United States News
See other United States News Articles
Title: Pentagon backs Turkey’s version of events, blames ‘incursion’ of Russian jet
Source:
Washington Times
URL Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news ... s-version-accuses-russian-fig/
Published: Nov 24, 2015
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2015-11-24 11:42:22 by cranky
Keywords: None
Views: 5999
Comments: 52
The U.S. military on Tuesday labeled as an “incursion” the Russian fighter jet that was shot down by Turkish aircraft over the Syria-Turkey border. Army Col. Steve Warren, the top military spokesman in Baghdad, confirmed the Turk’s version of events in saying they repeatedly warned the two Russian SU-24 pilots to back off. Col. Warren used the word “incursion” to describe the Russian flight, but also said the command was studying radars and other data, such as radio chatter, to make a definite conclusion. “The incident happened at the border,” Col. Warren said. “These things are not as clean as they are in the movies.” Russian President Vladimir Putin in recent years has deployed his fighters and bombers close to the air space of NATO countries, such as Turkey and the U.S., as a way to try to rattle the allies. This is the first time he has paid a price in having one of his jets shot down and perhaps the pilots killed. Mr. Putin is backing Syrian President Bashar Assad, which is opposed by the Turkish government. Ankara is helping rebels opposed to the regime. The U.S. sent F-15C air superiority jets to Turkey to help it patrol and defend its air space. Col. Warren said no F-15 was in the vicinity. This “purely took place between the Russians and the Turks,” he said. Col. Warren has made no secret of the U.S.’s displeasure with Russian bombing campaign in Syria. They assert Mr. Putin is mostly bombing moderate rebel groups opposed to Mr. Assad and devoting little time to the Islamic State terror army.
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-12) not displayed.
.
.
.
#13. To: Vicomte13 (#2)
No but they are attacking those attacking Assad. Of which we have the Turkey supported Turkmen rebels. A complex mess there. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6
I have no doubt that the information Col Warren has came from one of "Our AWACS" in the region, maybe even from 2...
Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
The Turks and Russians are just having another dick measuring contest, the winner gets a weekend with Slick Willie on slut island...
Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
If you look at the map you would see that there is a finger of Turkey that extends far into Syria. The Russians would be fully aware of the potential to cross a border even though Syria surrounds the area. It would appear Turkey is trigger happy wanting to protect their relatives over the border or perhaps they are protecting more? Any invasion of air space would be momentary and unintentional in a mountainous area and Russia should have avoided the area to avoid confrontation. It is likely the Turks have taken the wrong side in this conflict
Don't you if you all watch the BBC show Top Gear. My boys took a liking to it a few years back. I don't think the 'boys' from Top Gear will be re-enacting their Three Wise Men tour anytime soon: Retrace the Three Wise Men journey with second-hand two-seater convertibles for £3,500 Cheap Car Challenge: The presenters are challenged to re- enact the journey of the Three Wise Men by travelling from northern Iraq to a stable in Bethlehem, using second-hand two-seater convertibles bought for £3,500. As Israel will not allow cars registered in its surrounding neighbours to enter its borders, they must buy cars from Georgia before flying to their destination in an Ilyushin Il-76TD cargo plane. Jeremy buys a Mazda MX-5, Richard a Fiat Barchetta and James a BMW Z3. As in previous challenges, a spare car is provided to any presenter whose car breaks down. For this challenge, that car is an Opel Astra convertible - a car loathed by all three presenters. After landing at Arbil International Airport in Iraqi Kurdistan, the three decide that it is too dangerous to drive directly to Bethlehem as it would involve travelling through the stronghold of Mosul. Instead, Jeremy proposes a circuitous route that involves travelling east and crossing into Iran and then doubling back into Turkey and down into Syria to avoid the dangers of Iraq. However, once they reach the Iranian border, they find that for "political reasons", BBC staff are not permitted to cross into Iran. They manage to find a route back across Iraq to the Turkish border that bypasses Mosul. Once inside Turkey, they discover that they have a bigger problem: a Kurdish insurgency is attempting to claim the southern provinces of Turkey and that the region has been declared a war zone, with the Foreign Ministry issuing a document that states all non-essential travel should be avoided. The presenters are given four hours to travel the 363 kilometres (226 mi) to ^anl1urfa, a safe city, before nightfall, a journey that will force them to travel through the unsafe region of ^1rnak. Jeremy experiences trouble with his Mazda, but all three are able to make it to the hotel. To punish Richard for being smug about his car's reliability, Jeremy and James disconnect the standard stereo and install a secret, second stereo in the Fiat and a Genesis CD (specifically, Live over Europe 2007) — a band Hammond is known to hate — which he cannot turn off. They finally turn south and enter Syria, their progress halted by the Z3's security system, which refuses to start the car. Once inside, they discover that Top Gear is enormously popular in Syria, which they are less than enthusiastic about because Israel will not allow them into the country if they have been in Syria, and any word of their presence in the country will spread like wildfire and tip the Israelis off before they can get to the border. Jeremy proposes that they "sneak through" the country by modifying their cars for desert travel. Richard models his Fiat on a Bedouin tent, while James takes inspiration from the Afrika Korps and models his BMW on a desert army unit. Meanwhile, Jeremy paints his car in bright colours to resemble the story of Joseph and his coat of many colours, making it Jeremy and his Car of Many Colours. He also installs the "Axle of Evil" to make his Mazda a six-wheeled vehicle, though this quickly proves to hinder him more than it helps. While travelling through the desert, Richard's radiator very nearly falls out and Jeremy is bitten by an unidentified insect that causes his arm to swell up. Of more concern is an accident whilst attempting to drag a car out of a sand trap; James is knocked over by the strap used to haul the car out and receives a head wound when he hits his head on a rock. He is taken to a nearby hospital while Jeremy and Richard carry on. They soon find a road near Palmyra and change their tactics: rather than disguising their cars, they disguise themselves, meeting May at the hospital dressed in burqas and attempt to drive to Damascus incognito. Their efforts are in vain, because word has spread that they are in the country and there is a welcoming party at their hotel. "Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near"---Isaiah 55:6
Yep. And Turkey is not at war with Russia. When jets stray into your territory, you warn them off and send diplomatic protests to the capital of the country that violated your airspace. You don't SHOOT THEM DOWN and kill their crews. What Turkey did was insane. What Turkey did was set up by the United States. God help us all.
It's SOP to give warnings to any aircraft on a heading toward a restricted air space like a national border or an airbase. If they don't get a reply and a change in heading, they keep repeating the warning. In this case, they claim they didn't know the identity of the plane so it would be along the lines of "Unknown aircraft approaching Turkish border at ______, you are entering restricted airspace. Alter your course immediately. Acknowledge...".
Naturally, turkeys want to protect their relatives this time of year. "Any invasion of air space would be momentary and unintentional in a mountainous area and Russia should have avoided the area to avoid confrontation." The pilots were warned numerous times.
In what language? This assumes they were even monitoring turkish transmissions. If you look at the map of their flight path you can clearly see they crossed turkish territory but the turks were quick on the trigger
This is a Turkish map. Russians claim, not only they did not stray there, but that the bombing mission was west from this finger and that Turkish planes entered Syrian space to fire heat seeking missile at unarmed bomber. Looks like August 1914.
NATO denounces Russian incursion into Turkish air space Reuters By Ayla Jean Yackley and Humeyra Pamuk October 5, 2015 12:28 PM ISTANBUL (Reuters) - The United States and its NATO allies denounced Russia on Monday for violating Turkish air space along the frontier with Syria, and Ankara threatened to respond if provoked again, raising the prospect of direct confrontation between the Cold War enemies. NATO held an emergency meeting of ambassadors of its 28 member states to respond to what Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg called "unacceptable violations of Turkish air space" after Turkey said a Russian jet had crossed its frontier. NATO members "strongly protest" and "condemn" incursions into Turkish and NATO territory, the alliance said. "Allies also note the extreme danger of such irresponsible behavior. They call on the Russian Federation to cease and desist, and immediately explain these violations," it said in a statement released after the meeting in Brussels. Moscow's unexpected move last week to launch air strikes in Syria has brought the greatest threat of an accidental clash between Russian and Western forces since the Cold War. Russian war planes and those of the United States and its allies are now flying combat missions over the same country for the first time since World War Two, with Moscow repeatedly targeting insurgents trained and armed by Washington's allies. Turkey, a NATO member with the alliance's second biggest army, scrambled two F-16 jets on Saturday after a Russian aircraft crossed into its airspace near its southern province of Hatay, the Turkish foreign ministry said. In a second incident, the Turkish military said a MiG-29 fighter jet - an aircraft used both by Russia and Syria's own air force - had harassed two of its F-16s by locking its radar on to them on Sunday as they patrolled the border. Turkey summoned Moscow's ambassador to protest against the violation and said Russia would be held "responsible for any undesired incident that may occur" if it were repeated. Foreign Minister Feridun Sinirlioglu spoke with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov, as well as key NATO partners. By Monday afternoon, Russia had not given its own public account of the incidents. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov confirmed that the Russian ambassador had been summoned and said "some facts were mentioned there which are to be checked", but gave no further details. RULES OF ENGAGEMENT Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said he had been told by Russia that the violation was a "mistake" that would not happen again. "Turkey's rules of engagement apply to all planes, be they Syrian, Russian or from elsewhere ... Necessary steps would be taken against whoever violates Turkey’s borders, even if it’s a bird," he said on HaberTurk TV. "For Russia, which long opposed foreign intervention in Syria and blocked UN Security Council resolutions, to be actively involved in Syria is both a contradiction and a move that has escalated the crisis." A senior U.S. defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Washington doubted the incursions were an accident. "We’re deeply concerned about it and consider it something that just contributes to our overall sense that there’s real strategic and tactical problems with the way Russia is conducting itself in Syria right now." The United States and its allies are waging their own air campaign against Islamic State fighters in Syria, while demanding that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad step down and supporting other insurgents fighting against him. Russia says it is targeting Islamic State, but the anti-Assad coalition including Washington, European powers, Turkey and most Arab states, say Moscow has mainly targeted other insurgents and hit few Islamic State targets. The potential confrontation comes at a time when relations between Russia and the West are at their worst since the Cold War, with the United States and European Union having imposed financial sanctions on Moscow over its intervention in Ukraine. Over the past year, NATO has repeatedly accused Moscow of sending planes to violate the air space of the alliance's member countries in Europe. Speaking during a trip to Spain, U.S. Defense Secretary Ashton Carter compared Moscow's effort to bolster Assad to tethering itself to a sinking ship. "By taking military action in Syria against moderate groups targets, Russia has escalated the civil war," Carter said in a speech in Madrid. More than 40 Syrian insurgent groups, including some of the most powerful groups fighting against Assad and armed by Arab states, called on regional states to forge an alliance against Russia and Assad's other big foreign backer, Iran. Regional cooperation was needed to counter "the Russian-Iranian alliance occupying Syria", they said. "Civilians have been directly targeted in a manner that reminds us of the scorched earth policy pursued by Russia in its past wars." ENEMIES LIST By infuriating Ankara, Russian President Vladimir Putin risks adding another name his costly and expanding enemies list: fast-growing Turkey is a big buyer of Russian gas and Moscow has announced ambitious plans to build pipelines across it to reach markets further west. Turkey is one of Assad's fiercest foes in the region, has by far the biggest army on the border with Syria and has taken in the largest number of refugees. President Tayyip Erdogan said Russia's defense of Assad was a "grave mistake". "Assad has committed state terrorism, and unfortunately you find Russia and Iran defending (him)," Erdogan was quoted by the Hurriyet newspaper as telling a crowd of supporters in Strasbourg, France, late on Sunday. "Those countries that collaborate with the regime will account for it in history," he said. Britain's Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said on Twitter: "(The) Russian incursion into Turkish air space raises stakes in what is already a high risk situation." (Additional reporting by Maria Tsvetkova in Moscow, Phil Stewart in Madrid, Robin Emmott in Brussels; Writing by Nick Tattersall; Editing by Peter Graff and Giles Elgood) Look what happened just a little over a month ago, the Russians can't say they weren't warned... You know I'm kinda surprised nobody else picked this up and posted it, I wonder why??? Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
Twice, according to the flight plan. And you know they didn't reduce speed when over Turkey? And you believe that map? And you think the Russians should get a 2-minute "mulligan"?
Kind of pointless to communicate in Swahili, yes? "This assumes they were even monitoring turkish transmissions." Wouldn't that be a #1 priority for the pilot?
Bits and pieces here and there that's about it... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
This is a very good analogy. Where does China stand? (Rhetorical question)
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
reports suggest the Russians did not respond to turkish transmissions, so no, the pilot's priority was probably the target or clearing the area, it was shot down over Syria
why would I watch the performance of three clowns making a nuiance of themselves?
Looks like a family squabble since most of the monarchs of Europe at that time were all related to one another in some way... Vegetarians eat vegetables. Beware of humanitarians!
....but Walmart would not.
