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Title: Letter to Pope Francis -- It is not a miracle that 575 of us in Milwaukee came forward
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Published: Sep 25, 2015
Author: Peter J. Isely
Post Date: 2015-09-25 10:51:14 by GrandIsland
Keywords: None
Views: 11166
Comments: 52
September 23, 2015 Pope Francis Apostolic Palace 00120 Vatican City Dear Pope Francis, I am one of 575 victims of childhood rape, sexual assault or abuse by clergy who have worked in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee who have filed cases seeking restitution from the church in US Federal Bankruptcy Court. I am writing to you on our behalf and on behalf of our families. Every rape or sexual assault of a child is a double act of theft: first it steals the body and then it steals the voice. Seeking justice as adults through our courts for the crimes that were committed against us as children is an effort by us to restore both body and voice. That is why we were cheered when, early in your pontificate, you directly and explicitly affirmed the rightness and importance for victims to seek justice and restitution through the civil justice system. We filed our cases for restitution over four and a half years ago in US Bankruptcy Court because the new Milwaukee Archbishop Jerome Listecki publicly assured us that by doing so he would use the bankruptcy court to bring just “compensation, healing and resolution” to victims. The chief architect of the bankruptcy, however, was Listecki’s predecessor, Archbishop Timothy Dolan, who repeatedly and directly spoke of his remorse for the crimes committed by Milwaukee clergy against children. Imagine our sense of betrayal, then, when we learned that Archbishop Dolan before leaving for his new post as Archbishop of New York had acted directly to contravene the spirit of the very principle of civil justice for victims that your words celebrate and affirm. In a letter obtained in federal court, Dolan wrote to Cardinal Claudio Hummes, Prefect of Congregation of the Clergy, for permission to transfer nearly $60 million dollars of assets into a new “Cemetery Perpetual Care Trust.” The archdiocese, of course, already had money set aside for the care of cemeteries. Why was Dolan seeking permission to make a new trust? Because the Wisconsin Supreme Court had just issued a unanimous ruling against the Milwaukee Archdiocese stating that there was sufficient evidence of its fraudulent concealment and transfer of clergy child sex offenders that the archdiocese could be brought to civil court by victims seeking restitution. Dolan, in the letter, clearly stated his intent in creating a new and unneeded trust.“By transferring these assets to the Trust, they [the monies]will be protected by any legal claim and liability.” Additionally, the newly created cemetery trust was intended for only eight cemeteries, most of which also have a mausoleum in or near or near the City of Milwaukee. All the many remaining Catholic cemeteries in the archdiocese do not benefit from this trust. $60 million dollars is hardly required to serve the needs of only eight cemeteries. Dolan’s transfer of tens of millions of dollars to prevent victims from just compensation is an act of civil and, in all likelihood, criminal fraud under US law. Court documents also show that Dolan, after public denials to the contrary, devised and executed a secret policy of paying clerics who had abused children (a $20,000 dollar “signing bonus” added to their pension and other benefits) to leave the priesthood without the archdiocese notifying the unsuspecting communities in which they settled. The new church you are urging us to build together requires you to hold Cardinal Dolan accountable for the planning, direction and, to a very significant degree, the current outcome of the bankruptcy, which has resulted in: --The lowest settlements of any church bankruptcy in the United States by a factor of ten, with individual amounts to victims that do not even begin to address the severe and lasting harm done to them or provide anywhere near the resources required to begin a true recovery, with some clergy rape victims receiving as little as $2,000 dollars. --Only 26 percent of the total bankruptcy settlement money will be allocated to help victims. 74 percent of the costs will pay lawyers’ fees, including $19.5 million to church and bankruptcy lawyers, $4 million in legal expenses to defend Dolan’s trust, and $7 million to victim attorneys; in other words, over twice as much money will be pocketed by church and other lawyers then will be given to help survivors. --Most alarmingly, direct victim reports filed into court detail that at least 100 newly alleged clergy child sex offenders from the archdiocese have not been properly investigated or prosecuted, leaving countless children at risk in our church and community. You have said that “the courage” victims show “by speaking up, by telling the truth” has been “in the service of love” to “shed light on a terrible darkness in the life of the Church.” The church believes that God so ordered the universe that he placed at the center of creation the human heart and at the center of the human heart, the faculty of free consent. Love does not exist or enter the