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Title: The Two Shall Become One Flesh
Source:
First Things
URL Source: https://www.firstthings.com/article ... ne-flesh-reclaiming-marriage-2
Published: Feb 26, 2015
Author: Evangelicals & Catholics Together
Post Date: 2015-02-26 22:04:36 by redleghunter
Ping List: *Religious History and Issues* Subscribe to *Religious History and Issues*
Keywords: None
Views: 42989
Comments: 194
In the Gospel of St. Mark, the Lord Jesus teaches that “from the beginning of creation ‘God made them male and female.’” He then declares a great and beautiful truth inscribed in creation: “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh” (Mark 10:6–8). For centuries, Christians have proclaimed these words at weddings, for they express the gift of marriage long recognized by all humanity and acknowledged by men and women of faith: Marriage is the union of a man and a woman. This truth is being obscured, even denied, today. Because of that, the institution of marriage, which is essential to the well-being of society, is being undermined. As Christians, it is our responsibility to bear witness to the truth about marriage as taught by both revelation and reason—by the Holy Scriptures and by the truths inscribed on the human heart. These age-old truths explain why Christians celebrate marriage—the coming-together of a man and woman in a binding union of mutual support—as one of the glories of the human race. Marriage is the primordial human institution, a reality that existed long before the establishment of what we now know as the state. As the most venerable and reliable basis for domestic happiness, marriage is the foundation of a just and stable society. Yet in our times this institution has been gravely weakened by the sexual revolution and the damage it has done to marriage and the family: widespread divorce; the dramatic increase in out-of-wedlock births; the casual acceptance of premarital sex and cohabitation; and a contraceptive mentality which insists that sex has an arbitrary relation to procreation. In this environment, families fragment, the poor suffer, and children are especially vulnerable and at risk. The decline of marriage culture is evident throughout the world, and where it is evident, the common good is imperiled. Poster Comment: God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. And God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply.” (Gen. 1:27–28)
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#73. To: redleghunter (#60)
I haven't attempted to refute anything. Why should I bother with your recommendations? I am not attempting to suggest anything other than you have delusions in a religious or traditional GOD. I do not share your belief is all and you can't convince anyone that you have a rightous faith about GOD other than little, self-created devils running within you.
Science will render Abomination, and God His justice in response -- Naturally.
That would depend upon their behavior, and whether they worship themselves more than they obey the laws of Nature.
Should men be afforded the same civil rights to become pregnant? How about those women cornering that market?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
The answer seems evident as God created woman to give birth not man. You probably need to brush up on your Genesis story. But if a man could become pregnant please cite the law(s) that would deny him the same civil rights as the state grants to a pregnant woman. But you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that God commands us to deny gays the same civil rights as the state deems/grants to straights? If not, then what delusion(s) is involved in the state granting gays the same civil right to a state recognized civil union as it does for straights?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So infertile people are unsocibiologically fit, worthless junk? That would depend upon their behavior, and whether they worship themselves more than they obey the laws of Nature. Then please define what you mean by socibiologically fit.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
No my line of questioning is correct. Two people of the same gender demanding equal protections for something that is not for people of the same gender is akin to man demanding the government recognize he should be and can be able to become pregnant. It is absurd to apply marriage to a civil right for those who don't qualify to be married. If the state wants to provide a legal standing in order for non-married same gender persons or even opposite gender aquaintances to enter into a financial, legal or estate contract, then that is up to the state. But that ain't marriage.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Who says they don't qualify for the civil right of a civil union? We do not live in a theocracy. We live in a secular republic in which all men are equal under the law - the only reason the State can deny a right grant to all to a specific class of people is if the State can put forth a compelling reason on a issue by issue basis and have the courts approve it (as the State has done for bigamy). "If the state wants to provide a legal standing in order for non-married same gender persons or even opposite gender aquaintances to enter into a financial, legal or estate contract, then that is up to the state. But that ain't marriage." Currently, as it always has been in the U.S., what the State sanctions and recognizes as, and calls marriage, is in fact not what the various religions call marriage. The State does not deal in Sacraments, it deals in civil sanctions, civil rights irrespective of what the Pope or Sharia Law has to say about the matter. Obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's. Let God be the judge of who violates His laws. Now if you can convince the State to present a compelling reason for it to deny gays the exact recognition and legal status of the civil union (otherwise called marriage) that it grants to straights have at it. If the courts agree then you are home free. But it is clear that the State cannot present such a compelling argument which would be acceptable under the U.S. Constitution and have the courts so rule. POTUS is not God. SCOTUS is not God. The U.S. Constitution is not