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Title: Corporate America Is Just 7 States Short of a Constitutional Convention
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://inthesetimes.com/article/189 ... rate-constitutional-convention
Published: Mar 14, 2016
Author: SIMON DAVIS-COHEN
Post Date: 2016-03-14 18:16:47 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 10378
Comments: 89

In February, Republican presidential hopeful Sen. Ted Cruz (Texas) signed on to a call for a constitutional convention to help defeat “the Washington cartel [that] has put special interest spending ahead of the American people.”

Cruz, along with fellow Republican presidential aspirants Sen. Marco Rubio (Fla.) and Gov. John Kasich (Ohio), has endorsed an old conservative goal of a Constitutional amendment to mandate a balanced federal budget. The idea sounds fanciful, but free-market ideologues associated with the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a secretive group of right-wing legislators and their corporate allies, are close to pulling off a coup that could devastate the economy, which is just emerging from a recession. Their scheme could leave Americans reeling for generations. A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy during an economic depression by increasing the national debt. (Since 1970, the United States has had a balanced budget in only four years: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001.)

Article V of the Constitution lays out two routes for changing the law of the land: An amendment can be proposed by Congress or by a constitutional convention that is convened by two-thirds of the states (34). Either way, three-fourths of the states (38) have to ratify it. Previously, changes to the country’s founding document have been achieved by the first process. But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the twothirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

The ALEC-affiliated Balanced Budget Amendment Task Force (BBATF), which proffered the pledge signed by Cruz, is hoping to meet that 34-state threshold by July 4. BBATF is one player in an astroturf movement backed by the billionaire Koch brothers and embraced by right-wing state legislators.

A balanced budget amendment has long been a holy grail for the Right since the 1930s. In the 1980s, conservatives made a push for a balanced budget constitutional convention and, 20 years later, the idea was resurrected as part of the Tea Party platform. That’s when BBATF was formed to carry the movement forward. With 16 resolutions held over from the previous wave of conservative activism, BBATF has since passed resolutions in Alabama (2011), New Hampshire (2012), Ohio (2013), Georgia, Tennessee, Florida, Michigan, Louisiana (2014), South Dakota, North Dakota and Utah (2015), bringing the total to 27. This year, BBATF is targeting 13 states: Arizona, Idaho, Kentucky, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin and Wyoming. In six of these states Republicans control both legislative bodies and the governorship, making passage a real possibility and leaving BBATF one state shy of the magic 34.

Domino effect While the BBATF’s 27 resolutions are tied specifically to the balanced budget amendment, a group called Citizens for Self-Governance launched a project called Convention of States, whose proposal for a constitutional convention has also been adopted by ALEC as a model policy. Convention of States has passed resolutions calling for a convention in Florida, Georgia (2014), Alabama, Arkansas (2015) and Tennessee (2016). Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution.

Both BBATF and Convention of States have struggled to address worries of a runaway convention. What would stop it from turning out like the Philadelphia Convention of 1787, which led to the scrapping of the Articles of Confederation and the drafting of an entirely new U.S. Constitution?

To address these concerns, a group called Compact for America, which has passed resolutions in Alaska, Georgia, Mississippi and North Dakota, has proposed that states combine their calls for a constitutional convention with the final ratification process. This would mean states attending the convention would propose the amendment and ratify it in one fell swoop, which would require the 38 states needed for ratification under Article V, not just the 34 needed to call a convention.

Convention of States and BBATF have tried to quell fears of a runaway convention by saying the convention would be bound by the subject matter of the resolutions, and that the convention only has the power to propose amendments, which then must be ratified by the required 38 states.

That the subject matter of the resolutions will prevent a runaway convention may make sense in reference to the BBATF, whose resolutions focus specifically on the balanced budget amendment, but when applied to the Convention of States’ agenda, the argument fails, as the subject of their resolutions includes broad language to curb the power and jurisdiction of the federal government. Convention of States spokesman Michael Farris has written that, “It is relatively certain that there would be at least a few amendments proposed, perhaps as many as 10 to 12.” In other words, if Convention of States has its way, there could well be a runaway convention.

