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Title: WHAT’S THE CASE AGAINST CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Nov 28, 2015
Author: S. H. Blannenberry
Post Date: 2015-11-28 16:48:11 by tpaine
Keywords: None
Views: 11637
Comments: 39

www.gunsamerica.com

WHAT’S THE CASE AGAINST CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY?

Several states including Tennessee, Montana and Colorado, Texas are currently considering bills that would allow law-abiding citizens to carry firearms without a permit. Constitutional or permitless carry, as it’s known, is already the law of the land in Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming.

To the chagrin of gun-grabbers, none of those states with permitless concealed carry laws have descended into chaos. There is no widespread upheaval. There are no maundering hordes of armed miscreants. There appears to be no disruption to civilized society. Everything is pretty much as it was before the laws passed.

State Rep. Rick Womick (Photo: John A. Gillis/Gannett Tennessee) State Rep. Rick Womick (Photo: John A. Gillis/Gannett Tennessee)

Given this reality, the question is: what’s the case against Constitutional carry? In other words, why shouldn’t we allow law-abiding citizens to carry firearms without a license?

One can also argue that the Constitution protects one’s right to not just keep arms but to bear (carry) them as well. So why are we letting permits and the permitting process get in the way of this fundamental right?

Recently, Tennessee lawmaker Rep. Rick Womick introduced such a bill into the state House. In talking with The Tennessean, Womick defined the bill and made a pretty good case as why one should support it.

“That is what they call a constitutional carry bill,” explained Womick, a Republican, to The Tennessean. “What this bill would do is allow you to carry a gun without a permit either concealed or unconcealed. It’s straight Second Amendment.”

“The bottom line is if you want to carry a handgun or a shotgun to go hunting, you still have to follow the law, but you don’t have to have a permit to do so,” continued Womick. “It only applies to a citizen in good legal standing.”

Indeed. Yet many Democratic lawmakers and gun control supporters oppose it. On what grounds you ask?

“I believe every gun owner should require a permit,” said Darrell Bouldin, the second vice chair of the Rutherford County Democratic Party. “And I believe that we should have even stricture gun-control laws where anyone who applies should have a complete background check and be denied said permit if they have a criminal background or have a background of instability of some kind.”

Rtc2.gif “Rtc2” by Jeff Dege, Luieburger – commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F il e:Rtc.gif. Licensed under CC BY-SA 3.0 via Wikimedia Commons.

Likewise, Sara Mitchell of Rutherford County said, “We have an epidemic of gun violence in America, including shootings by children who gain access to their parents’ guns. Rather than relaxing gun laws, we should be trying to strengthen them and hold adults accountable for safeguarding their guns so that they are not accessible to children.”

Both Bouldin and Mitchell’s arguments are easy to shoot down. To start with Bouldin, his reasoning is we should have permits because, well, he simply believes we should. There are no facts or logic to back up his position, just his feelings on the issue. This is common with anti-gunners. They want to roll back the Second Amendment because they believe it’s the right thing to do or that it will save lives or that it will make us all safer, etc. Yet the facts just aren’t on their side.

By the numbers gun-loving Vermont had the lowest firearm murder rate per 100,000 residents in 2010. Vermont’s rate was .3 murders per 100,000 — again the lowest of all 50 states! Meanwhile, although it’s not a state, the District of Columbia which had a no-issue concealed carry standard in 2010 had by far the highest with 16.5 gun murders per 100,000 residents. That’s more than double the next closest state, which was Louisiana with 7.7 gun murders per 100,000 inhabitants.

While one should be cautious to make generalizations about crime data as there are many factors that influence crime rates, a rather obvious conclusion that one could discern from the numbers is that laws restricting concealed carry licensing have no measurable impact on the gun murder rate. If it they did, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming would all be at the top of the list. But they’re not. Respectively, per 100,000 residents, the rates were Alaska 2.7; Arizona 3.6; Arkansas 3.2; Vermont .3; and Wyoming 0.9. How does those numbers compare with the rest of the nation? To give you an idea the median rate was 2.7 murders per 100,000 residents.