embodied soul without free consent. That is why the sexual violence by a priest against a child is a demonic parody of both creation and love, of the very miracle of creation through love. It is an endless mystery that the shame the priest sex offender should logically and naturally feel within his own soul while violating the body of the child is rarely if ever felt by him. Instead, the shame of this crime, this awful and crushing weight, is poured into the body of the victim – our bodies. This is why it is we, not the offender, who feels the weight of this criminal shame, and why it is so difficult for most of us to come forward and bring our violation to speech. Is it not a miracle that 575 of us in Milwaukee come forward, three generations of survivors, and together as brothers and sisters speak the unspeakable? Every time a survivor speaks, as you so rightly acknowledged, no matter how difficult to hear or unwanted the effect, it is an act of love for the church. Victims in Milwaukee can still receive justice with your intervention and help. The money fraudulently transferred by Dolan which should have been used to compensate victims can still be put to that very purpose. Your time here in New York City will give you an opportunity to continue your pledge to hold Cardinal Dolan and other bishops accountable for the ongoing crisis of clerical sexual abuse and honor 575 acts of love and truth. Sincerely, Peter J. Isely SNAP Midwest Director Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAPnetwork.org) Poster Comment: Bob... should I post that religion has made 575 more enemies? Or is your logic flawed?
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#13. To: Vicomte13 (#12)
(Edited)
which goes by what name, specifically? What did Jesus call His Church? What did He command of them? To spread the Good News, right? Is Pope Francis doing that? Is he being a Peacemaker OR Divider? What is his priority? Is the Pope calling Evil "good," and good, "evil"? I assume we BOTH know Jesus' "Church" isn't one that subscribes to one that worships the STATE over His Father; Engages in coercive wealth retribution, promotes, defends, and reinforces the Gospel. THAT "Church." If a Catholic were to walk out of membership of the Roman Catholic Church, into which specific Church organization should he walk? One that makes the practice and spreading of the Gospel a priority. Do you agree? Not in an abstract sense, but a concrete sense: what is the street address and name on the buidling to which the ex-Catholic should physically go? I don't know your area or neighborhood, but if I were you, and the message of the Gospel and fellowship with the like-minded were paramount to you, I'd sit in on some services and "audition" it based on the spirit, message, and vibe...and ask yourself -- "Would Jesus sit in this Church and approve of its message?" I'm sorry you've taken my harsh criticism of this Pope and Vatican to heart, but please don't take it personally. It's been exposed as anything BUT "Christ-like." Pope Francis as well as the Vatican have little in common with the Truth, Jesus Christ or His Gospel.
Some people can handle the truth and some can't, the ones that can't lash out at others instead of looking within...
I have read carefully. My question is very straightforward. It is true that I don't live in your neightborhood (I assume you don't live in Connecticut). If I did live in your neighborhood, what is the name of the Church I should attend?
I'm on my way out the door to go to a farmers market with the wife. I'll post later. The long and short of it is this.... Bob likes to blame all of LE for the deeds of each corrupt act by staring, "and the police make 3 more enemies" instead of putting blame on the individual corrupt officers. So in return, as it relates to this article, is all religion to blame for what some priests have done? Did "religion" make 575 more enemies? I think not... but in bobs quest to hate LE in general, he's unable to think rationally. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Bobby, I'm asking you a question. What is your question Grandie?
Yep. And within sometimes is the Great Lie that corrodes their Golden Calf....yet they keep on polishing it, perpetuating their grand delusion.
I've never known you to be obtuse. It is true that I don't live in your neightborhood (I assume you don't live in Connecticut). If I did live in your neighborhood, what is the name of the Church I should attend? Is a specific brand "name" of a church more important than one which is true to the Gospel and Word of God, and a church philosophy of which is Christ-centered for which the Father would approve? I've made my recommendation for a church and why. It's not for me to choose for *you* a church. However I appreciate your respect of my endorsement, judgment and guidance on the matter. On such a matter of great importance -- and as a man who I've found to be a devout seeker and respecter of God's word -- may I suggest interviewing your area's church leaders and/or and sitting in on some Sunday services? It's really the only way most of us find a church we're comfortable with. And even at that -- sometimes THAT situation changes when church leaders go a bit rogue, which these days happens more often than it used to.