Within striking distance Arn Pearson at the Center for Media and Democracy, a watchdog group based in Madison, Wisc., is closely tracking the movement. He describes the campaign for a constitutional convention as “a very live threat.” “If between the groups they get to 34 states,” he says, “there is really nothing preventing them from aggregating those calls even if they’re not identical, and pushing for a convention.”

Another uncertainty, Pearson notes, is the controversy over whether the 16 resolutions left over from the effort in the 1980s can still be counted. There is no precedent to lean on. Pro-convention advocates maintain that Congress, which is tasked with processing the states’ applications, may not meddle with the process. If a state doesn’t want a convention, they argue, it can rescind its application. Pearson suspects the Supreme Court would get involved.

“There are a lot of different parts of the Koch machine pulling on this oar,” says Pearson, “from their think tanks up through their elected officials, they’re pushing on it. They’re pushing on it hard.” And, given how red BBATF’s 2016 target states are, says Pearson, “it’s within striking distance. If [ALEC and the Koch brothers] get a convention,” says Pearson, “they get to lock in their conservative supply-side policies for the next generation or more. That’s where they’re going.”

The Kochs and company, with their gridlock of Washington, have bred a type of discontent that has made once unimaginable change possible.

Tugging on citizen discontent, Convention of States’ propaganda highlights the 2013 government shutdown, creeping NSA surveillance, Gallup polls showing Americans’ dissatisfaction with “government” and tales of federal bureaucratic waste.

But such a convention is not the tonic to satiate this discontent. Democratic control is what the American people yearn for, but that is not what the convention would offer.

Maybe the alternative is the revolution Bernie Sanders is envisioning: Electing insurgent candidates to Congress, state and local office; strengthening and expanding direct democratic institutions like the ballot initiative process; making constitutional changes that elevate democratic decisions above corporate personhood; and building a movement that engages the thousands of communities where democratic governance has been all but quashed by ALEC-endorsed legal doctrine and legislation.

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#1. To: A K A Stone (#0)

A balanced budget amendment would prevent the federal government from following the Keynesian strategy of stimulating the economy during an economic depression by increasing the national debt.

They say that just like it would be a bad thing.

Which I guess it would be if you were a banker or member of an organization that profits from deficit spending.

For working class taxpayers,it would be a gift from heaven.

ISLAM MEANS SUBMISSION!

Why is democracy held in such high esteem when it’s the enemy of the minority and makes all rights relative to the dictates of the majority? (Ron Paul,2012)

American Indians had open borders. Look at how well that worked out for them.

sneakypete  posted on  2016-03-14   18:26:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: A K A Stone (#0)

But as of today, 27 states—seven shy of the two thirds threshold required by Article V—have passed resolutions calling for a constitutional convention to consider a balanced budget amendment.

What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-14   18:29:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: SOSO (#2)

What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement.

I agree with you. It is a terrible idea.

Why do you think Levin pushes it?

With only 7 states to go it is probably going to happen at some point.

Hopefully some states start repealing.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-14   18:32:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#3)

With only 7 states to go it is probably going to happen at some point.

I believe that the secular progressive turds are licking their chops.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-14   18:33:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: A K A Stone, unallocated (#3)

SOSO --- What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement.

I agree with you. It is a terrible idea. --- AKA

-- "Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution." ----

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document. --- Thus 'drastic' changes are impossible. Civil war is not an option.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   19:18:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: A K A Stone, Y'ALL (#3)

SOSO --- What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement.

I agree with you. It is a terrible idea. --- AKA

-- "Convention of States advocates a constitutional convention to not only pass a balanced budget amendment, but also to curtail the “power and jurisdiction of the federal government.” What precisely this means and how it would be accomplished is not clear. This uncertainty at once whets the appetite of anti-government zealots while raising serious concerns about a “runaway” convention that could make drastic changes to the Constitution." ----

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document. --- Thus 'drastic' changes are impossible. Civil war is not an option.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   19:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: tpaine (#6)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document.