Bouldin makes another critical blunder that is typical of a gun-grabber. That is, he fails to realize that criminals do not apply for concealed carry permits. Why would they? By their very nature they are outlaws, literally, meaning they don’t follow the law! Making the process more burdensome will only impact law-abiding applicants. Drug dealers and thugs will continue to pack heat without the permit.

Mitchell’s comments are equally absurd. There is no epidemic of gun violence in America. All crime, including violent crime, property crime and the gun-related homicide rate have uniformly declined over the past two decades. While one can argue that shootings are still too common in the U.S., the reality is that things are much better than they were in the 1980s and 1990s when gun laws were far more restrictive. Additionally, the majorities of shootings in this country happen in and around city centers (Chicago, D.C., Detroit) where there is widespread drug and gang activity. Were we to address the very real epidemic of drug/gang-related activity, then we’d see a serious decline in the number of gun murders. But instead of acknowledging this aspect of the crime equation, Mitchell is content with blaming guns and gun ownership.

Crime Rates in the U.S. It was sourced form wikipedia, but for more extensive numbers check out the FBI stats. Crime Rates in the U.S. It was sourced form wikipedia, but for more extensive numbers check out the FBI stats.

Mitchell also builds a straw man. Instead of discussing the topic at hand, permitless carry, she diverts attention to the disparate issue of children and firearms. On this subject, there is a lot to discuss, such as when to teach children about gun safety, optimal ways to secure firearms in a home, the decline in accidental shooting deaths over the past several years, among others. But let’s save this for another day and stick to the main question: the argument against constitutional carry.

From what I garner, there is only one semi-persuasive case to make against constitutional carry. And it has to do with mandatory training that it requires to obtain a permit. Some folks, including many gun owners, believe that mandatory training of some sort (range time and classroom time) and of some length (upwards of four hours but no more than 16 hours, which is Illinois’s requirement) is beneficial for the applicant and serves the interest of public safety. Someone who has had training, the theory goes, is more responsible, more safe, and more aware than someone who has not been trained.

It’s a hard argument to refute in any empirical way because there are no — at least to my knowledge — studies that examine the impact that gun safety training has had on a population. The only defense against mandatory training is that it’s an infringement on the Second Amendment. In a literal sense that may be true, but in reality no court or judge is going to rule that training is tantamount to an infringement. Instead, the court or judge would argue that it’s a “reasonable limitation,” much in the same way that one may need to obtain a permit before assembling in a public park. Constitutional purists will be pissed off by this, and rightfully so, but it is the world in which we live in.

Perhaps it’s just my Libertarian perspective but I think the dilemma over training ultimately comes down to the individual. Whether or not there is a training requirement in place, responsible individuals will still act responsibly. They will seek out training and instruction on their own. They will go the extra mile to ensure that they are safe when carrying in public. They will take time to learn local laws. They will do things the right way because that’s who they are. And, on the other side of the coin, knuckleheads will continue to be knuckleheads regardless of whether they receive training. Ironically then, I believe mandatory training is only effective on the folks who ultimately don’t need it.

So, what is a gun owner to do? I support Constitutional carry. Pending further developments, I see no concrete reason why one should oppose it. At the same time, if residents of a state are comfortable with a permissive ‘shall-issue’ standard that requires training, then I guess I support that standard as well. It may not be ideal or what the founders intended, but it seems to be a reasonable compromise in an age where gun ownership is constantly under fire.

Anyways, that’s where I come out on this. What are your thoughts?

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

#5. To: tpaine (#0)

I recommend anyone reading this article verify their state law before carrying where and how he says it is legal. He has stated concealed carry is legal in Arkansas without a permit. He is wrong.

Several states including Tennessee, Montana and Colorado, Texas are currently considering bills that would allow law-abiding citizens to carry firearms without a permit. Constitutional or permitless carry, as it’s known, is already the law of the land in Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Vermont and Wyoming.

The author's correct name is S.L. Blannelberry. The article from February 20, 2015 may be found at: https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/whats-case-constitutional-carry/.

It is currently lawful to open carry, except where prohibited, or for unlawful purposes.