I can only speak for myself -- don't like to broadbrush and mix LE business with God's business. It's unfair to everyone. So in return, as it relates to this article, is all religion to blame for what some priests have done? Did "religion" make 575 more enemies? Frankly, for some, LE *is* a "religion" too, that makes your statement all the more confusing.
Aaaaw, what a thoughtful hubby...Will she allow you to put down her pocketbook long enough to post a bit more in depth on your iPhone? ;-)
I am not asking for the way to choose a church. Nor do I seek a brand name. I am asking for the specific name of the Church, the place of worship that I should attend if I were your nextdoor neighbor, the place that YOU YOURSELF think is worthy to attend. The Church I attend is St. Luke's Catholic Church, on Turkey Hill Road in Westport, Connecticut. I suppose that the "brand name" is Catholic. The church is St. Luke's. That is the granularity I seek from you. Not generalities - specificity. Generalities are grand, but we life our lives in concrete heartbeats.
I think my point is quite clear and rational. Bobby hates LE, so he blames the profession for what the bad apples do. Just like an atheist might blame religion for what a few bad priest apples have done. Lib, enough with your spin... and speak towards the points I made. LE isn't a religion. Religion isn't LE... and even if it was, what's that got to do with Bobby or reality? Nobody asked you to broad brush... the point is that Bobby does... and danced the top of the fence to avoid what Bobby does by saying you don't like doing it. Speak straight up, leave out the yella... and if you can't do that because Bobby is your religious bud, then why get in the conversation? If you've noticed... Bobby is still playing stupid. Still asking what the question is. Bobby makes 3 more enemies. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
I myself, from reading the Bible carefully, thoroughly, fully, exploring the language, find no requirement of God or of Jesus to attend a ritual meeting on Sunday anywhere. It is well to go meet people to pray, but it is in no way a requirement. Nor is there any specified day at all, for Christians. There is a day that Christians traditionally did it, Traditions are not laws of God, and it is sin to claim that any tradition IS a law of God: it is adding to God's word. "Church" is an english word. The Greek word is "ekklesia", and it literally means "those called out [of a group]. The ekklesia - the church - are the people called out from the wider group of the world. It is not a building, it is not an organization, and it does not have to regularly meet to perform rituals, readings and have services. It is well if it does, as long as that is meaningful to those who choose to do it. If it's a source of backbiting and hair- checking and a burden, one should stop going rather than sin by going. It is by works that a man must make his way forward in God's service. That is what each one called out is to do. It is more effective to do it together, to strengthen each other - but there is no set prescribed means by which that is done, and any tradition that says that there is - and that it is mandatory - errs by saying so, and sins if they escalate the argument, speaking as though they had the authority of God, which they do not. (My own Catholic Church, brand name, is guilty of this on many things, and has been worse historically than it is now. But I listen to others as well, claiming Sunday - which is not the sabbath - and claiming the requirement of a set meeting, which is a tradition of men and not a law of God (and, when insisted upon under penalty of sin, is a sin in itself - men may not add to the laws of God, even for the good of other men). Concreteness is important. I know the theory. I know it well, from all sorts of sides. But God is looking for action, for works - and that is how he judges each Christian: on his works. Individually a man can do so much. To do greater things in God's service requires many hands, and that requires those called out to come together, to pray, to eat, to celebrate. For that reason, a church is a good thing to have. If one has found one that fits all of the bills, then one should not be shy about saying so. Specifically. Concreteness.
When you can retire as a government employee at the age 50 years of age, simply walking school kids across the street for twenty years while accumulating bonus points for a phootball game or two or while eating free doughnuts and slurping' koffee on duty dripin' your silly little badge of authority and the beer stained shirt you are given by the government and GOD only knows where else, it is religious phanaticism at its best.
The only part of your bullshit that was even remotely true, was "retiring at age 50". It was 49. The rest of it is untrue bullshit... and LE isn't a "religion". I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Where in the NT does it speak about not forsaking assembling yourself together?
Psalm 37
A twenty year career sitting around & walkin' little kids across the street isn't an accurate statement? OK, how about standin' around the water cooler to get your next job from a dispatcher because your colleague needs a replacement chair & umbrella because it was "hot" one day? OOPPSS! How about the tyme you went for dounuts & koffee @ the local doughnut shop operated by illegal aliens and you gave them a pass?