Holy Scripture. You are entitled to your opinions on the matter. You are entitled to campaign, lobby, organize, protest, picket, disrupt, and, otherwise stir up the pot to the fullest extent of the law and even beyond. But in the end, you live in a country that is ruled by the laws of men not the Laws of God. And you are certainly free to disobey the laws of man in preference to what you believe is the Laws of God. Just be prepared to pay the secular consequences when you do. In this country the issue of what you call marriage, which is a secular thing sanctioned by the State, is nothing more than a codified secular recognition of a civil union of no religious meaning. The Church(s) adopt what the State sanctions and for its own religious reasons endows this secular State sanctioned union with a religious component that is only relevant to that Church. In the eyes of the State there is absolutely no difference between the civil union it grants to a couple and the civil union which the State allows a Church to grant to a couple and to embellish with its own religious meaning - they are exactly the same under the law. It is amazing that you cannot grasp this concept in a country where the State has so liberally sanctioned abortion. Have you, I, the Church, or even the opinion of 50%+ of the U.S. people stopped the legalization of abortion? So I say to you again, obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's and let God be the judge. He knows what to do. If you are compelled to do something I suggest getting the Church to refer to the Sacrament of Marriage as Holy Matrimony which is the sacramental joining together of a man and woman as husband and wife (or whatever term best conveys the meaning). Let the State keep the term marriage for its secular civil union. If memory serves there are just a handful (if any) usage of the word marriage itself in the NT, whatever references there are consist of the usage of the word marry.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You're doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality. It's really Apple Pie and Justice for all.
Nope. Pebbles, you are wrong. The US government has migrated to policies that literally explore additional taxbases by ensuring all people into the citizenry by granting limited rights or priviledges. It is similar to US government policies for accepting illegal immigration. FACT: The nation is broke. THE POLITICAL SOLUTION: Let's get everyone on the bandwagon while we can! US Government is not about morality issues other than revenue streams that may further control the populice.
Are you kidding? Are you saying that the government is forcing people to be gay or to engage in homosexual activities or even accept it? Come on, you are more intelligent than that. Are you familiar with the terms "pursuit of happiness"? Where in the U.S. Constitution grants you or I or anyone to power to legislate to someone what their happiness MUST be? However, there is one very, very simple solution to your rejection of the U.S. Constitution as applied to gays. Just get homosexuality declared illegal in the U.S. Bingo! That's all you need to do. BTW, what is your mental gymnastics that allows you to tolerate legalized abortion in the U.S.?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You certainly are a one trick pony with a hammer that sees every issue as a nail.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So I say to you again, obey your God and render unto Caeser what is Caesar's and let God be the judge. He knows what to do. Do you really think Jesus Christ meant 'rendering to Caesar' means murdered babies? Jesus called for a coin, not a baby. NO. Unless you think child sacrifice is what the founders had in mind. Any nation devoid of absolute moral standards have failed and will continue to fail. Our Western world has embraced humanism (man is at the center of all things), materialism (what we make or do we worship) and relativism (there are no absolutes only individual particulars). It is the destructive recipe which destroyed previous civilizations.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I don't believe Jesus said to give one cent to Rome. He said to give to Caesar what is Ceesars. The fruit of your labor is not Caesars.
I've never made an argument to just accept abortion like you did about accepting homos.
Multiple generations of viable offspring. Infertile individuals can still increase the fitness of their culture. Homosexual activists have never increased the fitness of the various cultures they've infested.
Well, the USA seems to have certainly sealed its fate then. So in spite of what you claim you do in fact want to negate the Constitution and have the USA become a theocracy, just like Islam. This is the only way that you MIGHT have a country that in reality lives by the Christian moral standards that is imposed under punishment of law on its citizens. You can't have it both ways. "Do you really think Jesus Christ meant 'rendering to Caesar' means murdered babies?" He certainly meant to included slavery which I am certain that neither He or his Father condone. I believe that it is quite clear that He meant give the earthly state whatever the earthly state is due. The state will seal its own fate and those individuals in that state that do not live by God's laws will surely answer to Him.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Never suggested a theocracy. Just sanity. If a state votes or passes legislation protecting traditional marriage that is how they should live. Two of the same sex getting hitched is not a religious matter. Historical precedent.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Never suggested a theocracy. But that is what you really want as you clearly do not like what the U.S. Constitution allows. N.B. - it does allow insanity. "If a state votes or passes legislation protecting traditional marriage that is how they should live." What about if a state passes legislation allowing slavery? Or bigamy? Or beastiality? Or free use of any drug known to man?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Tell that to the U.S. Figure Skating Association:)
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
You see homosexual "marriage" in the same categories as the above?
