflicts with the Bible and science. There are too many to count with the evolution fairy tale.
Dont6 be a lamer. While you are correct about evolution. You are grossly wrong about creationism. If it wasn't for creationism many more people would be tricked by evolutionists. It would short circuit their faith. Evolution is a clever attack on the foundation of the Bible. If people can be tricked into believing the lie of evolution. They will say there was no Adam and Eve therefore what is the purpose of Jesus. There would be no point without original sin. So creationism is just explaining our world to people so they can have some information that will counter the lie of evolution. Then if they believe they are accountable instead of unaccountable for their actions. They will generally be better people. So creationism is in fact very important.
Also we only reproduce after like kind. For example bananas never turn into people.
I think it is something people yak about. Not something that actually matters in their daily lives. I think the majority of the public doesn't care much where we came from. There are small factions of creationists and evolutionists who make money from or rise in their hierarchy as a result of holding a strident position.
Certainly true. The bottom line that everyone can agree on is that "we are here", so the question of origin is, for most, academic. Literally. For some people the question is more important, for many less important. It simply depends on one's manner of thinking. There are atheists who believe in evolution but are still are upstanding, moral people that care about the well being of others. That is certainly true. As I see it, God does not care about our academic beliefs, whether about science or theology. The purpose of life is to grow, enhancing virtues and quashing vices, and both can happen independent of academia.
I see it this way: A long time ago, as intellect grew, people started to question their identity and sought to explain why things, both good and bad, happened to them. Without much in the way of scientific understanding, and yet with intuitive understanding that they were indeed spiritually special (yet not understanding why), parents likely created stories for their children to teach them lessons or satisfy their curiosity, or compel them to perform better. With each passing generation, stories were modified and enhanced, adding new elements and removing bad ones. The biblical book of Genesis is the result of one such story (actually two versions of creation are in the bible, the second beginning in chapter 2, verse 4, I think it is. At least, if one begins reading at that point, it reads as though it's the start of a new story of creation, though the two versions do not really conflict with one another). Other cultures worldwide had their own versions of man's origins, but perhaps in part because the people now known as ancient Israelites had the ability to write and record, and because of just how world events eventually shaped as Rome adopted Christianity, what is currently in the bible became a very popular standard. With evolution, the definition of "human" is ultimately subjective, I think. But in estimating population growth, one must account for harsh living conditions (the earth was supposedly in an ice age from about 110,000 years ago until just 11,000 years ago, not that long before man reached civilized status, which may not be any coincidence) and much shorter average lifespans. In any event, just because some evidence is consistent with a claim, that does not prove the claim is true. In the case of the great flood, there is evidence that the surface of the Black Sea used to be below the ocean sea level, and was flooded in a few weeks time when the Mediterranean sea finally breached a separating mountain ridge. Certainly any people fleeing and surviving that kind of flood would have been compelled to explain why it happened, and that event may have been a legendary origin for the story of Noah. There are other cultures that also have a story about a great flood, not just the biblical one (though to be fair, the biblical account states that all cultures after the flood were descended from Noah, so they would naturally be knowledgeable of the biblical account). It depends on who you ask. To me it is quite reasonable that the universe is as old as it is large, and the literal take of the Bible that the earth was just 6000 years old has never, ever struck me as a reasonable suggestion.
The narrator asks if evolution observable, demonstratable, repeatable and quantifiable, but those requirements are completely lacking in creationism. To be fair, one must judge both by the same measure, and creationism most certainly fails on all 4 points. I have to differ here. Creationism works. You plug it in and it all works. Where evolutionism only works within species. Even evolution within species works within creationism. As science gets better the bible becomes backed up by science. If not for the muddled east I think many more things would have been found by now which bolster the bible which bolsters creationism. Creationism is the only thing that explains existence as we know it. Zero evidence that we all came from pond scum exist but its thrown out as the only viable theory. Which is not true. When you see that everything is so organized and logical you see that there is greater power that created it all. DNA is so limited in understanding that it is misused to prove what is not actual but what one wants it to be. In the end no one knows for sure and thats why its not settled. Each group holds onto its faith as if it were science. Why its so hard for people to just say "This is what I believe. I can not prove it but its the best plausible answer to me." I know lots of money and funding at stake to be humble.
spoken like a Two year old waTer just bubbling down hill arTesion spring sludge If you ... don't use exclamation points --- you should't be typeing ! Commas - semicolons - question marks are for girlie boys !