Concealed carry remains subject to a concealed carry permit.

http://www.shoothouseusa.com/uploads/AG_Opinion_on_Open_Carry_20150828.pdf

Arkansas AG Opinion Opinion 2015-064 of 28 August 2015 re Open Carry

So, what does the foregoing actually mean for Arkansas law enforcement and for the people of Arkansas? While I do not encourage open carry, so long as a person has no intent “to attempt to unlawfully employ the handgun, knife, or club as a weapon against a person,” he or she may possess a handgun without violating § 5-73-120(a).[19] That means in general merely possessing a handgun on your person or in your occupied vehicle does not violate § 5-73-120(a) and may be done if it does not violate other laws or regulations. However, there are four critical caveats that should certainly be taken into consideration. Any person who carries a handgun should be aware that a law enforcement officer might lawfully inquire into that person’s purpose. Determining culpability or potential culpability under § 5-73-120(a) is initially a matter for law enforcement following guidelines that routinely apply when investigating a misdemeanor involving the danger of forcible injury to persons. A law enforcement officer may stop and detain any person reasonably suspected of violating section § 5-73-120(a) if necessary to identify the person or determine the lawfulness of his or her conduct.[20] Whether an officer has reasonable suspicion will depend upon a number of circumstance-specific factors. Some of these factors are recounted in Ark. Code Ann. § 16-81-203 (Repl. 2005), including:

(1) the demeanor of the suspect; (2) the gait and manner of the suspect; (3) any information received from third persons; and (4) the suspect’s proximity to known criminal conduct.

While merely possessing a loaded handgun completely on its own is not enough for reasonable suspicion of a violation of § 5-73-120(a), possessing a loaded handgun in combination with just one additional factor may, depending on the circumstances, be enough to create reasonable suspicion of intent to unlawfully employ the handgun as a weapon (and thus reasonable suspicion of a violation of § 5-73-120(a)).

Other statutes prohibit possession of a handgun in certain circumstances regardless of whether a person has the intent to use the handgun unlawfully. Those statutes still have full force and effect. For example, § 5-73-122(a)(1) prohibits (with exceptions not relevant here) possessing a deadly weapon “in any publicly owned building or facility or on the State Capitol grounds.” So a person could not lawfully bring a handgun with him or her to the State Capitol grounds even though doing so wouldn’t necessarily violate § 5-73-120(a). I provide a non-exhaustive list of those statutes in the Addendum to this opinion. I have summarized the principal statutes that make it unlawful to carry a firearm, notwithstanding the absence of a purpose prohibited by section § 5-73-120(a).

3. A private property owner or occupant is still entitled to keep handguns (and other firearms) and persons with handguns (and other firearms) off his, her, or its property. If a person enters or stays on private property against the owner’s or occupant’s stated desire that he or she not enter or that he or she leaves, that person may be guilty of criminal trespass. See Ark. Code Ann. § 5-39-203.

Nothing in Act 746, § 5-73-120(a), or this opinion is intended to suggest a person may carry a concealed handgun in public without a properly issued concealed-carry license.[21] In fact, except during a journey, it is likely that the Arkansas Supreme Court would allow the presumption that a person who has flouted the concealed-carry regime in Arkansas law by possessing a concealed handgun without a concealed-carry license has the requisite unlawful intent for a violation of § 5-73-120(a).

Point 4 requires additional explanation. In my opinion, a person may not lawfully carry a concealed handgun in public without a properly issued concealed-carry license. I believe this necessarily follows from the concealed-carry licensing scheme that predates Act 746 and that, in my opinion, was unaffected by Act 746.[22] The licensing requirement is recognized in the “concealed handgun” exception under § 5-73-120:

It is permissible to carry a handgun under this section if at the time of the act of carrying a weapon....[t]he person is in possession of a concealed handgun and has a valid license to carry a concealed handgun under § 5-73-301 et seq., or recognized under § 5-73-321 and is not in a prohibited place as defined by § 5-73-306.[23]

Among the many requirements for obtaining a concealed-carry license is a statement under oath that the applicant “desires a legal means to carry a concealed handgun to defend himself or herself.”[24] In my opinion, these licensing requirements were unaffected by Act 746. To conclude otherwise would essentially nullify the concealed-carry law’s oath requirement, contrary to established rules of statutory construction.[25]

From Arkansas Code Annotated:

http://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2012/title-5/subtitle-6/chapter-73/subchapter-3/section-5-73-306

2012 Arkansas Code
Title 5 - Criminal Offenses
Subtitle 6 - Offenses Against Public Health, Safety, Or Welfare
Chapter 73 - Weapons
Subchapter 3 - -- Concealed Handguns
§ 5-73-306 - Prohibited places.