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
I've never made an argument to just accept abortion like you did about accepting homos. You need to be a bit more discerning about what you read and say as words do make a difference. I never - ever - said that I or anyone else must accept homosexuality in any of its sexual practices. Nor did I ever say that the State can force, or is forcing, anyone to accept homosexuality in society. I said, as basically does the U.S. Constitution, that homosexuality, not being an illegal state of being or of personal sexual practice, must be tolerated in our society. Note the word I actually used- tolerated - not accepted. Please correct your post to me if you wish to further dialogue.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
When Caesar collects taxes on it that part of the your fruit most certainly is his.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
I see the intolerance of homosexuality as being of the same cloth as those other activities. Now please answer my question if you will. Does a state have the right to pass and enforce laws permitting things such as slavery, bigamy, bestiality, drug useage, etc. which contravene what is required under the U.S. Constitution?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Should the Winter Olympics committee be forced to accept same sex figure skating pairs? Based on your line of reasoning to prohibit such is discrimination. I mean if two talented gay men want to skate against hetero couples pairs who are the Olympics committee to deny such./sarc
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
It's a bizarre question as gays are not bound in slavery, are not denied public places. And yes there are states that do prohibit bigamy, bestiality and drug use. Just because your state has embraced hedonism does not mean Texas has to.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Look at the pictures and tell me what do you think I think? Then tell me what you think.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
So to you bigamy and bestiality prohibitions are discriminatory and have no place in our body of law? Remind me to put a double lock on the student barn.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Like bestiality not the same sport. Those are same gender teams.
"Now godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out." (1 Timothy 6:6-7)
Now you are putting words in my mouth in a most dishonest way. This really is beneath you. Your Jesuit training is showing. How far up your ass are you willing to go to divert honest discussion about this issue? It is you who stated that a sate should have absolute power to legislate what ever activities it allows and restricts irrespective of the U.S. Constitution. By your assertion if a state votes to legalize slavery, or bigamy or bestiality then YOU must not only tolerate it but accept it as well.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Ram, you meds are off tonight and not serving you well. When you can't see that same gender sport is the same thing as same sex sport we best stop this dialogue.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Not according to Jesus.
Would you vote for someone who supported same sex marriage.
So if I get a gun. Put ammunition in it. And pull the trigger splattering your brains all over the place. Then that shouldn't be illegal. Because in the 10 commandments it says thou shall not kill. That would be killing. So according to you that would be a theocracy. We live in a theocracy because murder is illegal.
It was your bucket list of issues not mine. You threw together slavery, bigamy, bestiality and drug use. I found it odd you used those examples trying to prove your point that preventing gay "marriage" is violating civil rights.
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Figure skating pairs have always been one man with one woman. Should the Olympic committee be impelled to allow same sex figure skating? It has been one man and one woman for skating pairs since the beginning. Is that not a good reason to sustain traditional pair skating? And no. I don't take meds but given the hour it may be time for your warm milk and beddie bye. :)
"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." (1 Peter 1:23)
Would you vote for someone who supported same sex marriage. No. But I might vote for someone that supported gay civil union. I am not a one issue voter. Would you vote for someone who supported abortion? What about legalized pot?
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Probably so. But that is no reason that men or women pair skating cannot become an Olympic event. Olympic events come and go. Remember Olympic baseball? And Olympic wrestling may be on the block. Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning? By you logic only those events that were in the Olympics from the beginning should be allowed and no others. Sleep tight.
потому что Бог хочет это тот путь
Seems more honest since they're all gay anyway. Stop forcing those poor women to be their beards-on-ice.
Well, Drudge reminded us yesterday. Dump it already. Why should the primary original Olympic sport from ancient times be a part of these phony modern Olympics? Maybe they'll revive it by going back to full nudity. Or finding a gay wrestling champion to beat the straight wrestlers, like they found the black kid to win the big American golf trophies. And Bruce Jenner, Wheaties champion extraordinaire, is going full she-male now, decades later.
Comments (113 - 194) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestStill not presenting evidence to refute.
Come on there are hundreds of Muslim and atheist sites with specious assertions you could mimic here. Give it a try.
#74. To: SOSO (#66)
Who knows what science and/or God has in store for us?
#75. To: SOSO (#65)
So infertile people are unsocibiologically fit, worthless junk?