That is a silly thoery.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-14   19:24:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: A K A Stone (#7)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document. --- Thus 'drastic' changes are impossible. Civil war is not an option.

That is a silly thoery.

Millions of gun owning constitutionalists would prove your thoery wrong.

It is no theory that the last civil war was caused by less provocation.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   19:34:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: A K A Stone (#0)

A Constitutional Convention effort CALLED FORTH by Trump, and spearheaded and organized by Trump, would allow the amendment of things that the Supreme Court and the crony capitalists in Congress will otherwise prevent.

So, if the Convention comes during the Trump era, with Trump leadership and discipline encouraging it, I think the results would be pretty good.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-14   19:35:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: tpaine (#8)

Millions of gun owning constitutionalists would prove your thoery wrong.

It is no theory that the last civil war was caused by less provocation.

They sat and watched Obama. I'm not so sure.

Besides it would be legal. Not right necessarily but legal.

A K A Stone  posted on  2016-03-14   19:44:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Vicomte13 (#9)

To: A K A Stone A Constitutional Convention effort CALLED FORTH by Trump, and spearheaded and organized by Trump, would allow the amendment of things that the Supreme Court and the crony capitalists in Congress will otherwise prevent.

"The Case for Mandating Gun Ownership" would be an excellent example of such an amendment.

Can you imagine the howl that would go up from that proposal??

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   19:44:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: A K A Stone (#10) (Edited)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document. --- Thus 'drastic' changes are impossible.

----it would be legal. Not right necessarily but legal.

It would be legal to amend away our inalienable rights, as per the Bill of Rights in the Constitution?

What law school did you attend? (I went to Common Sense U.)

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   19:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: tpaine (#8)

Millions of gun owning constitutionalists would prove your thoery wrong.

Who are these people? Better hurry before Hillary gets elected.

U don't know me  posted on  2016-03-14   20:12:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: U don't know me, Y'ALL (#13)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document. --- Thus 'drastic' changes are impossible. Civil war is not an option.

AKA ---- That is a silly thoery.

Millions of gun owning constitutionalists would prove your thoery wrong.

It is no theory that the last civil war was caused by less provocation.

Who are these people? Better hurry before Hillary gets elected. ---- U don't know me

No one here will ever get to know you if you keep asking silly questions and making stupid comments like that.. --- Get a grip.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-14   20:38:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: SOSO (#2)

" What makes them think that the convention would limit the resolution(s) to just balancing the Federal budget? A constitutional convention would be a total disaster for the conservative movement. "

I do not think it would be limited. I think it is a terrible idea. I do not know why guys like Levin push it.

Rather than a convention,why don't they just try following the constitution we already have.

If they do not, we have plenty of tall trees & lightposts, all we need is a lot of cheap rope.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   2:12:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Stoner (#15)

why don't they just try following the constitution we already have.

Many people think we do.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-15   8:52:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Vicomte13 (#16)

" Many people think we do. "

Counsellor, I think you would agree that those people are wrong!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   10:47:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Stoner (#17)

Counsellor, I think you would agree that those people are wrong!

Actually, no I don't.

I think our Constitution is written in a very open style that lends itself to all sorts of interpretations.

It was written by a narrow cadre of men: the upper class colonial gentry, without the input of the majority of the population (add together women, black slaves and Indians back then and you had a significant unrepresented majority).

The language is fixed on those things that the white make gentry agreed upon in 1787, but becomes vague on those things that even they did not agree upon, such as the limits of speech, or what constituted "commerce", or over the bounds of courts and the like.

The political conflicts began immediately. The second President signed the Alien and Sedition Act, which made criticism of the government a federal crime! The Founders themselves did not agree on what "freedom of speech" or "freedom of the press" meant.

They fought over these meanings, and we've been fighting ever since.

By my standards, the original Constitution was a failure. The country dissolved into Civil War in 1861 because the institution of, and opposition to, slavery was stronger than whatever allegiance the men of that era had to a piece of paper.