Universal Citation: AR Code § 5-73-306 (2012)

NO LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN ISSUED PURSUANT TO THIS SUBCHAPTER AUTHORIZES ANY PERSON TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN INTO:

(1) Any police station, sheriff's station, or Department of Arkansas State Police station;

(2) Any Arkansas Highway Police Division of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department facility;

(3) (A) Any building of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department or onto grounds adjacent to any building of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department.

(B) However, subdivision (3)(A) of this section does not apply to a rest area or weigh station of the Arkansas State Highway and Transportation Department;

(4) Any detention facility, prison, or jail;

(5) Any courthouse;

(6) (A) Any courtroom.

(B) However, nothing in this subchapter precludes a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon into his or her courtroom;

(7) Any polling place; ACT 1175 of 2015 removes polling places

(8) Any meeting place of the governing body of any governmental entity;

(9) Any meeting of the General Assembly or a committee of the General Assembly;

(10) Any state office;

(11) Any athletic event not related to firearms;

(12) Any portion of an establishment, except a restaurant as defined in § 3-5- 1202, licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises;

(13) Any portion of an establishment, except a restaurant as defined in § 3-5- 1202, where beer or light wine is consumed on the premises;

(14)(A) Any school, college, community college, or university campus building or event, unless for the purpose of participating in an authorized firearms-related activity; Mar. 1, 2013 Arkansas Governor Mike Beebe, signed H.B. 1479 in to law.

(B) However, subdivision (14)(A) of this section does not apply to a kindergarten through grade twelve (K-12) private school operated by a church or other place of worship that:

(i) Is located on the developed property of the kindergarten through grade twelve (K-12) private school;

(ii) Allows the licensee to carry a concealed handgun into the church or other place of worship under this section; and

(iii) Allows the licensee to possess a concealed handgun on the developed property of the kindergarten through grade twelve (K-12) private school under § 5- 73-119(e);

(15) Inside the passenger terminal of any airport, except that no person is prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the passenger terminal if the firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking the firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft;

(16)(A) Any church or other place of worship; Feb. 11, 2013, Arkansas Governor Mike Beebe, signed the Church Protection Act into law.

(B) However, this subchapter does not preclude a church or other place of worship from determining who may carry a concealed handgun into the church or other place of worship;

(17) Any place where the carrying of a firearm is prohibited by federal law;

(18) Any place where a parade or demonstration requiring a permit is being held, and the licensee is a participant in the parade or demonstration; or

(19) (A) (i) Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10') that "carrying a handgun is prohibited".

(ii) (a) If the place does not have a roadway entrance, there shall be a written notice placed anywhere upon the premises of the place. (b) In addition to the requirement of subdivision (19)(A)(ii)(a) of this section, there shall be at least one (1) written notice posted within every three (3) acres of a place with no roadway entrance.

(iii) A written notice as described in subdivision (19)(A)(i) of this section is not required for a private home.

(iv) Any licensee entering a private home shall notify the occupant that the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun.

(B) Subdivision (19)(A) of this section does not apply if the physical location is a public university, public college, or community college, as defined in § 5-73-322,

nolu chan  posted on  2015-11-28   19:06:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: nolu chan, misterwhite, Y'ALL (#5)

Both Open and Concealed Carry are the Law of the Land.

(Although, even here at LF, many will argue that fact)

The author's correct name is S.L. Blannelberry. The article from February 20, 2015 may be found at: https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/whats-case-constitutional- carry/.

True to form, nolu shows up to nitpick, and to argue against our Constitution..

It is currently lawful to open carry, except where prohibited, or for unlawful purposes.

We have an inalienable right to bear arms, according to the 2nd Amendment, part of our 'supreme law of the land'..

Concealed carry remains subject to a concealed carry permit.

That's your unconstitutional opinion, backed up by over two hundred years of unconstitutional opinions spewed forth by traitorous politicians, judges, and lawyers.. -- Congrats, -- you're in the company of assholes.

tpaine  posted on  2015-11-28   21:53:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: tpaine (#8)

Both Open and Concealed Carry are the Law of the Land.