#76. To: SOSO (#72)
Is it delusional to think that gays are entitled to the same civil rights as straights? Do you really believe that God commands us to deny gays their due civil rights? If so we do not pray to the same God.
#77. To: redleghunter (#76)
Should men be afforded the same civil rights to become pregnant?
#78. To: VxH (#75)
#79. To: SOSO (#77)
But you didn't answer my question. Do you believe that God commands us to deny gays the same civil rights as the state deems/grants to straights? If not, then what delusion(s) is involved in the state granting gays the same civil right to a state recognized civil union as it does for straights?
#80. To: redleghunter (#79)
It is absurd to apply marriage to a civil right for those who don't qualify to be married.
#81. To: SOSO (#80)
#82. To: A K A Stone, SOSO (#81)
You're [SOSO] doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality. It's really Apple Pie and Justice for all.
#83. To: A K A Stone (#81)
You're doing mental gymnastics in order to try and say that it is ok for the government to impose Sodomite immorality on the nation because it isn't really sodomite immorality.
#84. To: Pridie.Nones, A K A Stone (#82)
The US government has migrated to policies that literally explore additional taxbases............
#85. To: SOSO, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, A K A Stone, liberator (#80)
It is amazing that you cannot grasp this concept in a country where the State has so liberally sanctioned abortion. Have you, I, the Church, or even the opinion of 50%+ of the U.S. people stopped the legalization of abortion?
#86. To: redleghunter (#85)
Do you really think Jesus Christ meant 'rendering to Caesar' means murdered babies? Jesus called for a coin, not a baby.
#87. To: SOSO (#83)
BTW, what is your mental gymnastics that allows you to tolerate legalized abortion in the U.S.?
#88. To: SOSO (#78)
Then please define what you mean by socibiologically fit.
#89. To: redleghunter, GarySpFc, BobCeleste, A K A Stone, liberator (#85)
Any nation devoid of absolute moral standards have failed and will continue to fail. Our Western world has embraced humanism (man is at the center of all things), materialism (what we make or do we worship) and relativism (there are no absolutes only individual particulars). It is the destructive recipe which destroyed previous civilizations.
#90. To: SOSO (#89)
#91. To: redleghunter (#90)
#92. To: VxH (#88)
Homosexual activists have never increased the fitness of the various cultures they've infested.
#93. To: SOSO (#91)
What about if a state passes legislation allowing slavery? Or bigamy? Or beastiality? Or free use of any drug known to man?
#94. To: A K A Stone (#87)
BTW, what is your mental gymnastics that allows you to tolerate legalized abortion in the U.S.?
#95. To: A K A Stone (#86)
The fruit of your labor is not Caesars.
#96. To: redleghunter (#93)
You see homosexual "marriage" in the same categories as the above?
#97. To: SOSO, VxH, Vicomte13, TooConservative, rlk (#92)
Tell that to the U.S. Figure Skating Association:)
#98. To: SOSO (#96)
#99. To: redleghunter (#97)
Should the Winter Olympics committee be forced to accept same sex figure skating pairs?
#100. To: SOSO (#96)
I see the intolerance of homosexuality as being of the same cloth as those other activities.
#101. To: SOSO (#99)
#102. To: redleghunter (#100)
So to you bigamy and bestiality prohibitions are discriminatory and have no place in our body of law?
#103. To: redleghunter (#101)
Like bestiality not the same sport. Those are same gender teams.
#104. To: SOSO (#95)
When Caesar collects taxes on it that part of the your fruit most certainly is his.
#105. To: SOSO (#94)
Note the word I actually used- tolerated - not accepted. Please correct your post to me if you wish to further dialogue.
#106. To: Pridie.Nones (#82)
US Government is not about morality issues
#107. To: SOSO (#102)
Now you are putting words in my mouth in a most dishonest way. This really is beneath you. Your Jesuit training is showing. How far up your ass are you willing to go to divert honest discussion about this issue?
#108. To: SOSO (#103)
#109. To: A K A Stone (#105)
Note the word I actually used- tolerated - not accepted. Please correct your post to me if you wish to further dialogue.
#110. To: redleghunter (#108)
It has been one man and one woman for skating pairs since the beginning. Is that not a good reason to sustain traditional pair skating?
#111. To: redleghunter (#97)
Should the Winter Olympics committee be forced to accept same sex figure skating pairs?
#112. To: SOSO (#110)
(Edited)
Do I need to remind you that marriage was not always one man with just one woman and that it wasn't that way from the beginning?
UPDATE: WORLD'S FIRST THREE-GAY MARRIAGE... And Olympic wrestling may be on the block.
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