The Civil War was fought and won outside of the Constitution, and a new Constitution was imposed by the victors at the end of the war. Once again this was done by the decisions of a minority of the population, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

American politics have been turbulent and, compared with most Atlantic European nations, very bloody. And our legal system is quite capricious and political.

Taken as a whole, I would say that our Constitution is what it has always been: largely a cypher, which the strong political movements of each successive tome drape upon themselves as a mantle of legitimacy, but which has never stood on its own and which can't, really. And the legal system that has developed under the Constitution is really quite bad, comparatively speaking. The French, British, Dutch and Scandinavians all have better legal systems and more just courts than we do, on average. Here, without our elected prosecutors, there's a real chance of getting railroaded for somebody's political statement.

The Constitution does serve as a sort of civil idol for most Americans, who afford it a reverence and statements of fealty out of proportion to what it really is, in my opinion.

But it is what it is, and we're stuck with it.

I think that the full range of people, from liberal Democrats to conservative Republicans, all believe that they are operating fully within the bounds of our Constitution, and that the Left has judicial and constitutional arguments that are as strong as the right.

To me, this shows just what an essentially meaningless piece of paper the actual Constitution really IS, and always HAS been.

It says very little, and what little it says has ALWAYS been interpreted to mean whatever the dominant party wants.

Look at the way Christians go at it over the meaning of the Bible. Each thinks that he is truly interpreting it, and each is right. The problem with written words is that they're just words, and every word has multiple meanings.

I see American politics as being much like Catholic and Protestant Christianity, with the Constitution and the Bible serving the same role in both.

I do not think that the solution to human problems is found in pieces of paper written by men, but in common sense and compassion, which are installed in us by God.

Most people find my view to be unpleasant and controversial, so they say that I'm "wrong". But most people have not read the Constitution and the case law that has come from it as well as I have, and most people don't know history very well, so they move on emotion. I move on knowledge.

Will I "support and defend" the Constitution? Sure. But my idea of support means "Make it better so that it can stand", and "defense" to me means preventing people from replacing it with raw unbridled power without rules. The Constitution really is just the rules for operating the government. And those rules are fine. The principles, though, and content of the law, are cyphers.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-15   11:19:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Vicomte13 (#18) (Edited)

Well, I expected a long answer. You certainly did not disappoint! LOL !

I still contend that they do not follow the constitution. Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-15   11:42:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Vicomte13 (#18)

most people have not read the Constitution and the case law that has come from it as well as I have, and most people don't know history very well, so they move on emotion. I move on knowledge.

So you claim, but your claim to historical knowledge is belied by your own previous words:---

The Civil War was fought and won outside of the Constitution, and a new Constitution was imposed by the victors at the end of the war. Once again this was done by the decisions of a minority of the population, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

No, --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-15   12:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Stoner, Y'ALL, vicomte13 (#19)

To Vicomte --- I still contend that they do not follow the constitution. Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot. ---- Stoner

Vicomte13 (#18--- most people have not read the Constitution and the case law that has come from it as well as I have, and most people don't know history very well, so they move on emotion. I move on knowledge.

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:01:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: tpaine (#21)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery.

That's not why it was fought.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   19:09:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Stoner (#19)

Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

Each side reads into it what they want to see, and they each really believe it.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   19:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

That's not why it was fought.

That's your exceptionally vague opinion.

Vicomte ---- to stoner ---- The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:17:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Vicomte13 (#23)

No, your knowledge of history is faulty: --- the Civil War was fought and won because some States were ignoring the Constitutional rights of men in slavery. The Constitution was amended at the end of the war to make absolutely clear that ALL levels of gov't must not infringe upon human rights. This was done by constitutional means, against the virulent resistance of an estranged minority.

This socialistic authoritarian minority still exists, for some strange reason, and notice that vicomte13 hasn't bothered to refute Stoners comment on the 2nd, -- nor mine on the civil war amendments.. Could it be that he agrees with an authoritarian minority?

That's not why it was fought.

That's your exceptionally vague opinion.