I think like Bobby, you've sat on too many apricot kernels. Seek help. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Perhaps you shall permit a wee little poster to learn a bit about your cryptographic code ring? Are you working with "yukon" now that gay marrigae is rampant in America? And you want little 'ol me to sit on an apricot kernel? What does that mean, since you exemplify "colour of law?" I mean you are one "apricot" of an asshole, siding with the concensus for a need about a police state mentality, so lets get your "apricot kernel" out on the table for discusion. What the FUCK are you talking about?
What the FUCK are you talking about? It's way above your head Bucky... and even if you had the ability to comprehend, your opinion is useless. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
So, mister retired, school crossing guard ... you can't explain your own rhetorical comments when challenged? You fucked-upped, as usual. - 1000
Bucky, who ever invited you to this conversation? Not I. You have nothing to offer except insults about crossing guards and donuts. You are a forum joke. The token forum tool. I need not "explain" nothing to you. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Your topic on this thread is about catholic priest's ... Are you aware of the sexual molestation that FUCKIN' COPS do everyday to little kids? You are an adherent to another religion, cop: it is the LE religion called "colour of law." Ask me to PROVE my post. I dare ya, doughnut eater.
That's good Bucky. 650,000 cops in this country and you found one case.... and like apricot kernel Bobby, this one case makes all cops perverts? lol The article is about 575 victims from PRIESTS. Not one sexual assault victim of a priest from yesterday's article... But FIVE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY FIVE... and even I don't blame their profession. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Assembling yourselves together is good and proper. Where in the NT does God command that it be done each week, on Sunday? That Christians did it under normal conditions is well, but they also attended synagogue on Saturday. It is not the fact of assemblage, but the specificity of the demands that turns what is good and proper into a law that is not a law.
LE is a cult; you are a high priest in a religious cult under the colour of law.
I'm retired. I work around my yard, I golf... and I shoot guns A LOT at the range. Dumb dumb. lol I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
The Bible states what I said. The early church decided on meeting on Sunday. The RCC and Protestant Denominations decided on when to meet. No Protestant Denominations has the meeting times as a law.
Psalm 37
What you said, was that the Bible didn't say something. So, the Bible doesn't state what you said it doesn't state. That would hold true for everything that the Bible doesn't state. What you mean is "the Bible agrees with what I think". That's probably true for everybody on earth to some extent. In the particular point that we were discussing, it means that, Biblically speaking, the Bible states what I said, and the Bible doesn't state what you say it doesn't state. Match null.
Not in an abstract sense, but a concrete sense: what is the street address and name on the buidling to which the ex-Catholic should physically go? Vicomte13 posted on 2015-09-25 15:25:21 ET That is the granularity I seek from you. Not generalities - specificity. I am asking for the specific name of the Church, the place of worship that I should attend if I were your nextdoor neighbor, the place that YOU YOURSELF think is worthy to attend. I thought I answered you above and beyond. Maybe I was wrong, or you misunderstood me. You requested my recommendation for a church org to consider; I gave it. As to *specific* church, you *did* request a brand name. But that's ok. How can one go wrong with choosing a Christ-centered, Gospel-preaching, Scripture-based church Baptist or Evangelical church? I've attended both.Since all church Pastors and orgs are independent and have unique personalities, again, you may want to arrange a consult with Pastors, and/or attend at least a couple of services at the same church in order to discern whether Christ would approve of style and substance....and whether your spirit is inspired. You may surprise yourself. I hope that is specific enough for you. You betray no one -- certainly not Christ or the Father from exploring a more fundamental understanding of Jesus original intent. The Church I attend is St. Luke's Catholic Church, on Turkey Hill Road in Westport, Connecticut. I suppose that the "brand name" is Catholic. The church is St. Luke's. Thank you for your specificity, but it wasn't necessary. For the record, I've never doubted the sincerity of your faith and search for the truth. For whatever reason, sometimes some of us are challenged to leave the comfort zone of our respective box of worship. In a sense, (and especially within a smaller, close-knit town, it could be regarded as "cheating," so social ramifications are a consideration.)