I did not say that creationism does not work. I merely pointed out that the requirements the narrator placed on evolution, that the theory be "observable, demonstratable, repeatable and quantifiable" are requirements that creationism fails. At least the first 3. For example, when is the last time we observed a life form being divinely created? When has it been demonstrated or repeated? We have never witnessed any of those things. So why does the author make demands upon evolution that creationism fails to answer as well? That we do not know. It used to be said that heavier than air objects cannot fly, but that intuitive claim was eventually disproven. Just because we do not understand all about evolution does not mean it is completely wrong. If chickens do indeed possess DNA for growing teeth, I would consider that evidence (though perhaps not proof) in support of evolution. With creationism, there would be no reason for chickens to possess such DNA. (though a web search just now seems to show some discussion about how that can be under creationism).
Creationism can't explain banana-head BorisY. God must have evolved a bunch of rotten bananas at the Chiquita warehouse, into Boris! LiveScience: Surprise: Chickens Can Grow Teeth : )
The majority may not be thinking about it all the time. But when they fall for the lie of evolution subconsciously for the rest of their lives constantly it causes them to reject gods word. You could also look at vpcreationism as just answering questions of skeptical and showing the people that they can believe in gods word and that it is reliable and not a fable. So most of us aren't talking about it all the time but once we come to a conclusion it is affecting us all the time.
Nice attempt at backfilling. However, if you weren't exposed to all these crevo threads all the time on the internet, I doubt you'd ever give much thought to the topic at all. The same is true for about 99% of the public. Even people like pastors or evolutionary biologists just don't give it all that much thought unless someone is churning them up over the issue. I didn't ping you to it but maybe you'd enjoy my favorite new Christian #FakeNews site. It's a hoot. Here's where I posted about it here at LF. Some really funny stuff and not just the low-hanging Pope Frank stuff either.
Before the internet i knew about this stuff. Ive been to seminars in the 80's. I'm not the typical person though. What do you mean by backfilling?
The content of your link (at least the titles) sounded about as funny as sneakypetes joke he told the other day.
The site looks to be humor from a conservative Prot/Baptist/Reformed viewpoint. And, yes, it is pretty funny.
For me, it's not a question of falling for a "lie" or being deceived, it's a question of whether to be honest or not honest about what I observe about life, the universe, and everything. There are no doubt many Christians who call themselves such out of "I fear for my [eternal] life" reasons. That is, they don't want to burn in hell for all eternity, so they are Christian. Have they applied critical thought to the validity of the faith? I know many have, I'm sure many have not. And if someone, after full consideration, honestly concludes that they do not believe the bible could be the literal "Word of God", is it reasonable to believe that God would punish this person in a lake of fire for all eternity, while eternally rewarding someone who simply buried the issue out of their head and pretended to believe it was? I'm not at that point. There is no doubt in my mind that honesty is a virtue, even if that honesty is one that expresses doubt, and if there is one thing for which we will be judged, it will be on whether we lived honestly with real doubts or if we instead pretended to believe something we really don't because we were afraid. For me, the former is more virtuous, and I cannot for a moment believe that God would judge me for the worse for taking that path. And in my opinion, anyone who subscribes to any faith out of fear instead of sincerity is not being honest. And if they are not being honest, then that is something for which they may be judged as lacking.
Have you observed a chicken egg hatching something besides a chicken? Have you observed an apple tree changing into a new kind of tree. Have you witnessed any changes in any plant or animal species? Me neither. I see things reproducing after like kind. Exclusively. Have you ever been hypnotized and talked to God? Exactly what observations are you talking about?
Yes. Because they have rejected the truth.
I don't think pretenders cut it because of this verse. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Have you ever done things immoral and wrong? Yes you have and so have I and everyone else. Why would god take people who can't even say they are sorry for the wrong they did? Ask and ye shall receive.