Vicomte ---- to stoner ---- The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule.

The 2nd is an exceptionally concise and well written amendment, not a "rule", -- it is part of our supreme law of the land. (See Art VI)

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-16   19:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Stoner, SOSO (#15)

I do not think it would be limited.

The authority of the original Constitutional Convention was limited to recommending amendments to the Articles of Confederation. It essentially resulted in eleven states seceding from the existing union and leaving two (NC/RI) behind, outside the new union. It created an entirely new and then-experimental form of government. The requirements for amending the AoC were trashed.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: tpaine, A K A Stone (#8)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution. The Constitution explicitly provides for people to be held answerable for capital crimes.

Following capital punishment, the subject is seperated from all rights, alienable and so-called unalienable. The right to life is taken away, and all other rights with it.

Regarding amendments, Article 5 provided for amendments with a certain restriction, "... Provided that no amendment which may be made prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article...." That made it impossible to amend the Constitution for two decades to raise the tax on slaves.

Until the 13th Amendment, slavery was constitutional. The 13th Amendment ended slavery in the North, after the war, where it still existed.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Vicomte13, Stoner (#18)

The Civil War was fought and won outside of the Constitution, and a new Constitution was imposed by the victors at the end of the war.

This is correct with the caveat that they amended the Constitution after the war, but did so in such a way to take the relationship of the state and federal governments and stand it on its head.

nolu chan  posted on  2016-03-16   19:58:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Vicomte13, tpaine (#23)

" Short example: 2nd Amendment. They infringe on it a lot.

DO they?

The 2nd Amendment is an exceptionally vaguely written rule. "

Yes they do. I agree it could have been worded differently.

The 2nd Amendment says the right to keep & bear arms " shall not be infringed ".

Go to your law library and look at all the Federal Laws & regulations relating to firearms. Then compare that to the laws relating to the First Amendment, or any of the other amendments.

That will show you a lot of "infringing".

The Founding Fathers did not write the Constitution with the intention that having a Harvard Law Degree would be required to read and understand it. The FF wanted everyone to understand it, even though they were all very well educated.

The problem begins when lawyers get involved, they want to over complicate things, and pick fly specs out of the pepper. For example, if you ask a lawyer what time it is, they will give you a two hour dissertation on how to build a watch, yet never tell you what time it is. Like Bubba saying "it depends on what the definition of is is".

This is an example of TPTB not following the constitution, why so many do not like, nor trust them. It is noteworthy that most of them are lawyers. This is part of the reason why Trump is so popular.

So yes, they DO NOT follow the Constitution ( 2nd Amendment example ). Another example would be the "Commerce Clause" which they have abused and stretched it way out of proportion to what the FF intended. If they did follow the Constitution, we would not have all the problems we do! Another quick example of them not following the constitution. The Constitution says only Congress can declare War. Yet, since the end of WWII, look how many wars we have been in, at great expense of public treasure & blood. Yet none of those had a declaration of war by Congress. I don't give a damn how anyone trys to excuse that. THAT IS WRONG. And it is not constitutional !! Another example is the Federal budget, which has exploded, simply because they have funded programs, departments, agencies etc that are NOT authorized in the constitution. Also, they have violated the constitution by having the Federal Reserve "coin" money. And,it is paper, not gold & silver as the constitution requires.

Just remember what Thomas Jefferson said: " The greatest danger to American Freedom is a government that ignores the Constitution. " And my favorite: " “Put not your faith in men, but bind them down with the chains of the constitution.”" That does not sound to me like he advocated letting them do what ever they wanted, like they do now. Other wise, what is the point of having a constitution?

If you do not like my answer, I apologize. I am not a lawyer, I am just a lowly common citizen. But I can read the US Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Anti Federalist Papers, and have even read a number of the debates. I have a rudimentary understanding of what the FF intended, and can compare / contrast that with what our ruling elites do. There is absolutely no denying that they do not follow the constitution! They want to operate like the middle ages, and that they are the dukes, earls, lords, etc, and can do any thing they want. And they do.