No, it wasn't, but with this post there's a lot more clarity. I get it; Your analogy of institutional criminality and broad-sweeping indictments of ALL does hold some water, but frankly, your example was as far off the wall as Bob's regarding LE. To me you've both been wrong. Happy now? Ok, so you poked Bob in the eye specifically by posing the question point blank whether "religion has made 575 more enemies?" By followed up by asking Bob whether his "logic [was] flawed?" Which logic is that? One that broad-brushes? Or exposes frequent tendencies? Homosexuality and pedophilia aren't an official "religion" the last I looked, so you missed that boat. But it could be said that homosexuality and pedophilia are religious cults, operating with near-impunity as a yet unchecked rogue element within the Roman Catholic Church. In doing so, I guess they used their "uniforms" as "Men of God." But just the same, a strong argument can be made that embedded within "religion" of the Wall of Blue -- Law Enforcement -- are far too many rogue elements who also hide beyond *their* respective uniforms and badge, betraying the trust of the unsuspecting, violating the civil and constitutional rights of the citizenry, abusing their power and position...with near-impunity. It's gotten a lot worse during the past 10-20 years. The Roman Catholic Church operates quite similarly to Law Enforcement in its institutional hierarchy of "Bosses" and what offenses are considered "serious." Both institutions cover up crimes of their brethren if possible, using their respective badge or cross as buffers or GET-OUT-OF-JAIL cards. But for that matter, politicians are just as guilty of the aforementioned offenses, aren't they? Of course there are far more good, well-intending Catholic clergy and LE who do their jobs and tasks than the minority "bad apple" element. Unfortunately some things never change: BOTH respective institutions and leadership refuse to take out the trash, and both institutions love power too much. LE isn't a religion. Religion isn't LE. Who's zooming who now? You forget -- I have LE family. LE is run like a church, the Police Commish its Pope, the Chief its Bishop, the Sgt, the Monsignor. "Religion" NOT like LE? It depends. It is when it comes to Islam. The RCC *is* run a lot like a Police hierarchy or Army.
It is well to go meet people to pray, but it is in no way a requirement. Nor is there any specified day at all, for Christians. "Remember the Sabbath and to keep it holy" (Yes, I know the "Sabbath" is Saturday.) Yes, it IS well and good to fellowship with others. Who am I to ding anyone for not attending an organized church? The Father know your heart. God is looking for action, for works - and that is how he judges each Christian: on his works. Individually a man can do so much. To do greater things in God's service requires many hands, and that requires those called out to come together, to pray, to eat, to celebrate. For that reason, a church is a good thing to have. If one has found one that fits all of the bills, then one should not be shy about saying so. Specifically. Well stated.
Yes, very pleased. Btw, I'll be in your Nazi state tomorrow... at MetLife Stadium. Got tickets to watch the NY JETS destroy the Philadelphia Eagles. Hopefully that Pope doesn't cause me to arrive late. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
One that broad brushes. It's illogical to broad brush... that's the libtard way to pass or spread blame. In Bobbys case, to make an entire profession look bad because he has an agenda. I want him to admit that all of religion deserved 575 more enemies if the police in general make 3 more enemies from Deckards next yella article. I'm the infidel... Allah warned you about. كافر المسلح
Keeping the Sabbath day holy means, specifically, not working on Saturday. There was no requirement among Jews to go to the Temple. They had to go to the Temple three times per year. They had a tradition, later, of going to synagogues. That was fine, but there is no requirement under the law. They had a tradition, earlier, of going to a local altar, a "high place" and making a local sacrifice, and God damned both the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah to destruction on account of that. Honoring the Sabbath day and keeping it undefiled meant that it was a death penalty offense to DO any work on the sabbath, or to make anybody else, including a slave or an animal or a wife or child, to work on the Sabbath. Even lighting a fire to cook was work, and a death penalty offense. So, is that the law still? If it is, Christians can't be driving to church on Saturday. They can only get there by walking someplace close. Per Scripture. Obviously, then, the Scripture you cited has nothing to do with going to Church. Christians cite it as though it does, but under the terms of that very law, most Christians should be put to death for defiling the Sabbath. Keeping the Sabbath holy did not mean "go to the Temple". It meant "don't work", and "stay close to home". One cannot tease any sort of moral requirement to go to a Christian service on a different day out of that. If one is going to cite it, then one must include the full Sabbath law in Scripture - Saturday, no work, stay at home - nothing to do with what Christians do on Sunday, or any sort of congregation. To hear Scripture, Jews eventually erected synagogues within walking distance on Sunday. That's grand. And it's not the church.