So why doesn't God make everyone into perfect beings and allow them all into heaven? It would actually be more cruel if God were to do this, since many people prefer hell to the alternative (complete submission to God). All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
No, but neither have I observed a new life form being created out of nothing, and I'm pretty sure no one else has either. Can one be so certain that when one speaks, God does not listen, or that when thoughts and understanding enter one's mind, it did not originate from God? So maybe I have talked to God. Maybe everyone has. Everything from physical evidence of life and geology on earth and the stars in the sky to interactions with other people. Everything. Your own beliefs are also based on observations, are they not? You have observed the Bible and the stories it contains, and believe it.
But they have not rejected honesty. Would not God cherish one's honesty about lack of academic understanding more than the capacity to understand itself? If a typical parent would not condemn a child to death for being wrong about something, and parents are far inferior in capacity to love and forgive than God, how much less likely is God to condemn one of his kids for "rejecting the truth"? I say infinitely less so. One's academic understanding of God is surely not what God cares about most. Your position is not logical at all.
Because he's God. If mere people are virtuous enough to tolerate and accept others in spite of their imperfections, how much more likely is God to do that? Do you believe God is less tolerant and virtuous than people are?
There is, in my opinion, a much better theological model than the one that says we live once and be judged to enter heaven or hell for all eternity, and the qualities of this model are objectively superior to the standard Christian model (though such analysis of objective superiority is not proof it is correct). The model that includes reincarnation has the following benefits/advantages: 1) We are not limited to a single lifetime that determines our eternal fate. 2) An untimely murder or death does not deprive a victim of opportunities to continue to grow spiritually. 3) We have complete free will in the lives we live, including the choice to live at all. 4) Tragic circumstances, such as the loss of a loved one or being born handicapped serves a deeper, positive & pragmatic good. 5) Our life on earth serves a very real, pragmatic and understandable purpose that is for our direct benefit, and not for an obtuse purpose of "glorifying God" or what ever other descriptive terms Christianity would deem. 6) We all grow at our own pace according to our own desire. Those that grow are rewarded with that growth. 7) We are not penalized for growing up and living full lives in alternate cultures that do not teach what happens to be a "correct" theology. 8) Under this model, it's much easier to forgive others, as we see in a different light that all are on their own paths, and how wrongdoers will eventually voluntarily choose to suffer the same harm they have caused others so they can understand and grow into better souls. Under Christianity, death is a door we pass through only once, after which free will is gone forever and we get either eternal damnation or bliss. The decision to die is often left to other people, whether murderers or normal people that make mistakes. The length of time we have to decide about God can be limited to less than a few years, in the case of children dying. Those born severely handicapped had no choice in the matter. Spiritual growth is not particularly important. It's far easier to take on the mindset that there is "a special place in hell" for those who have caused great harm and hate them. Under the model I subscribe to, we have an eternity to grow which reflects the virtues of great love and patience that Christianity itself correctly teaches about God. It works sooooooo much better in just about every way, and is much more consistent with a God that is eternally wise, loving & patient, which are all qualities that even Christianity teaches that God possesses. And one might ask: If God, being God and being all powerful, wise and loving had a choice on how to design the entire spiritual relationship between him and man, would he not choose a design that is more virtuous over another that is less so? Would he not choose a design that does NOT require him to condemn most of his children to hell for all eternity? If it is true that, "With God, all things are possible" is it then possible for God to allow reincarnation? For me, the well considered answer to these questions is "Yes", and it is consistent with those cases of people who have past life recall. I will say though that Christianity is not a bad faith at all. While I do see the doctrinal points about sin and judgment to be in error, it is nonetheless a great faith in all it teaches about virtuous living, of loving, forgiving and helping others.
I think that the main reason is that if Genesis is taken as allegory and not as literal fact, then the whole rigidly literalist structure of fundamentalist theology comes crashing to the ground. For if Genesis is allegory, then the Gospels, or Paul's letters, or anything else on which they build their religion may also be allegory, and they lose the ability to insist on the literal application of those things they like that run contrary to sentiments of other Christians.