I fully understand what the word "infringe" means!! And I fully understand what the words SHALL NOT means.

Unfortunately, the ruling elites do not.

One last apology. I did not intend for this reply to be so verbose! And I am not a lawyer, LOL

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-16   21:24:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Stoner (#29)

Bravo Stoner! Very nicely composed rant.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2016-03-16   21:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Stoner (#29)

But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean?

For example, "no law" that abridges the "freedom of speech" "or of the press"...

So, then, it is unconstitutional to have libel laws? To have laws against sedition? To have laws against child pornography? To have laws against speaking national secrets in public? To have laws against verbal inducement to fraud?

Those are all forms of speech, and there are laws that punish all of them. Speech is very clearly abridged by those laws, and the Constitution says NO law - meaning NO law.

The problem is that the words "freedom of speech" "or of the press" do not mean the right to say whatever one wants to. It is not "abridging" the "freedom of speech" to have laws against those things, because none of those things fall within the bounds of the "freedom of speech".

Similarly, 'the right to keep and bear arms" which shall not be infringed is not a universal license to have and carry whatever weapons one chooses. It is a bounded set of things, this right.

We know that the personal weapons that men had in 1787 were within the right, but the Founders did not envision weapons of mass destruction. Those are "arms" too, but the possession of them may or may not fall within the ambit of "the right to keep and bear arms", depending on how extensive the range of that right is.

There are extremists of both sorts - those who say that the right can be rounded to zero, and those who say that the Constitution guarantees the untrammelled right to erect anti-aircraft missile batteries on your lawn on short final to LaGuardia, and to keep nukes in the basement.

There is very little willingness to be reasonable on any side.

And the Constitution is of no help in the matter, because it doesn't explain itself.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-16   23:14:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: nolu chan, stoner (#26)

The requirements for amending the AoC were trashed.

You noticed. Good for you. FYI the participants were not invited to a Constitutional Convention but a convention that was supposed to only amend the AoC. The organizers of the convention were very deceitful in organizing the convention knowing full well what they were doing. If they told the delegates their real agenda who knows how many would have showed.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-16   23:19:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: SOSO (#32) (Edited)

Sometimes men write laws that are so constricting, so confining, that they cannot get out of the box they have made for themselves other than by disregarding the law they made and making a new one.

An example: the Poles, in an excess of medieval concepts of equality among noble peers, had a rule that required unanimity in their noble chamber to pass any law. The net result was that the Polish government was crippled, unable to ever agree on anything, including fighting when Russia, Prussia and Austria were dismembering the Polish kingdom piece by piece.

Somewhat amazingly, the Poles were law abiding, right to the point of national dissolution and subjugation. The Polish assembly ceased to exist through conquest, but never agreed to rewrite the law.

The Articles of Confederation had reached a dead end and the country was strangling. So the leading lights of the country decided to break the existing law to make a new and better law.

Christians face the same struggle every time they open the Scriptures and see what God commanded, then released. Even God overrules himself from time to time.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   6:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Vicomte13 (#31)

" But do you understand what the words "the right to" mean? "

Uh, yes, of course I do. It is plain english.

I have "the right" to bear arms. I also have the responsibility to exercise it with common sense. The 2nd Amendment does not give me the right to be irresponsible, by shooting someone for fun, or shooting their dog or house, etc, etc.

Everyone has the right to Freedom of Speech, but not to yell FIRE in a crowded theater. Common Sense. Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

Vickie Weaver & her son were killed by Federal Agents because of a shotgun barrel that was less than 1/4 inch too short according to some damn regulation written by some GD bureaucrat.

That IS NOT the kind of nation our FF intended.

Use some damn common sense!

The fact remains that Congress does not follow / obey the constitution!

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   9:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Stoner (#34) (Edited)

Yet, there are not mountains of laws, regulations written to regulate speech. But there are trailer loads of laws & regulations concerning the 2nd amendment. DO YOU NOT SEE THE DIFFERENCE ??

There are library wings of laws and judicial decisions regarding free speech.