Heh...but Joisey's only slightly less fascist than the Reichland whose unconstitutional laws you used to occasionally enforce...Buford. I give you some credit for at least trying to be fair when possible. Back to the game: Make sure security notes your boots are VERY shiny at MetLife, and gently remind Jets security (probably some fat black chick with a tude) to keep her hands to herself, so tape her ;-) I'm pulling for the Dirty Birds to dismantle this mirage called the Jets. Wait...is Pope Frankarooni due in the Big Apple today?
Yes, I will concede that Bob does over-do his broadbrush of LE, but then he (as well as many of us) have seen a dramatic change in LE tudes over the last 20 or so years. He's undoubtedly seen and heard so much unnecessary disrespect and over-officiousness that he just assumes the worst and has given up. Law-abiding guys like Bob and others feel betrayed; I'd bet you dollars to donuts (ha -- get it?) that he wasn't always that way. LEOs acting un-professionally seem to be the rule rather than exception these days. Your brethren made their bed....and now the good ones are unfortunately discredited. Those relatives I've mentioned of mine? For 20 years, it's been the same old. Still a-holes and *ricks. Losers when younger, still bragging on how they've gotten away with sh*t, AND how they've used their badges to abuse, bully, and feed their egos. Not an ounce of humility or pride in doing their job right. Are THEY anomalies? NOT making this up. FWIW, Essex Co. LE. I also know a few younger local guys who learned quickly to use their badge as a "Do-whatever-the h*ll-I-want!" Card. Your profession is NOT helping itself, GI. I want him to admit that all of religion deserved 575 more enemies if the police in general make 3 more enemies from Deckards next yella article. You just don't get it.... That said, I'm also tired of articles that constantly bash LE.
I know what the "Sabbath" means as a day of holiness, as well as its symbolism and tradition. It's also remains one of God's Commandments, is it not? As we both know, Jesus refined the Law of the Sabbath somewhat as far as "work" is concerned. One cannot tease any sort of moral requirement to go to a Christian service on a different day out of that. What "tease"? I made no inference of any moral obligation that you or anyone attend a church service; Only that God smiles upon fellowship, knowing well that it helps others in reinforcing, encouraging, inspiring, and replenishing faith, friendship, and spirit. That is led usually by a Pastor, Reverend, or Priest during a service; Or even HERE at LF by some -- including yourself. If one is going to cite it, then one must include the full Sabbath law in Scripture - Saturday, no work, stay at home - nothing to do with what Christians do on Sunday, or any sort of congregation. Now don't get all pious on me. I think you're a bit defensive...unnecessarily I might add. To hear Scripture, Jews eventually erected synagogues within walking distance on Sunday. That's grand. And it's not the church. It IS Grand gesture...made grand-er if only they were walking to a service that acknowledges and worships the Messiah and shares the Gospel. Can I get an "AMEN!"?? :-)
Perhaps.
To circumcised descendants of Hebrews at Sinai who want a farm in Israel...if the Temple were restored and the rites re-initiated and the rest of the law followed such that it would be possible to actually get that farm in Israel. To Gentiles it was never a commandment. Gentiles were never part of the covenant that contained it, and Jesus didn't make it part of the New Covenant. So no, it is not a commandment for you and for me, and it never was since the beginning of time. It was, like the prohibition on pork, exclusively a commandment for the lineal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the reward for keeping which was a farm in Israel. The Sabbath never had anything to do with eternal life or final judgment, and it is not part of the Law of God for mankind. Just for Sinaitic Jews. That said, Jesus and YHWH explained the purpose of the Sabbath: a REST. The Sabbath was made for man, beast, and even for the ground: a rest from labor. Christians do not lose eternal life if they work 7/7 the way they lose eternal life if, say, they murder people or lie, but God knows that man needs rest, so he made the Sabbath as an example. The properly-minded Christian understands that men SHOULD be given a full day of rest every week, because men need that. But the Christian who works 7/7 does not sin, because there is no law for him on the matter. Nor is this a matter of "cutting a part out of the law". The Sabbath is still there in the law of Moses, which had nothing to do with eternal life, but which applied exclusively - as a direct, strict law (as opposed to a best practices suggestion) to the Hebrews at Sinai and their lineal descendants. And for them, the penalty of breaking the law of the Sabbath was not the loss of eternal life, for the Sinai Covenant promised no eternal life or even life after death even for those who kept the WHOLE law entirely without deviation. The only promise of Sinai was a secure farm in Israel for those people. Nothing more. That's certainly still part of that Law, but that is not the Law of God that applies to us. The Law that applies to us was given by Jesus. So no, it is not a commandment of God for Christians.