I think you lack the perspective of those who know without a doubt that God exists and that he does communicate with believers. God has told us in his word what he wants us to know, he gives us the bare bones, not every detail. Einstein summed it up well; I just want to know the thought of God, everything else is just the details. Genesis tells us that God was active in creation and specifically had a purpose for man. You can say that is allegory if you want, but don't include Paul and the Apostles in your generalisation. These are people who understood far more than you do because they experienced it, and just maybe you should examine the old testament from the same perspective
Loved the Joel Osteen yacht one. Calvinist buddy of mine over at CF posted that one on CF. You would be amazed how many people thought it was real. My all time fav at the Bee is still the one about a boy became a Calvinist because of vaccines. That one went 3 pages before everyone realized it was fake news.
I hate to defend him but that is not a good one. Osteen's church was mostly flooded itself and they point out that they were never asked to provide shelter and that their location within the flood would make it very hard to get supplies and people to their mostly-flooded church. Okay, that's the last time I ever say a word to defend that phony.
I broke my neck in a lake and was paralyzed and sank to the bottom drowning, alone. God reached down and healed my neck. Later, God grabbed my face and talked to me. I have seen the City. I have had the Holy Dove dive into my face and disappear into my head in an explosion of light to drive off a visible demon that was physically attacking me. Nobody on this earth has greater certitude of the existence of God than me. You want to teach me with condescension, but you don't know what you are talking about. You simply believe what other men have told you, and they had no greater direct knowledge of God than I do - probably less. So, if you want to talk about God, we can. But you just want to tell me what you believe about a book, and I'm not interested in what you believe about a book. I have my own beliefs about that book, and there is not one good reason on earth for ME to substitute MY experience and belief about it for that of anybody who doesn't know God as well as I do. Now, if you'd like to come up off of your pulpit, way down there in the deep valley, and join me up here on the mountaintop, we can speak as equals. But if you're going to try to speak to me with authority, you are very much mistaken. I have more than you do on this matter.
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#2. To: Justified (#1)
#3. To: A K A Stone (#2)
Ever heard of the creation museum or the Ark encounter?
#4. To: Justified (#3)
(Edited)
#5. To: Justified (#1)
#6. To: Pinguinite (#5)
The problem with creationism is that it pretty much cannot be proven.
#7. To: A K A Stone (#6)
(Edited)
If there were any conflicts with science and creationism then people would abandon it.
But there aren't.
Evolution is a theory that has been disproved and for which there is zero zilch nada no evidence.
I understand why it is important for atheists to cling to evolution and other wacky fantasies. They don't want to be accountable and they reject the truth.
#8. To: A K A Stone, Pinguinite (#6)
Evolution is a theory that has been disproved and for which there is zero zilch nada no evidence.
#9. To: A K A Stone, Pinguinite, nolu chan (#6)
I understand why it is important for atheists to cling to evolution and other wacky fantasies.
#10. To: nolu chan (#8)
#11. To: Tooconservative (#9)
#12. To: nolu chan, pinguinite (#8)
#13. To: A K A Stone (#11)
While you are correct about evolution. You are grossly wrong about creationism.
#14. To: Tooconservative (#9)
the vast vast majority of mankind neither cares nor needs to have an opinion about creation or evolution. Creationism and evolution will not make one iota of difference in their lives in the short term or the long term.
#15. To: A K A Stone (#10)
Here is how creationism works. There were people in the past who wrote down what happened in the Bible. If those things written are true then there should be some things in this world that we can observe to see if what is written is possible.
Let's start with the population of earth. How long does it take for earth population to double. If we started with two people or better yet 8 people that were on the Ark. Is there enough time elapsed to account for the current population. Yes there is. I'm on a tablet so you can find your own links or do your own math of you wish. The timeline liberals give us with evolution is billions of years. Not sure how many years they say humans have been around. It changes constantly with those folks. Anyhow their math doesn't add up. Not enough people.
Let's take another example. The Bible says there was a world wide flood. If that were true what would you expect to find? Millions of dead Thom Mgs buried in mud laid out by water all over the earth. That is what you find. If there weren't dead creatures all over the earth buried in mud then we could conclude the Bible is a fable. But there are dead things buried in mud all over the earth.
There are no conflicts with the Bible and science. There are too many to count with the evolution fairy tale.
#16. To: Pinguinite (#5)
If one is to embrace creationism because of lack of satisfactory proof of evolution, then a logical question is, if proof is a requirement to believe, then where is the proof of creationism?