Exactly ;if they were targeting IS ,as they say their mission is to do ,they would not have been anywhere near that area . Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
A complex mess there Further complicated in that Turkish sovereignty over Hataya (Alexandretta) is historically disputed by Syria. When the French controlled it ,it was temporarily a republic . They had a controversial referendum .The Turks sent thousands of Turks into the territory ,and their vote swung the referendum in favor of Turkish annexation . 'Official Syrian maps continued to include Hatay as part of the country’s national territory. But at the same time, public discussion of the matter was discouraged, and Syrian governments rarely raised the issue openly for fear of provoking new conflicts with Turkey. The Hatay issue therefore remained largely unknown to the international community, but it didn’t go away.' As the Syrian crisis evolved, the Hatay issue resurfaced in more ways than one. Its geographical location made it a convenient base for opposition forces and a hub for smuggling weapons and rebel soldiers into Syria. Its demographic composition, mirroring Syria’s ethnic and religious divisions, produced fears of serious spillover effects on the Turkish side of the border. Hatay was also the site of the May 2013 Reyhanl1 bombings, a terrorist incident in which two car bombs killed more than 50 people for which Turkey blamed the Syrian regime. During the first eighteen months of the Syrian crisis, it was clear that Syria did not wish to raise the issue of Hatay and add to the already-tense Syrian-Turkish relations. For instance, as Syrian refugees poured into Hatay in summer 2011, Syrian media reported that these refugees were in Turkey and not in “occupied Syrian territory.” And when Syria accidentally downed a Turkish jet off the Syrian coast in June 2012, a very clear message was sent to Turkey via Syrian television: the map that displayed the route of the plane was strikingly different from other Syrian maps—it had the border separating Hatay from Syria clearly marked. New schoolbooks printed by Syrian opposition groups based in Turkey have removed Hatay from maps of Syria (although Syrian rebels forgot to do the same on the map used at a September 2013 press conference in Istanbul, causing a good deal of commotion). In late 2012, there were also allegations that opposition forces had secretly agreed that a post-Assad Syria would recognize Turkish sovereignty over Hatay. At around that time, Syria’s media silence on Hatay ended. The progovernment press and television began to air reports on “popular voices” demanding the return of Hatay to Syria and to broadcast documentaries on the history of the area that demonstrated the “Syrianness” of its inhabitants. http://carnegieendowment.org/syriaincrisis/?fa=54340 Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Russia did not declare ISIS as their sole target. They are aiding the Assad regime against foreign terrorists and domestic rebels. No one likes to mention how Turkey is the conduit for all these foreign jihadis from all over the world. Turkey is a de facto ISIS ally. There is no denying it.
Thanks your correction is much closer to what the Russian Navigator said. I thank God Putin is a man and not a child like Obama, maybe, we can avoid war. Eli, Eli, nai erchomai Kurios Iesous.
What Turkey did was set up by the United States. God help us all. I agree, obamit is going to start a war. Even Ryan would be better than obamit and biden. Eli, Eli, nai erchomai Kurios Iesous.
Simple arithmetic. I divided distance by speed.
a storm in a tea cup within a storm in a tea cup. As the number of players increases we can expect more incidents, more provacations. It is time for the US to abondon it's aspirations of regime change and focus on the real game, the removal of a dangerous terrorist organisation. The scenario that played out in Afghanistan will not play out here without a large scale deployment of troops and that comes four years too late. This is what we get for backing GWB adventurism in a word; chaos
I agree.
Eli, Eli, nai erchomai Kurios Iesous.
Why is DC not mentioning al-Qaeda in Syria aka al-Nusra?
As it becomes more obvious that Saddam's old spymasters who run ISIS have compromised FSA leadership at the top levels, they seem to be downplaying al-Nusra's well-established links to al-Qaeda. If FSA becomes too obvious a front for ISIS, al-Nusra will become the new "democratic freedom fighters" who will save Iraq from Assad. In truth, ISIS is the far more savage of the two groups. I still don't see how they sell anyone on the idea that al-Nusra is better than Assad. But at least they aren't a pack of foreign jihadis like ISIS is.
Could you care for the comparison?
As far as we know, ISIS is more cruel than Taliban or al-Qaeda or al-Nusra. I'm surprised you want to debate it, given the prominent executions staged by ISIS and the evidence of their recent chemical weapons attack.
Well, you posted claim so I was curious how do you do the comparison. Not that I have an exact opinion one way or another. Al Nusra the Moderate: The day I met the organ eating cannibal rebel Abu Sakkar's fearsome followers For “insulting god” al-Nusra “stoned to death” a man in the countryside of Idlib
I don't see where you get the idea I suggested that al-Nusra is moderate. That role has been assigned to the ISIS front, the FSA. Our allies. I have mentioned that if the ISIS/FSA connection becomes too obvious, I expect to see al-Nusra suddenly reborn as the new "moderate" democratic opposition in Syria and therefore a group the West could back to depose Assad.
From what I read, Al Nusra/Al Qaeda and ISIS are opposed to one another. The first think that the second are ruining the long term objective of Jihad by making it too open and abrupt. The first are more moderate in sense of strategy, they want to go slowly and to build the foundations first. But, I am not an expert. Still the comparisons may be interesting.