(Return to Jesus' REAL church.)
#14. To: Liberator (#13)
#15. To: Liberator (#13)
I'm sorry you've taken my harsh criticism of this Pope and Vatican to heart, but please don't take it personally.
#16. To: Liberator (#10)
(Edited)
#17. To: GrandIsland (#1)
Is it logical to claim religion made 575 more enemies
#18. To: CZ82 (#14)
Some people can handle the truth and some can't, the ones that can't lash out at others instead of looking within...
#19. To: Vicomte13 (#15)
I have read carefully.
#20. To: GrandIsland, Bob Celeste (#16)
The long and short of it is this.... Bob likes to blame all of LE for the deeds of each corrupt act by staring, "and the police make 3 more enemies" instead of putting blame on the individual corrupt officers.
#21. To: GrandIsland (#16)
I'm on my way out the door to go to a farmers market with the wife. I'll post later.
#22. To: Liberator (#19)
#23. To: Liberator (#20)
#24. To: Liberator (#19)
#25. To: GrandIsland (#23)
(Edited)
LE isn't a religion.
#26. To: buckeroo (#25)
When you can retire as a government employee at the age 50 years of age, simply walking school kids across the street for twenty years while accumulating bonus points for a phootball game or two or while eating free doughnuts and slurping' koffee on duty dripin' your silly little badge of authority and the beer stained shirt you are given by the government and GOD only knows where else, it is religious phanaticism at its best.
#27. To: Vicomte13 (#24)
#28. To: GrandIsland (#26)
#29. To: buckeroo (#28)
#30. To: GrandIsland (#29)
you've sat on too many apricot kernels.
#31. To: buckeroo (#30)
#32. To: GrandIsland (#31)
It's way above your head
#33. To: buckeroo (#32)
#34. To: GrandIsland (#33)
#35. To: GrandIsland, All (#34)
(Edited)
#36. To: buckeroo (#35)
#37. To: Don (#27)
#38. To: GrandIsland (#36)
LE isn't a religion.
#39. To: buckeroo (#38)
LE is a cult; you are s high priest in a religious cult.
#40. To: Vicomte13 (#37)
#41. To: Don (#40)
The Bible states what I said.
#42. To: Vicomte13 (#22)
I am not asking for the way to choose a church. Nor do I seek a brand name.
If a Catholic were to walk out of membership of the Roman Catholic Church, into which specific Church organization should he walk?
#43. To: GrandIsland, Bob Celeste (#23)
(Edited)
I think my point is quite clear and rational. Bobby hates LE, so he blames the profession for what the bad apples do. Just like an atheist might blame religion for what a few bad priest apples have done.
#44. To: Vicomte13 (#24)
I myself, from reading the Bible carefully, thoroughly, fully, exploring the language, find no requirement of God or of Jesus to attend a ritual meeting on Sunday anywhere.
#45. To: Liberator (#43)
No, it wasn't, but with this post there's a lot more clarity. I get it; Your analogy of institutional criminality and broad-sweeping indictments of ALL does hold some water, but frankly, your example was as far off the wall as Bob's regarding LE. To
#46. To: Liberator (#43)
Ok, so you poked Bob in the eye specifically by posing the question point blank whether "religion has made 575 more enemies?" By followed up by asking Bob whether his "logic [was] flawed?" Which logic is that? One that broad-brushes? Or exposes frequent tendencies?
#47. To: Liberator (#44)
#48. To: GrandIsland (#45)
#49. To: GrandIsland, Bob Celeste (#46)
(Edited)
One that broad brushes. It's illogical to broad brush... that's the libtard way to pass or spread blame. In Bobbys case, to make an entire profession look bad because he has an agenda.
#50. To: Vicomte13 (#47)
#51. To: Liberator (#50)
I think you're a bit defensive...
#52. To: Liberator (#50)
It's also remains one of God's Commandments, is it not?
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