#17. To: Tooconservative (#9)
#18. To: Justified (#16)
The narrator asks if evolution observable, demonstratable, repeatable and quantifiable, but those requirements are completely lacking in creationism. To be fair, one must judge both by the same measure, and creationism most certainly fails on all 4 points.
I have to differ here. Creationism works. You plug it in and it all works. Where evolutionism only works within species. Even evolution within species works within creationism.
Where evolutionism only works within species.
Zero evidence that we all came from pond scum exist
#19. To: A K A Stone, BorisY (#12)
bananas never turn into people.
#20. To: Pinguinite, Justified (#18)
If chickens do indeed possess DNA for growing teeth, I would consider that evidence (though perhaps not proof) in support of evolution.
#21. To: Tooconservative (#13)
#22. To: A K A Stone (#21)
(Edited)
#23. To: Tooconservative (#22)
#24. To: Tooconservative (#22)
#25. To: A K A Stone (#24)
The content of your link (at least the titles) sounded about as funny as sneakypetes joke he told the other day.
#26. To: A K A Stone (#21)
The majority may not be thinking about it all the time. But when they fall for the lie of evolution subconsciously for the rest of their lives constantly it causes them to reject gods word. You could also look at vpcreationism as just answering questions of skeptical and showing the people that they can believe in gods word and that it is reliable and not a fable.
So most of us aren't talking about it all the time but once we come to a conclusion it is affecting us all the time.
#27. To: Pinguinite (#26)
For me, it's not a question of falling for a "lie" or being deceived, it's a question of whether to be honest or not honest about what I observe about life
#28. To: Pinguinite (#26)
And if someone, after full consideration, honestly concludes that they do not believe the bible could be the literal "Word of God", is it reasonable to believe that God would punish this person in a lake of fire for all eternity
#29. To: Pinguinite (#26)
while eternally rewarding someone who simply buried the issue out of their head and pretended to believe it was?
#30. To: Pinguinite (#26)
For me, the former is more virtuous, and I cannot for a moment believe that God would judge me for the worse for taking that path.
#31. To: Pinguinite (#26)
#32. To: A K A Stone (#27)
Have you observed a chicken egg hatching something besides a chicken?
Have you observed an apple tree changing into a new kind of tree.
Have you witnessed any changes in any plant or animal species? Me neither.
Have you ever been hypnotized and talked to God?
Exactly what observations are you talking about?
#33. To: A K A Stone (#28)
And if someone, after full consideration, honestly concludes that they do not believe the bible could be the literal "Word of God", is it reasonable to believe that God would punish this person in a lake of fire for all eternity
Yes. Because they have rejected the truth.
#34. To: A K A Stone (#30)
Why would god take people who can't even say they are sorry for the wrong they did?
#35. To: A K A Stone (#31)
So why doesn't God make everyone into perfect beings and allow them all into heaven? It would actually be more cruel if God were to do this, since many people prefer hell to the alternative (complete submission to God). All the people who end up going to hell will have done so because they actually prefer hell to being forced into the presence of God for all eternity. People like to live in their favorite sins and answer to no one else. They know that if they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior that God will want them to change their lives and they might have to give up some of their autonomy. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html
#36. To: Pinguinite (#5)
I do understand why it is important for bible-believing Christians that creationism be the explanation for the origin of life
#37. To: Vicomte13 (#36)
I think that the main reason is that if Genesis is taken as allegory and not as literal fact, then the whole rigidly literalist structure of fundamentalist theology comes crashing to the ground. For if Genesis is allegory, then the Gospels, or Paul's letters, or anything else on which they build their religion is allegory
#38. To: Tooconservative (#22)
I didn't ping you to it but maybe you'd enjoy my favorite new Christian #FakeNews site. It's a hoot. Here's where I posted about it here at LF. Some really funny stuff and not just the low-hanging Pope Frank stuff either.
#39. To: redleghunter (#38)
Loved the Joel Osteen yacht one. Calvinist buddy of mine over at CF posted that one on CF. You would be amazed how many people thought it was real.
#40. To: paraclete (#37)
I think you lack the perspective of those who know without a doubt that God exists and that he does communicate with believers.
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