It's a little disconcerting when even the Pentagon might be lying to the American people.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
You have to stay on message and not confuse the issue. Daesh is the target, we don't hear much about what the al-nasra front is doing so no milage in talking them up, in any case they may merge with Daesh again at any time. DC needs to forget about fostering opposition in Syria and focus on destroying terrorism. Terrorists are not freedom fighters. The opposition in Syria has not succeeded in dislodging the regime so time for different tactics
At what point did you think they have been telling you the truth? Truth is a very subjective thing. The only thing we know for sure about Syria is that killing is bad, anything else is just opinion
One can only hope the military leaders might have enough character, officers and gentlemen type, to at least not lie to the American people. Yeah, I'm not really that naive. These folks are serving under the Obama Administration.
Psalm 37 PRAY FOR PARIS
yes undoubted there is a great deal of expedience thus not much progress
Russia is not attacking Turkey.
#14. To: redleghunter (#11)
#15. To: redleghunter (#12)
#16. To: misterwhite (#1)
So they confirmed that Turkey said the Russian plane was invading their airspace.
#17. To: CZ82, TooConservative, tomder55, liberator (#14)
#18. To: BobCeleste (#9)
#19. To: BobCeleste (#9)
How do you warn off, ten times in two minutes?
#20. To: paraclete (#16)
"It would appear Turkey is trigger happy wanting to protect their relatives"
#21. To: misterwhite (#20)
The pilots were warned numerous times.
#22. To: paraclete (#21)
If you look at the map of their flight path you can clearly see they crossed turkish territory but the turks were quick on the trigger
#23. To: All (#0)
#24. To: BobCeleste (#9)
"shows the Russian jet spending no more than 2 minutes over Turkey at 450MPH."
#25. To: paraclete (#21)
"In what language?"
#26. To: redleghunter (#17)
Don't you if you all watch the BBC show Top Gear.
#27. To: All (#22)
Looks like August 1914.
#28. To: A Pole (#27)
#29. To: misterwhite (#25)
Wouldn't that be a #1 priority for the pilot?
#30. To: CZ82 (#26)
Don't you if you all watch the BBC show Top Gear.
#31. To: A Pole (#27)
Looks like August 1914.
#32. To: nativist nationalist (#7)
...we ought to avoid a clash and show our opposition to Beijing’s excesses, if need be, by imposing tariffs on all goods made in China. China’s oligarchs will understand that message.
#33. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, CZ82, TooConservative (#12)
What we will probably find out is the Russians were targeting Turkmen rebels inside the Syrian border or right at the Syrian border and got caught in Turkish airspace. Then we will find out the Turks fired back knowing that was the intent of the Russians.
#34. To: redleghunter, Vicomte13, CZ82, TooConservative, Paraclete, all (#13)
(Edited)
No but they are attacking those attacking Assad. Of which we have the Turkey supported Turkmen rebels.
#35. To: tomder55, Pericles (#33)
Exactly ;if they were targeting IS ,as they say their mission is to do ,they would not have been anywhere near that area .
#36. To: A Pole (#10)
A little less than 3 miles will be covered in about about 20 seconds at this speed.
#37. To: Vicomte13 (#18)
What Turkey did was insane.
#38. To: BobCeleste (#36)
Thanks your correction is much closer to what the Russian Navigator said.
#39. To: BobCeleste (#37)
#40. To: paraclete (#39)
#41. To: tomder55, TooConservative (#35)
#42. To: Pericles, tomder55 (#41)
Why is DC not mentioning al-Qaeda in Syria aka al-Nusra?
#43. To: TooConservative (#42)
(Edited)
In truth, ISIS is the far more savage of the two groups.
#44. To: A Pole (#43)
#45. To: TooConservative (#44)
I'm surprised you want to debate it
#46. To: A Pole (#45)
Al Nusra the Moderate:
#47. To: TooConservative (#46)
I have mentioned that if the ISIS/FSA connection becomes too obvious, I expect to see al-Nusra suddenly reborn as the new "moderate" democratic opposition in Syria and therefore a group the West could back to depose Assad.
#48. To: cranky (#0)
#49. To: Pericles (#41)
Why is DC not mentioning al-Nusra
#50. To: Don (#48)
It's a little disconcerting when even the Pentagon might be lying to the American people.
#51. To: paraclete (#50)
#52. To: Don (#51)
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
[Home] [Headlines] [Latest Articles] [Latest Comments] [Post] [Mail] [Sign-in] [Setup] [Help] [Register]