Getting arrested and jailed for concealed carry without a permit is the law of Arkansas.

The jurisdiction of the tpaine Court of the Imagination is not recognized.

nolu chan  posted on  2015-11-29   1:14:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: nolu chan (#10)

Concealed carry remains subject to a concealed carry permit.

That's your unconstitutional opinion, backed up by over two hundred years of unconstitutional opinions spewed forth by traitorous politicians, judges, and lawyers.. -- Congrats, -- you're in the company of assholes.

Getting arrested and jailed for concealed carry without a permit is the law of Arkansas.

And that makes you happy as hell, doesn't it..

The jurisdiction of the tpaine Court of the Imagination is not recognized.

No imagination necessary, on my part, to recognize you as a gun grabber nolu..

tpaine  posted on  2015-11-29   1:34:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: tpaine (#11) (Edited)

The real issue with this is the dingbats get to carry just like the reasonable people. It is like going back to the 1870, 1880's when that cowboy culture existed. A man can be a man without a gun in his hand. When I was young I had a gun in my golf bag, considering where I lived there might be the odd snake or crow to deal with, but reality is there was more fantasy to it than necessity, and that is what this is, fantasy.

Not carrying a gun is not an infringement of your rights, having a gun at home in your closet is just as much exercising your rights as strutting your stuff about town with a big iron on yoru hip, in fact doing that is compensating for something lacking in your life

paraclete  posted on  2015-11-29   1:49:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: paraclete (#12)

considering where I lived there might be the odd snake or crow to deal with, but reality is there was more fantasy to it than necessity, and that is what this is, fantasy.

No venomous snakes and mountain lions around your parts?

In Texas just going fishing can be an adventure. Come across a rattle snake no problem. They rattle, you move on. Defensive creatures unless you step on them.

Come across a Cottonmouth, oh boy. Shoot and ask questions later. That snake will chase you, find you and kill you. Very territorial.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-29   4:16:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: redleghunter (#14)

No venomous snakes and mountain lions around your parts?

oh we have some marvellous venomous snakes but none give you a warning, there is the death adder who hides under a rock, or leaf, waiting for you and the king brown who bites you just for fun and then there is the taipan, the spiders are to die for too, and we do have some legendary panthers roaming these mountains but a six foot six buck kangaroo can be just as dangerous. My dad would never leave a snake unkilled even if was minding its own business

paraclete  posted on  2015-11-29   7:37:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: paraclete (#15)

Ah the mighty Down Under:)

Well yes you have your hands full.

redleghunter  posted on  2015-11-29   16:39:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: redleghunter (#26)

Ah the mighty Down Under:)

Well yes you have your hands full.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.

Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.

Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent. -

See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=17847#sthash.60TKi6rT.dpuf

Yeah I would say they do have their hands full...

CZ82  posted on  2015-11-30   18:39:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: CZ82 (#30) (Edited)

In 2006,

seeing as you are incapable of using up to date statistics

Between 2013 and 2014 the number of recorded victims decreased for the majority of offence categories. Robbery had the largest proportional decrease of 16% (1,825 victims). Homicide, kidnapping/abduction, robbery, unlawful entry with intent and motor vehicle theft victims all fell to five year lows.

the way I read it something must be working and it doesn't need guns in the hands of the population to make it happen. What it is is you have to live in a reasonable society that believes in the rule of law and fair play. you have the impression we don't own guns, that is incorrect, we just don't possess the more dangerous military assault weapons and you have to have a good reason for owning a weapon not just a whim, but we also have regulations regarding other weapons and that may do as much to explain these statistics

paraclete  posted on  2015-12-01   0:19:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 31.

#32. To: paraclete (#31)

you are incapable

So why didn't you post the rest of those Wiki stats that showed Sexual assaults and Blackmail extortion was up???

A nice graph from say 1980-Present with links would be nice if you want people to believe things have gotten better since you bought back guns, kinda like this one. Which shows US rates going down quite steadily as the amount of firearms has gone up quite steadily...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0778268.html

Or maybe the crime rate there is dropping because the population is finally becoming civilized. Australia used to be the dumping grounds for other countries undesirables wasn't it??

CZ82  posted on  2015-12-01 07:09:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

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