Every aspect of speech is regulated very tightly, in fact, and always has been.

"Fire in a crowded theater"...yes, that's the logic for limiting speech. Do you know when those words, specifically, were written, by whom, and the circumstance?

It was written by Holmes in the Supreme Court decision Schenk v United States, a 1919 case. The subject matter? In 1918 Congress passed the Sedition Act which made it a criminal offense against national security to protest the military draft for World War I.

Schenk's group were pacifists, who protested the draft by printing pamphlets saying that the draft was unconstitutional. Oliver Wendell Holmes penned the famous opinion that reminded people we cannot cry out "Fire!" in a crowded theater - and then equated any speech whatsoever that protested the constitutionality of the military draft during time of war as being the equivalent of crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater.

In other words, in time of war, Congress pass a law that criminalizes all speech, including constitutional arguments, that stands against any government decision that is related to the war.

"Freedom of Speech" is not abridged by criminalizing all criticism of the government during time of war, because to criticize any military decision of the government in time of war is to cry "Fire" in a crowded theater, and that is, of course, not protected by the freedom of speech.

So please DO come again at how speech isn't regulated.

Speech is the most regulated right of all. It is regulated to the point that we do not, in fact, have free speech in America at all. We just pretend to.

So tell me, does "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" mean that I can have a nuclear weapon at home, or have a nerve gas grenade? It's an arm, I want to keep it, and the Constitution says I have a right to keep and bear "arms" that "shall NOT BE INFRINGED".

So do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no?

By what you've said, the answer must be "Yes", because you acknowledge no limitation on the right to keep and bear arms.

And that's nuts.

Vicomte13  posted on  2016-03-17   10:14:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Vicomte13 (#35)

" do I have an absolute Constitutional right to keep nerve gas, biological weapons and a nuke at home in my living room. Yes or no? "

OK, the short answer is NO.

Lets try to keep this short. Many legal scholars have discussed the meaning of "arms". Virtually all agree that it is referring to common infantry arms, which would include rifles, pistols, shotguns, swords, bayonets, etc.

When you try to include " nukes, nerve gas ' etc, it then appears you are in favor of abolishing the 2nd Amendment, by using over reaching arguments. You obviously have no idea why the FF included it, do you?

You are just being silly, and have destroyed your credibility.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

There are no Carthaginian terrorists.

President Obama is the greatest hoax ever perpetrated on the American people. --Clint Eastwood

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within." -- General Douglas MacArthur

Stoner  posted on  2016-03-17   10:49:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: sneakypete (#1)

There's a difference between a Con con and an Article V convention, which is provided for under the Constitution, and whose work has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

TBP  posted on  2016-03-17   11:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Vicomte13 (#33)

Sometimes men write laws that are so constricting, so confining, that they cannot get out of the box they have made for themselves other than by disregarding the law they made and making a new one.

Yes, Virginia, the ends justify the means.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-17   11:27:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: sneakypete (#1)

They ought to take a provision from the Confederate Constitution that required legislation to deal with a single subject.

TBP  posted on  2016-03-17   11:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: nolu chan (#27)

Our constitution cannot be amended to 'take away' our in/unalienable rights (among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, -- according to the Declaration),--- without voiding the entire document.

There is no such thing as unalienable rights recognized by the Constitution.

The 14th specifically says that --, "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law".

The Constitution explicitly provides for people to be held answerable for capital crimes. ---, Following capital punishment, the subject is seperated from all rights, alienable and so-called unalienable. The right to life is taken away, and all other rights with it.

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

tpaine  posted on  2016-03-17   11:46:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: tpaine, nolu chan (#40)

Yep, after a due process conviction, our unalienable rights can be taken away. -- This fact does not refute my premise that rights cannot be amended away.

Do unborn babies have unalienable rights, especially the unalienable right to life? De facto an amendment is not required to take rights away from people. When its gone its gone. IDM how it gets gone.

потому что Бог хочет это тот путь

SOSO  posted on  2016-03-17   11:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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